"He said/she said"....and the "dance continues."

Have either of you ever thought about changing the tune or trying a different dance?

Stanley, it doesn't matter if the "world" is divided into two camps regarding "gifts." The "world" isn't important. YOUR MARRIAGE is important, so why accept any "world" position as "your position" and that you have "no choice" in the matter?

This is a "whatever will be, will be" sort of fatalism.


Myrta, you continue to want to "Feel Loved," yet you selectively choose how YOU will try to show that you love Stanley and you selectively accept and/or reject HIS attempts to show you that he loves you. Don't you think your "dance" needs to change?

Loving your spouse IS about "giving," in all it's various forms. It is NOT about "me," but you both continue to dance the "me" dance. Why?

CHANGE. Necessary and sometimes "scary" because you are used to the current "dance."

CHANGE. You are MARRIED, not single.

CHANGE. It is said that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks."
Thank God that human beings are not dogs. It is never 'too late' to learn new things or to make POSITIVE changes in the "status quo rut" you've both gotten used to.

Myrta, you are "bothered" by Stanley's revisting MB. I'm willing to bet that Stanley doesn't talk to anyone about your marriage, and in the anonymity of MB he CAN talk about what is on HIS mind and what HE is feeling, hoping that "just maybe" he might find something that can help get your marriage to where you'd both "like it to be."

Stanley, you have steadfastly refused to IMPLEMENT things that you know regarding Myrta's likes and dislikes, resting on the idea that you are "just one of the 'world' and that's the way I am." "STUCK" is the descriptive word that we hear around MB frequently and it seems to be the "ongoing problem" with the two of you.

The question is, do you both really want to get "unstuck" and move to "better place" in your marriage or do you think that the status quo is "sufficient?"

If you (both of you) do want to actually make some positive changes in how you relate to each other improves the marriage then it will start with understanding what the areas are that need to be changed and the willingness to actually WORK at make the changes that will result in what you both seem to want.

If that IS the case, then let me recommend you get a copy of the book Magnificent Marriage by Gordon MacDonald. This may actually be the "first test" of a willingness to work at making changes because the book may be out of print now and it may take a little work to find the book.

But the key thought in the book that may help you both is the issue of "Liking" your spouse and HOW love is actually shown to the one you love.

Just a thought, Stanley and Myrta, but it seems as though the current "dance" has gone on long enough and it might make some sense to try to change the music, and thereby, move on to a new "dance."

What do you think?

FH:

Thanks for your words-------I believe you are on the money.

I wish we could go back to the time before all of this developed. I remember how Myrta had matured and blossomed into a confident woman. She was not high maintenance and it was a delight to be around her. I used to thank God on a regular basis regarding the fact that we had finally arrived. Myrta came from a family where infidelity was the norm and I used to say to myself how great we were as a couple and how we were immune to such a thing.

I think the post affair state has caused a great deal of uncertainty in Myrta. Pre affair she was full of confidence and she knew I would always be her husband. Post affair Myrta finds herself looking over her shoulder to see if I am going to walk away. That is why there is so much turmoil during the special occasions.

I have stated at nauseum that I am quite happy at this time and that I have forgiven Myrta. However, even my happiness is seen as a bad thing. If I am happy it means I don’t care. If am not pressed like a high school boy it means I have no interest. Where does it end? When can we become ourselves once again?

How do you do it Mrs Wondering?

Hiya Myrta.

Glad to see you and Stanley if not for the reason(s). You two were some of my favorite sounding boards whilst I was pulling my self respect from that location where it had been placed by the choices of my wife and the OM cretin.

I am NOT gift centered. If I get something, I am happy, but if I get nothing, I am also happy. A look and a word of recognition is enough for me. My wife is also somewhat NOT gift centered. She is a bit, but not too much. She too seems to value the thought, not the actual gift.

I just have a couple of things to add to all of the posts and posters, some of whom have come out of nowhere to greet your return. Surely you recognise that those still reading this forum from long ago and far away (back to 2004) value you and Stanley. I know I do.

First of all, consider Stanley. What he does for a living requires that he be aloof from the trials and tribulations that those in a less demanding profession can expose to the world. People trust him more if he seems centered and would be suspicious if he showed too much emotion beyond caring. So he has few outlets where he can just be himself, a human being and at times a troubled human being and this forum is one of those places. Most of us here could care less what he does for a living. Keep in mind that trust from those he treats is a very real part of the treatment.

In turn, Stanley probably has the feeling that he can trust those here to be honest with him. We don't see Stanley for what he does for a living, we see Stanley as another guy who sometimes has problems he needs to work out. An anonymous forum is the perfect place, or can be.

