As I stated in a thread many months ago Myrta continues to be highly unhappy about the presents I give her.

In the eve of mother's day I was stressed out as I knew she would somehow find fault with the stuff I got. This has been the norm from day one in our marriage, in fact I have old videos from the early 1980's where she is pouting on mother's day or during her birthday.

So once again she complained about everything I gave her and I finally exploded. I have been on the receiving end of this for over 30 years.

She states that if she does not like the presents it simply means that I was not thoughtful and did not pay any attention to what she really wants. I discussed this issue with my four daughters and they all confirmed that it is not easy to determine what to buy for Myrta.

To make things worse I am in the habit of giving her presents on a very regular basis so mother's day presents have little impact.

So I finally asked her what she really wanted for mother's day and she could not come up with anything. That is not surprising because on a daily basis she can buy anything she wants for herself. So I kept asking what was the ideal present for her and she had no idea. In the end she said" "well, I guess a gift certificate". A gift certificate????? Is that romantic??? What is the impact of a gift certificate when she can buy anything she wants at any time?

I am almost 100% certain that this intrinsic unhappiness was the main reason she had an affair.

It's called antidepressants. Your wife is in need of them.

I don't think she is depressed. Furthermore, she is not materialistic or driven by money. For some reason she assumes that every present she receives must be the correct one for her. She can be quite happy with $2.00 earrings if she likes them.

However, if she does not like the gift she takes it very personally. The implication is that the giver did not spend much time shopping or that the giver did not make an effort to determine what is the best gift for her.

She is also unhappy about other issues such as my hobbies. IF I spend too much time on my own she thinks I am neglecting her on purpose.

I think she is.

Well, Stanley, she seems kind of high maintenance. By the way, what did you give her?

My ex used to give me really bad gifts - no thought at all. There are millions of things I like - plants, perfume, bath oil, nice soap. But he would give me something for the dollar store, or even one time, flowers that were completely wilted (they were half price). Even that would not have bothered me, but he always bought very nice things for himself.

Or it could be that her expectations are so high that ANYTHING would be a disappointment. Some folks are triggered by holidays.

Give her the gift of time alone with you -- a special dinner out, a walk outside, etc. What she values may be what cannot be purchased in a store.

Cherishing

Believer:

I give her presents all the time. So I guess a present in an special occasion seems ordinary to her.

The amazing thing is that she gives away no clues about what she might like. The stuff I gave her is not cheap and I had a conference with my daughters about what Myrta wanted for mother's day. No one had a clue.

Then I asked Myrta what would have been the perfect gift for her and she did not have an answer. The best she could do was a "gift certificate".

I truly believe this is an issue of insecure personality. There is more, she never gives me positive feedback about anything I do. There is always a fault here and there. I don't need the approval of anyone for my own happiness, but this is way over the top.

Sometimes she accuses me of not spending enough time with her after I have stroked her hair for one hour. It does not make sense!

I call her from work several times a day. SOme days she never answers the phone and then she accuses me of not calling her and therefore "I do not care for her".

I realize this stuff sounds too goofy to be true, but i am not exaggerating.

On other occasions she may say threatening words as to why she strayed. In other words she will say "that is why it happened".

This constant complaining is very tiring.

JM:

Can you explain why you think she is depressed?

I take her out to eat at least 2-3 times a week (not counting a couple of lunches on her own during the week). So taking her out on Mother's day has no effect----she does it all the time. If I choose a special restaurant she usually finds some fault with the food or will say it was not worth it.

I would give anything to take a stroll to the local park with her, but that is not her style. She has said NO to that in a very consistent manner.

I think she is spoiled!

Depressed people often are very critical and irritable. That may be why.

And it could be FOO issues.

I think I would tell her that you feel hurt when she pouts about a gift and the next holiday you will take her shopping and let HER pick it out. But I suppose that won't do for her either.

jmwc,

Just as a heads up, Stan-Ley is a doc.


Stan-Ley, sorry to see you back here buddy. Is Myrta going down the same path as last time?

And it does seem like you have spoiled her.

I agree, it could be depression. Worth looking into.

ETA: oops, I just read that you are a doc. Well I'm not, so I take back my layman's over-the-internet diagnosis of your W whom I have never even met! It's still MHO though.

Hi Stanley,

Long time no see. I'll give you my very very non-MB response to this. I would cease to give her gifts, she has no clue what a gift is. Oddly, I just had a discussion with my daughter about this very subject concerning a friend of hers who is getting married.

A gift is just that... a gift. Something given as a token of esteem and love. IF someone cannot see that, then quit giving gifts to them. Life is really that simple Stanley.

I don't care if she is depresseed, high as a kite on something, or just plain herself, there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for lack of manners, lack of respect, lack of kindness. She is showing all with her behavior.

If I were you, I would simply tell her: "Myrta, I cannot read minds, I cannot read your mind, given that you do not accept my gifts in the manner they are given, I have decided to cease giving gifts." Leave it at that.

I did some house cleaning for my W early in our marriage, I got a lot of grief because I did not do it to her standards. My response was just what I told you to do. I simply said "I'm deeply sorry I don't meet your standards, hire someone how does, or do it yourself." And in over 30 years I have never done those household chores again, and yes we are still married.

Your problem Stanley is you are not setting your boundaries. If this really bothers you then YOU have to take a stand. IF you are unwilling to take a stand, then deal with it. This is all really YOUR call not Myrta's.

You should have already learned that you cannot buy Myrta happiness. You still try because you seem to think all you have to offer is money and gifts. If that is truly all she wants from you, then you really don't have a W, you simply have another dependent on your tax return.

Stop doing something you cannot do and don't know how to do...make Myrta happy with gifts. You've tried, you have 30 years or so of experience and the data is very clear, very consistent, and is not likely to change. Pay attention to what she is telling you and stop doing something that irriatates her.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

As usual, I think JL hit the nail on the head.

Stanley, yes she is but you either can't, or won't, see it.

Self-centered and selfish, putting something "else" ahead of God.

But since you have not wanted to talk about what being "Surrendered to God" is all about, I will say no more.

Listen to JL, at least he is telling you a "practical realty" in dealing with someone who is NOT surrendered to God.

What was God "interested in" in the OT sacrifices? Was it the gift itself, or the motive of the heart in presenting the gift?

For you, yourself, remember that "resentment kills," as in "is a slow form of suicide." Don't commit suicide.

God bless.

JL, Believer, Cymanca, FH, et al:

Nice to see some of the old faces!

I will say that for many years I have been stressed out during this time of the year. In a span of three weeks I have Mother's day, my anniversary, and Myrta’s birthday. It seems each year I fail to meet the standard.

Last year I had a major blow out and I posted here under a different identity. The situation was identical------if Myrta does not like the gift she assumes I give her no importance.

I get a laugh when people suggest to me things that I do for her on a regular basis when there is no special occasion. Obviously doing these things has no positive effect because I do them all the time. In other words I have set up a very high standard.

Interestingly, Myrta’s mother pouts quite a bit when she gets a present that is not up to her standards. As believer said, maybe there is something to FOO.

I have told Myrta that I am done with the issue of unhappiness related to gifts, however, this is exactly what I told her a year ago. I don’t think people change.

I will post an update on my situation four years post d-day in another thread.

Cymanca: Are you fully divorced?

Sorry, I have been away for a long time.

Stanley, I was actually taught by my parents how to receive gifts. They told me it was rude that if somebody gave me flowers, not to immediately find a vase and put them into fresh water. If a piece of jewellery was offered, I should immediately put it on, go to the mirror and look delighted. If it were perfume or toiletries, then I should open it and sniff it and be knocked out by the delightful fragrance. Mostly, I have tried to do these things and I LOVE to receive presents although I don't get that many really - just the special occasions. Your wife sounds rather ungrateful and spoilt. There is also a lot of joy in giving a gift if you see it graciously received and appreciated. It's pretty insulting to spend time and trouble shopping and researching a gift and then to see somebody 'disappointed' by it.

That is what I do. I cannot understand the concept of being unhappy with a present. If I don't like it is no big deal---after all it is something extra and unexpected.

There have been times when my wife gives me a shirt that i don't quite like, but I still show a great deal of gratitude and emotion about it. Then I politely ask if it is OK to exchange it for another one. If my wife had done that regarding her Mother's day presents I would not be offended. However, she was mad and acting insulted by the gift.

d i t t o

"Dearest lovely wife. My gifts do not please

you. They never have. I am listening to what you have been

saying to me all these years. I will not displease you further

with any future gifts. From this day forward, any

celebration/event/anniversary with you will be marked by time

spent together doing something enjoyable."

- she has repeatedly told you that you suck at buying her gifts - grant her wish - no more gifts !


Pep

I agree, no more!

Hi Stanley.


By default we give ENs as we like to receive them.

You are giving Myrta YOUR EN, not hers.

Its an MB basic principle - find out what Myrtas EN priorities are and meet them instead.

Hi Bob:

Her ENs are admiration, attention, and adoration.

I suspect she interprets the incorrect gift as lack of attention from my part. But, I cannot read minds and she does not know what she wants. If she does not know----how am I suppose to know?

As usual, JL hits the nail on the head! Stan-ley, you are training her to be an ingrate by continually rewarding her for ungrateful behavior. You cheapen your gifts by doing so and that is not lost on her.

See, I think that you want admiration from her, but are going about this the wrong way. When you give her a gift she then feels OBLIGED, at the point of a gun, to show you gratitude and affection. Because she does not FEEL grateful and affectionate [the gifts do not engender that feeling in her], she RESENTS the expectation and feels manipulated. The more gifts my XH gave me, the more I RESENTED HIM. It caused me to feel DISRESPECT for him. But even more than that, I felt manipulated and patronized, like I was being bought in exchange for some affection that I did not feel.

I would have felt affection and admiration for him if I had RESPECTED HIM more. I would have respected him more if he didn't allow me to run over him and REWARD me for doing it. Giving me gifts [multitudes of African violets] did NOT inspire affection in me, it annoyed me. And I suspect it does Myrta too.

Welcome back, Stanley, its good to see you.

Wow, this sure does hit home with me, I have been both the giftee and the gifter.

I can make all kinds of excuses about how bad a gift is, or how thoughtless a holiday is, but if I make a big deal about a holiday or a gift as being the "wrong" one, it tells me I have a pretty high opinion of myself and what I feel I 'deserve'.

Do the people around me treat me the way I feel I deserve? Am I trying to control a situation where I am receiving love and attention the way I want it? And where does that leave the people around me, unspontaneous robots? I have acted very badly about gifts I have received in the past, or that I have been forgotten on Mother's Day or other days. My DH has said to me before..."You're not MY mother." Well, too bad for me...and if I hold onto this resentment and hurt, what does that get me?...more resentment and hurt and a feeling like I am justified in feeling angry, sad, betrayed towards the people around me....

HOW UTTERLY SELFISH OF ME!

And I have not felt real joy and love in my life until I've been ready to let things go, to let people be and show love to me. And when I act more loving towards them, do they act more loving towards me.

When caught in this box of "everyone owes me", she will only see what other people are doing *to* her, and not how her actions are creating an environment of loneliness.




Now as the gifter who deals with someone who is notorious about not accepting gifts, putting on a veiled front they like it...

I have chosen to give out of what I would like to give them, if they accept it or not, that is all on them, I try not to take back from them any empotions or thoughts that their acceptance or unacceptance of a gift has anythingt o do with me...meaning, their behavior after receiving a gift is all about them, and I choose to give a gift that is all about me...

My MIL is notorious for not liking a gift, or asking for something very specific...and if she doesn't get it, then she is just ho-hum about her gifts. I do NOT put myself out there and ask her if she likes something, or if she could use it...a gift is what it is, if she chooses to trash it afterwards, I don't take it to heart...

Part of this also is it is not my job to please her, I will honor her, pay attention to her, but don't go out of my way for her. if I see something that reminds me of her or I think she will like, I get it, but will not rack my brain thinking of ideas...

Hi ML:

There is a well-known story about a street beggar who works the same corner every day. Every morning around 9:00 Am a very aristocratic man passes by and gives him $5.00.

This goes on for many months and the beggar and the so-called aristocrat become quite familiar with each other. This familiarity and frequency sometimes causes the beggar to feel humbled or humiliated by the generosity of the aristocrat. And this is the onset of RESENTMENT.

One day the beggar realizes that the aristocrat is probably very wealthy and instead of being grateful for the $5.00 he gets everyday he becomes more resentful. Now the beggar dislikes his patron because he should be getting $10.00 a day rather than $5.00 a day. This is the complexity of human behavior as it relates to receiving a gift.

I know quite well my wife resents me. After many years of marriage she would call me “The Perfect One” in a very sarcastic manner because I had great parents.

In my effort to make sure my wife was someone important I made sure she managed all the money I earned. I was happy with having $20.00 in my pocket for lunch. She did all the banking and purchased everything. She hired contractors, enrolled the kid in piano lessons, arranged all vacations, etc. I was only involved in the purchase of a car or a home. She admitted she resented my involvement in these huge decisions.

In an effort to gain the admiration of her parents my wife Myrta routinely gave monetary gifts to them. I was never consulted about this and I did not care. As you can guess----Myrta’s parents resent the quantity of the monetary gifts and they would like to receive more money. This is highly unusual for folks in their late 80s.

It is hard to accept, but Myrta resents me a lot. In fact she had to resent me to give herself permission to stray.
Myrta’s parents also resent her. They would like more cash. The more money she gives them, the more they want and the more they resent her.

Human behavior can be quite bizarre!

Is this the issue of my wife?

Why do some people feel that way?

If I receive a very lavish gift I am very uncomfortable. I rather buy what I want with my own money.

If the gift is modest I still feel uneasy as I would rather get nothing.

Can you explain?

p.s. to my shame, I used to nit pick and find fault in my H's gifts so I would feel less OBLIGED to show my gratitude.

With me, it was not a matter of feeling I deserved MORE, but a matter of feeling OBLIGED to express certain feelings I did not want to express. His gift giving was basically ANNOYING behavior that amounted to huge lovebank withdrawals.

ML:

Could that be the case?


Do you think my wife does not want the gifts because she feels obligated?

Obligated to what? I don't expect much; I am not needy or high maintenance. Unless, she feels she does not deserve what she has.


Regarding your H:

I suspect there was something more than gift giving. For example I know a narcissistic manager that treats his employees like crap and then buys them expensive gifts. This confuses the employees and they develop conflicting feelings about the narcissistic boss from hell.


BTW, there is another twist to this:

In the old days if I gave my wife a very expensive gift she would be grateful, but return the gift next day because she felt it was simply too much. In other words she also has the “I don’t deserve that much side.”

You talk about being obligated to pay attention or gratitude to me. I believe this is probably not the case. When she was having the affair she still wanted me to show sexual interest in her even though she had no desire to be with me. However, she needed to know I still wanted her. It is all about the sensation of being wanted—-----it has nothing to do with her feelings for me.

How did you resolve the issue with the gifts from your H?

Yes I am. Divorce granted to WW 11-9-06. Property division judgement 3-12-08.

I have battled with the notion that I feel I am better than other people, and that I know what is best in all situations.

I would offer to you it is not that she feels unworthy (although there is an element of that deep down that started this) but that she wants to feel better than others.

You can NEVER please her because no one will ever treat her to her high expectations, that are to her, perfect...

I beleive she is sarcastically saying to you that you are perfect, because she'd like to beleive she truly has become perfect, and how dare you think otherwise...

But...in the second part of my story...this is not about her...this is about how this affects you. There is guilt and shame that you are not good enough or not doing enough for her...that you want to be a hero, and she won't let you...how can you get beyond this cycle you both have set up?

Obligated to show unfelt gratitude. My H did it to pimp some attention and admiration from me. I felt manipulated.



The "MORE" was my H's neediness. I felt like he was sucking me dry with his incessant bids for attention. The gift giving felt like more of that.



Well, that makes perfect sense. She needs to be reminded that she is desirable and admired, but maybe she doesn't want to feel OBLIGED or FORCED to show you gratitude for expensive presents.


He left me for a woman who adores his stupid African violets. And goes huntin' with him. And "ties ONE ON" drinkin' Jumbo BUDS. And chain smokes little brown cigars!

Strangely, I ADORE every present my current H gives me. He can give me something I HATED from my XH and I treasure it. The difference is that I don't feel like I am being patronized.

Hi Stan.

Yes, this is not your first post on this. I don't think it will be your last.

You know Myrta is spoiled. No need to over-analyze her. The signal has been coming through loud and clear from the beginning. Even in her posts.

But you like spoiling her. It is part of a game between the two of you.

So stop it.

JL has it right. Just stop giving her presents of any kind or at any time. She will, after a suitable withdrawal period, feel much better.

You however will have a lot longer withdrawal period. You seem to need to buy her affection in some way. Stick it though to the end and you will feel a lot better in the long run too.

Psychologists/psychiatrists have a word for it. The taking expensive gifts back thing. Can’t remember off the top of my head. But it has to do with manipulation and maintaining a superior position of power in the relationship. Has nothing to do with the actual expense.

With prayers,

yes, I know I was a b*tch. I will be the first to admit it.

Well just gotta say i've got my own little story too.

My W lost the diamond out of her engagement ring about seven years ago and was heartbroken about it.

thus, at christmas time I went out and bought her a new diamong ring to replace the old. It cost me about 20 overtime shifts to pay for it( 16 hour days).

3 years later she lost the entire diamond ring.

She never truly understood how important that ring was to me. In the meantime, she has also LOST our wedding ring from 38 years ago.

I'm at the very least puzzled!

But I don't even bother trying to figure these things out anymore.

I don't care!

All Blessings,
Jerry

edited to say, I've still got mine!

Dr Laura said the funniest thing to this lady today on her show. The lady was talking about how ungrateful and bratty she is to her boyfriend. Dr Laura said "you need someone who is man enough to put you in your place!"

That's exactly what I needed back then.

Hello Stanley,

What have you been doing with yourself these many months? I see you are back for help as this topic has come up before.

May I ask you a question?

What gives Myrta her greatest pleasures?

When is she happiest?

What makes her smile?

The answers to those questions will provide you with the answer you seek and best of all you may not even need to go to the store.

Let me tell you a little story. Mrs. G is from a large family, 10 brothers and sisters. Consequently time with her mother has always been scarce. Her father died on Christmas day in 2004 and her mother struggled. As her brothers and sisters all came to their mother’s side Mrs. G looked for ways to lend some comfort. Alas, she was a small voice in the company of her domineering siblings. So, when the time came for our Italy vacation I asked Mrs. G if she would like to extend the invite to her mother. Well, her eyes lit up at my suggestion of a selfless act (it wasn’t really) and to make a long story short, Mrs. G was able to bring her mother to St. Peter’s Square for a Sunday mass with the new Pope where she cried like a baby. It was a lifetime event for my mother-in-law and for Mrs. G too, not because of the Pope but because of what it meant to her Mom.

Mrs. G will tell anyone who asks that that trip was the best gift she has EVER received from me. Don’t tell anyone, but turned out to be quite a gift to me too. The greatest pleasures in life come from the simplest of things.

Stanley, perhaps you have already given Myrta gifts of a similar nature or perhaps you will soon. Stanley, I know how wonderful it is to give something to someone who derives great pleasure from your gesture. It makes you feel like a million bucks. When it all blows-up, well, it just doesn’t feel good.

JL’s suggestion should most certainly be considered. Myrta’s criticism of your efforts is off-base to be sure but I suspect that Myrta does not understand the nature of what her disapproval causes. I think you once told me that the Spanish can be a bit fixed in their thoughts.

You’ll get through this one Stanley.

Mr. G

Thanks to all for the kind words:

As you know I became quite upset regarding the rejection of the Mother's Day gifts. Now----all of a sudden Myrta has become quite lovy dovey. I am not sure how to explain this, but she has changed her tune and I didn't even try to sweeten my position. As JL suggested I told her that I was done with the idea of buying stuff for her.

It seems that she responds if I make a very strong point. In the past I have not done this so I did not appear to be controlling. Therefore, she is probably spoiled and that is my fault.

Admiration is everything for Myrta. I even compliment her cooking on a daily basis.

She is happy when she is seen as a sexual object by other men.

She smiles when she knows she is desired and needed.

The problem with someone that seeks admiration like that is that admiration coming from the H is not as powerful as admiration coming from a stranger.

Could that be classified as narcissistic behavior?

Hello. I agree with that 100% and suspect that is one of the biggest factors in becoming WS. How can a spouse meet that kind of EN???

Sometimes when I watch my FWW putting on makeup and I'm in the room I feel like I'm the last person she is applying it for even though we are inching forward more each day. Course, there is no way I can tell her something like that I don't think.

