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tigger

"First of all, he would not have been forcing me to do it. I was willing to do ANYTHING to save my M, which I screwed up all on my own."

Being you got hung up on the word "forced".

Your getting pregnant by the OM put your BH between a rock and a hard place.

You gave him a choice: to leave or stay, but ignore what he had to give up to leave or stay.

Either way your BH paid big time. Price, the cost to lose his family or the cost to swallow and the OC stays.

Some choice.

Why didn't you make the choice to give up the OC?

Why didn't you tell BH that for him to swallow an accept was to high a price for BH to pay, so you were giving up the OC?

So instead you put BH in a position to make a choice in a lose lose situation.

A choice that would tear at you for the rest of your life because you as a mom would never have the joys of raising you OC.

And would tear away at the OC if you gave up the OC, and tore away 18 years of the OC getting to know his mom.

What you of done if you had given up the OC and he came looking for you?

What if OC wanted a relationship with you and his half siblings?

Being you had the affair and got pregnant by the OM why didn't you force yourself to give up your OC? Tell BH I'm giving up the OC.

Yes your BH could of argued for you to keep the OC, even insist you keep the OC. What's the difference? Simple the BH had a true choice. He could chose whether or not to fight your decision to get rid of the OC. Instead you made him have to make a lose lose decision.

You made your BH do your dirty work.


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The Road;

You said:

Quote
You gave him a choice: to leave or stay, but ignore what he had to give up to leave or stay.


What I hadn't said was I even told him that I would walk away and not fight for the kids if that was what he wanted. And I meant it. So, in your eyes, the only thing he would have lost was the sl*t who put him in the situation. Oh, and it wasn't decided the same day we found out I was P. It took quite a while, maybe even 4 months for the final decision.

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Why didn't you make the choice to give up the OC?


The first thing, after letting BH know I was P(didn't know until 2 or 3 weeks AFTER D-day), that I did was try to find an abortion clinic. Am I proud of that fact, NO, and it's only by the grace of God that the only number I could find in my desperation was to a Crisis Pregnancy type center. The next thing that went through my mind was giving the child up for adoption. My BH WOULDN'T LET ME DO THAT. I didn't go to him and say, "If you want to save the M I will give up the baby, but YOU have to decide." AND, had he asked me at the birth of our child(I say our, cause that's what my BH considers her as) to give her up, I would have, even then.

Quote
Yes your BH could of argued for you to keep the OC, even insist you keep the OC. What's the difference? Simple the BH had a true choice. He could chose whether or not to fight your decision to get rid of the OC. Instead you made him have to make a lose lose decision.


Nope, my BH could have, just as Pops did, insisted that we file for CS against xom and do DNA and all that. He actually had thought of it, and many other scenarios like that. I did what my BH wanted to do. We POJA'd all the decisions TOGETHER.

So, it was my BH's decision to keep the baby and raise her as our child together. He knew that if things didn't work out down the road he would be responsible for CS, but he still made that choice. My part in the POJA was that I was willing to do anything necessary to save my M.

I see that RB's WW, from what he's shared with us, sees what she's done and could still loose for her foolish behavior. She is repentant. She knows she's done wrong and wants to correct her mistakes. She can't change the past, but can work to make the future better by making every day with RB better than it's ever been before. I seem to recall that she is or at least was willing to give this child up for adoption, but RB said no. They are working their best in this situation to recover their M. I can only speak from my own experience, which is so similar to their's. We've survived it, and more. Also, don't forget their history, it really does count for a lot.


Tigger
me~BS & WS~38~~h~BS & WS~37 my d-days~7/92, 1/96, 7/00, 9/07
h's d-days~7/11/00 & 2 weeks later 3 COM, 1 OC(mine)
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road you said

"Either way your BH paid big time. Price, the cost to lose his family or the cost to swallow and the OC stays."

i know it wasn't directed to me but i have to say that i don't see myself as having "paid big time" or having "swallowed".

i like to use the word accepted. but i also like to use the analogy of "people who live in glass houses".

i have sinned a plenty in my life and also in my M. no A's but in other ways. when talking with my w's uncle during the initial coming out of our situation he said to me that God doesn't distinguish between sin. sin is sin. one is not worse then the other in Gods eyes.

so i had to look deep into my self. if my w could have forgiven me for my sins then why couldn't i forgive her for hers.

do i wish my w had not had her A? you bet ya. but had she not we may have very well been D'd by now.

someone said something about an oc of mixed race. grace is exactly that. her bio is from south of the border and my w is as caucasian as one could get. does it change anything? NOPE.



me-59 ww-55
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Well, at least it appears that we've gotten to the bottom of the self-deception and taste acquisition issues. wink

At least, to my mind, it does appear quite obvious that many of us are simply cut from different cloth, and I suppose that can be said of about any group of people.