On the other hand, except for that time when you really needed the outlet, you don't normally want to discuss your issues with strangers. You have moved past the need here to a more private place as dictated by your cultural background. What I am saying is that two people joined at the hip very seldom have the same cultural brain washing and thus often disagree on things. If I understand real love, it is when someone really knows someone else down to their toes and loves them anyway. Anyone who loves someone because they agree about everything is living in a fool's paradise because that is NEVER reality.

So it is ok for you two to disagree. But I am not at all sure it is ok for you to make an issue out of it. That Stanley's needs have found a place for resolution should be ok with you, or so it seems to me.

For a fact, I have seen this same discussion happen between the two of you. This is at least the third or fourth time over the years it has erupted. So, er, how is that working for you? In other words, nothing has changed. Stanley still hasn't figured out how to make you happy in this arena and you haven't figured out a)Why you are so unhappy or b) Maybe just haven't figured out how to articulate why you are not happy. Please keep in mind that just because you have explained it doesn't mean someone else understands. For example, I have read just about everything you have said on the subject and I don't get it either. Call me a dunderhead if you will. From my view, you have been all over the map trying to explain. And I just don't understand. I have tried, especially a few years ago.

Since I don't get it, I will now shut up.

Larry

He said/she said"....and the "dance continues.""

Well, at least we are still dancing.

Have either of you ever thought about changing the tune or trying a different dance?")

I have changed quiet a lot since DD.

CHANGE. You are MARRIED, not single.")
I know I am married. I am not a person that thinks the world revolves around me.

I will look into your book suggestion. Thank you !!

Larry

From my view, you have been all over the map trying to explain. And I just don't understand. I have tried, especially a few years ago."

What I am saying is not so hard to understand. I just want to feel special on "those special occassions". I would like to see some effort from his part.

I get rather embarrass myself when I get gifts, from anyone!! I feel undeserving of them. That is why I would rather see something small but significant and that means something given to me. I have never,ever thought that I should get lavish gifts from my husband.



On the other hand, except for that time when you really needed the outlet, you don't normally want to discuss your issues with strangers. You have moved past the need here to a more private place as dictated by your cultural background. What I am saying is that two people joined at the hip very seldom have the same cultural brain washing and thus often disagree on things. If I understand real love, it is when someone really knows someone else down to their toes and loves them anyway. Anyone who loves someone because they agree about everything is living in a fool's paradise because that is NEVER reality."




Coming back to MB to talk about my "bad ways" because I don't like his gifts , I don't think was right. Our marriage is a normal one,most of the time. I am so completely sure couples with no affair between them, have these kinds of problems. But they don't go to strangers to complain and talk about them.

I don't like how I am portray in this forum. +Like I am this callous, cold ungrateful woman, that does not value what my husband does for me.

I value my husband very much and show him EVERYDAY in my actions, especially the last four years.

I would like my efforts to be recognize once in a while with something really special.

Well, let's see...

I live with the KING of OPTIMISM, Mr. W...He calls himself "fortified with optimism" even! His favorite sayings are "Now is How" and "Act, Don't React"...He seems to get things that others take years to get...He will write things like, "I am happy today. You see the period at the end of that sentence?" He lives all of these things and it's contagious...Or I darn sure try for it to be...I try and emulate him in MANY ways...We play on the same team...We talk often now about how different our marriage is...How much we value it now...How much we've learned about it and how different that it is than it used to be...We aren't adversarial we each other...It is OUR marriage...WE love it...WE protect it...WE know that NO MATTER WHAT we are in this together til death...Lots of security in that...Secure people are happy people I've found...Our marriage today is God-centered...

And here's a BIG one...He has forgiven me, of that I'm sure...He doesn't spend loads of time trying to figure out "why people cheat" or what top ENs do cheaters have in common...I read a lot of that in your posts Stanley...I always have...I still think that you believe that you are immune...Mr. W sees adultery as a human condition...If he thought that it was something only "bad Mrs. W" did it would be VERY HARD for me to believe that he had indeed forgiven me...I would be hard pressed not to think he thought himself better than me...That attitude would bleed into me...Security would be nearly impossible...Am I right? Do you still feel that way Stanley? That only "certain types" of people commit adultery? If so, I see that a BIG root issue for you guys...

Mrs. W

Mrs. Wondering


"And here's a BIG one...He has forgiven me, of that I'm sure...He doesn't spend loads of time trying to figure out "why people cheat" or what top ENs do cheaters have in common...I read a lot of that in your posts Stanley...I always have...I still think that you believe that you are immune...Mr. W sees adultery as a human condition...If he thought that it was something only "bad Mrs. W" did it would be VERY HARD for me to believe that he had indeed forgiven me...I would be hard pressed not to think he thought himself better than me...That attitude would bleed into me...Security would be nearly impossible...Am I right? Do you still feel that way Stanley? That only "certain types" of people commit adultery? If so, I see that a BIG root issue for you guys..." quote

Yup, my husband is always figuring why people cheat and he looks for common denominators for cheaters. Example, is his way, of not doing "special things" for me, because only OMs know how to be that way with women. They ALWAYS know what to say, what to give,etc,etc.