It cannot be done. If the wife strays it probably has to do with an intrinsic problem in that spouse. The best H in the planet cannot overcome that.


I can tell you without any doubt that most women in the planet would classify me as a great H. Nevertheless, I could not avoid the infidelity of my wife.

Since admiration is my wife's top EN - I find this discussion very interesting.



Need to think on this more before writing out some thoughts

If you examine wayward spouses you will almost always find someone that craves admiration and attention. For these folks external validation is everything.

I give my wife admiration 24/7 and I can see how she glows with every word of praise and adoration. Interestingly there is no tolerance to the admiration.

However, if the admiration comes from a source other than the H the effect is even greater.

In theory the only way these folks can avoid an affair is by avoiding any situation that can present someone that provides the admiration. Otherwise, they will sooner or later stray, the admiration is simply too powerful. Most clever OMs know this trick and they can spot a woman that falls for admiration a mile away.

The need of admiration is most certainly an emotional need that almost all of us have to some degree, even you and me. That and $3.95 will get you a Caramel Macchiato from Starbucks.


That is because admiration from our spouse is an expected response in a healthy relationship. It is taken for granted. When that admiration is confirmed by an outside source it is immediately effective and flattering. It is how that admiration is processed that makes all the difference. If Myrta acts on outside compliments by others then that is where problems can develop. Is she acting on this?


So the real trick is to learn to accept the complements of others without strings attached. I think that is very easily accomplished once it is learned that such “strings” have potentially disastrous consequences. That is the firsthand lesson that a wayward spouse learns (it is something that I learned also). Of course, some never learn that lesson but Myrta is certainly not in the category even though you remain a bit guarded (it’s OK to remain a bit guarded so long as you don’t obsess with it).

Because your wife is physically attractive others have likely complimented her on her appearance throughout her lifetime with you. There is no reason that should or will change. There is no reason why she cannot accept those compliments without putting herself in harms way. She knows “things” now that she did not know prior to her affair. What’s more, her revised value system places great importance on the marriage, on herself and on you. Like I said, she’s learned “things”. It is clear from her many months of comments that she values her integrity with you and her own self worth. Coupled with appropriate boundaries she has erected a formidable wall against the possibility of inappropriate behavior.

Mr. G

Hiya Stanley, you too Myrta if you are reading this.

My 2cents worth; could she be bored?

You have your Doc stuff, which can be all consuming.

She has a life that is a reflection of yours. Resentment?

Do . . . something . . . different

Taking her out to eat is old news. Said this before to you and that is give her your time. Hot dogs, sauerkraut and an unexpected nooner might do the trick

It seems to me that female native Spanish speakers appreciate knowing who El Jefe is

All the best - and I still remember the words of wisdom you and Myrta shared with me when I was serious walking wounded.

Larry178

Mr G:

Your words are on the money.

However, we cannot forget that the folks prone to affairs are basically addicts and any addict can fall of the wagon if the temptation is too big.

Some days Myrta comes home quite happy and smiling like crazy. Quite often this story is that some young stud was coming on too her an that sort of thing made her day.

All of us like flattery, but for some folks flattery is everything.


Larry:

I will have to see how your story ended. I left the board before your issue was resolved.

BTW, today I had a very busy day at work and forgot to call Myrta at home (as I usually do). She called me and was upset because I am neglecting her. She expects several calls a day. I don't think she is pressed for me or that she is madly in love. However, in the aftermath of the affair she has developed a sense of insecurity that is not normal. Maybe that is why she thinks badly of me if she gets the wrong present.

OK, for my anniversary I tried the minimalist approach (as suggested by everybody).

I point blank asked Myrta to tell me what she wanted. I did not want to guess anymore. I gave her one gift and nothing else. We had a nice dinner on the eve of the anniversary and stayed in a resort for the three day weekend.

We had another HUGE blowout.

Now I feel guilty for not doing more.

A good friend of mine had the same problem and now he does not do special occassions anymore because there was always a lot of resentment around those special days.

I am lost.

Hi Stanley

I had to think laterally. Squid actually does like gifts but not so much as she likes me to do domestic support ( which I despise).

So for her birthday I stripped, replastered, refinished and repainted our hall, stairs and landing. ( its a pretty big job - our hall stairs and landing are three storeys, and wide with stained glass windows and hemlock spindles) It took me a week's vacation plus three weeks of weekends and evenings. I hated it but Squid absolutely loved it.

It is easier for me to but gifts but there is no doubt that my DS meant more to Squid.

Does Myrta have a high EN that you hate to meet ?

Bob:

Women are very complicated and I am not good at deciphering the complexity of the issue. For one---------Myrta believes that it is normal to be dissatisfied. As far as she is concerned that is par for the course.

Myrta believes that I do not spend enough time in determining what is best for a special occasion. I accept that I tend to do many things at the last minute. For Myrta a gift has more meaning if I purchase the gift a month before the actual date. That shows that I have been thinking about it for a long time. If she looks at the receipt date and sees I got her a present the same day of the event she is disappointed.

Myrta pays attention to the effort I put in doing these things. For example:

For Mother’s Day I went shopping with my daughter and in one store they were giving away custom made Mother’s Day Greeting cards with a photo. So I took a photo with my daughter and wrote a message in the card telling her how great she was and how much I loved her. Initially Myrta loved the card, but them found out I got it for free. In other words, it was a very cute card, but I did not have to put much effort into it since it was the idea of the storeowner and the cards were free.

Bob:

Myrta needs to see there is effort and that would be the thing that validates the holiday. That is why gifts don’t have an effect. Going to the store and buying something seems too easy. Particularly if the store is next door to where I work. That in itself implies that it was even easier for me.

I feel I have no confidence in what I do. I would love to be able to do stuff without having someone else passing judgment on what I do.


BTW, working in the house like that would be fun for me. But Myrta does not like that sort of thing.

Stan-ley,

Have you considered that you might be married to Scarlett O Hara? A woman who is impossible to please and is constantly wanting the wrong man until she can have him, and her husband is done with her spoiled little rich girl antics...

Just a thought - Myrta may be impossible to please and you may have to just be done before she comes around - if she does.

Kayla:

My wife is a wonderful woman and she demands very little.

As I said before, she would be happy with a 10 cent gift if she perceives there was romance and a lot of attention to detail.

She is not vain and or frivolous and is a magnificent wife. The only glitch is the issue of the special occasions. That coupled with my laid back approach to these things causes a problem.

She is not materialistic or worried about the high end. She is quite simple for most other things, but this issue is quite tricky for me. In the end I see myself performing under un-natural circumstances and cannot do what I would probably want to do. Sometimes I feel I have no ideas to celebrate these specials dates.

"Have you considered that you might be married to Scarlett O Hara? A woman who is impossible to please and is constantly wanting the wrong man until she can have him, and her husband is done with her spoiled little rich girl antics..."




Nope, I am not Scarlett O Hara. I am just a regular wife-woman that would like to see some real effort from my husband to me.

We went away for the weekend, because I booked a resort so my husband could play golf with a friend of his. I booked the hotel and his "tee time" too.


We have been married for 35 years, have 5 children and 1 granddaughter.

My anniversary gift: the day before he asked me to tell him what I wanted and I told him .

He bought me 1 of the things that I wanted and I liked it.

He gave it to me unwrapped, with no card. Since we had been married I have always looked forward to a meaninful card, but that is his new thing after DD, no card at all. And it hurts me a lot. I know I am an awful [censored] that does not appreciate his wonderful gifts....but still I think I deserve a bit more than a gift that he had in his gym bag unwrapped.

I have NEVER requested expensive gifts from my husband. I Just want him to think what I would really like. Just like I do with him.

I am such a bad wife-woman, that deserves to be thrown to the curve or gutter, because I would like my husband to show some detail romance in our relationship. Yes, I do deserve that he serves me divorce papers, because I am really bad and don't appreciate all his efforts.

The fact that he came back to MB to talk about this, is really not nice. It hurt a lot to know that he came back to whine about this dumb "problem".

My EN are not hard to be met at all....I like him to stroke my hair, watch TV once in a while with me. I like him to call me, from work, yes,,,several times a day. And I do like when HE finds me attractive, I am not so vain that I am just seeking Other men to find me attractive. I want my Husband to find me desirable and I like to hear it from HIM.

You know what?

In the old days before d-day this would not have been such a big deal.

I suspect (MArEle, AKA as Myrta) feels that every time I don't pay attention I must be doing that because I am a resentful H.

The truth of the matter is that I don't think about the affair a whole lot. There was a time when the affair was on my mind, but now I can go for days and not think about it at all. In other words I have reached the so-called nirvana that many BHs seek.

I asked my wife about what she wanted for at least 7-10 days before the anniversary day and she managed to give me an answer the day before we were going away. That Friday before the three-day weekend was a very congested day on the road. I drove for 90 minutes to get her present. The present was wrapped in typical fashion by the staff of jewelry store. However, I understand it would have been more meaningful if I had purchased gift-wrapping paper, scissors, scotch tape, etc to do my own wrapping.

I am not big on cards and I usually say what I have to say using my own mouth. I will admit that my wife is the opposite and will say things in the card that she does not say person to person.

I sense that any time I am quite relaxed and calm in the marriage MarEle becomes distressed. She sees this relaxation as an indication that I don’t care for her.

Have you read The Five Love Languages? One of the love languages is receiving gifts. I think this book would help you both understand this problem.

Also, my H never likes the gifts I give him, even if I get him exactly what he told me he wanted, he finds a way to complain. I have recently discovered while talking to his sister that this is what they saw growing up. Their mom could never be satisfied, so they finally go to the point where they stopped trying and just bought her anything they felt like.

On the other side of it, my H used to buy me things and then get mad that I didn't like them, well he would buy me jewelry and I don't wear jewelry, it's just not me. So I would get mad that he didn't know me well enough to get me something I would like. I have now learned that he really truely appreciates it when I give him some suggestions. About a month befor my last birthday I mentioned that I would like an Ipod. I didn't say that I wanted it for my bday, just that it would be cool to have. Well he bought me a pink Ipod, my favorite color. He really does know me, but also needs a little help with gift ideas.

Gift giving is so hard these days because if we want something we just usually go and buy it for ourselves.

Also, our anniversary is coming up June 3rd and while I would have loved for my H to plan something romantic I know that he wouldn't and then I would be disappointed. So I am trying something different this year, I booked a day for us at a Hot Springs resort and scheduled a couples massage for us. My H is now looking forward to our anniversary instead of being stressed out about what to do and I get to enjoy exactly what I want because I booked it.

My point is that I understand both sides and I am just offering some suggestions of what has helped for my H and me. The Five Love Languages is a great book and offers some very simple yet effective ways to overcome problems such as this.

I won't pretend to have all the answers but I have learned a few things over the years about the differences between men and women. The biggest ones seem to be:

1. Men don't take hints, even when applied with a 2x4. Men only get it when it is explained to them in explicit language. Leave no detail out, no matter how obvious it may seem.

2. Women thrive off hints, alternative meanings and innuendos. Everything "means" something else no matter how obscure and unrelated.

Sorry if that sounds sexist but in my experience, and the experiences of all my friends and colleagues with whom I've had these discussions about, it is true. I remember wishing for that special "thoughtful" gift or gester that never came. I also remember leaving hints less subtle than sky writing for these things. Same thing used to happen to my mom when I was growing up. My DS who is now an adult does the EXACT SAME THING.

As for a solution, nobody I know has found a way to change this. It is what it is. But those who have put this issue behind them have given up the silly romantic notions and just spelled out LITERALLY what it is they want and been pleased to get it. And then laugh a little when you forget to mention a detail or 2 and see what he comes up with instead. It's much healthier than resentment.

But I will address this one point Stan-ley:


Here is something that you KNOW. It's actually an illustration of what I said above about obvious details not mentioned. Your W told you what she wanted, but she didn't specify this particular occassion to wrap it and get a card. So I'll explain for you: from now on, every gift you buy should be wrapped with occassion-appropriate wrapping and be accompanied by a card with a nice sentiment inside that reflects both the occassion and how you feel about her. By occassion-appropriate, I mean that birthday gifts must not be wrapped in Christmas paper, Valentines gifts should not be wrapped in Mother's day paper and so on. Same for the cards - make sure the card matches the occassion.

Clear as mud?

Hmm... do you normally take that kind of approach when trying to resolve an issue about your relationship that's troubling your H?



If you think it's "not really nice" that he came here to talk about this issue, then perhaps you should examine why is it that he found himself choosing to come here to discuss it in the first place. Did he try to discuss this particular problem with you first? What was the outcome of that discussion? Do you believe that you are making it safe for him to discuss these types of issues with you?

My wife grew up seeing the same things. In fact, my wife has experienced this form of rejection from her own mother for many years. I will also admit that it is a trait that is very common everywhere you go. It seems that many folks out there are very hard to please.

The problem is that I am one of those who is happy with anything I get. In fact, many times I would rather get nothing. I put very little weight to the impact of a gift. Nevertheless, I will admit that receiving a gift from someone that was able to read my mind can be rewarding. It is also easy to see why that is perceived as a sign of caring.

My wife is very tricky because she has no materialistic ambition of any kind. As I said she can be happy with anything quite cheap if the present meets the standard of romance.

The problem I have is that I don’t perform very well in that gift-giving scenario because I have failed many times. In other words I tend to under-perform under pressure.

That is on the money.

I suspect anything I say or do is taken as resentment for the affair. That is very far from the truth, however, that may be her perception.

Just because there are a number of things about this thread that bother me, I'm back.

First of all, I don't care what your ENs are or whether they are met more easily within or outside the M, and affair is not an option. Sure it feels good to be admired by someone other than your spouse, but flattering comments and other forms of admiration are NOT invitations to the bedroom! How is this any different than someone who likes recreation companionship so they play tennis or golf with their same-sex friend once a week? Does that entitle them to have an affair?? Absolutely NOT. Really, the only ENs that are exclusive to marriage are SF and affection. Not saying that's all that should be fulfilled by your spouse but most of the others can be and are met to some degree through other types of relationships with friends and family. We do not live in bubbles and nowhere on this or any other marriage site will you ever find advise telling you to exclusively relate ONLY to your spouse and shut yourself off from the world. No.

Stan-ley, I'm sensing some serious resentment from both you and your W. Serious resentment. Some of it is obviously fairly deep seeded and perhaps the 2 of you should seek counselling to try to resolve some of your communication issues (I'm talking here about the whole gift thing). But some of it does seem to be about the A. Stan-ley, you are perfectly entitled to feel resentment about the A. That was a terrible thing she did. Now it appears that either she is manipulating you by making you feel guilty about your resentment OR you are starting to use this as an excuse for your other problems. Or both? Whatever it is, you both have communication issues and you are both only telling one side of the story. I found it telling that you quoted the part of my post dealing with women's communication shortfalls and identified this with your W, but didn't comment on how you have essentially personified men's communication shortfalls. Are you trying to blame her? Or are you trying to twist your feelings away from affair-resentment and making this new? You guys need to figure this out. Right now I see a downward spiral that you could put a stop to.

Tabby:

I am four years out and the pain actually got much better at two years. I don't think about the affair that often. I try my best to function normally.

It is possible that healing from an affair is more difficult for the person that strayed. Maybe that is why all gift-giving actions are taken in the context of the affair.

I tend to be happy on my own and I believe I have done a lot of healing. I am generally quite happy with life and have no stress with my wife other than this one. I must tell you that I have my wife on pre-affair video in the 1980s during her birthday and she is not a happy camper. Having very high expectations and then feeling disappointed also occurred before d-day.

I also admit that I am not very good at organizing romantic scenarios. However, I hold hands with my wife if I walk with her anywhere in the planet. I compliment her on a daily basis, and she was always the center of my life. I always come home after work and don’t travel a whole lot so I am not away from her. I have told her for more than 30 years that I adore the concept of going to bed with her every night.

Despite everything she had an affair. In the end only she knows why, but I suspect the cause was intrinsic to her and there was nothing I could do (or any other man) to prevent that. I feel good about myself and have no need to resent my wife. One of the 1st things I learned from JL four years ago was that resentment is poison.

I suspect that my wife thinks that my happiness is a manifestation of not caring from her. OTOH, if I am somber and in pain from the affair then it means I must care for her.

I do resent the constant rejection of my efforts during the times when we celebrate birthdates, Mother’s Day, and the anniversary.

So it is not at all about the gifts. On a very deep level your wife does not feel lovable, and she needs to know that you love her, she needs to FEEL it and it makes her feel lovable when she does.

This is the kind of self-esteem that if we didn't get from loving parents, is very, very difficult to get later in life.

Because the gifts cause such pain for you both, why don't you make an agreement to not give gifts anymore, as everyone has already said.

Myrta, what if the money spent on gifts were donated to a favorite charity of yours?

What if on those special occasions you both, together, chose to go someplace or do something you both really like to do, TOGETHER. NO gifts, just a really great weekend, or activity together. Dance lessons is something I really would like my husband to do with me. That would be more fun than any material gift.

The undivided time you spend together would evoke those romantic, cared about feelings that Myrta wants and give you Stanley, an opportunity to provide them.

I think this is about Myrta's (sorry forgot to look at the spelling for your new name, hope you don't mind "Myrta" )EN of affection, and how she likes to have that need met...It sounds as though she has been pretty specific, though her delivery of the specifics come in the form of angry outburts, which are lovebusters...Obviously not good...

I think it's important to remember that Dr. Harley says that COMPLAINTS in a marriage are GOOD...CRITICISM is what is bad...Complaints let us know if we are meeting the needs of the other in the way that they like them met...THAT is IMPORTANT...

Stanley, I hear you saying that you feel like you will fail because you have failed in the past and the pressure that that creates impedes you...

What if you both were to agree to wipe the slate clean from this point forward...That you Stanley want to be Myrta's greatest source of pleasure and therefore you will put forth giant effort in meeting this affection need in the way that she'd like it met...How about starting to plan NOW for the next occasion? And Myrta, could you agree that if he does this and you are able to see that he put forth effort in planning that you will give him CREDIT for his efforts and not lovebust him if it's not the "perfect" gift? Could you agree that him TRYING to meet that need, is, in and of itself, meeting that need?

I do understand gift giving as affection, as it's a need of mine too, though the wrapping and time is not as important to me-(doesn't mean that Myrta is wrong, just that she and I are different there)...One of the sweetest gifts that Mr. W ever gave me was a book that I had mentioned wanting to read in passing-I didn't even think he'd heard me-I certainly wasn't hinting for him to find it-it was just an off the cuff comment...It was out of print...He went to a used bookstore (he may have gone to a couple of them) and found a beat up and battered copy for me and wrapped it...I was stunned and VERY touched...Hmmmm, I think it's been a while since I've mentioned that...I think I'll make a point of thanking him again...

Mrs. W

Myrta, Squid is very similar to you in this respect. She values how much effort a gift is more than how appropriate, nice or costly it is. It also has to demonstrate that I have a unique and psychic knowledge of her desires too however !

Every gift becomes a trial of whether I love her enough to spend a lot of time doing something I hate, and whether I psychicly know better than she does what she wants.

There are a couple of reasons why that is hard for me Myrta. First amongst them is that I am in NO WAY a gift person. I do not desire gifts, and I am a little embarrassed to receive them in fact. This means perhaps that Squid cannot envisage how difficult meeting her gift-effort requirements are for me. SHE chooses gifts for me and friends with incredible insight, and expends effort and research with all the joy of a kid in a candy store. She cannot comprehend that I am completely different.

However, over the years I have been known to come up with gifts that have surprised and delighted her :

Her first ever car: an original Mini , a set of framed, processed family photos from her own family, training for her own business, right up to a shooting star and a custom-made diamond wedding band from Vegas ten months after d-day.

They were successes !

However...I've been doing this Christmas, anniversary, mothers day and birthday for TWENTY TWO YEARS. I am fresh out of ideas, and have been for a few years now. I am starting to repeat.

Squid DOES sulk a bit, and I think this is incredibly unfair.

Please know Myrta that Stanley may not be being lazy or valuing you low because he buys you an "unimaginative" gift, he may be like me: out of inspiration and finds it alien to do this anyway.

Just my experience.

Mrs W:

You once said that your favorite EN was admiration. I believe all of us like that EN, but it is probably a risk factor for infidelity for both men and women.

You are a remorseful FWW and perhaps you can answer this question:

Pre-affair Myrta probably had a baseline need for affection and admiration that was relatively high. Therefore, this lead to the affair.

Once the affair is over this EN is still there-----no doubt.