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MyRev said
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Well, at least it appears that we've gotten to the bottom of the self-deception and taste acquisition issues.

At least, to my mind, it does appear quite obvious that many of us are simply cut from different cloth, and I suppose that can be said of about any group of people.

Yup, cut from a different cloth. The most interesting thing though is that we don't know what pattern we are until we are turned over, just like life. smile

God Bless,

JL

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God doesn't distinguish between sin. sin is sin. one is not worse then the other in Gods eyes.

I am not sure what religion your uncle practices, but this is clearly not the message in the Bible.

here's a good explanation with examples.

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/01/07/are-all-sins-really-equal-in-gods-sight/

Please do not take this message as discounting your well thought out feelings regarding your marriage and child.

MEDC

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tigger

I am glad you and your husband are happy where your life has ended. I agree that your husband got to make his own decision. I disagree on the real lack of choices that your BH or any BH had. I find it sad that you can not see this.

I glad you did not have an abortion. What kind of choice would a mom really be giving herself? Kill her child or let him live. Killing is not a real good choice. So how can one count it?

Not really any choice for her. If she had decided to kill her child she would of taken away his right to live. Then there would be the damage done to her that would for having to face that decision for the rest of her life.

If she had given him up for adoption. Her child would of gotten to live, but would of lost out on being raised by his mother. Lost out on growing with his step siblings.

Even if the OC was able to locate his birth mom and able to forge adult relationships with her and his step siblings. Who is going to give the OC the 18 years he lost back? What is to be done about that? How about they photo shop the OC into all the vacation, holiday, graduation, and birthday pictures in the family photo album.

When a mom keeps her child whether OC or not it's because it's what was best for her and the OC. How can one go wrong with doing what's best.

The BH, if he refuses to recover is not acting in the best interests of his children, COM. They will no longer have access to both parents 24/7. Or live in one family home.

If a BH refuses to suck it up for team his COM suffer. That's a great choice. Recover or hurt his COM.

The other great choice accept the reminder of a WW's PA, even though the BH can grow to love the OC. Or the BH can be the one to harm the WW and OC by demanding they be separated.

The BH has really great alternative choices here. He recovers, accepts the OC, anything less he will hurt his family. All because he won't suck it up.

The only choice a BH has is to swallow his pain so he won't cause his family pain. WW's you really know how to give choices.

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Pops

"i was talking to fh the other day about where we are. she said to me something that set me aback. after 7+ years she said that "if i had listened to her complaints, she would have never had the A."

"believe me rb's w has not gotten any free tickets here. she will be paying for her mistake for the rest of her life"

"i have seen it in my w's eyes and her actions. i see it when we are in public and there are people that know our sit. i see the shame in her eyes. i see it when she says she doesn't feel like attending some events because of the way she percieves people look at her. i see it when i am swimming with grace in our blow up pool and and she is happy yet realizing how this all came to be. i see it when she gets so down when oc is off for her visitation."

Have you given it any more thought as to why FH said that?

If I remember you pushed for FH's OM to pay child support.
This has brought about continued contact with the OM for seven years and will prevent NC for the rest of FH's or the OM's life. How can you expect a WW to heal when the OM however indirectly is still involved?

The countless times that I have read here where recovery stalled because their was no NC.
Maybe by you insisting that the OM not get away free and have to pay has FH tired of having the constant reminder OM, PA, getting pregnant by OM rubbed in her face by continued contact.

FH needs to be forgiven and to forgive herself. Your decision to go after the OM and keeping him involved in your lives through the OC has made it impossible for FH to forget and forgive herself. Your going after the OM has made it impossible for FH to bury the past.



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I have no experience in this situation involving COM.

I would though like to say to those BH's who raise them as their own, that I believe you are among the noblest, loving and caring men walking this earth!

You men have walked through a testing fire and come out the other side as examples to us all.

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Quote
Recover or hurt his COM.

It hurts the COM no matter what, The Road.

I thought I should clarify that for you.

No

Matter

What.

There is NO scenario in this mess that makes certain that everyone involved doesn't get a slice of the hurt pie.

Because of the choices of two very selfish people, every person that knows and loves them gets a bit of that pie.

