So, squatting was your thing. He seemed to know what to give you standing up.

ed: Ok, now I see this in print it doesn’t read so nice. Sorry. My point being, your OM may not have given you much in the way of material things, but he knew, as Mryta writes, just what to say to you and just what to do for you, right? He was OMish as the best of them.

Ok Myrta and Stanley,

Let me take another cut at this given what has been said. what I think is that the two of you are indeed doing a dance as I beleive FH called it. I don't think either of you recognize it though.

Myrta, if it is true, as Stanley said, that your whole family except father was "seduced" by OM and his generousity, his attention, his help, then you might guess that you were as well, right? So one could conjecture that you are a product of your family and you feel that the type of attention OM gave you is indeed what any man that wanted you might give you.

How am I doing?

Now let's assume that Stanley sees the same thing. Further being in the profession he is in, it is his nature to look at things, be puzzled, fascinated, and focus on things he does not understand. But, let's assume that he is also a man of pride.

If this is true, his response is very likely to be "I'll be d****d if I will act like OM." A bit of stubbornness perhaps, a bit of rebellion. And the fact that he does NOT respect a man that uses a woman's weakness to buy her affection.

I does not want to "buy" your affection Myrta (assuming I am right), so you are seeing a bit of passive agressiveness here.

HOw am I doing Stanley?

Further, he may be saying to himself: "I stayed in this marriage, I forgave her, I love and support her and all she wants is gifts like OM gave her." If this is true, his reactions make sense don't they.

Further, he is successful, and really anything he wants he can buy, but he is like me. He has a passion for his work as I do, and I really only have time/space for a couple of passions in my life: my work and my family, things finish down the list.
So I also have a hard time seeing your need as being important to you as it really is.

Let's get to anniversaries. I don't know if Stanley was ever heavily into anniversaries, but I would guess he is not so sure he should be wildly celebrating the anniverasries now. Why? Again a guess: you didn't think the marriage was very important at one time in your life and he is not sure now.

So let's say I am even close to the mark here.

What does it mean for you two. ONe it means Stanley has some resentment left to deal with. Two, it means his pride is making it very difficult for him to be like OM. But, it also means Myrta that you need to recognize that this need for gifts must change. I don't mean no gifts. I mean there are many ways to give gifts: the gift of time, the gift of attention (a good resturaunt, dancing, just affection), the gift of respect (accepting each other: good and bad), and the gift of history/family. The two of you have been married 35 years, lots of history, lots of good times, good children, grandchildren, isn't time you two realize that you have given each other a magnificent gift of history here???

Myrta, I sense you are a woman of pride as well. Pride in yourself, pride in who you are. You don't want to change either because that would mean you had let this affair define you. Well, it hasn't defined you, but it should have changed you. You like Stanley need to let go of your pride abit, and be willing to change HOW your needs are met, NOT your needs. YOu need him to show you his love, you need him to show you respect and kindness, but perhaps you need to redefine who he does these things taking into account his issues with what has happened.

When I said talk to one another, I did not mean "how's the weather?" I meant be honest: what still bugs each of you, what do you really deep down want to see from each other, what are you having a hard time recognizing in one another?

This to me is not about "gifts", it is about giving and taking on an emotional level, one a personal level, taking into account each of your own preference, what you have learned, and the reality of your life experiences with each other.

Please think about this. I'll give off of my "soapbox" now, and quite being an armchair Psych. guy.

I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

Last threadjack, as this thread isn't about ME...

OM was my ex high school/college boyfriend Aph...Pretty much cements for me what Dr. Harley says about NC being so important...That a low burning flame remains for an OP and it can be reignited at any time...My affair proved that...Dr. Harley is a very smart man...

Mrs. W

P.S. You were right, that wasn't very nice...I appreciate your apology.

Mryta,

If there are such things as ENs it may be useful to postulate the existence of aversions we could call anti-ENs.

Stanley may now have a visceral aversion to even remotely appearing like OM. In deed, in word, in thought. To him, to you, to the universe at large.

He now has an anti-EN.

Plenty of us BH do.

This anti-EN is not going to go away any more than ENs do. This anti-EN may now be as basic as his actual ENs.

You may need to change to meet his anti-EN. A plan A, in fact. All things being equal, you owe it to your marriage. You always did owe it to your marriage.

I type way fast, and I usually don't read what I type until it shows up on the thread. Sometimes things look so different in print compared to what they look like in my head. I should preview first, huh. But that is so like climbing stairs, a waste of time. I always run stairs – both ways.