It is possible that this EN is now much greater?

To the point that it becomes the center of one‘s existence?

Can this EN caused anxiety and anger if not met properly?


I believe the great need for admiration is rooted in the need to obtain external validation and I can see how this can become much more acute following d-day and recovery.


I read somewhere that some FWS have a hell of a time in recovery because they feel guilty at all times and cannot put the affair behind as easily as the BS.

On top of that I have five kids that do not know about the affair and they constantly preach against infidelity at dinnertime. Sometimes they put down infidelity so much that I wonder if they suspect something. It must be terrible for Myrta to sit there and hear her daughters say nasty things about wayward spouses.

I think that Myrta is struggling with this.

Over the last couple of week Myrta asked me if I would get married to her knowing what I know now. In other words would anyone get married to a spouse that is surely to cheat during the marriage? These are difficult issues and I can see the fact that she may have a struggle.

Bob:

I am amazed about how you and I think alike regarding the issue of gifts.

It seems the world is divided among those that crave gifts and those that do not want them.

In my case I do not like others to buy me dinner. If we go out with another couple I rather pay. I certainly see no glory in having the other couple pay for the bill. To me that is highly embarrassing.

My parents were like me. They never wanted anything material from my part. OTOH, Myrta’s mom craves monetary gifts at her advanced age of 89. And she will always be disappointed no matter how large the sum of cash she receives.


Regarding ideas:

Been there done that. I have been buying gifts for a lifetime and run out of ideas.

Myrta also runs out of ideas. In the last few years I have received enough golf shirts to last for an eternity. She also gives me golf shoes before my current ones wear out. So I have four pairs of golf shoes. And that is nice because I can rotate them.

I have a friend that does not do gifts anymore with his wife.

OTOH, I am happy with anything. Since I always expect nothing anything I get is glorious.

In my case it is CD compilations with "Dad-rock" on like Boston, Blue Oyster Cult and Queen on !

I actually DON'T fear the reaper any more !

I DO appreciate the thought, and I am not ungrateful but ...well...ya know.

Squid actually bought me pet mice for one birthday... she was SO EXCITED by this gift that she was certain I would adore....erm..

Yes Stanley I did tell you that admiration was a top need of mine...It still is, but you know what, it's no longer an unhealthy need of mine...

I'm not sure that I can explain that as well as I'd like to, but I'll try...I am more comfortable being ME is the crux of it...Mr. W's satisfaction/admiration of me is enough now...I am enough now...Some of this I owe to MelodyLane, who told me over and over that the only opinion that truly mattered was the one of "the lady in the mirror"...Much of it I owe to Mr. W who has always told me that I was beautiful, smart, funny etc...MB helped me to start believing him...to understand how disrespectful that it was not to (Thanks JL)...The biggest reason for me though is God...Mr. W and I started going to an incredible church...We've both become so much closer in our walk with God-hard to put into words really...A particular message really hit home for me one Sunday morning...The pastor was quoting the scripture that says that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made"...He talked about all the stuff we do to try and make ourselves more appealing...It just hit me, "I am enough, because God says that I am"...That is all the validation that I need-it had always been there, I just didn't get it...It was profound for me...I cried like a baby during the entire message...I felt like the pastor was speaking to ME...

So now admiration is a healthy need for me...I realize to get it that I must do admirable things...to get it any other way, isn't true admiration, but false ego stroking...I don't want that...that isn't real...

And yanno, I'd think Myrta would want your kids to have that opinion of adultery...I know that we sure teach our dd8 what a horrible thing it is, and she doesn't yet know of my affair...she was only 5 when it happened and it didn't get to a place where she had to be told (long distance rather short lived affair)...We do plan on telling her someday when she is older in hopes that it will show her how to avoid it and teach her how when you do make horrible choices in life what you must do to fix them...

I can imagine the guilt would eat at Myrta and I'm surprised that she doesn't wish to share with them...That would be a very hard place to be...

Mrs. W

And did this work out for him (his marriage)?

If gifts caused all the pain they seem to cause to you two, I can't understand why you haven't done away with them either.

Did you see my post with my idea of spending time together instead of gifts, Stanley and Myrta?

I don't attach being loved to recieving gifts either, so even reading Mrs. W say it is a need of hers, is still hard for me to understand as well.

We teach our children the joy of gift giving. The joy, I thought, was supposed to be in the giving, not the getting.

This is hard for me to understand, not that I have to understand it. (Mrs. W. and Myrta, no offense to you)

I didn't relate very well to "The Five Love Languages" either though, and a lot of people had an eye opening relevation with that book.

I look forward to Mrs. W's respons to this, but I don't believe that this or any EN is a greater risk factor to lead to an affair. It may require more effort to meet, and certainly one can receive admiration from a total stranger without leading to an affair. In some circumstances, flattering comments are expected out of good manners for crying out loud!

ENs not being met are only part of why someone has an affair. There is also a lack of boundaries, opportunity and other issues (addictiveness etc.). While it's admirable that you strive so hard to meet your W's ENs (see - admiration from a total stranger), it's up to her to do the rest (set boundaries etc). Could her self esteem issues be threatening her boundaries?

Again, we have ENs are met all over the place outside the M including among friends, work, career, family - all the time. Not SF, and probably very little affection (perhaps among family and close friends but certainly nothing that resembles marriage). But all kinds of others including admiration.

One could pick a different EN, say conversation. If WS isn't getting this need met at home (BS just sits and watches football all night, doesn't want to talk), this doesn't justify an affair. Why can't WS call up one of his/her friends and chat? If someone at the office starts filling this need, does that mean he/she should jump in the sack with him? Come on! How many enjoyable conversations have you had at coffe break before? Unless you hate your job, probably tons and NONE of them even remotely suggested the possibility of an affair. That is, if you have your own personal boundaries.

I'm definitely not suggesting to stop trying to meet these ENs or even that they are easy ones to meet. But I also don't think just because it's one particular need it makes a WS any more at risk. They are at risk because they allowed themselves to be at risk, plain and simple.

Bob:

Some guys get the same old tie every six months and never complain.

I have another one that makes me think Myrta appreciates the effort more than the actual gift:

I have given her stuff that causes her to be nauseated.

I once gave her a blouse that she hated with all her soul. The store was next to my office and I got the blouse on my way home. She assumed I walked into the store and purchased the 1st thing I saw and was out of there is two minutes.

For the next six months that blouse became Myrta's favorite and she used it MANY times. To the point that it became a joke and I would remind Myrta all the time how much she hated my gift. Nevertheless she wore down that blouse. But, there is more, At the onset one of her complaints was that the blouse was not her style. Now, two years later she has a closet of blouses in that style---------all purchased by her.

I must have done something right!

My priest could talk about that till the cows come home and I would not relate.

Interestingly, I used to think that anyone that achieved success of any kind would immediately get rid of that symptom “I am not good enough”. However, I know some low wage gardeners that have better esteem than Wall Street lawyers.

Thanks for your insight!

BTW, this sensation is very common and nothing to feel bad about. It is nothing more than an exaggeration of normal human behavior.

I never complain ! I lay down strong hints that I don't want a certain advertised CD compilation for Father's day for example, but it doesn't make any difference.

I receive it with thanks and hugs and a little bit of hidden embarrassment every time !.

MarEle67 (Myrta),

It is good to hear from you again. If you don't mind I have a few questions. Hopefully they will help you.

You said
Ok, you liked it. Did he hear/see/feel that you liked it? Did you show him you liked it? How? Trust me I have a purpose in these questions.


So he gives you a gift you like, but he doesn't take the trouble to wrap it or include a card. You then say "you deserve a bit more than a gift that he had in a gym bag unwrapped."

So his lack of a card, or gift wrapping the gift negated the power or the sentiment behind the gift? Is that what you are saying? I am guessing that a well chosen card might have had more impact with you, than the gift itself am I right?


Oh NONSENSE, quit the pity party. But let me ask you this. Do you feel so uncertain of your marriage that you need your H to reassure you that he in fact loves you? Are you able to forgive yourself for your A? If not why not? What would make you feel more confidence in yourself and more confidence in your H?


Sorry it is not a "dumb problem". I see it as a serious problem, but it is not a problem about gifts. It is a problem of forgiveness, a problem of uncertainty, a problem of communications, a problem of love languages. Perhaps this whole thing is the "final" problem you two need to overcome, I am hoping it is true.


Oh Myrta, I KNOW he finds you attractive. That is quite clear from his posts here over the years. My guess is the problem is that he feels you may not find HIM desirable and choose another man. My guess he worries about his gifts because he doesn't think he is conveying to you the love he feels...and he is right. He is not. You don't receive these gifts as tokens of his love for you. The issue is why?

MarEle67, reading this thread and your post it seems to me, that the issue is you are both sort of insecure at this point. Perhaps you have always had a deep need for love shown a certain way. Perhaps the card and a careful wrapping of the present is just as if not more important that the gift itself. Perhaps, your H is misreading your body language. Perhaps, you need something from him and think that gifts will provide it, when in fact it is something else altogether.

Perhaps he needs to spend more time wrapping and selecting the card with the enclosed sentiments than the gift itself.

I don't know the answer. I wonder if either of you do. If you know what doesn't work, you need to let him know. If he is trying to show you love and missing the mark, he has to do some work to figure this out.

How to do it?? That one is easy. Both of you lay down the defenses, look inside yourselves and ask: what is it that makes me feel loved by my spouse? What do I need to address my uncertainties and fear? Where am I week and need help? Then talk to one another, as lovers, as you are meant to be...one. And sort out what needs to be done to put a smile on both of your faces, and comfort in your heart.

My guess the "gifts" are manifestations of other issues. If that is true neither of you will obtain the satisfaction from giving or receiving that you should. It is again balancing the "giver and the taker" in each of us.

I do hope something I have said is of use to you.

God Bless,

JL

This reminds me.

My grandfather was an avid golfer (as am I now, years later) and we gave him golf balls for years and years. We didn't know any better, and just got whatever was on sale. Its funny to think about, because now that I play I realize that there is a BIG difference between golf balls, and its something you really should KNOW what you're doing if you're going to give them as a gift and have them truly be appreciated. We didn't know that then.

He has since fallen in to poor health and has not played golf in several years. I was in his basement getting something and I looked in an out of the way closet. There was a stack of brand new golf balls in thier boxes about five feet tall! Probably 25, 30 dozen! I asked him about it and he said he always found more balls than he lost, and the ones he found were better than the new ones we bought! But he never complained, always smiled and said 'thank you' and we assumed he was running out to put them new balls in his bag as soon as he could!

Anyhow, this thread made me think of that!

Because you already know that you are enough Stanley? Is that why? That message by our pastor certainly didn't touch Mr. W in the same way that it did me, so I get that...He has always known that he was enough...Never questioned it...That wasn't his struggle here...I have always been amazed by his self-confidence...All his siblings are like that...I've quizzed my inlaws on what they did to insure this in their children even...It baffled me...

For me, what I've come to realize is that I'd long placed too much emphasis on my looks...my clothing...my jewelry...EVERYTHING I based on a WORLDVIEW rather than a KINGDOMVIEW...For me, this was BIG...Not that my struggles with this are all over...I will still stuggle I suspect from time to time...But now, I know where to turn to ground myself...Some of this is age perhaps...with age comes wisdom and wisdom comes from God...interesting to me...

I don't think I'm alone in this struggle...Even though I felt like the pastor was talking to ME, I'm not so self-centered as to believe that!

Mrs. W

Ok, you liked it. Did he hear/see/feel that you liked it? Did you show him you liked it? How? Trust me I have a purpose in these questions." quote




Hello again....

Yes, I did tell him that I liked it. Remember I told him the day before EXACTLY what I wanted it. I put it on inmediatly.

So his lack of a card, or gift wrapping the gift negated the power or the sentiment behind the gift? Is that what you are saying? I am guessing that a well chosen card might have had more impact with you, than the gift itself am I right?"



I think so...I think it is rather important that a card is included with a gift, especially if that gift is giving "just like that" unwrapped, from a gym bag.

I have told him so many times Exactly what I like, he NEVER listens to my likes or dislikes.






Oh NONSENSE, quit the pity party. But let me ask you this. Do you feel so uncertain of your marriage that you need your H to reassure you that he in fact loves you? Are you able to forgive yourself for your A? If not why not? What would make you feel more confidence in yourself and more confidence in your H?"




I do feel uncertain of my marriage!!! I need my husband to show me that he still LIKES me. I feel that he dislikes me and thats why he makes no effort to please me in such little requests.

It is not hard at all to please me JL. I have never been a Diva. Very simple things make me happy.

For example...shortly after DD....my husband ordered online a big box of Chiclets gum, because I love them. That was so cute and romantic.

Another time, I was in my country and I received unexpectly some flowers from FTD. Those things I like.

35 years married, and all I get is a bracelet that I chose online the day before, NOT ROMANTIC OR SPECIAL.




Like I said before, it was my idea to go away for the holiday weekend. I wanted him to play golf in a beautiful resort as my gift to him. Plus I gave him like ten gifts that he liked and needed . I thought carefully what I thought he would like.

When we were going to dinner to "celebrate" our anniversary. He wanted to go in the first restaurant he saw, because there was "no line, or crowd" to go in. I had suggested that we stay in our room and order room service. We have Never done that and I thought it would be romantic and neat. He discarded the idea ASAP.

We went to another restaurant, it was good, we waited over an hour to go in. But the food was good. And the ambiance was good too.




My guess the "gifts" are manifestations of other issues. If that is true neither of you will obtain the satisfaction from giving or receiving that you should. It is again balancing the "giver and the taker" in each of us."



Yes, I do think that the gifts are manifestations of other issues. I don't deserve any special treatment and that's why there is NO effort from him to me in those special occasions.

An anniversary is a very special time in a marriage.. But mine in the lasts years especially are not special at all.

Stanley had said before, that he is satisfied with anything I give him, but he lacked to mention that 98% of the things I give him he wants, or likes, because I know his likes and dislikes. I want him to be happy and to see that I care and think of him.

I generally like all presents I get. And if I get nothing I am also happy. In fact I often tell my wife not to get me anything on special occasions.

From the sample in this thread it seems the world is divided in two camps:

Those that put a lot of weight on gifts and those those are neutral or embarrassed by gifts.

Nevertheless, I will admit that getting the right gift at the right time is flattering to anyone.

The issue is that I see myself in handcuffs and feel like I am walking on eggshells when I have to do something for a special occasion.


More later

"Little ways" in your opinion Mytra. Working on my house is a little thing to Squid too because she loves to do it so much she cannot comprehend my loathing of it.

Its a big deal for some folks who are not gift-centred to meet that "little way" requirement of yours.

Many females like special care and attention to details.

I believe most philandering men know this by instinct. Your typical OM is always very smooth and knows how to play this game. Generally that does not translate into being a person of character and integrity.

For example:

Myrta’s OM developed a loving relationship with Myrta’s mother using that very technique. He was Mr. Charming and offered to take her to dinner as well as providing transportation to the doctor, etc. Soon after, the entire family was head over heels for the OM, including Myrta’s brother. Myrta’s mother and all her siblings are highly susceptible to flattery. OTOH, Myrta’s father could smell a rat a mile away and knew better.

What I am trying to say is that a person that seems too perfect in trying to please others and to make them feel special often has a hidden agenda. These are the guys that seem perfect during courting and then become the husband from hell during marriage.

I believe most sane women would rather take a steady man with a good heart and slightly less charm as a life long partner.

"He said/she said"....and the "dance continues."

Have either of you ever thought about changing the tune or trying a different dance?

Stanley, it doesn't matter if the "world" is divided into two camps regarding "gifts." The "world" isn't important. YOUR MARRIAGE is important, so why accept any "world" position as "your position" and that you have "no choice" in the matter?

This is a "whatever will be, will be" sort of fatalism.


Myrta, you continue to want to "Feel Loved," yet you selectively choose how YOU will try to show that you love Stanley and you selectively accept and/or reject HIS attempts to show you that he loves you. Don't you think your "dance" needs to change?

Loving your spouse IS about "giving," in all it's various forms. It is NOT about "me," but you both continue to dance the "me" dance. Why?

CHANGE. Necessary and sometimes "scary" because you are used to the current "dance."

CHANGE. You are MARRIED, not single.

CHANGE. It is said that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks."
Thank God that human beings are not dogs. It is never 'too late' to learn new things or to make POSITIVE changes in the "status quo rut" you've both gotten used to.

Myrta, you are "bothered" by Stanley's revisting MB. I'm willing to bet that Stanley doesn't talk to anyone about your marriage, and in the anonymity of MB he CAN talk about what is on HIS mind and what HE is feeling, hoping that "just maybe" he might find something that can help get your marriage to where you'd both "like it to be."

Stanley, you have steadfastly refused to IMPLEMENT things that you know regarding Myrta's likes and dislikes, resting on the idea that you are "just one of the 'world' and that's the way I am." "STUCK" is the descriptive word that we hear around MB frequently and it seems to be the "ongoing problem" with the two of you.

The question is, do you both really want to get "unstuck" and move to "better place" in your marriage or do you think that the status quo is "sufficient?"

If you (both of you) do want to actually make some positive changes in how you relate to each other improves the marriage then it will start with understanding what the areas are that need to be changed and the willingness to actually WORK at make the changes that will result in what you both seem to want.

If that IS the case, then let me recommend you get a copy of the book Magnificent Marriage by Gordon MacDonald. This may actually be the "first test" of a willingness to work at making changes because the book may be out of print now and it may take a little work to find the book.

But the key thought in the book that may help you both is the issue of "Liking" your spouse and HOW love is actually shown to the one you love.

Just a thought, Stanley and Myrta, but it seems as though the current "dance" has gone on long enough and it might make some sense to try to change the music, and thereby, move on to a new "dance."

What do you think?

FH:

Thanks for your words-------I believe you are on the money.

I wish we could go back to the time before all of this developed. I remember how Myrta had matured and blossomed into a confident woman. She was not high maintenance and it was a delight to be around her. I used to thank God on a regular basis regarding the fact that we had finally arrived. Myrta came from a family where infidelity was the norm and I used to say to myself how great we were as a couple and how we were immune to such a thing.

I think the post affair state has caused a great deal of uncertainty in Myrta. Pre affair she was full of confidence and she knew I would always be her husband. Post affair Myrta finds herself looking over her shoulder to see if I am going to walk away. That is why there is so much turmoil during the special occasions.

I have stated at nauseum that I am quite happy at this time and that I have forgiven Myrta. However, even my happiness is seen as a bad thing. If I am happy it means I don’t care. If am not pressed like a high school boy it means I have no interest. Where does it end? When can we become ourselves once again?

How do you do it Mrs Wondering?

Hiya Myrta.

Glad to see you and Stanley if not for the reason(s). You two were some of my favorite sounding boards whilst I was pulling my self respect from that location where it had been placed by the choices of my wife and the OM cretin.

I am NOT gift centered. If I get something, I am happy, but if I get nothing, I am also happy. A look and a word of recognition is enough for me. My wife is also somewhat NOT gift centered. She is a bit, but not too much. She too seems to value the thought, not the actual gift.

I just have a couple of things to add to all of the posts and posters, some of whom have come out of nowhere to greet your return. Surely you recognise that those still reading this forum from long ago and far away (back to 2004) value you and Stanley. I know I do.

First of all, consider Stanley. What he does for a living requires that he be aloof from the trials and tribulations that those in a less demanding profession can expose to the world. People trust him more if he seems centered and would be suspicious if he showed too much emotion beyond caring. So he has few outlets where he can just be himself, a human being and at times a troubled human being and this forum is one of those places. Most of us here could care less what he does for a living. Keep in mind that trust from those he treats is a very real part of the treatment.

In turn, Stanley probably has the feeling that he can trust those here to be honest with him. We don't see Stanley for what he does for a living, we see Stanley as another guy who sometimes has problems he needs to work out. An anonymous forum is the perfect place, or can be.

On the other hand, except for that time when you really needed the outlet, you don't normally want to discuss your issues with strangers. You have moved past the need here to a more private place as dictated by your cultural background. What I am saying is that two people joined at the hip very seldom have the same cultural brain washing and thus often disagree on things. If I understand real love, it is when someone really knows someone else down to their toes and loves them anyway. Anyone who loves someone because they agree about everything is living in a fool's paradise because that is NEVER reality.

So it is ok for you two to disagree. But I am not at all sure it is ok for you to make an issue out of it. That Stanley's needs have found a place for resolution should be ok with you, or so it seems to me.