How large the helping is totally depends on how the situation is handled once it comes to light.

I understand your posts now.

The words are quite different from what I'd have used, but the idea behind them is clear now.

You are entirely correct. Once the adultry comes to light, it falls to the BS to choose the path of the least nuclear radiation to guide their family through.

The path itself is objective depending upon the BS.


I never had to take the Kobayashi Maru test until now. What do you think of my solution?

O'hana means family, and family means nobody gets left behind or forgotten.

My Story

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Iam

COM children of the marriage

OC other child

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Thought it was child of OM!? blush

Well, you get my point.

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pops

Another question. Your daughter is 7 years old. Does DD know in an age appropriate way why she has two dads? What have you told her? What do you think DD will do when she becomes old enough to understand that her mom cheated on you had an affair with the OM and he got her mom pregnant?

Would it of been better for you and your WW to of not gone after the OM for CS so he would be out of your and WW's life since you started recovery?

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"""""""""""Pops, could you share a bit about how you went about controlling your anger? What did you do specifically to alleviate the caustic thoughts? I'm only about two months since latest D-day. Does it just take time? What the he!! can I do to stop this?""""""""""

it took sitting down and looking at where the real hurt came from. i must admit that at the outset i literally wanted om off the face of the earth. i had several friends that offered and could have taken care of that with no problem. but i wanted to have that satisfaction if it were to be had. i actually put a plan in motion to handle it myself. it was a really dark time for me.

after sitting down and talking with some close friends i had to face the truth that the om was just in the right place at the wrong time. the person that caused me the pain was my w. so anything that was dealt to om would surely have to be dealt to my w also.

since i could not even fathom that end for the woman that i loved so deeply i had to find ways to squash my anger.

for me there were 2 big items. humor (sick) and music. 1st i started listening to only songs that would allow me to say "ha this is what you deserve, b!%#h". songs like pat banatar's - harden your heart, journey had a cople also - your as cold as ice and who's cryin now.

i had just heard a song by lone star called "amazed". beautiful love song. i bought the cd and was going to give it to my w to explain how i felt about her. we were in her car and she already had it playing. realizing that the song gave her thoughts of om i threw my cd away and still to this day change the station if it comes on the radio.

i was working out regularly and noticed other women noticing me. and realized that should my marriage end i would be able to move forward.

these started to help me regain my self esteem and then i started to realize that she was the one who would be the loser if our marriage ended.

also laughter. i had an employee that i worked very close with. he had a sick sense of humor that matched my own. so we would talk about some of the sick things we could do to variouos people involved. we would laugh our rearends off at some of the perverse ideas.

and most importantly i found this site. this happened just about the time i was dipping into my dark period. the realization that i was not alone in this nightmare and that there were people who had walked in mt shoes prior was a huge relief. the advice, support, wisdom and compassion i felt from those wonderful people is what pulled me thru this mess. they gave me hope, and the confidence to do the RIGHT things.

now i have to tell you that rb has things together much more then i ever did. i can't say that i remember ever having a plan like he does. also my w although she did the things that i needed intitialy didn't take the extreme steps that it seems his w is doing.

i guess it's just really a matter of sitting down with yourself and finding out what YOU want your life to end up like. what YOU can forgive and tolerate.

you see you have alreday gone much farther along then i feel i could have. you said that you are just 2 months since your "latest" d-day. you see i had one d-day so to speak. (and it was just a formal admission of what i had really known for several weeks) i would never have given my marriage a 3rd, 4th, or 5th chance like some here have endured.

for me this was a one time deal. the A ends now and we move forward together or separately. and i was completely prepared to go that route.

don't know if i helped. you just need to find things that make you feel more confident about who you are or were.



me-59 ww-55
married 1979 - together since 1974
6 kids together 15,19,21,23,29,30
my oldest son 37
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oc born 12/20/01
now 8 grandchildren
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road 1st i would like to address some of the points you posted to tigger.

the chance of om walking back into ouor lives after grace reached an age where it would be her choice is one of the reasons i placed the path we are walking on the table. as you say this can happen to anyone in these circumstances.

what would be the effect on all involved had we just kept the 2 family's separate.

so here is the low down as to the facts in my paricular situation.

1- i (like rb) had had a vasectomy after 7 children. since we were already such a large family it was a big deal to all our close family and friends of our choice for me to get snipped. so everyone that was in our inner circle would know that fh was carrying someone else's baby. also with the light that om was of a different culture it was obvious that grace would have very different physical appearances then the rest of our children.

