This is true of human behavior - not just you.
You are having a normal response to aversion training within your marriage.

Aversion therapy - according to Wikipedia -

Aversion therapy is a form of psychiatric, mental health or psychological treatment in which the patient is exposed to a stimulus while simultaneously being subjected to some form of discomfort. This conditioning is intended to cause the patient to associate the stimulus with unpleasant sensations in order to stop the specific behaviour.



I do not think this is intentional, but is a function of a dual feedback mechanism that is conditioning both of you to behave in ways that displease each other.

You probably need a third party to help you negotiate a "win win" outcome. You don't want either of you feeling like they "won" this problem when they get their way.

When I want my dear H to do things that please me - I praise him when he does the smallest thing correctly - it increases his efforts and makes both of us happy.

But - my opinion is just that - my opinion

best to both of you

Pep

I like that Pep - it goes with the territory - we teach people how to treat us. But if we start out with the shock therapy instead of the "catch them doing something right, we tend to have someone who lacks the desire or motivation to please the shocker. After all, if they make the attempt and get shocked for it, and then shocked again on the next attempt, it's not long until we've turned a perfectly good and trainable husband into one that doesn't give a rip. It's kind of like the puppy who gets bought by someone who's always saying "Bad Dog" and takes a gregarious personality and turns them into a cowering shell of their former selves! I've seen it done - I'm a very bad dog trainer!

Stan-ley - Myrta's not going to get this - she's going to claim that we just hate her and see her as selfish and bad. When really, she's just a bad husband trainer.

So it's up to you to train yourself. Are you a reader? I have a couple of really good books to recommend if you are. And your first assignment, if you care to take it on is to stop taking Myrta's dissatisfaction personally. If you are correct in your assessment that Myrta's problems lie in her poor self-esteem (her posts don't lend themselves to that fundamental problem though), then you know her dissatisfaction has nothing to do with you.

But that leaves you free to do some things - like use a day planner and mark out all the special occasion days. And then, out of expression of your love for her, prepare for each day - in advance. That is specifically what she has asked you to do. If, after doing that, and you get the "shock" of negative feedback, remind yourself that your actions are YOUR expression of love for her and that is what you take personally - but her complaints or lack of appreciation or even mocking (the mink coat) are about HER. And when she is ready, she can work on that discontented spirit of hers.

In the mean time, you teach YOURSELF how to love her and grow your own confidence. If you don't take her personally, she can't cut you down. And you will feel your love grow for her because you have become a more loving person.

If you like to read, I have a great book to recommend that teaches HOW to not take something personally.

I don't know about Stan, Kayla, but I AM a reader and this sounds like a great book I COULD use.....so what is the name please????

not2fun

"The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz. Excellent book!

Stan-

Repectfully, all I see here is a laundry list of issues. Both you and Myrta appear great at pointing out each other's faults.

Now that you've identified the "issues"...

What are you going to do about them???

Simply pointing them out over and over won't fix the problems.

One of the reasons I still suggest that you INSIST (stop asking about it...set it up and schedule it yourself if you need to) on marriage counseling is to get a gameplan to RESOLVE the issues that are mentioned here. She sees things in you that she feels need to change...you see things in her as well. So either you both need to change behaviors, or you both need to change your expectations of each other...or (most likely) you both need to do a combination of these.

But the first step after identifying a problem is working out a way to fix it.

That still seems to be lacking as ya'll 's next step.

This is a problem that develops once a year when we have three celebrations in a row (Mother's Day, Anniversary, and my wife's birthday).

However, there is always an underlying suspicion that I am not meeting my wife’s emotional needs 100%.

I actually love MC, but I don’t think Myrta is that crazy about it.

Otherwise, Myrta is quite well and we seem to have quite a bit of harmony at this time. However, making out after a fight is not always useful. It can become a routine.

I suspect that we are going through fall out from the affair four years ago and this can cause tension.

So, you are planning to go through THIS again next year?

You know how to set Myrta free of her adultery once and for all! The two of you tell her parents what really happened, and who OM really is.

They you get a marriage coach trained in MB methods.

with prayers,

I cannot do that-------I will never tell anyone.

The revelation will destroy my wife. My children will suffer and I will probably get pressured to end the marriage by everybody I know.

I really don't see anything useful out of that. We were able to overcome this in total privacy (the only exception the anonymity of MB and our MC).

As Myrta said, the OM has been quiet for the last year and I suspect he finally gave up. He became a good friend of Myrta’s mother, but has not been around to visit her for a while.