For a fact, I have seen this same discussion happen between the two of you. This is at least the third or fourth time over the years it has erupted. So, er, how is that working for you? In other words, nothing has changed. Stanley still hasn't figured out how to make you happy in this arena and you haven't figured out a)Why you are so unhappy or b) Maybe just haven't figured out how to articulate why you are not happy. Please keep in mind that just because you have explained it doesn't mean someone else understands. For example, I have read just about everything you have said on the subject and I don't get it either. Call me a dunderhead if you will. From my view, you have been all over the map trying to explain. And I just don't understand. I have tried, especially a few years ago.

Since I don't get it, I will now shut up.

Larry

He said/she said"....and the "dance continues.""

Well, at least we are still dancing.

Have either of you ever thought about changing the tune or trying a different dance?")

I have changed quiet a lot since DD.

CHANGE. You are MARRIED, not single.")
I know I am married. I am not a person that thinks the world revolves around me.

I will look into your book suggestion. Thank you !!

Larry

From my view, you have been all over the map trying to explain. And I just don't understand. I have tried, especially a few years ago."

What I am saying is not so hard to understand. I just want to feel special on "those special occassions". I would like to see some effort from his part.

I get rather embarrass myself when I get gifts, from anyone!! I feel undeserving of them. That is why I would rather see something small but significant and that means something given to me. I have never,ever thought that I should get lavish gifts from my husband.



On the other hand, except for that time when you really needed the outlet, you don't normally want to discuss your issues with strangers. You have moved past the need here to a more private place as dictated by your cultural background. What I am saying is that two people joined at the hip very seldom have the same cultural brain washing and thus often disagree on things. If I understand real love, it is when someone really knows someone else down to their toes and loves them anyway. Anyone who loves someone because they agree about everything is living in a fool's paradise because that is NEVER reality."




Coming back to MB to talk about my "bad ways" because I don't like his gifts , I don't think was right. Our marriage is a normal one,most of the time. I am so completely sure couples with no affair between them, have these kinds of problems. But they don't go to strangers to complain and talk about them.

I don't like how I am portray in this forum. +Like I am this callous, cold ungrateful woman, that does not value what my husband does for me.

I value my husband very much and show him EVERYDAY in my actions, especially the last four years.

I would like my efforts to be recognize once in a while with something really special.

Well, let's see...

I live with the KING of OPTIMISM, Mr. W...He calls himself "fortified with optimism" even! His favorite sayings are "Now is How" and "Act, Don't React"...He seems to get things that others take years to get...He will write things like, "I am happy today. You see the period at the end of that sentence?" He lives all of these things and it's contagious...Or I darn sure try for it to be...I try and emulate him in MANY ways...We play on the same team...We talk often now about how different our marriage is...How much we value it now...How much we've learned about it and how different that it is than it used to be...We aren't adversarial we each other...It is OUR marriage...WE love it...WE protect it...WE know that NO MATTER WHAT we are in this together til death...Lots of security in that...Secure people are happy people I've found...Our marriage today is God-centered...

And here's a BIG one...He has forgiven me, of that I'm sure...He doesn't spend loads of time trying to figure out "why people cheat" or what top ENs do cheaters have in common...I read a lot of that in your posts Stanley...I always have...I still think that you believe that you are immune...Mr. W sees adultery as a human condition...If he thought that it was something only "bad Mrs. W" did it would be VERY HARD for me to believe that he had indeed forgiven me...I would be hard pressed not to think he thought himself better than me...That attitude would bleed into me...Security would be nearly impossible...Am I right? Do you still feel that way Stanley? That only "certain types" of people commit adultery? If so, I see that a BIG root issue for you guys...

Mrs. W

Mrs. Wondering


"And here's a BIG one...He has forgiven me, of that I'm sure...He doesn't spend loads of time trying to figure out "why people cheat" or what top ENs do cheaters have in common...I read a lot of that in your posts Stanley...I always have...I still think that you believe that you are immune...Mr. W sees adultery as a human condition...If he thought that it was something only "bad Mrs. W" did it would be VERY HARD for me to believe that he had indeed forgiven me...I would be hard pressed not to think he thought himself better than me...That attitude would bleed into me...Security would be nearly impossible...Am I right? Do you still feel that way Stanley? That only "certain types" of people commit adultery? If so, I see that a BIG root issue for you guys..." quote

Yup, my husband is always figuring why people cheat and he looks for common denominators for cheaters. Example, is his way, of not doing "special things" for me, because only OMs know how to be that way with women. They ALWAYS know what to say, what to give,etc,etc.

Btw Stanley...I don't want to lead you to believe that we don't still have arguments...We do! Our last big one was at Valentine's Day...An occasion that Mr. W thought it'd be okay to skip! ::thud:: So the gift issue has come up around here too! I had a meltdown about it right here on MB!

Mrs. W

I had a feeling that was at the core MarEle...I'm not completely sure how to change that either-there are a lot of folks that don't see adultery as a human condition...

What I find interesting is that GOD does see it that way...If He didn't, there wouldn't be the 10 Commandments...Adultery wouldn't be mentioned in all four Gospels...God knows us more intimately than any other...He is our creator and is very aware of what humans are capable of, even if we aren't...

Mrs. W

If my husband acted like your wife does, his next gift would be a donation made in his name to a children's burn camp or the homeless veterans shelter.

I tend to agree with you, human condition and all. OTOH, it would be useful for you to understand there are “certain types” who will never commit adultery. No matter what.

It’s the human condition thing too.


Being incurably curious, under what conditions would Mr. W commit adultery now? Not then, now.

with prayers,

Aren't YOU the clever one Aph !


I'm gonna answer that one for myself:

Under our current marriage conditions, I cannot see any way that Mr Pep might commit adultery. If he "fell off the wagon" and dropped out via the bottle - I would predict adultery within 6 months.

A VERY provocative question, indeed !

Pep

I remember a post a long time ago in which you wrote this was in fact true of your OM. (I am cursed with a photographic memory.)

It is the definition of OM, Myrta. It is true of OMs in general and of your OM in particular.

Why isn't Stanly allowed to believe it? Maybe he shouldn’t act on it per some sense of enlightened self interest but he sure gets to believe it is true, because it is. It is true for every WW's OM that ever lived and ever will live. Otherwise they would not have been a WW with that OM in the first place.

Yeah, alcohol + alcoholic = 0.99999(adultery). I have to agree.

Same with recidivist spouse abusers.

with prayers,

Well NOW Aph, things are quite different...We meet needs, we are connected, we better understand boundaries and most importantly, we have PLANS...We know more now than we did then...HOWEVER, we are smart enough to realize that believing that we are completely immune now would be foolish...So, we have even more safeguards in place...We consult each other on seemingly tiny decisions...

A recent example from our lives...A staffer of ours who happens to be a close friend of mine didn't have enough gas/money to get to our newest location that we are beginning build out on...She asked if she could catch a ride with Mr. W...Mr. W came to me and asked how I would feel about that-(that wouldn't have happened pre-affair)...Long ago I would have seen that as harmless anyway...Not anymore...I gave a resounding "NO WAY"...I see that "harmless ride" as the tip top of a very slippery slope...After saying "yes" that one time, the second, third and fourth etc. times would have been "no big deal"...The conversations would have gotten more and more relaxed and familiar and on and on...The devil is in the smallest of details...Boundaries must be ironclad...(Btw, the staffer was given an advance on her paycheck and was able to put gas in her car)

I think with a MB education under your belt you are better armed, but that doesn't make you immune...Knowledge is power only when you apply that knowledge...

Mrs. W

Mrs W

Did you answer the question? I can't tell.

OBTW - did you subscribe to my YT channel? If you did, I sent you a message.

Pep

That's interesting...I didn't get squat from OM...I paid for EVERYTHING...Embarassing, but TRUE...

Mrs. W

OK, but under what conditions might he?

If you started doing something? If you stopped doing something? If he lost a family member? If he lost his job? If lightening struck him during a terrible storm?

IMO, there are people so well grounded lighting will never strike them. Maybe Mr. W is one.

(Err, that’s a mighty poor metaphor, but I hope you get what I mean.)

with prayers,

LOL...Sorry Pep, I went around my elbow to get to my heiney as usual...

I don't think Mr. W (or myself) is immune "just because"...I think we are because our marriage is what MB would call "affair proof" now...How's that? We are committed to not putting ourselves in temptation's way...

And YES, I did subscribe...I LOVED them too...I cried watching the one featuring your dad...beautiful...I'll have to check my messages!

Mrs. W

Well Aph, I wouldn't say that Mr. W was immune before...Prior to my affair he propositioned one of our staff who thankfully said, "NO"...I came darn near close to being the BS...(I didn't find that out til after my affair)

When we dated, he cheated multiple times...Anyone, including him, would have bet BIG MONEY on me being betrayed by him, not the other way around...

One of the things he said to me on dday was, "Mrs. W, I always looked to you for moral guidance."

I was one of the ones that SWORE that *I* was immune Aph...And we all know what happened from there...

Mrs. W

So, squatting was your thing. He seemed to know what to give you standing up.

ed: Ok, now I see this in print it doesn’t read so nice. Sorry. My point being, your OM may not have given you much in the way of material things, but he knew, as Mryta writes, just what to say to you and just what to do for you, right? He was OMish as the best of them.

Ok Myrta and Stanley,

Let me take another cut at this given what has been said. what I think is that the two of you are indeed doing a dance as I beleive FH called it. I don't think either of you recognize it though.

Myrta, if it is true, as Stanley said, that your whole family except father was "seduced" by OM and his generousity, his attention, his help, then you might guess that you were as well, right? So one could conjecture that you are a product of your family and you feel that the type of attention OM gave you is indeed what any man that wanted you might give you.

How am I doing?

Now let's assume that Stanley sees the same thing. Further being in the profession he is in, it is his nature to look at things, be puzzled, fascinated, and focus on things he does not understand. But, let's assume that he is also a man of pride.

If this is true, his response is very likely to be "I'll be d****d if I will act like OM." A bit of stubbornness perhaps, a bit of rebellion. And the fact that he does NOT respect a man that uses a woman's weakness to buy her affection.

I does not want to "buy" your affection Myrta (assuming I am right), so you are seeing a bit of passive agressiveness here.

HOw am I doing Stanley?

Further, he may be saying to himself: "I stayed in this marriage, I forgave her, I love and support her and all she wants is gifts like OM gave her." If this is true, his reactions make sense don't they.

Further, he is successful, and really anything he wants he can buy, but he is like me. He has a passion for his work as I do, and I really only have time/space for a couple of passions in my life: my work and my family, things finish down the list.
So I also have a hard time seeing your need as being important to you as it really is.

Let's get to anniversaries. I don't know if Stanley was ever heavily into anniversaries, but I would guess he is not so sure he should be wildly celebrating the anniverasries now. Why? Again a guess: you didn't think the marriage was very important at one time in your life and he is not sure now.

So let's say I am even close to the mark here.

What does it mean for you two. ONe it means Stanley has some resentment left to deal with. Two, it means his pride is making it very difficult for him to be like OM. But, it also means Myrta that you need to recognize that this need for gifts must change. I don't mean no gifts. I mean there are many ways to give gifts: the gift of time, the gift of attention (a good resturaunt, dancing, just affection), the gift of respect (accepting each other: good and bad), and the gift of history/family. The two of you have been married 35 years, lots of history, lots of good times, good children, grandchildren, isn't time you two realize that you have given each other a magnificent gift of history here???

Myrta, I sense you are a woman of pride as well. Pride in yourself, pride in who you are. You don't want to change either because that would mean you had let this affair define you. Well, it hasn't defined you, but it should have changed you. You like Stanley need to let go of your pride abit, and be willing to change HOW your needs are met, NOT your needs. YOu need him to show you his love, you need him to show you respect and kindness, but perhaps you need to redefine who he does these things taking into account his issues with what has happened.

When I said talk to one another, I did not mean "how's the weather?" I meant be honest: what still bugs each of you, what do you really deep down want to see from each other, what are you having a hard time recognizing in one another?

This to me is not about "gifts", it is about giving and taking on an emotional level, one a personal level, taking into account each of your own preference, what you have learned, and the reality of your life experiences with each other.

Please think about this. I'll give off of my "soapbox" now, and quite being an armchair Psych. guy.

I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

Last threadjack, as this thread isn't about ME...

OM was my ex high school/college boyfriend Aph...Pretty much cements for me what Dr. Harley says about NC being so important...That a low burning flame remains for an OP and it can be reignited at any time...My affair proved that...Dr. Harley is a very smart man...

Mrs. W

P.S. You were right, that wasn't very nice...I appreciate your apology.

Mryta,

If there are such things as ENs it may be useful to postulate the existence of aversions we could call anti-ENs.

Stanley may now have a visceral aversion to even remotely appearing like OM. In deed, in word, in thought. To him, to you, to the universe at large.

He now has an anti-EN.

Plenty of us BH do.

This anti-EN is not going to go away any more than ENs do. This anti-EN may now be as basic as his actual ENs.

You may need to change to meet his anti-EN. A plan A, in fact. All things being equal, you owe it to your marriage. You always did owe it to your marriage.

I type way fast, and I usually don't read what I type until it shows up on the thread. Sometimes things look so different in print compared to what they look like in my head. I should preview first, huh. But that is so like climbing stairs, a waste of time. I always run stairs – both ways.

With prayers,

I know, I know, I am awful.

I think that happens more often than you think. The sign of a really good "player", IMO. My FWW didn't get anything from the OM either.

Cut that out MarEle...If you keep saying that, I'm gonna start to believe you!

I like what BobPure says often around here..."Opinions Vary"...Use that one next time!

Mrs. W

Actually, I don't think I am awful. I think I have been a pretty good wife to my husband(not counting the awful time of the A).

But some people here think that I am.

And as MelodyLane drilled into me, the only person's opinion of you that MATTERS is that of "the lady in the mirror"...(and Stanley's too! )

I'm glad to hear that you don't think that you're awful!

Mrs. W

Myrta:

Please stop a minute. The problem is a lack of communication.

I said I didn't understand your point. Then you came right back and said:



Okay, how does what you said make me understand? What you have said is vague. First you say it is not so hard to understand. Does that make me a complete idiot because I don't?

Then you say you just want to feel special. Okay, what makes you feel special? I cannot read your mind. I cannot read your emotional responses.

Let me say this again. I cannot read your mind. I cannot read your emotional responses. Nobody can unless you open yourself to be understood. See Myrta, there are two sides to the coin; on one side is your need and on the other side is Stanley trying to meet that need. His lack of comprehension is a product of a failure to communicate, your failure.

Do you see that Myrta?

The last time we went around and around on this subject, I suggested that what you really wanted was Stanley's time. I don't remember the outcome from that suggestion.

Okay, next:


Two things:

Number one. Did you read why I said Stanley came here? I said, a) because he felt safe, and b) because he had no other place to vent his frustrations. I explained why. Again, did you read what I said. He isn't talking about your "bad" ways, he is talking about the simple fact he doesn't understand how to please you. And he wants help. He found help here before, so it is natural that he would seek help here again.

You probably didn't understand what I said or something. See how easy it is to not understand? You didn't understand me, but I thought what I said was easy to understand. Since what I said went against what you wanted to think, voila. And you are flat wrong about something: People go to strangers to complain all the time because it is safe, no affair involved.

Number two. I do not think you are a callous, cold ungrateful woman. For one thing, I don't waste my time on people who I feel is in that category. And I certainly will talk to you anytime and I have talked to you for years. My overall impression of you is very positive and that will likely never change.

But that doesn't mean we have to agree about everything, does it?

Let me try another way of explaining.

Without question, women want their men to more or less understand them. No, not completely because then the mystery cannot be called upon at a woman's convenience. Women want their men to understand because they KNOW how hard it is to explain something to a male. But the reality is that men don't really understand women except during a certain stage of infatuation and then the understanding is NOT real, the woman just thinks the male understands because she wants to believe he does even when he doesn't.

Oh, men can understand some things after a long struggle and much patience on his woman's part.

Let me take another try to see if I can get this right. I am really struggling with a way to explain what I think so YOU (female) will understand ME (male).

You want Stanley to give you something to make you feel good about yourself. Uh, how does he do that? Only YOU can make yourself feel good about YOU. Perhaps what you really mean is that you want Stanley to give you something so you know Stanley feels good about YOU. If that is true, then the light might dawn and I will say something that can help you and Stanley.

So tell me again. And before you say something, think about it. Do you want to feel good about you or do you want to feel that Stanley feels good about you? Which one is it or is it something else?

Larry

Having spent all thread identifying with Stanley, I think I can also identify a little with Myrta.

as some may know my dear Squid has not been great at spontaneously giving up some IB that triggers and hurts me. Its dropped but not STOPPED.

MANY exasperated friends have asked me " WHY don't you just tell her to stop those independent behaviours for goodness sakes ???? JUST TELL HER ! Its BEYOND POJA just tell her ! Protect yourself ! "


Trouble is....I don't want a resentful robot doing what I say as a "punishment" or an unavoidable consequence of her affair. I want a women who CARES ENOUGH to want to protect me from hurt to make decisions that place my heart above her fun.

It is the heart of care that I want, not the "actions" done resentfully.

Perhaps Myrta, you would rather have the WRONG gift chosen and wrapped with care and delivered with a lovely hand written bible quote on the tag than a new Porsche boxter bought over the internet by his secretary ?

Its the HEART for pleasing me I want, not the actions. Is that like you at all Myrta ?

(quote)-Okay, how does what you said make me understand? What you have said is vague. First you say it is not so hard to understand. Does that make me a complete idiot because I don't?

-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry, again, I) don't think is so hard what I am trying to say. I would like my husband to "pay attention" to a little detail, instead, of thinking that going to Tiffany's and buying me a piece of jewerly over and over again is going to hit the jackpot with me!
He talks about me giving him "golf shirts" and he has tons of them, but that is just one of the many gifts that I know he would like. But when I give him the gifts I wrapped them, I choose carefully his card, put it in a gift bag,etc.etc.

My husband on the other hand, gives me a gift that I had chosen online the day before. He gave me ONE thing of the 3 or 4 things that I told him I would like. No card, not wrapped.

What hurt me was his lack of detail, the "no card", the "no romance".

I would had rather receive a box of chiclets with a pretty card with a nice message written by HIM!



QUOTE-Let me say this again. I cannot read your mind. I cannot read your emotional responses. Nobody can unless you open yourself to be understood. See Myrta, there are two sides to the coin; on one side is your need and on the other side is Stanley trying to meet that need. His lack of comprehension is a product of a failure to communicate, your failure.
-




-----------------------------------------------------------------
I have opened myself to him many times, about what I like and I don't. No, he cannot read my mind, but he can listen to what I tell him. He hears me, but he does not listen. I don't think I have failed, communicating, he just does not care to listen.


I should kiss the path he walks, and thank my lucky stars because he is my husband.(his words) Any woman, would love having him as a husband, because he is so good (his words)






QUOTE-You want Stanley to give you something to make you feel good about yourself. Uh, how does he do that? Only YOU can make yourself feel good about YOU. Perhaps what you really mean is that you want Stanley to give you something so you know Stanley feels good about YOU. If that is true, then the light might dawn and I will say something that can help you and Stanley.)
==================================================================

Maybe you are right, maybe I want Stanley to give me something that shows me that he feels "good" about me. I want Stanley to like me, for what I had become. I want him to see that I have changed since DD.

QUOTE-Perhaps Myrta, you would rather have the WRONG gift chosen and wrapped with care and delivered with a lovely hand written bible quote on the tag than a new Porsche boxter bought over the internet by his secretary ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------

EXACTLY!! I would rather he gave me something that I know he chose with love and care, wrapped beautifully with an enclosed card.

Many years ago, he gave me a mink coat, lavish so expensive. Really, too much!! I get embarrass to wear those kinds of coats. He took his secretary with him, so she could model the coat, and they chose it together. That was one of my "least" favorite gifts from him. I am not a pretentious woman and he knows it. But yet he buys me a 5k floor lenght mink.


It is not the $$$$$$, but the quality of the detail involved that counts, with me.

Perhaps, the coat could have been used for a more private wearing? Rather than run down the gift because of the cost and so-called pretentiousness, you could exert a little more creativity in your receiving of gifts?

Myrta - I used the Scarlett O Hara example because she was never happy with what she had, what was given freely. She never saw the heart of the man because it wasn't what SHE wanted. Your example of rejecting the mink coat is just another example. What if it wasn't pretentious to Stan-ley? What if your attitude toward that gift is just another way of telling him he's not enough; that he doesn't measure up in this very important emotional need like the OM did?

You are running the risk of pushing this "mystical mind-reading" expectations to the destruction of your marriage.