Btw Stanley...I don't want to lead you to believe that we don't still have arguments...We do! Our last big one was at Valentine's Day...An occasion that Mr. W thought it'd be okay to skip! ::thud:: So the gift issue has come up around here too! I had a meltdown about it right here on MB!

Mrs. W

I had a feeling that was at the core MarEle...I'm not completely sure how to change that either-there are a lot of folks that don't see adultery as a human condition...

What I find interesting is that GOD does see it that way...If He didn't, there wouldn't be the 10 Commandments...Adultery wouldn't be mentioned in all four Gospels...God knows us more intimately than any other...He is our creator and is very aware of what humans are capable of, even if we aren't...

Mrs. W

If my husband acted like your wife does, his next gift would be a donation made in his name to a children's burn camp or the homeless veterans shelter.

I tend to agree with you, human condition and all. OTOH, it would be useful for you to understand there are “certain types” who will never commit adultery. No matter what.

It’s the human condition thing too.


Being incurably curious, under what conditions would Mr. W commit adultery now? Not then, now.

with prayers,

Aren't YOU the clever one Aph !


I'm gonna answer that one for myself:

Under our current marriage conditions, I cannot see any way that Mr Pep might commit adultery. If he "fell off the wagon" and dropped out via the bottle - I would predict adultery within 6 months.

A VERY provocative question, indeed !

Pep

I remember a post a long time ago in which you wrote this was in fact true of your OM. (I am cursed with a photographic memory.)

It is the definition of OM, Myrta. It is true of OMs in general and of your OM in particular.

Why isn't Stanly allowed to believe it? Maybe he shouldn’t act on it per some sense of enlightened self interest but he sure gets to believe it is true, because it is. It is true for every WW's OM that ever lived and ever will live. Otherwise they would not have been a WW with that OM in the first place.

Yeah, alcohol + alcoholic = 0.99999(adultery). I have to agree.

Same with recidivist spouse abusers.

with prayers,

Well NOW Aph, things are quite different...We meet needs, we are connected, we better understand boundaries and most importantly, we have PLANS...We know more now than we did then...HOWEVER, we are smart enough to realize that believing that we are completely immune now would be foolish...So, we have even more safeguards in place...We consult each other on seemingly tiny decisions...

A recent example from our lives...A staffer of ours who happens to be a close friend of mine didn't have enough gas/money to get to our newest location that we are beginning build out on...She asked if she could catch a ride with Mr. W...Mr. W came to me and asked how I would feel about that-(that wouldn't have happened pre-affair)...Long ago I would have seen that as harmless anyway...Not anymore...I gave a resounding "NO WAY"...I see that "harmless ride" as the tip top of a very slippery slope...After saying "yes" that one time, the second, third and fourth etc. times would have been "no big deal"...The conversations would have gotten more and more relaxed and familiar and on and on...The devil is in the smallest of details...Boundaries must be ironclad...(Btw, the staffer was given an advance on her paycheck and was able to put gas in her car)

I think with a MB education under your belt you are better armed, but that doesn't make you immune...Knowledge is power only when you apply that knowledge...

Mrs. W

Mrs W

Did you answer the question? I can't tell.

OBTW - did you subscribe to my YT channel? If you did, I sent you a message.

Pep

That's interesting...I didn't get squat from OM...I paid for EVERYTHING...Embarassing, but TRUE...

Mrs. W

OK, but under what conditions might he?

If you started doing something? If you stopped doing something? If he lost a family member? If he lost his job? If lightening struck him during a terrible storm?

IMO, there are people so well grounded lighting will never strike them. Maybe Mr. W is one.

(Err, that’s a mighty poor metaphor, but I hope you get what I mean.)

with prayers,

LOL...Sorry Pep, I went around my elbow to get to my heiney as usual...

I don't think Mr. W (or myself) is immune "just because"...I think we are because our marriage is what MB would call "affair proof" now...How's that? We are committed to not putting ourselves in temptation's way...

And YES, I did subscribe...I LOVED them too...I cried watching the one featuring your dad...beautiful...I'll have to check my messages!

Mrs. W

Well Aph, I wouldn't say that Mr. W was immune before...Prior to my affair he propositioned one of our staff who thankfully said, "NO"...I came darn near close to being the BS...(I didn't find that out til after my affair)

When we dated, he cheated multiple times...Anyone, including him, would have bet BIG MONEY on me being betrayed by him, not the other way around...

One of the things he said to me on dday was, "Mrs. W, I always looked to you for moral guidance."

I was one of the ones that SWORE that *I* was immune Aph...And we all know what happened from there...

Mrs. W