With prayers,

I know, I know, I am awful.

I think that happens more often than you think. The sign of a really good "player", IMO. My FWW didn't get anything from the OM either.

Cut that out MarEle...If you keep saying that, I'm gonna start to believe you!

I like what BobPure says often around here..."Opinions Vary"...Use that one next time!

Mrs. W

Actually, I don't think I am awful. I think I have been a pretty good wife to my husband(not counting the awful time of the A).

But some people here think that I am.

And as MelodyLane drilled into me, the only person's opinion of you that MATTERS is that of "the lady in the mirror"...(and Stanley's too! )

I'm glad to hear that you don't think that you're awful!

Mrs. W

Myrta:

Please stop a minute. The problem is a lack of communication.

I said I didn't understand your point. Then you came right back and said:



Okay, how does what you said make me understand? What you have said is vague. First you say it is not so hard to understand. Does that make me a complete idiot because I don't?

Then you say you just want to feel special. Okay, what makes you feel special? I cannot read your mind. I cannot read your emotional responses.

Let me say this again. I cannot read your mind. I cannot read your emotional responses. Nobody can unless you open yourself to be understood. See Myrta, there are two sides to the coin; on one side is your need and on the other side is Stanley trying to meet that need. His lack of comprehension is a product of a failure to communicate, your failure.

Do you see that Myrta?

The last time we went around and around on this subject, I suggested that what you really wanted was Stanley's time. I don't remember the outcome from that suggestion.

Okay, next:


Two things:

Number one. Did you read why I said Stanley came here? I said, a) because he felt safe, and b) because he had no other place to vent his frustrations. I explained why. Again, did you read what I said. He isn't talking about your "bad" ways, he is talking about the simple fact he doesn't understand how to please you. And he wants help. He found help here before, so it is natural that he would seek help here again.

You probably didn't understand what I said or something. See how easy it is to not understand? You didn't understand me, but I thought what I said was easy to understand. Since what I said went against what you wanted to think, voila. And you are flat wrong about something: People go to strangers to complain all the time because it is safe, no affair involved.

Number two. I do not think you are a callous, cold ungrateful woman. For one thing, I don't waste my time on people who I feel is in that category. And I certainly will talk to you anytime and I have talked to you for years. My overall impression of you is very positive and that will likely never change.

But that doesn't mean we have to agree about everything, does it?

Let me try another way of explaining.

Without question, women want their men to more or less understand them. No, not completely because then the mystery cannot be called upon at a woman's convenience. Women want their men to understand because they KNOW how hard it is to explain something to a male. But the reality is that men don't really understand women except during a certain stage of infatuation and then the understanding is NOT real, the woman just thinks the male understands because she wants to believe he does even when he doesn't.

Oh, men can understand some things after a long struggle and much patience on his woman's part.

Let me take another try to see if I can get this right. I am really struggling with a way to explain what I think so YOU (female) will understand ME (male).

You want Stanley to give you something to make you feel good about yourself. Uh, how does he do that? Only YOU can make yourself feel good about YOU. Perhaps what you really mean is that you want Stanley to give you something so you know Stanley feels good about YOU. If that is true, then the light might dawn and I will say something that can help you and Stanley.

So tell me again. And before you say something, think about it. Do you want to feel good about you or do you want to feel that Stanley feels good about you? Which one is it or is it something else?

Larry

Having spent all thread identifying with Stanley, I think I can also identify a little with Myrta.

as some may know my dear Squid has not been great at spontaneously giving up some IB that triggers and hurts me. Its dropped but not STOPPED.

MANY exasperated friends have asked me " WHY don't you just tell her to stop those independent behaviours for goodness sakes ???? JUST TELL HER ! Its BEYOND POJA just tell her ! Protect yourself ! "


Trouble is....I don't want a resentful robot doing what I say as a "punishment" or an unavoidable consequence of her affair. I want a women who CARES ENOUGH to want to protect me from hurt to make decisions that place my heart above her fun.

It is the heart of care that I want, not the "actions" done resentfully.

Perhaps Myrta, you would rather have the WRONG gift chosen and wrapped with care and delivered with a lovely hand written bible quote on the tag than a new Porsche boxter bought over the internet by his secretary ?

Its the HEART for pleasing me I want, not the actions. Is that like you at all Myrta ?