2- om hand kids near the same age as 3 of ours. we live in a relitively small community for southern calif. they would all be going to the same schools. playing in the same youth sport leagues. contact was inevitable.

in fact my 20 yo son graduated in the same class as om's sd. he coached the hs soccer team with om's son on it. my 17 yo son played on the same soccer team with om's son. grace attends the same elemtary school as om's dd. om drives school busses. i coach girl slacrosse at the hs and he is our driver for several of our away games.

3- at my age heart disease ws a strong possibility since it ran in my family. with our already large family and financial circumstances at the time i thought fh would need all she could get her hands on in the untimely event of my passing.

4- as in rb's case i had a 20 yr marriage and wasn't ready to throw all that history away.

5- my w had forgiven me many of my sins and i felt that at the very least i had to give her the option of trying to do the same for her.

6- although i didn't see a D as the end all to a happy family. i did go thru raising my oldest son in 2 separate houses and knew i didn't want that again if at all possible.

7- even tho i thoought there were valuable lessons to be taught by both a D and staying to work at repairing the marriage. i felt that the biggest lessons that i could pass on to my kids was to work on reconcilliation.

8- as per our conversation from another thread i still feel that as the bio father om had certain rights and responsibilities. and as such they were his choices to make. it was his choice to form the relationship with his d. but it ws his resposibility to pay support for her.

if i had taken that right away and down the road grace would have wanted to seek him out. what would she have thought of me. in 10 - 15 yrs the only position i would have was one of selfishness.

now for your questions here. i have given this much thought. i pushed for cs for all thereasons above and probably a couple more that my old feeble mind can't recall at the moment.

i don't believe that om paying cs has anything to do with fh having a constant reminder of the A. grace is surely enough for that the same as she would be for myself.

the problem fh had was one that i had and my oldest sons mom had way back when. it tears your heart out when a 3,4 or 5 year old is crying her eyes out because they don't want to leave the security of their small 12 day world for a 2 day visit. when that child clings to your neck while trying to hand her to the other parent saying "i don't want to go". and i also know that in 5 minutes she will be fine and have a great weekend.

believe me this tore at my heart strings equallt as bad.

did it slow our recovery down? sure i will agree to that.

but now that it is much easier for grace to go off for her visits. she realizes that she will always be coming back. life has really smoothed out.

another thing that kept us in a state of turmoil was the om's continually taking fh back to court trying to lower his cs and gain more visitation time.

i believe fh HAS been forgiven by God. i know she has been forgiven by me. so the only person left is herself. i think she has done this also.

om would have had all the power saying things like "they kept you from me". the last thing i wanted to do was give him anymore of that.

another thing that kept things hot here was om's now exw. she was very bitter. and i am not faulting her. but she even accused me of wanting fh and her ex h to have the A so we could collect cs. now i can tell you one ting if that had been the case i definately would have found a way to introduce fh to say...bill gates.

since their D and her absence of intervention things have also calmed down here.

on your other post aboout grace's understanding. yes i believe she does unerstand things in an age appropriate manner. she knows that she has a dday (myself) and a poppy (om). she also knows she has 10 brothers, sisters, countless aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews and grandparents that love her dearly.

what does the future hold. can't tell you that. maybe i will reap the benefits that om will buy her a car and pay her insurance when she gets old enough to drive. who knows.


me-59 ww-55
married 1979 - together since 1974
6 kids together 15,19,21,23,29,30
my oldest son 37
d-day (confession day) memorial day 2001
oc born 12/20/01
now 8 grandchildren
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medc. i am the last one to debate theology. i did read the article and found it quite interesting. yet i also read it as one mans experience and opinion. he also assumed that he had given the correct answer so he was ordained. who's to say that there was a right answer. maybe the correct answer for his trial was just one to show that he has an open mind to his theologies.

i did notice that he constantly refered to the law (and i assume)(dangerous i know) that many times he was refering to MAN's law. which as we all know is different then God's law.

also i think you have to look at whether he is referring to Old or New Testament beliefs.

interesting fact. while i was reading it my 20 yo son walked into my room and asked what i was reading. no wthis son was confused aboout 3 years back as to the validity of God and Jesus Christ. his mother was very worried about him and i told her to calm down that he was at a difficult stage of life and he will see the whole picture in due time.

he has since found his direction on his own and has been very religous in his Bible study. much more then myself i am asshamed to say. but when i told him of the content on the article he said "obviously the guy doesn't know what he is talking about".

so i guess as in all different kinds of faith one has to search out the truth for themselves. and since it is just really interpretation then we will all always have different perspectives.


me-59 ww-55
married 1979 - together since 1974
6 kids together 15,19,21,23,29,30
my oldest son 37
d-day (confession day) memorial day 2001
oc born 12/20/01
now 8 grandchildren
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Hey RB. . .