I can understand why Stan-ley doesn't want to do ANYTHING remotely like the OM did to win your love and affection. It's a huge thing you are asking of him. Impossible really.

I would NEVER do something for my husband that was remotely like the OW did. I would be myself. The best myself I could be and do what I could to meet his emotional need. But my husband grew up and stopped expecting me to "mother him" the way OW did. If he had remained in that stuck place he was in when he accepted the OW's violation of our boundaries, we would not be married right now.

Oh - and btw, manipulating people with pretended self-loathing is not nice. It's not endearing. Please consider this a potential lovebuster to Stan-ley. And eliminate it from your posts and behavior. Saying negative things about yourself like I know I know - I'm awful lacks sincerity. Especially when coupled with your posts about what a wonderful wife you are and how grateful you are.

Yes - you are insecure about where you stand with Stan-ley - but that's different from the sentiments of pretended loathing on a foundation of anger - which is what I see in your posts.

Stanley:

Okay, from the following. . .



If what she is saying in response to me needling her, then the light should be dawning, especially in light of her response to what BOB PURE had to say and her response to him. In other words, based on those two items, I GET IT.

Stanley, do you? Er, do you get it?

Of course getting it and reaching inside yourself to figure out how to implement that knowledge are two different things. Need some help with that?

We could get into psychobabble about how Docs give so much of themselves, a little bit at a time, all day, to the point where they don't have much left, but that is a crock if a Doc manages himself properly, so I won't go there. I could go into types of people and how hard they have to work to figure out true intimacy (for example, me) but I won't go there yet.

We could get into the simple fact that for some people, a very expensive gift is a sign of appreciation and for others, it looks like you are trying to buy them. We could get into a lot of things.

To get into the simple instead of the complex, again, I get it. Myrta has explained it so I understand if what she says is reality instead of just more smoke blowing.

You are the kinda guy who places a great deal of importance on method. That is beat into you through your education process. Thus, the familiar road is the one best traveled. Uh, when that no longer works, when the familiar no longer yields the desired result, change is obviously needed. You want to make Myrta happy? Okay, the solution becomes obvious, doesn't it?

So what are you going to do Stanley?

Larry

Kayla Andy says=I can understand why Stan-ley doesn't want to do ANYTHING remotely like the OM did to win your love and affection. It's a huge thing you are asking of him. Impossible really.
_-----------------------------------------------------------------

The OM in question was not lavishing me with "perfect gifts". I don't want my husband to be like him at all. They are opposites.

If there comes a destruction of My Marriage, it will be both faults, not only mine. There is NO "mystical mind reading",.



QUOTE'-Oh - and btw, manipulating people with pretended self-loathing is not nice. It's not endearing. Please consider this a potential lovebuster to Stan-ley. And eliminate it from your posts and behavior. Saying negative things about yourself like I know I know - I'm awful lacks sincerity. Especially when coupled with your posts about what a wonderful wife you are and how grateful you are.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I do NOT self loath myself, that was a sarcastic comment of my part You are right I was not being sincere, just merely sarcastic.

And yes, I do consider myself a good wife to my husband. If I had been the horrible ungrateful wife that is described in this thread, he would had gone out the door many years ago, way before my Affair. He stayed with me because I have been a good wife and I have given him what he needed.


QUOTE-Yes - you are insecure about where you stand with Stan-ley - but that's different from the sentiments of pretended loathing on a foundation of anger - which is what I see in your posts.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Yes,I am angry. Angry about his lack of effort to me!

I agree with Larry. You may understand what you are saying but it really isn't clear and I'm a woman so it's not entirely a male/female thing. To me, the bolded statement above sounds like you want a specific brand or style of something. Or a specific piece to match other pieces that you have. Or a specific colour of something. I can envision Stanley anxiously browsing over similar pieces of jewelrey at Tiffany's completely stressing out that he might not be seeing the right detail you are looking for.

But later on you say you'd be happier with a pack of chicklets wrapped nicely with a sentimental card etc. If this is so, then what you want improvement on is the presentation of the gift, not the gift itself. You need to choose your words so that this is the message you convey. It may mean saying specificially, "I would like my gift nicely wrapped, with a card that has a romantic saying, presented to me under circumstances that may include a romantic atmosphere such as by coming home early and leaving a trail of rose petals leading to it's location." I understand that it can take away some of the romance of it to spell it out to him like this but after you have done it a few times, he will be able to learn what to do and will even be able to come up with his own ideas.

Right now, you have asked him to pay attention to detail. What detail?

Paying off a $5k coat requires effort - especially one received with disgust.

Stan-ley and you speak different love languages. You deride him for not learning your language (mystical mind reading) while you don't put the effort to learn his.

Be angry. It doesn't serve you or Stan-ley nor will it make him learn your language.

Be very clear about what you want - not coded in "I want him to put out a little effort" - well what does that mean in Stan-ley's language? "I can't find the d*mned hoop Myrta's wanting me to jump through - so I ask questions - she gets mad because I'm not coming up with this on my own."

That's mystical mind reading and yes you are doing it. Give it up. Stan-ley doesn't speak your language and he's not going to get it without a little patience and loving on your part. Anger isn't loving. It hurts this process.

Set it up for him to win. Teach him - don't yell at him on how to make the needed deposits.

QUOTE===ight now, you have asked him to pay attention to detail. What detail?


---------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, so I was not clear in what details I would like? I have already said that I would RATHER get a box of wrapped gum, with a nice sentimental card.

No, I don't want any specific jewerly piece to match what I already have. He does not have to stress about it, he knows it!


I thought I was being clear of my wants.

KAYLA ANDY-Paying off a $5k coat requires effort - especially one received with disgust.
----------------------------------------------------------

Actually, I did not received it with disgust, but with amusement. I did not tell him at the time, I did not liked it. I am saying it now, many years later.


Everybody "filters" what they want to hear. Like you now, just seeing my "not coded messages" or "mystical nonsense" that I am accussed of doing.






Set it up for him to win. Teach him - don't yell at him on how to make the needed deposits.
===========================================================

I have been for years trying to "teach him" . He refuses to change his ways or gift tantics.

This whole thread reminds me (painfully) of something that happened years ago to me.

My husband would take the kids for a ride out through the woods and fields around our house. Sometimes in the truck, motorcycle, whatever. I stayed home and got a few minutes alone. We had 3 kids in 4 years and 16 days. I was busy. And unhappy-grumpy really.

He did this pretty regularly. They always came back with something for me. It was usually wildflowers they had picked for me. They were so excited and I always said thanks and gushed over them to the kids.

Then in my unhappiness about something I would say something like
"they are such a mess" or "I can't stand the bugs" because the flowers would drop their petals quickly and sometimes they had bugs that would crawl down to the counter top or table.

And that was the last time I got wildflowers.

What a terrible thing I did. I regret my horrible attitude. I hope the kids don't remember how ungrateful I was. I know my h does (maybe not that particular incident, just my bad attitude in general).

I want to add....

when h gave me a fire hose nozzle for the end of my garden hose and a pack of hose gaskets for mothers day, I was pretty tickled!

He gives fun stuff. Stuff I'll use and that is practical, but fun too.

For Christmas he gives what he has found through the year that he loves. One year we included Eggo syrup with all the gifts we sent out because he loved the squirter top on it!

This year we included an odorcide that we found that worked really well. Everybody loves these fun gifts. My dad swears he doesn't like anything hotter that salt to eat. As h and I wandered around walmart one day guess what he spotted....HOT SALT! Guess what my dad got for Christmas???

The difference is me.

Exactly! The concept of a cunning man that is extremely charming and pays attention to detail while trying to achieve his unsavory agenda is nauseating and highly repulsive to me. Many times I feel Myrta wants me to be that kind of person and I cannot do it. I am not charming and I can be somewhat dry at times.




Quite well, in fact, the plan for the anniversary was that I would not do a whole lot. I was too tired of the continuous criticism regarding my inability to be romantic and charming. And yes, that criticism is a gigantic love buster for me. This also leads to resentment and paralysis. It is difficult to do something under duress. The pressure to perform up to OM standards is very stressful.





Yes, OM gave her stuff like $5.00 T-shirts and plastic jewelry, which she treasured and as you know refused to throw away for many months following d-day. Remember that thread?

So now I am the bad guy because I buy her stuff from Tiffany’s on a regular basis. I buy her stuff when there is no special occasion. I gave her a nice necklace the other day when she came back from a trip and she said nothing when she got it.






This is quite true. In fact, the anniversary was an unpleasant time for the 1st two years after d-day. One of the reasons I discovered the affair was that Myrta was cold and distant on our anniversary. Two days later I installed the key logger and made the discovery. D-day and the anniversary are only a couple of days apart.





Exactly! I have said the same for years, but it seems I never measure up to her standards. I also suspect she wants to feel the same way she felt with OM and that is impossible. I cannot duplicate the sensations of an illicit affair------it cannot be done.

I must repeat that Myrta is not frivolous or materialistic. I believe she seeks a sensation that is quite hard to achieve in a long-term marriage.

I also accept that I resent the idea of the anniversary and the fact that I know I will fail over and over again. That causes me to not try very hard or to act in a non-spontaneous manner.

I also believe that Myrta has a love hate relationship with me. This is a very unique trait in her family. I would not be surprised if she feels the same way about me. Every single member of Myrta’s family has a love-hate relationship with each other. So it would not be unrealistic to think that she also has that sort of relationship with me.

You said this on page 12 and only after if you asked specifically if it was the actual gift itself or how it was wrapped. It took 12 pages to tweek out the real cause of your dissatisfaction. Until then, it wasn't clear at all.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I'm just trying to point out that even though YOU know what you want, your message isn't getting through. This is occuring here on the board, and from Stanley's posts, it's probably occurring at home too.

Read closely all of the responses on love languages. There is some great advise in them to help this exact problem.

QUOTE-You said this on page 12 and only after if you asked specifically if it was the actual gift itself or how it was wrapped. It took 12 pages to tweek out the real cause of your dissatisfaction. Until then, it wasn't clear at all.
===========================================================

Ok, maybe it took me 12 pages here to be clear of my wants. But Stanley knows, he has known for years what will please me. I have been very clear, specific with my husband.
===============================



I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I'm just trying to point out that even though YOU know what you want, your message isn't getting through. This is occuring here on the board, and from Stanley's posts, it's probably occurring at home too.
====================================================================

I don't want to be argumentative either, so that's why I will not post anymore here. Because this is going NOWhere,

My husband keeps on posting the same stuff about me,my family, my sisters and the stupid OM, being a charmer.

That is quiet tiresome too.

Thanks all!

If he knew, he wouldn't be here asking precisely this question.

I want to add that this time of the year has triggered me back to the early days and I feel quite a bit of anger. I had a huge blow out on Mother’s day after I was told I failed to meet her standards. I don’t recall that much anger in the last five years, but I was completely overwhelmed and stressed out.

And now I appear to be attacking OM once again and trying to explain my wife’s behavior on the basis of her family culture. I apologize for the regression and I am sure I have love busted my wife with this.

I want all of this stuff to go way so I can be normal again. This time of the year is very stressful. Last year was no different. I guess I could go back and get another present (wrap it myself, instead of the jewelry store) with a nice card, but it would seem like an orchestrated event under duress. I really don’t know what to do.

I have to mention once again that it is difficult to perform under pressure.

RELAX!

I can't see any reason for a "do over".
It's done and can't really be re-done. It would be like chasing your tail and continuing this same exact dance. Pointless.

Stan-ley,

You have my sympathy, as it appears you are dealing with a no-win situation, where your WW is still expecting to achieve happiness through the actions of others.

I agree---one must be happy without the props from others.

Otherwise, one is a set up for disappointment.

I agree, trying to do it again will not work-----I am lost on this one.

Myrta wrote: “I do feel uncertain of my marriage!!! I need my husband to show me that he still LIKES me. I feel that he dislikes me and that’s why he makes no effort to please me in such little requests.”

I thought about these three sentences of yours, Mryta, and I wonder if you know how whiny they read. How needy you sound?

He did not divorce you after your long affair with a scumbag. He obviously still likes you. Why is that not enough proof for you? He may even still love you.

“And yes, I do consider myself a good wife to my husband. If I had been the horrible ungrateful wife that is described in this thread, he would have gone out the door many years ago, way before my Affair. He stayed with me because I have been a good wife and I have given him what he needed.”

No! See, he does love you. He does not like what you did, but he loves you. That does not seem to be enough for you though, does it.

You need to understand complaining and fighting over your own misperceptions concerning the many, many gifts Stanley gives you is as good a way to eventually push him away as was your sordid affair in the first place. You want him to eventually feel nothing for you? Keep on doing exactly what you are doing.

You want, you want, you want. Stop wanting. Be happy he still likes you today. He may wake up not liking you one of these days if you continue acting so miserably spoiled.


Stanly, this is an easy problem to solve. Mryta solves it for you right here. She wants a nice card. That’s all. No actual gift. Just a card. That is easy. Simply give her a card on whatever occasion. Cards are easy. That’s all I ever get for FWW now. Cards. I’m long done knocking myself out looking for the perfect gift. She can buy whatever she wants whenever she wants. I give her cards.

If you would like for Mryta to finally stop complaining, just give her what she says she wants. A nice card. On big occasions, give her two cards.

It is not so much a card.

I think Myrta wants an event that shows I really did my homework and work hard at creating a nice memorable occasion.

Let me explore the issue of the card:

For Mother’s day I went shopping with one of my daughters and we ended in a store that was giving away custom made cards for free. All you needed to do was take a photo and they would incorporate this into the card. My youngest daughter and I posed for the photo and this was incorporated into the card. Below the photo I wrote a loving message and it seems to be a hit on Mother’s day.

Then my daughter mentioned how these cards were free and that seemed to hit a nerve. Myrta then asked me how come I did not get a real card from the Hallmark store next door. I said I looked at them, but none were as cute as the one I got for free. Myrta then said that my daughter got her a card from Hallmark and I didn’t. This implies that I did not try hard enough and that I am careless. Furthermore, the photo card was not good enough because they were given them away for free.

Myrta then complained about all four presents I gave her and returned all of them. We had a massive blow out and I became extremely angry.

I then decided to ask Myrta what she wanted for the anniversary. I asked for an entire week and she finally told me the day before we were leaving for the resort. That was the Friday before the long three-day weekend and the traffic in DC was a parking lot everywhere. I drove for 90 minutes to the jewelry store to get one of her requests and decided I would get the other stuff later because it was quite late. I thought about getting a card later, but there was no time to do much and the traffic was unbearable. I them remember I had decided to do very little and decided that was enough.

Sheesh.

You can't win this, you know. Can't even solve it head-on.

This isn’t about anything you do or do not do. It is totally about her insecurities, her basic personality and her methods of manipulating you.

And certain bottomless needs.

I’ve been there.

It will get worse over time. You need expert help.

Would she be willing to talk to one of the Harleys with you?

With prayers,

Stanley,

My stepmother loved cards...above all else. I knew this. We all knew this. She would feel crushed when she didn't get a card for an occasion.

We knew she would be.

You know what matters to Myrta. The card. Get cards. Focus on the cards and not so much on a gift.

They are her symbol. You can get cards weeks ahead of time...no rush...no waiting for her to choose...just you and cards. Whether you believe in them or not.

You know she values them.

Sounds to me like you both have a parallel recurring issue:

Myrta (let me know if this rings any bells): To feel loved on special occasions, you want what you want, when you want it and in the way you want it.

Stanley: You want to feel appreciated, when you want it and in the way you want it.

Each of you saying, "This is what I need." Stanley wants his efforts recognized, appreciated and not criticized--he doesn't want to fail Myrta.

Reward one another lavishly with praise and appreciation (includes touch and affection)--see your daily gifts in one another...you already know what thrills one another...question yourselves for why you don't do when you don't; and when you do, why you do. Then share what you find out with each other.

And when we justify, we're lying to ourselves. Okay to say, "I knew and I didn't do." Okay to say, "I was giving to get."

So you can see and know.

In it together. Because you already are.

LA

LA,

I take it back. This isn't really about the cards, even (see Stanley’s most recent post.)

This appears to be manipulation for it's own sake. For internal reasons.

Treating the symptoms of this chronic condition is not going to cure the disease. A regimen of cards will eventually produce resistance/immunity in her too.

It’s already begun, in fact. Look at her defense. She is a good wife in all these various (unspecified) areas. Therefore, she is justified in being this way about gifts. Foggy as any active WW, IMO.

This is way more than gifts and cards and wondering if Stanley likes her. For crying out loud, he doesn’t have to like her. He has to love her. And he already does. But she does not care about that. She cares about a very confused misperception of intent behind some stupid cards.

It’s way more than cards.

With prayers,

LOVINGAnyway-

Log in again, just to thank you for one of the "most" beautiful posts in this thread, so far. Because the only thing I get is critics in how horrible I am. You on the other hand can see what BOTH of us is doing wrong. Thank you for having a dual vision of us.




QUOTE-You can get cards weeks ahead of time...no rush...no waiting for her to choose...just you and cards. Whether you believe in them or not.
==================================================================

Yes, he can get the cards weeks ahead. He always rushes at the last minute to go to Tiffany, that it is by his place of work, not miles away, like he said before. He crosses the street and he is in the store. Tiffany even encloses a little card, and is ALWAYS blank!

I don't think I am been so unreasonable because I tell him that I would like him to give me a card.

I AM Not trying to validate myself thru him and his gifts. I know my value as a woman,as a mother , as a daughter, as a sister, but not as his Wife!

I agree with Aph...it's more than the card.

How much more personal can a card be than with a picture of H and DD, and yet it falls short. Because it was FREE?

Oh my gosh....this is unreal!

I love that card, I even have it on top of dresser. It is a beautiful card.

The daughter that is with him in the card, ALSO gave me a personal card from HER. Is it too much for me to dare to ask for one personal card from my husband?

Anyways, I know, I feel, that what I am asking for is not such hard task to accomplish by a husband.

Even the women here that say that I am so awful for not appreciating, would feel hurt too.

Horrible:
1. Very unpleasant – bad, unsightly, smelly
2. Causing horror - sufficiently frightening, distressing, or shocking as to provoke horror, a crime
3. Nasty - unkind, rude, ill-behaved, ungrateful, mean

Which of these definitions are you using? 3? So stop. Just stop. You will be much happier if you change, not Stanley.

ed: Mryta, what if this is the best Stanley can do? What if he is trying his hardest, doing his level best and this is it? What then? You need to consider this. Is it worth fighting with him for the rest of your life? Is it worth a D? Or, is it worth not concerning yourself so much with such a bagatelle in the first place?

Is this for mothers day we are talking about?

Is it too much for you to dare ask for more than one card from your HUSBAND for mothers day?

um, yes it is pretty darn unreasonable!

Aphelion

Thanks for the definition of Horrible.

Yup, it is.

I guess it is also unreasonable to ask for a card for Our Anniversary.

All those Hallmark stores should go out of business.

They are not needed!

Your daughter gave you her own personal card for MOTHERS DAY.
You are not your husbands mother. He doesn't owe you anything...but he did give you a card which you claim to adore, BUT....which cancels out everything else.

How can he feel appreciated for the card if you say "thanks, but you could have done better" ? All you want is a card, except this time, you wanted 2 cards? How can he know that?

According to Stanley, you received a gift and a card on every one of those occasions. Just not the card you wanted.

Actually, the card isn't the problem either.

The problem is you perceive/imagine his intent and dedication wanting.

Let’s be accurate, shall we.

Myrta:

Do you remember how frustrated you get when you cannot please your mom? No matter how hard you try?

I know I am laid back and quite often do everything the last minute. I don't plan very well. You are a thousand times better at planning these things. For years I bought your Xmas present of Dec 24. In fact it became a personal tradition for me.

Myrta, I work all week and going shopping after work is a HUGE shore for me.

OTOH, walking to a store that is right next to the office at lunchtime is a blessing for me. I don't shop there to LB you. I simply like their stuff and sooner than later you end up liking everything I get there. In fact, the track record for this store is quite good regarding your rate of returning GIFTS. As far as I know you have only retuned a couple of things from this store. OTOH, you generally return 95% of the other stuff I give you.

I cannot win this battle.

So what is one to do?

Surrender!

Nope He NEVER gives me a card anymore, since DD.


QUOTE-According to Stanley, you received a gift and a card on every one of those occasions. Just not the card you wanted.

Stanley

Our distances will become wider and wider.....

Aph,

As I said, I experienced this same thing with my stepmother.

She's dead...and I have her many boxes of cards from a lifetime. I even have the unopened Thanksgiving card which came while we were planning her services.

