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I don't know if this is the right board to post this, my apologies if it isn't. I'm hoping it is since it's only been a little over 2 weeks since I found out about my DH's EA.

As I mentioned in my introductory post, my DH is a freemason and has been since he was 15 (he started out in DeMolay). He's moving up through the grand lodge line to higher officer positions, and this is very important to him. Part of his obligation to do that is to visit other lodges across the state - and some out of state as well. Since finding out about his EA he's had two out of state events he "had" to attend. He paid for the plane tickets months ago, says he "made a commitment" to go, blah, blah, blah. They're nowhere near the OW, BTW.

I know this is still really early on, but I'm really angry about this. I feel like it's representative of all his selfishness and self-centeredness he's expressed for much of our relationship. I feel like I'm being forced to trust that he's not doing anything he shouldn't be, long before I'm ready to. I'm angry, scared, and hurt, and pretty fed up. He wants to make things work and has made improvements, but he seems to only want to make improvements when it's convenient to his schecule, and I have to spoon-feed the information to him. I want him to be as gung-ho about making changes as I am. Is this too much to ask? I'm just feeling lost right now in all his selfishness, and pretty overwhelmed. There's a side-group affiliated with freemasonry that's all about partying, and he joined it against my wishes. Since joining I found an anonymous letter on the internet (supposedly fake), that alleges prostitution and sex contests go on at some of these events. Also allegations were recently made that some men in a chapter in another state tried to hire girls for prostitution as well, and the FBI is investigating other charges (though the prostitution charges have supposedly been dropped). DH swears none of the prostitution allegations are true, but he really has no way of proving that to me, and refuses to quit. He says he can see my point of view but knows the truth and is willing to modify his attendance - the next upcoming event is in April and he's offered not to stay overnight to prove there's no wrongdoing. I want all remnants of his selfish ways to be gone. I'm willing to not ask he quit freemasonry, but the other group makes me extremely uncomfortable and I'm very upset he's so adamant about staying involved in something he knows is upsetting to me.

Any input? Thanks.


Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


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I feel ya sister.

My husband had a ONS. He feels he can chat with other females and by me being offended by it and asking him to not do it, I am controlling him.

Never mind that the ONS is merely 2 months out in the open to me. I am not ready to trust him or believe what he says. He told me it didn't mean anything before the ONS.

Now, I have every reason to believe it does.

I would be on pins and needles wondering what is going on in there. Sounds like your husband wants do to certain things as well and not give up everything. ((((((((((hugs)))))))))

Last edited by BullyMom; 07/17/08 02:18 PM.

"Do not pray for an easy life, pray for the strength to overcome a difficult one." Bruce Lee

BS (me) 44
WH 39 had ONS on 5-2-08
Recovery started 6-11-08
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Buy your own tickets and go with him. If he won't let you go inside the building, bring a folding chair and a book, and sit outside the building until he comes out. If you see any women go in, call the cops.

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Originally Posted by catperson
Buy your own tickets and go with him. If he won't let you go inside the building, bring a folding chair and a book, and sit outside the building until he comes out. If you see any women go in, call the cops.

And say what?? There's a woman going into a hotel where there's a conference? I do see the point you're making and I mean no disrespect, it just isn't practical. Finances, two small children, work....


Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


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Look, your situation isn't going to be easy, no matter which way you go. You're stuck. You give in and accept what you're given, or you find ways to fight it. He says what will be, and expects you to give in. You have to set boundaries, but be willing to stand by them.

I told my daughter years ago that if I ever found out she skipped school, I was going to quit my job, take her to school every day, and sit there until school is over, for however many weeks it takes her to realize I'm serious.

Not saying you have to be that extreme, but there is no magic pill to this. He is railroading you because he knows you won't do anything about it.

Find some other boundary. "You won't quit it? Ok, go ahead and go. But when you get back your new bed will be set up in the garage. Have fun."

He won't respect you until you do.

And btw, if he can afford to go, why can't you? He pulls money out of the bank for it, you do it too. Take a vacation day. Ask your friends if the kids can stay with them overnight. Or better yet, take the kids on vacation somewhere and let him pay for it.

And what would I say if I called the police? I'd say I just saw two hookers walking into the building and some men in there paying them money. Doesn't have to be proven, just enough to get the cops there and shake up their activities.

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About the money - he gets a stipend from the grand lodge specifically to fund him doing these trips. He has it in a separate account that I don't have access to.

You're right about the boundaries. This has been a long-standing fight with him and I guess I'm just tired and frustrated.

Originally Posted by catperson
Look, your situation isn't going to be easy, no matter which way you go. You're stuck. You give in and accept what you're given, or you find ways to fight it. He says what will be, and expects you to give in. You have to set boundaries, but be willing to stand by them.

I told my daughter years ago that if I ever found out she skipped school, I was going to quit my job, take her to school every day, and sit there until school is over, for however many weeks it takes her to realize I'm serious.

Not saying you have to be that extreme, but there is no magic pill to this. He is railroading you because he knows you won't do anything about it.