So what I'm hearing is that you're aware of the issue(s)...but have no intent to do anything to solve them?

Do you want to have a better marriage, or do you want to leave things the way that they are now? If the latter...then why are you upset about how she reacts?

Again, this looks like passive aggressive behavior to me. You get angry/hurt about her actions...she does the same with you...but neither of you take the next step to SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

Bottom line...what are you hoping to get out of all of this if you have no desire to change anything?

I can certainly see why Myrta does not want anyone to discover what she did. Adulterer’s never do.

Opening the drapes and lifting the sash will help, you know.

Why do you care if other people will pressure you to end your M? Who are these people and why do you care what they want? This sounds odd to me.

They won’t really care anyway. If they truly care about either of you they will want to know what you want.

And how will these super people find out in the first place? You would be telling her parents in confidence, not taking out an ad in the local paper.

Myrta’s mother deserves to know the truth about her special friend, in any case. And her mother's H, for that matter! He will be back. I will bet on it. Will you?

Dr H recommends children be told in an age appropriate way. It will in the long run help protect their marriages.

With prayers,

How's it working for you Myrta? Every year it is the same routine. No matter what Stanley comes up with, it isn't good enough. Even the year that daughter helped, you found something to dislike; took you a while though, had to dig for it. Stanley bounces from never mind to asking what to do. It is a roller coaster for both of you. And there is no reason to suggest that it will end some day, unless one or both of you makes some changes.

It's real simple;

After a couple of days ruminating on the subject, which is kinda like a raccoon chomping on a bag of potato chips, I have come up with a theory. I believe that Myrta is unconsciously using this whole gift thing to place herself firmly back on the moral high ground, her pedestal. When you look at Stanley's success in life and Myrta's infidelity, this is an easy call, and a tough one to fix. Perception is reality for the one perceiving even in the face of objective differences on that reality from unbiased observers

Now it is that Stanley can figure out how to make Myrta happy or Myrta can change her perception. Yea, well maybe both can happen, and maybe elephants can be learn to tango.

Myrta, in easy terms, Stanley had you on an undeserved pedestal. I would bet good money on that. Guess what dear, both of you would probably like it if you were back on that high ground, but it won't ever happen; no reset button in life. So instead of you holding an unequal and superior power in the relationship, you are both on fairly even ground as it stands today. Get used to it, it is the right place to be for both of you.

Myrta, your husband took the biggest blow to his ego that any man can endure. In my opinion, your task is to build him back up. How do you accomplish that by finding fault with his gift giving?

And Stanley, give it one more shot. Next time a gift is needed, take two hours and go hunt one up yourself. Go through all sorts of contortions and either experience or make up a story of your gift buying adventure. Share the story with Myrta BEFORE she gets the gift either in writing or verbally.

I finally figured out that the dynamics of your relationship are very similar to what goes on between me and my wife from time to time. When I challenged her with my observations, it was like throwing cold water on a hot stove. Lots of sizzle, smoke and yelling, but the stove cooled down.

Larry

Helllllloooooooooo Myrta.....

You still mad?

Forget the last post I did and just focus on this question.


I think that is a more than fair question. You have no obligation to answer any question I pose. But maybe you can think about the question and answer it inside yourself.

Well, if you haven't decided to ignore MB and me.

Larry

Larry:

Sometimes Myrta goes in defensive mode.

I can also tell you that for a truly repentant WW life is no bed of roses. All my five kids are righteous and anti-infidelity to the core. They profess this philosophy quite often at the dining table and sometimes say very negative things about those that are unfaithful. I know these statements are very hurtful to my wife.

I don’t recriminate about infidelity anymore and have not done so for a very long time. However, it seems that others do this all the time and I know Myrta hurts inside. I know for a fact she would love to go back to a time when there was true pure innocence in our relationship; she has said this to me more than once. In the end a FBS suffers less than a repentant FWS.

Someone who cheats out of insecurity and the need to be validated by others can have a very tough time functioning as a repentant FWW. To be accepted back may seem like a magnificent act, but those insecurities that were there pre-affair will still be there.

For the record: I believe most folks cheat because they can cheat and because they want to cheat. Unmet ENs is not the main factor even though is commonly used by the WS as the main reason.

I agree. It’s a logical sounding face saving sleight-of-hand for a WS to hide behind: “ENs made me do it.”

Has its uses early in recovery. Wears mighty thin after a short while though.

With prayers,

Stanley, I like Myrta, always have. And she gave me some good advice way back some years ago, as did you. This current issue that has cropped up triggered my baloney detector, big time. It was also close to some issues between my wife and I of late, so I projected for right or wrong and gave the opinions I gave.