Harley says to speak of what gives us feelings of being loved and valued. It's a perception. We are already loved and valued.

He says to share those with our partner...here's my thing...for to not say, to hold resentment, to pretend isn't O&H.

In this covenant of love, we reaffirm our commitment...here is what you've said makes you feel loved, appreciated, respected and accepted. I got it. I trust you to tell me if it changes.

Then I choose to do or not do them. Sometimes, I don't agree...feel put upon or that my actions are futile. I feel manipulated...forgetting this is my highest priority, what I signed up for knowing you and you knowing me.

Sometimes, I get in my own way.

There's no bad guy here...neither one are wrong.

Stanley didn't do the thing he knew she wanted most. He came upon the Mother's Day setting...and knows Myrta prizes that card and photo...and that she showed delight and appreciation. Later, he perceived she discounted it ALL because it wasn't costly.

Think he's telling the truth or Myrta? How about they are both sharing their truth...he DOES feel discounted...and he DOES discount.

So does Myrta.

Not manipulation...O&H isn't all happy bows and clouds...we all know that...just reveals the heart of the matter...

Stanley to Myrta "I hurt when I think you doubt my love for you. I like who you are."

Myrta to Stanley "I know you know this is my thing, my symbol. I fear when you do the opposite that you are disapproving and discounting...and it feels like you're doing it to me."

I could never convince my stepmother that this symbol imprisoned her as well as gave her happiness. That it narrowed the funnel into her love bank...had to be certain cards, arriving early, and multiple ones...for all occasions throughout the year.

What she want, when she wanted it, in the way she wanted it.

Seemed at times like I had nothing to do with the process...that she didn't want me...just a dependable resource for cards.

And I learned that middle ground...the two extremes--gratitude for knowing her love language, loving acts (not playing the guessing game, not being told or shared with, Aph)...and knowing I could end our relationship for not doing those acts. My choice. (I'm not exaggerating the ending part...I was disowned for an entire year for not sending a Christmas card and calling instead.)

She identified and KNEW the loving act she could feel through to her bones. She told everyone what it was...her thing.

Is it any different, really, than someone who feels cared for when their spouse puts a napkin under their glass when they forget? Or being given a kiss goodbye in the middle of chaos, pressure and disruption? Just that the kiss come every morning, no matter what?

Would Myrta affirming consistently, "I see you did this and I see it as a gift to me today, of love. Thank you" be manipulating? Or O&H?

My stepmother passed on at 80 years old...her card requirement never wore out, didn't gross less or more...remained her symbol...her certainty.

Not about justifying giving to get, though I understand you heard it...and it's a trap we all fall back into, repeatedly...what I heard most was that Myrta is fluent in the love language of gifts...and it isn't Stanley's language...can he also see gifts of time, touch, presence, tiny acts of service and big ones as the language she speaks, also?

Can she see his acts of service, words of affirmation, his touch and affection as gifts, too? All of them? Value MORE when he does, though resistant, he does, anyway?

Sure. They have and do see...and then, not see them...not even realize we stopped looking...until we wipe off the buildup...see it for what it is...because you both know each other deeply and well...and maybe there's a final healing issue at work here, Stanley and Myrta...of forgiveness...how it's daily, for what we do and what we don't...and for what comes to pass and what doesn't...also acts of love. We reconcile often in marriage. Repeatedly.

What is "like" to Myrta? For me, it's "I know you enjoy me, what I say and who I am"...what is that for you, Aph? Did it hit a school-age thing in you, sound immature, like passing a note?

What if we pursue that thought, that Stanley has to like Myrta, he loves her...isn't that awfully close to, "He has to love me...sure wish he couldn't help but like me"?

Both sound to me like they want the exact same thing..."I wanna celebrate and be celebrated." They will get there...most of the time, they already do this...it's the weight and breadth of special occasions (thank goodness the many, many days in between those), trips them up.

He knows what pushes her buttons...comes from all the years together...and she knows what pushes his...which is why NOT pushing them, understanding and admitting our urge to do so (often linked to "you can't tell me what to do"), and share when we don't give into that urge, too.

Honesty is the antidote for control...up the honesty, lessen the fears...odd formula for humans...works wonders.

LA

I just dredged through this entire thread.

The two of you really need to go back into MC. You both have massive communication issues when dealing with each other. You both display a large amount of insecurity in your spouse's opinion of you, and the state of your marriage as it stands right now. I see a TON of passive agressive behavior mixed in all through here as well.

Seriously...rather than sit here and beat the snot out of each other both in person and on this forum...get a neutral third party who can really help the two of you sort through this and get it fixed before it escalates into something that can kill your love for each other.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you're not going to resolve this on your own, and this forum can't hold either of you accountable enough to help you both make the changes you need.

Have you discussed MC recently to sort through all of this? Did the two of you go through MC before to help deal with things?

Is OM still visiting Myrtas mother as a treasured guest ?

No he is not!

He has been out of the picture for over a year. There is no problem with the [censored]!

Out of our lives !

Stanley, is this true? D-Day was four, count ‘em, 4 years ago and OM didn’t stop sniffing around your doors until a year ago?

Arrrgh. Someone needs to enlighten that scumbag.

No wonder you feel insecure. I would be pissed no end!

And no wonder you feel you cannot entertain certain romantic gestures towards Myrta that even remotely look like the way he would act. I understand completely.

Myrta, you may need to prepare to accept Stanley's aversion to even appearing to act romantically like your OM did as an unavoidable the-rest-of-Stanley’s-life consequence of your adultery. You have conditioned him as thoroughly as if you are Pavlov and he a golden retriever.

I re-recommend you both call the MB counseling center.

For your info:

OM shows the classic traits of a stalker.

Following D-day he methodically befriended every member of Myrta's family. Myrta's mom adores the OM, but has no clue about the affair. Myrta's dad feels OM is a rat. However, all other family members like OM a lot. OM got a job for Myrta's nephew.

OM stalked Myrta every time she visited her mother. Because OM works in law enforcement he always knew when Myrta was on an airplane. I assume Myrta was flagged and all OM had to do was check the police headquarters computer.

Myrta visited her mom one year ago and OM knew her entire airplane itinerary. Because of this presumed surveillance Myrta was detained at the airport many times before she cleared security. They had to make calls and be extra careful with her.

On one occasion OM bought airplane tickets on the same returning flight when Myrta was returning home from visiting her mother. OM knew on which flight she was on as well as the destination. He intercepted Myrta at the airport terminal beyond the security gate and knew they would be a two hour layover in Miami so they could talk things over.

Myrta was a trooper and asked him to leave. She was quite forceful in her remarks and OM did not board the plane with her. In this regard Myrta has been great. I believe she truly understands the personality of this man quite well.

That is why I say "beware of someone that seem to be too charming".

Good for you, Myrta on evicting the OM from your life!

As for the feedback. I know you didn't come here to get help with the issue between you and your husband; but he did. And he is sincere in seeking that help. He seems truly bewildered as to how to please you.

Since you're here, and you seem to desire to stay married, even if you don't want our feedback on how you can improve the situation, as long as you choose to read, I can only hope you will read it and something might touch your heart that YOU can do something to help this situation.

Please soften your heart toward your husband with regard to gift giving.

The moment I found ways to lighten up on Kasey, my biggest emotional need at the time changed to one he could more easily meet.

My husband may not ever earn 150k per year; but then again he just might. But there would be no way he'd earn it with me complaining again about another bill collector calling, or something I wanted to do that we couldn't afford. And that's kind of like what you're doing with the cards, the wrapping paper, etc.

Understand this - I don't intend my feedback to be hurtful to you and for you to respond to sincere support as you have today with anger and defensiveness means you're festering on some kind of issue that would be much more healthy released. Please consider the feedback given throughout the day - especially the one about getting marriage counseling on the issue of communication to be especially critical.

Take what you like, leave the rest.

Again, have the two of you considered marriage counseling to sort out the issues you have with communication between the two of you?

I have raised the idea of counseling regarding this issue more than once.

I believe I understand what my wife Myrta is trying to say and I acknowledge to be timid with special celebrations. However, whenever Myrta tries to make her point it sounds frivolous. I know quite well it is not about frivolity. I am more concerned with the intensity of the situation. I prefer a more calm relaxed relationship.

I also have empathy for what is like to be insecure in a relationship. I was introduced to that sensation after d-day. Up to that point I had no concept about what it feels to be insecure and to have esteem issues. This sensation causes a great deal of turmoil and drives people to seek external validation.

Well, from my perspective the two of you have identified some issues that are clearly destructive in your marriage.

What you need now is a PLAN on how to deal with them. What you've been doing clearly hasn't been successful, as this thread has outlined well.

What's your "plan"...or plan to get a plan?

Stanley, I think if you called SH on your own you would benefit greatly.

Lead!

with prayers,

ed: Also, it's way past high time her parents knew. Everything.

There are many issues here and we had the same problem one year ago. I clearly remember I suggested therapy. Last year I posted under a pseudonym because I was rather embarrassed.


I think I understand the problem, however, I am unable to do what I need to do or perhaps I cannot meet the standard.

As I said in prior posts there are folks that are hard to please in some areas.

I have friends that always pick up a fight with any waiter at any restaurant at any time because they feel the service is poor. They take the so-called poor service very personally and acted highly offended. It may have to do with very high expectations, insecurity, or a need to put others down to elevate one's standing. A friend of mine says some folks need to feel important.

I was surprised to learn that there are a lot of couples that have issues with gifts at special occasions. In each instance there is almost always a combination of a somewhat insecure person and someone with great self esteem. As Mrs Wondering said----she wishes she could be like her H.

I used to believe that low self esteem could be cured by success and achieving great heights. However, this is not always the case. Sometimes the gardener has better self-esteem than the lawyer.

I can tell you that Myrta has some self-esteem issues and they will never go away. They are quite mild, but nevertheless they are there and I can relate to that. My self-esteem was once in the toilet and it is a terrible feeling.

I am not imagining the issue of self-esteem as this is something that Myrta explored at length with the OM (I read many emails about this topic). As is generally the case a person with low self-esteem has a hard tome accepting blame for any action and there is always some sort of explanation for one's failure. OTOH, a person with great self-esteem craves criticism.

Myrta's self-esteem has gotten quite good over the years and I believe was not much on an issue pre-affair. However, I can tell you that this sort of marital disaster can lower the self-esteem of both spouses.

ON my side I have been slowly demolished by my lack of success in terms of doing the right thing in special occasions. The typical response to this lack of success is to try less to avoid further embarrassment. Therefore, I am probably guilty of trying less hard.

This is true of human behavior - not just you.
You are having a normal response to aversion training within your marriage.

Aversion therapy - according to Wikipedia -

Aversion therapy is a form of psychiatric, mental health or psychological treatment in which the patient is exposed to a stimulus while simultaneously being subjected to some form of discomfort. This conditioning is intended to cause the patient to associate the stimulus with unpleasant sensations in order to stop the specific behaviour.



I do not think this is intentional, but is a function of a dual feedback mechanism that is conditioning both of you to behave in ways that displease each other.

You probably need a third party to help you negotiate a "win win" outcome. You don't want either of you feeling like they "won" this problem when they get their way.

When I want my dear H to do things that please me - I praise him when he does the smallest thing correctly - it increases his efforts and makes both of us happy.

But - my opinion is just that - my opinion

best to both of you

Pep

I like that Pep - it goes with the territory - we teach people how to treat us. But if we start out with the shock therapy instead of the "catch them doing something right, we tend to have someone who lacks the desire or motivation to please the shocker. After all, if they make the attempt and get shocked for it, and then shocked again on the next attempt, it's not long until we've turned a perfectly good and trainable husband into one that doesn't give a rip. It's kind of like the puppy who gets bought by someone who's always saying "Bad Dog" and takes a gregarious personality and turns them into a cowering shell of their former selves! I've seen it done - I'm a very bad dog trainer!

Stan-ley - Myrta's not going to get this - she's going to claim that we just hate her and see her as selfish and bad. When really, she's just a bad husband trainer.

So it's up to you to train yourself. Are you a reader? I have a couple of really good books to recommend if you are. And your first assignment, if you care to take it on is to stop taking Myrta's dissatisfaction personally. If you are correct in your assessment that Myrta's problems lie in her poor self-esteem (her posts don't lend themselves to that fundamental problem though), then you know her dissatisfaction has nothing to do with you.

But that leaves you free to do some things - like use a day planner and mark out all the special occasion days. And then, out of expression of your love for her, prepare for each day - in advance. That is specifically what she has asked you to do. If, after doing that, and you get the "shock" of negative feedback, remind yourself that your actions are YOUR expression of love for her and that is what you take personally - but her complaints or lack of appreciation or even mocking (the mink coat) are about HER. And when she is ready, she can work on that discontented spirit of hers.

In the mean time, you teach YOURSELF how to love her and grow your own confidence. If you don't take her personally, she can't cut you down. And you will feel your love grow for her because you have become a more loving person.

If you like to read, I have a great book to recommend that teaches HOW to not take something personally.

I don't know about Stan, Kayla, but I AM a reader and this sounds like a great book I COULD use.....so what is the name please????

not2fun

"The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz. Excellent book!

Stan-

Repectfully, all I see here is a laundry list of issues. Both you and Myrta appear great at pointing out each other's faults.

Now that you've identified the "issues"...

What are you going to do about them???

Simply pointing them out over and over won't fix the problems.

One of the reasons I still suggest that you INSIST (stop asking about it...set it up and schedule it yourself if you need to) on marriage counseling is to get a gameplan to RESOLVE the issues that are mentioned here. She sees things in you that she feels need to change...you see things in her as well. So either you both need to change behaviors, or you both need to change your expectations of each other...or (most likely) you both need to do a combination of these.

But the first step after identifying a problem is working out a way to fix it.

That still seems to be lacking as ya'll 's next step.

This is a problem that develops once a year when we have three celebrations in a row (Mother's Day, Anniversary, and my wife's birthday).

However, there is always an underlying suspicion that I am not meeting my wife’s emotional needs 100%.

I actually love MC, but I don’t think Myrta is that crazy about it.

Otherwise, Myrta is quite well and we seem to have quite a bit of harmony at this time. However, making out after a fight is not always useful. It can become a routine.

I suspect that we are going through fall out from the affair four years ago and this can cause tension.

So, you are planning to go through THIS again next year?

You know how to set Myrta free of her adultery once and for all! The two of you tell her parents what really happened, and who OM really is.

They you get a marriage coach trained in MB methods.

with prayers,

I cannot do that-------I will never tell anyone.

The revelation will destroy my wife. My children will suffer and I will probably get pressured to end the marriage by everybody I know.

I really don't see anything useful out of that. We were able to overcome this in total privacy (the only exception the anonymity of MB and our MC).

As Myrta said, the OM has been quiet for the last year and I suspect he finally gave up. He became a good friend of Myrta’s mother, but has not been around to visit her for a while.

So what I'm hearing is that you're aware of the issue(s)...but have no intent to do anything to solve them?

Do you want to have a better marriage, or do you want to leave things the way that they are now? If the latter...then why are you upset about how she reacts?

Again, this looks like passive aggressive behavior to me. You get angry/hurt about her actions...she does the same with you...but neither of you take the next step to SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

Bottom line...what are you hoping to get out of all of this if you have no desire to change anything?

I can certainly see why Myrta does not want anyone to discover what she did. Adulterer’s never do.

Opening the drapes and lifting the sash will help, you know.

Why do you care if other people will pressure you to end your M? Who are these people and why do you care what they want? This sounds odd to me.

They won’t really care anyway. If they truly care about either of you they will want to know what you want.

And how will these super people find out in the first place? You would be telling her parents in confidence, not taking out an ad in the local paper.

Myrta’s mother deserves to know the truth about her special friend, in any case. And her mother's H, for that matter! He will be back. I will bet on it. Will you?

Dr H recommends children be told in an age appropriate way. It will in the long run help protect their marriages.

With prayers,

How's it working for you Myrta? Every year it is the same routine. No matter what Stanley comes up with, it isn't good enough. Even the year that daughter helped, you found something to dislike; took you a while though, had to dig for it. Stanley bounces from never mind to asking what to do. It is a roller coaster for both of you. And there is no reason to suggest that it will end some day, unless one or both of you makes some changes.

It's real simple;

After a couple of days ruminating on the subject, which is kinda like a raccoon chomping on a bag of potato chips, I have come up with a theory. I believe that Myrta is unconsciously using this whole gift thing to place herself firmly back on the moral high ground, her pedestal. When you look at Stanley's success in life and Myrta's infidelity, this is an easy call, and a tough one to fix. Perception is reality for the one perceiving even in the face of objective differences on that reality from unbiased observers

Now it is that Stanley can figure out how to make Myrta happy or Myrta can change her perception. Yea, well maybe both can happen, and maybe elephants can be learn to tango.

Myrta, in easy terms, Stanley had you on an undeserved pedestal. I would bet good money on that. Guess what dear, both of you would probably like it if you were back on that high ground, but it won't ever happen; no reset button in life. So instead of you holding an unequal and superior power in the relationship, you are both on fairly even ground as it stands today. Get used to it, it is the right place to be for both of you.

Myrta, your husband took the biggest blow to his ego that any man can endure. In my opinion, your task is to build him back up. How do you accomplish that by finding fault with his gift giving?

And Stanley, give it one more shot. Next time a gift is needed, take two hours and go hunt one up yourself. Go through all sorts of contortions and either experience or make up a story of your gift buying adventure. Share the story with Myrta BEFORE she gets the gift either in writing or verbally.

I finally figured out that the dynamics of your relationship are very similar to what goes on between me and my wife from time to time. When I challenged her with my observations, it was like throwing cold water on a hot stove. Lots of sizzle, smoke and yelling, but the stove cooled down.

Larry

Helllllloooooooooo Myrta.....

You still mad?

Forget the last post I did and just focus on this question.


I think that is a more than fair question. You have no obligation to answer any question I pose. But maybe you can think about the question and answer it inside yourself.

Well, if you haven't decided to ignore MB and me.

Larry

Larry:

Sometimes Myrta goes in defensive mode.

I can also tell you that for a truly repentant WW life is no bed of roses. All my five kids are righteous and anti-infidelity to the core. They profess this philosophy quite often at the dining table and sometimes say very negative things about those that are unfaithful. I know these statements are very hurtful to my wife.

I don’t recriminate about infidelity anymore and have not done so for a very long time. However, it seems that others do this all the time and I know Myrta hurts inside. I know for a fact she would love to go back to a time when there was true pure innocence in our relationship; she has said this to me more than once. In the end a FBS suffers less than a repentant FWS.

Someone who cheats out of insecurity and the need to be validated by others can have a very tough time functioning as a repentant FWW. To be accepted back may seem like a magnificent act, but those insecurities that were there pre-affair will still be there.

For the record: I believe most folks cheat because they can cheat and because they want to cheat. Unmet ENs is not the main factor even though is commonly used by the WS as the main reason.

I agree. It’s a logical sounding face saving sleight-of-hand for a WS to hide behind: “ENs made me do it.”

Has its uses early in recovery. Wears mighty thin after a short while though.

With prayers,

Stanley, I like Myrta, always have. And she gave me some good advice way back some years ago, as did you. This current issue that has cropped up triggered my baloney detector, big time. It was also close to some issues between my wife and I of late, so I projected for right or wrong and gave the opinions I gave.

It seemed to me that Myrta is trying to use the gift issue as a ladder back on her pedestal. I caught my wife doing the same thing and I had a calmly spoken and specific but robust family discussion with her. Things are better now.

I certainly could be wrong. In any event, if that is Myrta's unconscious motivation, that doesn't really make her a bad person by any means any more than my wife is a bad person for wanting all the leverage she can get. After all, Myrta has to deal with you and my wife has to deal with me, both as best they can.

Larry

Larry

quote=Okay Stanley, so Myrta went off to sulk. That comes a no surprise whatsoever. She just hates to be wrong. Most women do and those who are raised to speak a Latin derived language more so than most, especially Spanish. Their temperment is one that I enjoy and life is never dull around them. Certainly they can LOVE passionately and that is a serious benefit.

Nope, I was not sulking Larry. I was in Disneyworld with my daughters and little grandaughter, having fun with them. Did not even think about MB or the "problem" at hand.



She is just gonna have to get used to walking around on level ground like the rest of us. QUOTE

I am very much used to walking "ground level" like the rest of you.

Ok Skywalker, just trying to get you to take a look.

See, I have an unspoken reason for posting way more than I should to you. It is that the personality you project in your writing very much mirrors that of my wife's. Way back in the early days of our recovery, I found you to be someone who was farther along the road to general recovery than my wife was and I could see where she might be down the road.