(quote)-Okay, how does what you said make me understand? What you have said is vague. First you say it is not so hard to understand. Does that make me a complete idiot because I don't?

-

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Larry, again, I) don't think is so hard what I am trying to say. I would like my husband to "pay attention" to a little detail, instead, of thinking that going to Tiffany's and buying me a piece of jewerly over and over again is going to hit the jackpot with me!
He talks about me giving him "golf shirts" and he has tons of them, but that is just one of the many gifts that I know he would like. But when I give him the gifts I wrapped them, I choose carefully his card, put it in a gift bag,etc.etc.

My husband on the other hand, gives me a gift that I had chosen online the day before. He gave me ONE thing of the 3 or 4 things that I told him I would like. No card, not wrapped.

What hurt me was his lack of detail, the "no card", the "no romance".

I would had rather receive a box of chiclets with a pretty card with a nice message written by HIM!



QUOTE-Let me say this again. I cannot read your mind. I cannot read your emotional responses. Nobody can unless you open yourself to be understood. See Myrta, there are two sides to the coin; on one side is your need and on the other side is Stanley trying to meet that need. His lack of comprehension is a product of a failure to communicate, your failure.
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I have opened myself to him many times, about what I like and I don't. No, he cannot read my mind, but he can listen to what I tell him. He hears me, but he does not listen. I don't think I have failed, communicating, he just does not care to listen.


I should kiss the path he walks, and thank my lucky stars because he is my husband.(his words) Any woman, would love having him as a husband, because he is so good (his words)






QUOTE-You want Stanley to give you something to make you feel good about yourself. Uh, how does he do that? Only YOU can make yourself feel good about YOU. Perhaps what you really mean is that you want Stanley to give you something so you know Stanley feels good about YOU. If that is true, then the light might dawn and I will say something that can help you and Stanley.)
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Maybe you are right, maybe I want Stanley to give me something that shows me that he feels "good" about me. I want Stanley to like me, for what I had become. I want him to see that I have changed since DD.

QUOTE-Perhaps Myrta, you would rather have the WRONG gift chosen and wrapped with care and delivered with a lovely hand written bible quote on the tag than a new Porsche boxter bought over the internet by his secretary ?
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EXACTLY!! I would rather he gave me something that I know he chose with love and care, wrapped beautifully with an enclosed card.

Many years ago, he gave me a mink coat, lavish so expensive. Really, too much!! I get embarrass to wear those kinds of coats. He took his secretary with him, so she could model the coat, and they chose it together. That was one of my "least" favorite gifts from him. I am not a pretentious woman and he knows it. But yet he buys me a 5k floor lenght mink.


It is not the $$$$$$, but the quality of the detail involved that counts, with me.

Perhaps, the coat could have been used for a more private wearing? Rather than run down the gift because of the cost and so-called pretentiousness, you could exert a little more creativity in your receiving of gifts?

Myrta - I used the Scarlett O Hara example because she was never happy with what she had, what was given freely. She never saw the heart of the man because it wasn't what SHE wanted. Your example of rejecting the mink coat is just another example. What if it wasn't pretentious to Stan-ley? What if your attitude toward that gift is just another way of telling him he's not enough; that he doesn't measure up in this very important emotional need like the OM did?

You are running the risk of pushing this "mystical mind-reading" expectations to the destruction of your marriage.

I can understand why Stan-ley doesn't want to do ANYTHING remotely like the OM did to win your love and affection. It's a huge thing you are asking of him. Impossible really.

I would NEVER do something for my husband that was remotely like the OW did. I would be myself. The best myself I could be and do what I could to meet his emotional need. But my husband grew up and stopped expecting me to "mother him" the way OW did. If he had remained in that stuck place he was in when he accepted the OW's violation of our boundaries, we would not be married right now.

Oh - and btw, manipulating people with pretended self-loathing is not nice. It's not endearing. Please consider this a potential lovebuster to Stan-ley. And eliminate it from your posts and behavior. Saying negative things about yourself like I know I know - I'm awful lacks sincerity. Especially when coupled with your posts about what a wonderful wife you are and how grateful you are.

Yes - you are insecure about where you stand with Stan-ley - but that's different from the sentiments of pretended loathing on a foundation of anger - which is what I see in your posts.

Stanley:

Okay, from the following. . .



If what she is saying in response to me needling her, then the light should be dawning, especially in light of her response to what BOB PURE had to say and her response to him. In other words, based on those two items, I GET IT.

Stanley, do you? Er, do you get it?