It seemed to me that Myrta is trying to use the gift issue as a ladder back on her pedestal. I caught my wife doing the same thing and I had a calmly spoken and specific but robust family discussion with her. Things are better now.

I certainly could be wrong. In any event, if that is Myrta's unconscious motivation, that doesn't really make her a bad person by any means any more than my wife is a bad person for wanting all the leverage she can get. After all, Myrta has to deal with you and my wife has to deal with me, both as best they can.

Larry

Larry

quote=Okay Stanley, so Myrta went off to sulk. That comes a no surprise whatsoever. She just hates to be wrong. Most women do and those who are raised to speak a Latin derived language more so than most, especially Spanish. Their temperment is one that I enjoy and life is never dull around them. Certainly they can LOVE passionately and that is a serious benefit.

Nope, I was not sulking Larry. I was in Disneyworld with my daughters and little grandaughter, having fun with them. Did not even think about MB or the "problem" at hand.



She is just gonna have to get used to walking around on level ground like the rest of us. QUOTE

I am very much used to walking "ground level" like the rest of you.

Ok Skywalker, just trying to get you to take a look.

See, I have an unspoken reason for posting way more than I should to you. It is that the personality you project in your writing very much mirrors that of my wife's. Way back in the early days of our recovery, I found you to be someone who was farther along the road to general recovery than my wife was and I could see where she might be down the road.

You helped me. But I don't think I ever said why in so many words. Now I said it. And I thank you.

And no, I don't expect you to answer my main question. No way would my wife answer the same question. But she would think about it. And that was all I really asked.

Recently, my wife got into an emotional endless loop over some issue or the other in our relationship. I posed a question for her just as I did for you that she never acknowledged, but in a few days, she did a reversal on her previous position and we found a POJA that satisfied us both.

The question I asked was really wasn't as important as the motivation it gave her to think outside of the emotional loop she was in so she could find her own reason for getting stuck going nowhere. Anyway, it worked for her, so I thought I would try it with you.

All the best.

Larry

[quote=_Larry_]Ok Skywalker, just trying to get you to take a look.

See, I have an unspoken reason for posting way more than I should to you. It is that the personality you project in your writing very much mirrors that of my wife's. Way back in the early days of our recovery, I found you to be someone who was farther along the road to general recovery than my wife was and I could see where she might be down the road.


Larry

I think all FWW have similarities , maybe thats why you can see some of your wife's traits on me.

The down the road part, I don't know about that.

The issue with the gift giving it has nothing to do with being a regular wife with no Affair history or a FWW. It has to do with how the husband gives those gifts to his wife. Of course my husband HIGHLY exagerates everything to appear my victim. But Larry, if I had being such an ungrateful woman all of our marriage, do you think he would had stay married to me? He has stayed with me because I treat him well "most" of the time.


Like I said before Stanley knows what I like, but he chooses to do the same things, that he has done before that had made me sad,angry,etc. Maybe some resentment from his part? He says no, I say yes. SO, it is really "He says, She says". Obviously here, the BS is always always right, never does anything wrong. So he will always have more fans here. LOL

I like you a lot too. You have always appear to be a very nice, considerate man to your wife. From the beginning you appear to be moving very fast in your recovery. Not feeling sorry for yourself. I am sure your wife's recovery was speedier because of your attitude.

How is your everyday life as a couple with your children,etc?

Oh good, you remember me.

Hokay, I buy that a BS can wave the flag of infidelity over something in a "poor me" context and of course they shouldn't do it. That does NOT have anything to do with long term recovery which should be based on avoiding love busters, something that SHOULD be a part of EVERY marriage with or without the long term effects of an affair. In THAT context, you can't wave the flag either.

Got it?

In other words, how are things working for you as things stand right now? Any progress? Has Stanley changed? I asked him to consider changing. What I see is that the two of you are in an emotional negative loop. Nothing he does is gonna be good enough, and he hasn't a prayer of being seen in a better light, so he keeps on doing the same thing, which is guaranteed to defeat him yet again. Both of you are beating your head on brick walls. How does it feel?

At the same time I agree with you, I also disagree with you if what I see is accurate. Is it true that you loved the gifts that you received from the OM? Is it true that you had a hard time giving them up? If that is so, you have a trigger issue. While it would be nice to put it all behind you forever, you and I know that isn't possible. An affair is truly the gift that keeps on giving. And even divorce doesn't change that fact. It is what it is. Not that you and Stanley are gonna divorce.