You still here? How are things going with you?

All the best.

Larry

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Thanks for checking in Larry.

There’s not really a lot to update at this point. She continues to work hard at recovery and give me every reason to believe I have made the right decision to stay in this marriage. In all honesty, with the exception of this pregnancy to deal with, our marriage is probably better right now than it has been in a lot of years. I am still working on handling my triggers better and I think I’m getting a lot better at expressing my anger and hurt without LBing. I haven’t posted much lately, but I’ve been reading a lot of the recovery threads to see what I can expect at different points in recovery.

The triggers are getting more frequent as she looks more and more pregnant each day, but I’m handling them pretty well. I knew this was coming and I have prepared myself as well as anyone in my boat could to deal with her growing belly. The biggest trigger usually revolves around SF. That’s when her “condition” is most noticeable to me. I’ve handled it pretty well so far, but there have been a few occasions where I’ve just had to tell her that the trigger was too strong to have SF at that moment and she seemed to understand and deal with it pretty well. The worst part is that when the triggers come, I flashback to d-day and all of the pictures of catching them actually in the act come flooding back.

The hardest thing that has popped up in the past week or so is dealing with questions about her pregnancy and I think she’s having a harder time with that than I am. When we get a comment from a waitress or store clerk, I can see how uncomfortable she becomes. With our 3 kids, she would just light up when anyone made a reference to her pregnancy or the baby, but this time she answers them politely but I can see the pain in her eyes. I feel bad for her sometimes, but I quickly remind myself that this is just the consequences of her poor choices.


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Hi RB,

Good to hear from you. I was wondering. Does she know that you trigger back to when you found them together?? If she does, how is she handling this piece of information? Just general curiousity (sp).

I wonder if she is afraid to show what I will call for lack of better understanding or words, her contentment/satisfaction/?? that most women seem to feel when they are pregnant? If she feels such things, she may fear hurting you if she showed them.

My question is how would/do you feel if she did show such feelings while acknowledging that she wished what was...wasn't?

Have you two talked about this aspect of things???

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

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JL,

I have told her about triggering back to finding them together. She seems to understand my hurt, but I think that it also hurts her deeply to hear how much she has hurt me. She has told me several times that she is understanding the depth of the pain that she has caused more and more with each passing day. Like most waywards, I think she believed early on that we would all just forgive and move on. But, it is becoming increasingly obvious to her that the hurt she caused goes a lot deeper than she first believed and that it will take a lot longer to heal from that hurt (both me and the kids).

I think that on some level that she is not allowing herself to enjoy this pregnancy. She has told me that she feels like she doesn’t deserve to be happy about this baby. She also says that it’s worse when I’m with her because when someone mentions the baby or her pregnancy she feels guilty knowing that it has to hurt me to hear these comments.

I’m really torn about how I feel about this whole thing. On one hand, I can’t help but think that she doesn’t deserve to enjoy this pregnancy. I also have to admit that, depending on my mood, I sometimes associate any good feelings she has about this baby to her having feelings for the OM and get a little angry. But, on the other hand, I know how much it meant to our kids for her to show them pictures from when she was pregnant with them and for them to see how happy she was. I don’t want this child to miss out on that. I also don’t want to look back in 5-10 years and feel guilty for taking that experience away from her and this child. I can remember how excited she always was to sit with me and watch the ultrasound videos over and over. She was constantly wanting me to touch her tummy and feel the baby moving. I know that not being able to share this experience with me is part of the pain she is feeling.

We have talked about all of this. In fact, in the past 2-3 weeks, we have gotten to a place where our conversations are honest on a much deeper level than before and that is helping us begin to really deal with a lot of remaining issues. I have told her that I want her to feel free to enjoy this time with this new baby but to just try to be understanding that I am not quite at the place to be able to share in all of this yet. I know myself well enough to know that once I hold this child that I will have no problem bonding with him/her and I’ve told her this. Unfortunately, I’m not there yet. We are really doing pretty well, but I am learning each day why recovery takes so long. There are just so many issues and feelings to deal with and all we can do is face them one at a time


BH(me)-44
WW - 43
DD20
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