You helped me. But I don't think I ever said why in so many words. Now I said it. And I thank you.

And no, I don't expect you to answer my main question. No way would my wife answer the same question. But she would think about it. And that was all I really asked.

Recently, my wife got into an emotional endless loop over some issue or the other in our relationship. I posed a question for her just as I did for you that she never acknowledged, but in a few days, she did a reversal on her previous position and we found a POJA that satisfied us both.

The question I asked was really wasn't as important as the motivation it gave her to think outside of the emotional loop she was in so she could find her own reason for getting stuck going nowhere. Anyway, it worked for her, so I thought I would try it with you.

All the best.

Larry

[quote=_Larry_]Ok Skywalker, just trying to get you to take a look.

See, I have an unspoken reason for posting way more than I should to you. It is that the personality you project in your writing very much mirrors that of my wife's. Way back in the early days of our recovery, I found you to be someone who was farther along the road to general recovery than my wife was and I could see where she might be down the road.


Larry

I think all FWW have similarities , maybe thats why you can see some of your wife's traits on me.

The down the road part, I don't know about that.

The issue with the gift giving it has nothing to do with being a regular wife with no Affair history or a FWW. It has to do with how the husband gives those gifts to his wife. Of course my husband HIGHLY exagerates everything to appear my victim. But Larry, if I had being such an ungrateful woman all of our marriage, do you think he would had stay married to me? He has stayed with me because I treat him well "most" of the time.


Like I said before Stanley knows what I like, but he chooses to do the same things, that he has done before that had made me sad,angry,etc. Maybe some resentment from his part? He says no, I say yes. SO, it is really "He says, She says". Obviously here, the BS is always always right, never does anything wrong. So he will always have more fans here. LOL

I like you a lot too. You have always appear to be a very nice, considerate man to your wife. From the beginning you appear to be moving very fast in your recovery. Not feeling sorry for yourself. I am sure your wife's recovery was speedier because of your attitude.

How is your everyday life as a couple with your children,etc?

Oh good, you remember me.

Hokay, I buy that a BS can wave the flag of infidelity over something in a "poor me" context and of course they shouldn't do it. That does NOT have anything to do with long term recovery which should be based on avoiding love busters, something that SHOULD be a part of EVERY marriage with or without the long term effects of an affair. In THAT context, you can't wave the flag either.

Got it?

In other words, how are things working for you as things stand right now? Any progress? Has Stanley changed? I asked him to consider changing. What I see is that the two of you are in an emotional negative loop. Nothing he does is gonna be good enough, and he hasn't a prayer of being seen in a better light, so he keeps on doing the same thing, which is guaranteed to defeat him yet again. Both of you are beating your head on brick walls. How does it feel?

At the same time I agree with you, I also disagree with you if what I see is accurate. Is it true that you loved the gifts that you received from the OM? Is it true that you had a hard time giving them up? If that is so, you have a trigger issue. While it would be nice to put it all behind you forever, you and I know that isn't possible. An affair is truly the gift that keeps on giving. And even divorce doesn't change that fact. It is what it is. Not that you and Stanley are gonna divorce.

So yes, Stanley needs to alter his gift giving. And YOU need to praise his efforts and get a grip, controlling any negative thought at all in an effort to build him up should he give it a try. That sound good?

How are things here?

Oh my. Well, things are really great. The family is whole and only consumed with the usual conflicts that are a part of every healthy family with all of the usual chaos of kids and their agendas and a husband and a wife with the usual different approaches to living and loving and dealing with the kids and the challenges we face. We do better than most and not as good as some. There are ALWAYS conflicts. It is how you deal with those conflicts that determine how healthy a relationship is, in my opinion.

My wife fights dirty. She will use anything and everything to get her way. I can react in one of two ways, getting down at that level and going male on her or trying to keep the peace as best I can. So I do it both ways just to confuse her. We usually end up compromising and that is a good thing.

We have one lingering issue I have been trying to work up posting. It is pretty serious. It has nothing to do with recovery as such, my wife and I have a very, very strong relationship. It concerns the long lost relative, the only relative I have in this world and what to do about him. You may or may not remember that part. You have something sorta similar in that your OM was sucking up to your mother for a long time. The whole relative thing is so personally embarassing to me and to my wife to the point where I havn't found the courage to post as yet, and may never. I just don't know.

Here is one success. I finally was able to convince my wife that fathers and mothers love in different ways. This was over the male conflicts that oldest son and I have. She saw it as me not loving him. The resolution of that error in her thinking was actually from son, who simply told her to butt out of his relationship with me, that she didn't understand it and that she was his mother and I was his dad and of course we have different approaches.

I put him up to it. He was all for playing both ends against the middle and I explained how that was not to his real advantage. He is very smart and he got it. So the next time he and I got into a heated discussion and mom jumped in trying to "protect" him; we both turned on her. It was extremely funny. She got so mad she started throwing books at both of us. We both were laughing so hard, we got hit. She finally stomped off and sulked in the bathroom for 10 or 15 minutes while we high fived each other then returned to the disagreement.

My daughter calls me DAD. Manipulative little twerp

My youngest son is ADHD. So is the oldest. Youngest is now on adderol - low dosage, 5Mg a day. He is doing better. Wife is working her job, she graduated a year and a half ago as RN, BSN and she works Mother/Baby in a fairly large hospital. She also is cross trained in NeoNatal ICU, where she has the really sick babies. She loves her job if not all the politics of a hospital.

You think I was positive? Go take a look at Runnerboy65's thread. That guy is a real hero.

Larry

Oh good, you remember me. \:\)

==============================================================

Of course I remember you. You were the perfect BS any WW or FWW would want to encounter to recover from an Affair.






Hokay, I buy that a BS can wave the flag of infidelity over something in a "poor me" context and of course they shouldn't do it. That does NOT have anything to do with long term recovery which should be based on avoiding love busters, something that SHOULD be a part of EVERY marriage with or without the long term effects of an affair. In THAT context, you can't wave the flag either.=========================================================

Waving of flags? Well, I think either the WW or BS would wave flags once in a while. Is a human condition to do it, I think.




Has Stanley changed?

Well, he has done a couple of very cute gestures towards me. I liked them a lot. For instance, I went to Disney in Florida, and while I was going thru my suitcase I came upon a very pretty card e had put in there. With very pretty message and all.

Larry, while I was over there having fun with my daughters, I was studying myself and looking at my life , what God has given me. I am pretty lucky indeed, I came with a different outlook towards my husband, my life. I hope Stanley has seen my change.





At the same time I agree with you, I also disagree with you if what I see is accurate. Is it true that you loved the gifts that you received from the OM? Is it true that you had a hard time giving them up? If that is so, you have a trigger issue. While it would be nice to put it all behind you forever, you and I know that isn't possible. An affair is truly the gift that keeps on giving. And even divorce doesn't change that fact. It is what it is. Not that you and Stanley are gonna divorce.
================================================================

No, I did not loved the gifts OM gave me . I was in the fog when I did not want to get rid of them. Not because I loved the gifts, but because I was into OM still. His gifts were meaninless to me after I woke up from the fog, believe that!!



Truly, I think the problems we have, are just normal problems that are blown out of proportion here. People exagerate a lot for the effect of what they are saying. Couples dissagree, fight every day, not because of any agenda between them. Even you, had said here, that you had fights about gifts , women in general (generalizing here) like to complain once in a while. I am not an ungrateful woman.




Anyways, please elaborate about your problem about your only relative. I don't understand the problem at hand with you and your wife.

Like people say here. We are all faceless people here trying to help one another.


Myrta

I am not at all sure my wife would agree with you that I was the perfect guy with whom to find recovery from an affair. I was pretty rough with her in extremely specific and exact language about her choices. I didn't scream or yell, I just said what was on my mind. One very key thing I said to her was, "Ok WW, I have invested a ton of myself making sure you had the opportunity to be the best you can be in life instead of holding you back as your father and your previous relationship was intent on doing." "So my payback is for you to go out and do the most hurtful and stupid thing you could do with your life and at the same time, risk our kids to an uncertain future." "I am not impressed."

In effect, I told her she could grow up or get on down the road. She elected to grow up. And I am glad she did. I did try to help her anyway I could and frankly, I expected her to help me as well. My best friend in life is a shrink and his help was invaluable for both of us. He protested loud and long about the simple fact we were not being counseled by him because he didn't do that with those he knew socially or who were friends, then he coached us anyway.

If you remember, I had the attitude that just because my wife did something without honor, that had nothing to do with me. I took an oath, a vow when we got married. I honored that vow even in the face of what she did. Two wrongs do not get it right. I also did what I did for the kids. They didn't deserve the uncertain future they would have had if I had bailed on my wife. And I did it for me. Well, I did it for me and my wife, once. There are no other chances. As you probably remember, I courted her to a degree in an effort to restart our relationship and build a new one. I am not my wife. Just because she tried to screw up her life, my life and the kid's lives didn't mean I had to make it worse.

She had her affair with this long lost relative who showed up looking for family. He is my only living relative except for his son. She says she cost me that relationship by the choices she made. She is right. It was a classic case of the XX steps to infidelity. And it looks as if he was not as emotionally involved as he said as we found out later on. The issue is that I would like a relationship with the son. But to do that, I have to have one with the father. And there is no reset button in life. I haven't worked up exactly what to say and how to say it in a post I could present for opinions and help. I may never, I just don't know.

Do read runnerboy65 thread. That guy is something else.

Larry

(If you remember, I had the attitude that just because my wife did something without honor, that had nothing to do with me. I took an oath, a vow when we got married. I honored that vow even in the face of what she did. Two wrongs do not get it right. I also did what I did for the kids. They didn't deserve the uncertain future they would have had if I had bailed on my wife. And I did it for me. Well, I did it for me and my wife, once. There are no other chances. As you probably remember, I courted her to a degree in an effort to restart our relationship and build a new one. I am not my wife. Just because she tried to screw up her life, my life and the kid's lives didn't mean I had to make it worse.)==================
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This paragraph is extremely important in the face of infidelity. Two wrongs don't make it right. You still honor your wife even though she did the most horrible thing anyone can do to another.


You were very firm with her, but without insults and bringing her more down. Lots of BS make their WWs feel really bad, and it takes any chance of recovery away.





(She had her affair with this long lost relative who showed up looking for family. He is my only living relative except for his son. She says she cost me that relationship by the choices she made. She is right. It was a classic case of the XX steps to infidelity. And it looks as if he was not as emotionally involved as he said as we found out later on. The issue is that I would like a relationship with the son. But to do that, I have to have one with the father. And there is no reset button in life. I haven't worked up exactly what to say and how to say it in a post I could present for opinions and help. I may never, I just don't know.
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Larry, how close was this relative to your wife? What son are you talking about? DId your wife had a son with this relative?


There is definetely no reset button in life. Gosh, I wish there was one sometimes. To erase all the wrongs that I have done. But we have to live with the stupid choices we made in life. Like my husband said, it is pretty hard to live with yourself after doing something so horrible. But we must go on with life and try very hard to do as best as "we can".


"
I still had no chance to read "runnerboy65 thread". I will later on.

Myrta

Well, I dunno about honoring my wife so much

I honored my vows and my dedication to the family. We have three kids, one mine biologically and two from her previous marriage who I have raised since they were five and three. They are my kids in all but genetic material. The youngest calls me daddy and the older one wants to, but he is male and has the usual male issues. He tells everyone but me I am his dad.

It seemed to me that my wife was punishing herself enough and I saw no need to increase the dosage. Regreting the choices we make in life doesn't stop the pain we inflict on others. She regrets the choice she made, understands more or less why she did what she did and now protects her weaknesses. It was a unique circumstances where the OM in question was able to get within her boundaries because of who he was. Knowing her as I do, I find it unlikely that she would have been vulnerable to anyone else.

The relative is mine. No, my wife did not have a child by him. He has a son from a previous marriage of his own. I saw no harm in his building a close relationship with my wife, foolish me, and really sad. The consequences of that sordid mess are more than normal. For me, it was a double betrayal. The two people I trusted most in this world put horns on my head. That they regret (now) so doing and the long term damage, that doesn't mitigate the simple fact that both of them made the choice and all of us, including them, must pay the price for the rest of our lives. Affairs really are the gift that keeps on giving, no reset button in life.

On the other hand, a little ray of sunshine. My wife is a better person for it. She discovered and removed parts of the way she thought of herself and now is way more effective in her ability to understand her vulnerabilities and what happens if she doesn't watch what she does. She really grew up and became a full blow adult through the adversity she created for herself and the rest of us. She also found a path to continue her growth as a person. I dunno if it was worth the price, but it is what it is, so life goes on.

Larry

Larry:

Once the fire is over and the ashes are not warm anymore the BS eventually finds peace and happiness. This is probably related to the fact that all the pain and turmoil was not self-inflicted and one never tried to hurt another person.

IMHO, the only sad part was having a funeral for everything that was assumed to be the components of a great marriage.

Lets look at a repentant WS with a conscience:

1. It must be brutal for the WS to acknowledge the destruction of a spouse and the children of the marriage. Lets not forget that the kids are also betrayed.

2. At the same time the repentant WS throws the OP under the bus and the pain of the OP may be of major proportions. If the WS has a conscience this must be a difficult task.

3. Do not forget how the repentant WS must go NC and endure the heavy duty pain of withdrawal.

4. How about the self induced injury of the WS to her (or his ) own self-esteem.

In other words, a WS suffers from many different angles and I cannot comprehend what it would be to destroy and OP, BS, children, and to endure withdrawal at the same time.

That is why that at this point I am farther ahead than my wife in recovery and she cannot stand a husband that is calm and happy. I harmed no one and I did not cause injury to myself. In retrospect, there was nothing I could have done differently.

What do you think?

I think Myrta has been heroic in her actions and she must now endure a much harder path to recovery. Not easy been a repentant WS.

Well, guess everyone is different. Cognitive dissonance assures that. After the funeral, then the task of building a new relationship on the ash pile of the old one can commence.


Wife here said she had no idea she could hurt someone as much as she did. In some ways she has developed a complex, thinking that she has hurt more than her share of males. For this reason, she sometimes will self depreciate to the point of saying that she must not be a very nice person. She does recognise just how close she was to making life very difficult for our kids, plus the son of the OM "Was" injured in a way. Hurting kids is NOT where she is as a person and was one of the harder blows she had to absorb.


Wife attempted to mitigate his pain through contact for a few days after telling him to take a hike and not come back, then she went no contact more or less for good. She wants me to have some sort of relationship with him, last living relative and all, so she sent him a notice that we might move and a couple of pics of our son. That was a month or so ago. I hit the roof and she backed off, this time for good, so she says.

She is also aware that he found new love not too long after he got the heave ho here, and then got married again a few months later. I think it hit home with her that he was not as emotionally involved as was she, just like I had been telling her. He recovered pretty fast, so it appears. Reading her, I could tell it was apparent that she considered herself a complete fool. Except for me, her male picker isn't what it should be.

Any lingering pain from throwing him under the bus was replaced by completely different emotions.


Good points. Wife here DID go through withdrawal and it wasn't easy. I courted her in an attempt to get her to transfer her PEA addiction over to me as much as possible. It worked about 80% of the way and that was a good thing.

And oh my, did she take a hit. She has self-esteem issues anyway because of her raising and teenage issues. I had spent a great deal of emotional capital building her up. And I was NOT a happy camper that she turned self destructive. Anyway, out of the blue a few months ago, she remarked that about the time of the affair, she woke up and realized that she was really gonna be the NURSE she always wanted to be and not only that, she was going to be a BSN. Considering that her family background is a bunch of undereducated folks who are nontheless smart, she thinks that she couldn't handle the success path. That one I don't understand very well, but my buddy the shrink says he does and that is good enough for me.

Note, for whatever it is worth, she nailed the NCLEX with 75 questions. And she was number two in her class of 66 that started and 18 who finished. The only one who beat her didn't have three kids, was an older lady with a PHD in chemistry and nothing to do all day but study.



Well, I have provided a bit of personal stuff to demonstrate that everyone is different. And everyone is the same. I do agree that a repentant wayward has a hard time dealing with recovering their self esteem. My buddy the shrink has a point he makes that has helped wife here quite a bit. He says;

"You are who you are. You may not always like how you got to be you, but there is no reset button in life. Accept the mistakes that you have made and that have been made for you because you cannot change the fact of living and learning. Be the best person you can be and enjoy the life you have; now that you understand consequences, think before you mess yourself or someone else."

I changed the last sentence a bit to pass the monitors

If Myrta is still playing "kick me," she needs to quit. I will recommend that hanging out on this support forum and helping others is a great way to redemption and a feeling of self worth. Digging deep to find the wisdom to help someone floundering around in affair hell is a good way to feel that something useful has come out of the swim in the cesspool.

Great wisdom Stanley, I hope others read your comments about the pain of a WS. Pain is still pain even if self inflicted.

Larry

That is why that at this point I am farther ahead than my wife in recovery and she cannot stand a husband that is calm and happy. I harmed no one and I did not cause injury to myself. In retrospect, there was nothing I could have done differently.
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Larry

This is the problem here,,,,,my husband statement above. He is saying that I cannot stand a husband that is calm and happy. That is completely NOT true. I want him to be aware that the marriage CANNOT go back to what it was before the Affair. And he has completely fall into the old Stanley....kinda of aloof, complacent.
A marriage needs constant care and affection. Not only saying "I love you" but also showing in actions. Like JL said before Love is a verb, it has to be shown with actions. Just because you are calm and happy you don't sit back to look at the scenery, without doing anything.


I really did not mean to cause harm to anyone, and I really thought I was not. I don't like to be reminded in "subtle" ways that I harmed someone.

I am NOT thinking all the time of four years ago. Most of the time, it seems like it was a dream or a nightmare that happened.






The relative is mine. No, my wife did not have a child by him. He has a son from a previous marriage of his own. I saw no harm in his building a close relationship with my wife, foolish me, and really sad. The consequences of that sordid mess are more than normal. For me, it was a double betrayal. The two people I trusted most in this world put horns on my head. That they regret (now) so doing and the long term damage, that doesn't mitigate the simple fact that both of them made the choice and all of us, including them, must pay the price for the rest of our lives. Affairs really are the gift that keeps on giving, no reset button in life.
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Well, that is a relief that your wife did not have any child with OM. But I understand your double pain, with your relative and your wife.
But remember Larry, the affair happened not because of YOU, but because of your wife and OM. Their choices, their doing.

I don't understand why Affairs have to be the gift that keeps on giving. I mean, there has to be a time, that the "reset" button stays down, and you need to leave it down for good. We cannot keep on resetting forever!!!



Myrta

Hi Myrta !


Dr Harley says :


And most BS can vouch for that. It is a life-redefining experience.

Myrta you are clearly upset that Stanley doesn't give you the gifts you desire, not put the effort in you desire, how much more upset do you think you would experience if Stanley did what you did behind your back ? If you can't get over his clumsy gifting how then would you expect to get completely over him cheating on you ?

As desperately as you want to experience no consequence of your affair Myrta, the effect of it was so big, its going to take a lot to get there I think.

That is why affairs are the "gift that keeps on giving".

Stanley...you definitely have my sympathies.

Myrta...you want a GIFT neatly wrapped...how about a husband that is willing to put up with you...I would bet there are not many men out there that would have done that.
How about a husband that was willing to stand by you despite your OM being a constant in your lives until a year ago...and who knows when again!
Hallmark...wow...the epitome of caring. Some other idiot writing a sentiment to your spouse...sorry Myrta..your husband has given you a present every single day. It's called "your marriage" be thankful for that. Maybe more would follow if you were a bit more understanding of THIS gift.



No, I guess you don't understand.

Stanley, again...my sympathies.

Bob

Thank you for your input. I do understand perfectly what you are saying. It is hard to get over an Affair. I know..

I hope you are doing well or I should say better with your wife. Is she expressing more to you? Are you happier than months ago>?

Myrt

I can see you are still as "nice" as ever.

Thanks for your comments.

nice to see you haven't changed a bit either.

My post is not about recrimination or rehashing of old material.

I am simply trying to put myself in Myrta's shoes so I have a better understanding.

As I said many times before she has been heroic and a trooper when it comes to a wife that has done everything to achieve recovery. As I said four years later I feel quite good.

However, it bothers me that my calm and happiness is interpreted as being a bad husband that does not care. There is something rewarding about being in a very stable loving relationship with no stress.

The only source of stress has been this time of the year because I don’t seem to get it right.