Of course getting it and reaching inside yourself to figure out how to implement that knowledge are two different things. Need some help with that?

We could get into psychobabble about how Docs give so much of themselves, a little bit at a time, all day, to the point where they don't have much left, but that is a crock if a Doc manages himself properly, so I won't go there. I could go into types of people and how hard they have to work to figure out true intimacy (for example, me) but I won't go there yet.

We could get into the simple fact that for some people, a very expensive gift is a sign of appreciation and for others, it looks like you are trying to buy them. We could get into a lot of things.

To get into the simple instead of the complex, again, I get it. Myrta has explained it so I understand if what she says is reality instead of just more smoke blowing.

You are the kinda guy who places a great deal of importance on method. That is beat into you through your education process. Thus, the familiar road is the one best traveled. Uh, when that no longer works, when the familiar no longer yields the desired result, change is obviously needed. You want to make Myrta happy? Okay, the solution becomes obvious, doesn't it?

So what are you going to do Stanley?

Larry

Kayla Andy says=I can understand why Stan-ley doesn't want to do ANYTHING remotely like the OM did to win your love and affection. It's a huge thing you are asking of him. Impossible really.
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The OM in question was not lavishing me with "perfect gifts". I don't want my husband to be like him at all. They are opposites.

If there comes a destruction of My Marriage, it will be both faults, not only mine. There is NO "mystical mind reading",.



QUOTE'-Oh - and btw, manipulating people with pretended self-loathing is not nice. It's not endearing. Please consider this a potential lovebuster to Stan-ley. And eliminate it from your posts and behavior. Saying negative things about yourself like I know I know - I'm awful lacks sincerity. Especially when coupled with your posts about what a wonderful wife you are and how grateful you are.
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I do NOT self loath myself, that was a sarcastic comment of my part You are right I was not being sincere, just merely sarcastic.

And yes, I do consider myself a good wife to my husband. If I had been the horrible ungrateful wife that is described in this thread, he would had gone out the door many years ago, way before my Affair. He stayed with me because I have been a good wife and I have given him what he needed.


QUOTE-Yes - you are insecure about where you stand with Stan-ley - but that's different from the sentiments of pretended loathing on a foundation of anger - which is what I see in your posts.

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Yes,I am angry. Angry about his lack of effort to me!

I agree with Larry. You may understand what you are saying but it really isn't clear and I'm a woman so it's not entirely a male/female thing. To me, the bolded statement above sounds like you want a specific brand or style of something. Or a specific piece to match other pieces that you have. Or a specific colour of something. I can envision Stanley anxiously browsing over similar pieces of jewelrey at Tiffany's completely stressing out that he might not be seeing the right detail you are looking for.

But later on you say you'd be happier with a pack of chicklets wrapped nicely with a sentimental card etc. If this is so, then what you want improvement on is the presentation of the gift, not the gift itself. You need to choose your words so that this is the message you convey. It may mean saying specificially, "I would like my gift nicely wrapped, with a card that has a romantic saying, presented to me under circumstances that may include a romantic atmosphere such as by coming home early and leaving a trail of rose petals leading to it's location." I understand that it can take away some of the romance of it to spell it out to him like this but after you have done it a few times, he will be able to learn what to do and will even be able to come up with his own ideas.

Right now, you have asked him to pay attention to detail. What detail?

Paying off a $5k coat requires effort - especially one received with disgust.

Stan-ley and you speak different love languages. You deride him for not learning your language (mystical mind reading) while you don't put the effort to learn his.

Be angry. It doesn't serve you or Stan-ley nor will it make him learn your language.

Be very clear about what you want - not coded in "I want him to put out a little effort" - well what does that mean in Stan-ley's language? "I can't find the d*mned hoop Myrta's wanting me to jump through - so I ask questions - she gets mad because I'm not coming up with this on my own."

That's mystical mind reading and yes you are doing it. Give it up. Stan-ley doesn't speak your language and he's not going to get it without a little patience and loving on your part. Anger isn't loving. It hurts this process.

Set it up for him to win. Teach him - don't yell at him on how to make the needed deposits.

QUOTE===ight now, you have asked him to pay attention to detail. What detail?


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Oh, so I was not clear in what details I would like? I have already said that I would RATHER get a box of wrapped gum, with a nice sentimental card.

No, I don't want any specific jewerly piece to match what I already have. He does not have to stress about it, he knows it!


I thought I was being clear of my wants.