So yes, Stanley needs to alter his gift giving. And YOU need to praise his efforts and get a grip, controlling any negative thought at all in an effort to build him up should he give it a try. That sound good?

How are things here?

Oh my. Well, things are really great. The family is whole and only consumed with the usual conflicts that are a part of every healthy family with all of the usual chaos of kids and their agendas and a husband and a wife with the usual different approaches to living and loving and dealing with the kids and the challenges we face. We do better than most and not as good as some. There are ALWAYS conflicts. It is how you deal with those conflicts that determine how healthy a relationship is, in my opinion.

My wife fights dirty. She will use anything and everything to get her way. I can react in one of two ways, getting down at that level and going male on her or trying to keep the peace as best I can. So I do it both ways just to confuse her. We usually end up compromising and that is a good thing.

We have one lingering issue I have been trying to work up posting. It is pretty serious. It has nothing to do with recovery as such, my wife and I have a very, very strong relationship. It concerns the long lost relative, the only relative I have in this world and what to do about him. You may or may not remember that part. You have something sorta similar in that your OM was sucking up to your mother for a long time. The whole relative thing is so personally embarassing to me and to my wife to the point where I havn't found the courage to post as yet, and may never. I just don't know.

Here is one success. I finally was able to convince my wife that fathers and mothers love in different ways. This was over the male conflicts that oldest son and I have. She saw it as me not loving him. The resolution of that error in her thinking was actually from son, who simply told her to butt out of his relationship with me, that she didn't understand it and that she was his mother and I was his dad and of course we have different approaches.

I put him up to it. He was all for playing both ends against the middle and I explained how that was not to his real advantage. He is very smart and he got it. So the next time he and I got into a heated discussion and mom jumped in trying to "protect" him; we both turned on her. It was extremely funny. She got so mad she started throwing books at both of us. We both were laughing so hard, we got hit. She finally stomped off and sulked in the bathroom for 10 or 15 minutes while we high fived each other then returned to the disagreement.

My daughter calls me DAD. Manipulative little twerp

My youngest son is ADHD. So is the oldest. Youngest is now on adderol - low dosage, 5Mg a day. He is doing better. Wife is working her job, she graduated a year and a half ago as RN, BSN and she works Mother/Baby in a fairly large hospital. She also is cross trained in NeoNatal ICU, where she has the really sick babies. She loves her job if not all the politics of a hospital.

You think I was positive? Go take a look at Runnerboy65's thread. That guy is a real hero.

Larry

Oh good, you remember me. \:\)

==============================================================

Of course I remember you. You were the perfect BS any WW or FWW would want to encounter to recover from an Affair.






Hokay, I buy that a BS can wave the flag of infidelity over something in a "poor me" context and of course they shouldn't do it. That does NOT have anything to do with long term recovery which should be based on avoiding love busters, something that SHOULD be a part of EVERY marriage with or without the long term effects of an affair. In THAT context, you can't wave the flag either.=========================================================

Waving of flags? Well, I think either the WW or BS would wave flags once in a while. Is a human condition to do it, I think.




Has Stanley changed?

Well, he has done a couple of very cute gestures towards me. I liked them a lot. For instance, I went to Disney in Florida, and while I was going thru my suitcase I came upon a very pretty card e had put in there. With very pretty message and all.

Larry, while I was over there having fun with my daughters, I was studying myself and looking at my life , what God has given me. I am pretty lucky indeed, I came with a different outlook towards my husband, my life. I hope Stanley has seen my change.





At the same time I agree with you, I also disagree with you if what I see is accurate. Is it true that you loved the gifts that you received from the OM? Is it true that you had a hard time giving them up? If that is so, you have a trigger issue. While it would be nice to put it all behind you forever, you and I know that isn't possible. An affair is truly the gift that keeps on giving. And even divorce doesn't change that fact. It is what it is. Not that you and Stanley are gonna divorce.
================================================================

No, I did not loved the gifts OM gave me . I was in the fog when I did not want to get rid of them. Not because I loved the gifts, but because I was into OM still. His gifts were meaninless to me after I woke up from the fog, believe that!!



Truly, I think the problems we have, are just normal problems that are blown out of proportion here. People exagerate a lot for the effect of what they are saying. Couples dissagree, fight every day, not because of any agenda between them. Even you, had said here, that you had fights about gifts , women in general (generalizing here) like to complain once in a while. I am not an ungrateful woman.




Anyways, please elaborate about your problem about your only relative. I don't understand the problem at hand with you and your wife.

Like people say here. We are all faceless people here trying to help one another.


Myrta