Larry:

As for my wife’s OM:

Myrta is not the type of woman OM would normally date in open daylight. In an open relationship OM would be dating women from a completely different category. When Myrta threw OM under the bus (and rightly so) he was devastated and I seriously doubt he will ever recover. It is like being a billionaire for two years and suddenly having to go back to a homeless shelter. There is no recovery from that. That explains the persistent pathologic stalking.

I know any WW has concern from breaking the heart of a single OM. However, for an OM this can be categorized as self-inflicted pain. I hope Myrta understands she is not responsible for the misery of OM.

What I am trying to say is that life for a truly repentant WW is not easy because there are daily reminders everywhere---including adulterous movies, TV shows, comments by family and friends, etc.

I have to reaffirm that Myrta is a great wife. Her greatness has been a blessing for our family and that cannot be disputed. Anyone can make a mistake and that does not change the good a person has done for a lifetime. In essence that good is the basis for a strong healthy recovery.

But Myrta, calm and happy is WHO Stanley is. Get it? And yea, I caught his remark, just I choose not to say anything unless you did. Now why did I know you would

You are projecting on him who you want him to be instead of enjoying who he is or rather, how you want him to express his affection for YOU instead of how he does it. And I would bet that this is just one side of Stanley and you love other parts, right? With real love, you love because you really KNOW the other person and you love them, sometimes in spite of a few parts that are not perfect. With an infatuation, you love the other person without knowledge of who they really are. That is the difference.

I can imagine that with your background, you prefer someone who is a bit more overtly passionate, right? Oh Myrta, I can see the passion in Stanley for you and all you mean to him. I can smell his passion, feel his passion, recognise his passion. His passion for you is stark and obvious. Er, just not always to you.

He is doing it in HIS way, not the way you EXPECT to see him express that passion. The way you get out of THAT is to open yourself to a simple fact, people express themselves in different ways and Stanley isn't YOU, he his, er, Stanley. In my opinion, you might not appreciate the depth that can sometimes be represented by the subtle. Stanley is oft times subtle and you have to tune in to him, IMHO. Again, I think this is a cultural thing.


Ah, but you don't understand something. For Stanley, YOU are the scenery. He Loves Your Passion in part because YOU are different from HIM. He appreciates YOUR passion, he needs YOUR passion because YOU are so DIFFERENT from him. Problem is, you want him to be YOU instead of HIM. Take a deep breath and reflect a moment. Stanley doesn't compete with the real YOU. And in Stanley, you have an audience. You are the game and he is the cheerleader.


Maybe the reminders are your own.

Myrta, you are very good at projecting instead of accepting. This is a byproduct of who you are and is by no means a negative. You are who you are and basically a very good person. I know you didn't mean to do harm, that is why you are a FWW instead of a WW. And yes, it was a nightmare, where your emotions got out of control. Heck of a feeling, isn't it?

Stanley loves you, he loves who you are. He was able to recover and start a new relationship because of who he is. If he had been a more passionate person instead of a reflective person, he might have chosen to move on down the road, so who he is clearly is of benefit to YOU.



Thank you. You are right.


Life is what it is. There is NO WAY for a reset button to work, so forget about it, quit yearning for the impossible. What you CAN do is build a NEW relationship that works. This means accepting who you are and that you are a different person than you were then because you have lived and learned. Further, you have to accept Stanley, warts and all. Demanding that Stanley be different than who he is has two flaws, the first of which is that female who you are, you are NOT going to change him. Women think they can change a male. You can't. Give that idea up.

Secondly, why on earth would you want Stanley to be you? See above

Again, as I see in Stanley's writings, he loves who you are and he is willing to love who you are as a whole person, and not be too much focused on those personality details that he doesn't particularly care for. While you might hate to feel that maybe Stanley has a way of loving that might benefit you, trust me, many, many people love the way Stanley does. It is not bad.

Larry

Of course you did. You are a reflective person. And that can be a very good thing. And you are a subtle person, which medc may not understand.



Sure, I get it. Females oft times choose some dolt to have their affair with exactly the way Myrta did. I don't understand exactly WHY, just that it is what it is.

He did it to himself. And he did it without honor or integrity. He deserves what he got. But at the same time, I understand Myrta. Oft times this "Beneath me" affair has "parent/child" overtones from the female POV, and females are famous for blaming themselves when a child makes wrong choices, or at least feeling bad when they have to do what is necessary.



Two things.

This is why I asked Myrta if she was creating the reminders instead of projecting that it was you and secondly, I have no doubt that you think Myrta is great.

I am going to be out of town for a week plus starting in the morning.

All the best.

Larry

Myrta,

I don't think there is a reset button. Frankly, I am not sure either of you want to reset this back to before the affair. Look at all you two have learned.

I was thinking about the gift thing abit Myrta. I really think you should reassess your needs in this situation.

When I step back and replay what I have read in my mind, I don't think this is about gifts, about cards, or about wrapping paper. You very much need something from Stanley that you are not receiving. Whether what you need is realistic or even within Stanley's ability to deliver I don't know. Frankly neither do you. But you need to know. So that the two of you can work out what he can do and what he cannot do.

I do think your present response to his gift giving is a real love buster to him, because you are rejecting him again. Yes, that is what I am saying. You rejected him when you had the affair with OM and you rejecting him when you find his gifts inadequate. Notice that last word? It was chosen carefully. Guess what Stanley felt when he found out about your affair. Yup, inadequate.

I have a son who is now engaged. And a daughter who is scheduled to be in several weddings for some college roommates. The subject of gifts, registeries (sp), etc. has been in interesting topic of discussion. The kids asked my W and I about the gifts we received for our wedding many decades ago. We started laughing because some of the ones we received really were strange, but we remember them,and the people that gave them fondly. Why because they were so off the wall. But what my W and I both told the kids is something that you need to really think about. A gift is just that a "gift". It has no strings, it is not required, and it represents someone willingly offering you something for you pleasure, laughter, use, etc.

Stanley doesn't have to give you gifts. It is not in the wedding vows. It is not in law, it is written no where that gifts must be given. Whether he delivers it in a paper bag, or wrapped in the most expensive of wrapping paper, it is what is inside that counts. It is not what is inside the BOX however, it is what is inside his heart. Same goes for the card. I do have some understanding with regard to the card thing. My W loves cards. I do think she would rather have the card than a gift sometimes, because to her the card says more and is the gift. Why I don't know. But I will tell you I have saved many of the cards my W has given me over the years.

So why don't step back and really ask yourself what it is you need from Stanley that somehow the card represents. Perhaps the gift itself is really unimportant to you, but the real gift is the card or his written expression of love. If this is really true, Stanley needs to hear it.

Stanley then needs to develop a better strategy for dealing with this. Perhaps occasionally taking a Sat. or Sun and going somewhere with lots of cards and buy the ones he likes that express his feelings for the various events coming up in the next 6 months. He knows the dates, he knows what these dates signify and frankly his sentiments should and probably are the same with regard to you over long periods of time so when he buys the cards is irrelavent. But, mainly he can select the cards when HE has time to reflect on them and find ones that express his feelings.

If he were to do that, would you be happier Myrta? THat is something you need to figure out.

Hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

LARRY

Your post blew me away! Amazing words of wisdom. Thank you so much for your beautiful post.






QUOTE=You are projecting on him who you want him to be instead of enjoying who he is or rather, how you want him to express his affection for YOU instead of how he does it. And I would bet that this is just one side of Stanley and you love other parts, right? With real love, you love because you really KNOW the other person and you love them, sometimes in spite of a few parts that are not perfect. With an infatuation, you love the other person without knowledge of who they really are. That is the difference.
==============================================================

I think that what you are saying here is very true.. I have always told Stanley over the years, the things I like about him. And those things are still there in him. He is him, and I am Me. We are both very different from each other, and thats why our marriage is so long. Even though I have always had so many flaws, he still loves me. Even though I sometimes don't like the gifts he gives, I still love him too.








QUOTE=Ah, but you don't understand something. For Stanley, YOU are the scenery. He Loves Your Passion in part because YOU are different from HIM. He appreciates YOUR passion, he needs YOUR passion because YOU are so DIFFERENT from him. Problem is, you want him to be YOU instead of HIM. Take a deep breath and reflect a moment. Stanley doesn't compete with the real YOU. And in Stanley, you have an audience. You are the game and he is the cheerleader.
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This was so beautiful. Those words you say about me being my husband's scenery. Every time I go away for a few days, to visit my Mom or just last week that I was in Disney, he tells me that the house is so different without me in it. When I am in my house you can feel my presence, because I am passionate. My husband has always being more quiet and low key. He likes that I am this way, so opposite of him.

When I was in Disney with our daughters, I go in rollercoasters, and I walk all the parks like I am one of them. I like those kinds of activities, Stanley does not. Last time we went to Disney with him, he left the park 15 minutes after entering. We are different from each other, and that's why the attraction remains after all these years.







QUOTE=Stanley loves you, he loves who you are. He was able to recover and start a new relationship because of who he is. If he had been a more passionate person instead of a reflective person, he might have chosen to move on down the road, so who he is clearly is of benefit to YOU.



Yes, this could be very true. If the it had been me on his shoes, maybe I would have left him. I would had been impulsive, and terminate the marriage, and again, it is because we are so different.

He reflected and analize the outcome, if he had walked out on me. He thought of our years together,our marriage, our history, and our five children. They would be so devastated if our marriage ends.

So, it is a good thing, for my advantage, that my husband is the way he is.

Thank you for opening my eyes . I really appreciate your input into our situation and marriage.






QUOTE=Again, as I see in Stanley's writings, he loves who you are and he is willing to love who you are as a whole person, and not be too much focused on those personality details that he doesn't particularly care for. While you might hate to feel that maybe Stanley has a way of loving that might benefit you, trust me, many, many people love the way Stanley does. It is not bad.
==============================================================

You know sometimes, a person reads and filters and gets what it is convenient for them. That is probably what I had been doing, just focusing in a few words, taking them out of context. I need to see more the whole picture of my husband, my marriage, myself.

I know many people love the way he is. Even my sisters tell me that he gives them such sense of peace when he talks to them.

I am a lucky FWW to have him. I am very lucky to have people like you,JL, Mr.Goodstuff, to give me,us, good ,sound advice .

Thank you Larry!!

Myrta

Just Learning

QUOTE=When I step back and replay what I have read in my mind, I don't think this is about gifts, about cards, or about wrapping paper. You very much need something from Stanley that you are not receiving. Whether what you need is realistic or even within Stanley's ability to deliver I don't know. Frankly neither do you. But you need to know. So that the two of you can work out what he can do and what he cannot do.=================================
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I really don't know what is it I want...But yes, I do get rather frustrated when I see I am not getting "what I want"

I do care much more for the importance he gives the gift, even if it is something not expensive. I love the cards with a special meaning in them. He has given beautiful ones before, and I still have them . I have many cards from previous years.




QUOTE=I do think your present response to his gift giving is a real love buster to him, because you are rejecting him again. Yes, that is what I am saying. You rejected him when you had the affair with OM and you rejecting him when you find his gifts inadequate. Notice that last word? It was chosen carefully. Guess what Stanley felt when he found out about your affair. Yup, inadequate.
============================================================

I don't feel I am rejecting him again, but yes, I am wrong thinking that. I want to be able to tell him how I feel without him been hurt in any way. He has told me sometimes he does not like my gifts. I don't get hurt. I get them back, return them. It would offend me more, for him to keep the gifts and never use them. I dont want him to feel inadecuate in any way.




MOre later, Gotta go

Myrta,

But, here is the point. With regard to how he feels, it is HIS feelings that count. Whether you think he should feel this way does not count. Don't you see.

Your response to the same action on his part can and will be different because you are a different person. Further, you KNOW he loves you and has always loved you. He does not have that perspective with regard to you loving him, thus the rejection.

But, the point is you need to figure out what it is you really need from him. You want to tell him how you feel, but you have not tried to tell him what you NEED. He can do nothing for your feelings, but he can try to meet your needs better.

Personally, I doubt your needs are cards and gifts. You are just rejecting his gifts because you are frustrated at him. Yet, your frustration should be directed at yourself for your failure to understand yourself well enough to explain it to him so that he understands. Stanley is not a dumb man, but he is NOT a mindreader.

Further, you have the additional problem that his profession is his life, in ways it is his mistress. You compete for his time, his focus, but there are no other women in his life, save you and your daughters. You like the fruits of his efforts and probably enjoy the benefits of a husband that loves what he does. He is basically happy and self-sufficient because of that happiness.

Therefore, it is my opinion that you need to know yourself better than many here. Why? You have to be more explicit in your explanations of what you need. Yet, you also have to understand that what you need will not bring you happiness, just the ability to be happy.

Myrta, I know you are a lovely woman, a good mother, and for the most part a great W. It is clear that Stanley loves you very much and is strongly protective of his family. The issue is: What are you missing, what do you think Stanley can do to make you whole, if not happy? What will bring security to your life on other levels than financial?

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Just learning


QUOTE=Personally, I doubt your needs are cards and gifts. You are just rejecting his gifts because you are frustrated at him. Yet, your frustration should be directed at yourself for your failure to understand yourself well enough to explain it to him so that he understands. Stanley is not a dumb man, but he is NOT a mindreader.
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I am very much frustrated with myself. I ask myself, "why am I doing this?" You know JL...I am scared...scared that one day my husband will realize he can do better than me....scared that he will realize that I should had not been forgiven for my Affair. Scared that he will tell my children one day what I did. I am scared of many things, then I get frustrated and I take it out on him, with the gifts. Does that make any sense to you?

I failed my husband BIG TIME with the stupid affair, and Now 4 years later I am more scared than ever to lose my husband, because of it.



QUOTE=Further, you have the additional problem that his profession is his life, in ways it is his mistress. You compete for his time, his focus, but there are no other women in his life, save you and your daughters. You like the fruits of his efforts and probably enjoy the benefits of a husband that loves what he does. He is basically happy and self-sufficient because of that happiness.============================================
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He is a very focus man with his work. He uses his brain a lot for his work, he gets tired mentally from it. I do tend to compete with his work sometimes, and again get frustrated when he does not call me many times thru the day. Most of the time he calls me several times a day, even amidst his business.





QUOTE=Myrta, I know you are a lovely woman, a good mother, and for the most part a great W. It is clear that Stanley loves you very much and is strongly protective of his family. The issue is: What are you missing, what do you think Stanley can do to make you whole, if not happy? What will bring security to your life on other levels than financial?
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JL...I know for the most part, that Stanley loves me, but, will he stop loving me because of what I did? Will it come a day down the road, that he will realize that he should throw me to the curve, and look for another woman, without an A on her forehead?

I am very lucky to have him , to be financially secured with him, to have our family, all our daughters still live with us. We do everything together, church,movies,shopping,eating,etc. We are very closed knit family, and I am scared that one day I might lose everything because of what I did.

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Your advice and input have ALWAYS been out of this world. I thank you for it, and would still love to meet you one day. We are planning a California trip next month, maybe we can meet with you? Our son lives close to Hollywood and we are planning a trip there.


Thank you again.

Myrta

Oh, Myrta, you and Stanley have always been my favorites. Especially you. I've been reading this thread and really didn't know what to say. Prayers to you and your husband.

Believer-

You have to be one of the most compassionate BS of this site.

Thank you so much for your prayers. You are an amazing person!


Myrta

I think Stanley already knows he can do better than you, Myrta.

But, Myrta, when will you finally realize he does not want anyone else, better than you or not better than you? You are not seeing the forest for the trees here. He loves and wants you. Hasn’t he proven that already many times over? Appears obvious to me from way over here on the left coast even.

As for your actions making sense, no not really. Maybe about the same amount of sense as your adultery in the first place. So stop, now. Don’t let it escalate any further nor go on any longer.

Do you wish someone had told you to stay away from OM, way back when? Well, you are now hearing many people tell you to stop what you are doing this time. Listen to them!

I doubt you will lose everything you hold dear because of what you did. Stanley has already proven that will not happen. If you lose everything it will be because of what you are doing now.

One of the things that strikes me here is your Big Ugly Secret is eating away at you. The truth will always set you free, Myrta. Talk to your parents. Tell them what happened. I bet you will receive all the forgiveness you need. I bet you will begin to let these behaviors go.

With prayers,

Oh Myrta,

This really so easy. Have you really ever told Stanley what you just told me/(and a few thousand other people )? Seriously, have you.

With your indulgence and Stanely's let me answer your questions for him if you will.
You said



Ok, I don't want to let the cat out of the bag, but here goes. Stanley KNOWS he can do better than you. My W knows she can do better than me. You know you can do better than Stanley. Let's be realistic here. There are billions of people on this planet split about 50/50 male/female. There are many people that at any given time that could be better for us.

BUT, Stanley chose you. He bestowed his love on you, as you did him. You bonded, made vows, and have children together. Believe me he knows, but he also knows that you ARE PART OF HIM now and to give you up would be like losing an arm or a leg. A large part of him, and his life would be gone.

Myrta if he could not forgive you he would have had to leave. He has forgiven you. He will never forget, but his forgiveness is there for you accept it. It is his gift to himself and you. It is a gift because it may or may not be deserved, but it is something HE wanted to give you. His real gifts to you are more than you seem to realize, they are him saying over and over again, "I forgive you. I love you." and that is why your reactions hurt him so. No matter how little time, how stupid the wrapping, what you are getting is more than money, you are receiving notification that you are forgiven.

I doubt he will ever go back on his forgiveness of you. Your goal is to give him fewer things for him to forgive in the future. The sad thing is what he wants is for you to reach into his soul and love him, not be frustrated or worried, or even feel guilty.



No it does not make sense, but I do understand you. Myrta, I would bet good money, if he told your children they would be hurt, they would be surprised, and then they would love you. In fact, they may love you and Stanley even more than they do now. You want to know why? Because of what you two have overcome.

I'll tell you a story. When I was a kid, my Dad was my hero. He could do no wrong. When I got older, I figured out he was human. He did not get to the very top of his profession. He worried alot, he feared for us kids because he knew he could not save us from ourselves. He was not perfect in many ways and oddly he knew this better than anyone. We discussed these things in his later years.

But, an odd thing happened Myrta. Instead of being disappointed in my Dad, I found that I respected him even more. Because given all of his preceived weakness and failures, he had achieved so much in his life. He had affected people in very positive ways, he was a man people remembered and went to with tough problems. I learned to love my Dad more not because of his successes but because of all he overcame to acheive them.

I am firmly convinced if your daughters ever find out about your affair, this will happen. Further, it will offer them hope to work through tough times if they themselves ever failed their spouse or their spouse ever failed them. You don't know this but you and Stanley are a success story, one that your daughters might really benefit from hearing. Kids think in black and white. Most people come here thinking I will never accept or forgive an affair, and then see what happens. With effort, with honesty, with love, the marriages are rebuilt.

Frankly, Myrta what you worry about is something that could be a huge help not a big loss.


Yup you did. You failed him for the length of your affair and you were failing him during a good bit of your recovery. BUT, you are not failing him now. You are right to worry about your H, but not for the reason you think. My opinion: you might lose him when he decides he is NOT good enough for YOU. When he feels that you will not accept his forgiveness, his love, and yes even his pain. You see why I weighed in on this gift thing? It was not about gifts of the sort you were thinking. I was about your fear and HIS fear. Face your fear Myrta and you will be surprised how well you do.

You then asked
He will only leave if you drive him away. Don't drive him away and I am betting you could not get rid of that man with a fly swatter. I know this about him. He loves to see you smile. He loves to feel your touch. He loves it when you are happy. And he loves these things sooo much, he could forgive you and work on this marriage.

I must go now but I hope this helps you see a few things. If you have doubts about my words, ask Stanley when he gets home.

God Bless,

JL

See Myrta, AP, JL and I (and others) are all singing different verses of the same song. From the things that Stanley has said in his understated way, from what you have said, both over the years and now, we can see clearly what is within the fog of self interest for you and your husband.

Now stop a minute and read what I just said again. Take your time. It is hard to think clearly when the bullets are flying. Or, in another way of saying it, when self interest is tied up with the usual good and bad in a marriage, it is hard to get a grip on the real and I mean real, fundamentals.

Fundamentals like Stanley being in love with you because. . .

You being in love with Stanley because. . .

You are both so close to how you feel that while you can guess as to why, you probably will leave out something that is important. You love Stanley because he is your rock. Stanley loves you because you are all the things he envies. Oh, it is more than just that for both of you, but what I just said is a vital part of your caring for each other. I would bet solid money on what I just said.

I gotta go get some sleep. We are leaving for a week to 10 days and I probably won't take a look at this thread until I come back. Thank you for your compliment. You know I wish you and Stanley all the best.

Larry