Find some other boundary. "You won't quit it? Ok, go ahead and go. But when you get back your new bed will be set up in the garage. Have fun."

He won't respect you until you do.

And btw, if he can afford to go, why can't you? He pulls money out of the bank for it, you do it too. Take a vacation day. Ask your friends if the kids can stay with them overnight. Or better yet, take the kids on vacation somewhere and let him pay for it.

And what would I say if I called the police? I'd say I just saw two hookers walking into the building and some men in there paying them money. Doesn't have to be proven, just enough to get the cops there and shake up their activities.


Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


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Originally Posted by catperson
Find some other boundary. "You won't quit it? Ok, go ahead and go. But when you get back your new bed will be set up in the garage. Have fun."

He won't respect you until you do.

Your words have stuck with me. I emailed him and told him I want him to quit the Jesters (among some other things). He's adamant about wanting to work on us, but wants to keep his membership - just never go. I don't get that.

I've totally been his doormat and that's the main reason I was miserable and couldn't attend to his EN. One way or another, it's got to stop.


Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


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Your WH is just like mine...he is standing firm on the idea that he should not have to change his life just because YOU don't like it. I think it has to do with the early stages of recovery. Mine is starting to change his thinking but we have been at it for almost six months now...not very long in recovery terms.

I think Cat is right. You need to show H that these boundaries are non-negotiable for you. Don't try to control him. Just state what your boundary requirements are and leave it at that. If he chooses to go outside of those boundaries, then make it clear that you will not participate in your M until he is willing to respect your need for these boundaries. Your H has been allowed to do whatever he feels like so anything you suggest that impinges on his freedom is going to be seen as controlling from him. But it's not. You are asking him to behave the way he should have been behaving throughout your M.

I understand the real-life trouble too. My H wanted to go on a trip within the first few months and I just wasn't ready for him to do it. My H stepped up when he realized that I was falling apart and instead of him not going, we ALL went...all five of us drove 8 hours each way (instead of H flying) and the boys and I went sight-seeing while H was in the conference. It wasn't a perfect solution, but it worked.


BW 37 (Me).
F?WH 35.
06/97 Married.
Three sons...4, 5, and 7.
06/04 EA begins (Unknown to me).
02/10/05 D-Day EA (Unknown PA).
02/24/08 D-Day LTA 3+ YEARS! (same OW).


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Originally Posted by hicktownmommy
Your WH is just like mine...he is standing firm on the idea that he should not have to change his life just because YOU don't like it. I think it has to do with the early stages of recovery. Mine is starting to change his thinking but we have been at it for almost six months now...not very long in recovery terms.

I think Cat is right. You need to show H that these boundaries are non-negotiable for you. Don't try to control him. Just state what your boundary requirements are and leave it at that. If he chooses to go outside of those boundaries, then make it clear that you will not participate in your M until he is willing to respect your need for these boundaries. Your H has been allowed to do whatever he feels like so anything you suggest that impinges on his freedom is going to be seen as controlling from him. But it's not. You are asking him to behave the way he should have been behaving throughout your M.

I understand the real-life trouble too. My H wanted to go on a trip within the first few months and I just wasn't ready for him to do it. My H stepped up when he realized that I was falling apart and instead of him not going, we ALL went...all five of us drove 8 hours each way (instead of H flying) and the boys and I went sight-seeing while H was in the conference. It wasn't a perfect solution, but it worked.

I guess I'm not sure how to strike a balance, then. What I told him was he has to earn trust back, and him being a member of a group that a) I didn't want him to join in the first place and b) that has rumors of prostitution (though none locally) isn't exactly conducive to that, and I want him to quit. He says he knows the truth about the group and says I'm "bullying" him, by saying either he quits Jesters (rather than ALL of freemasonry - pretty generous is you ask me), or he finds someplace else to live.

Nevermind the fact that he bullied me all throughout our marriage and said "if you ask me to quit anything, I'll resent you forever." mad I tried too hard to make it work according to his rules and became a doormat. Now that I've put my foot down and said enough is enough, suddenly I'm the bad guy? I'm the bully? He really thinks it's rational that he have an EA and then he gets to keep his life exactly as it was before? He says he recognizes that things as they were contributed to both of us being unhappy, but still he clings to this like it's his last penny or something.

Am I being controlling, or is this a good boundary?


Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


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.

Last edited by broken_soul; 07/19/08 06:26 AM.

Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


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Wow.

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I think that you need to take an inventory of what YOU need in order to feel safe and happy in your M. If your H continues to go to these meetings, do you think that you will eventually trust him or will you always feel unsure?

It is reasonable to have boundaries in a M. One of the things that my H and I used to fight over is that he would do things that he didn't think were bad and I would tell him that I was uncomfortable with them. He would say that I was controlling him and I would argue that if it hurts me when he does something, that should be enough reason NOT to do it. That was during the A...during a time where he had not realized he needed to participate in our M.

NOW, if it is something that hurts me, he tries to avoid it.

It is ok to tell your H that you are uncomfortable with what he is doing and that you do not feel safe in your M the way that it is. You are not giving him an ultimatum...you are telling him how you feel and you are doing something to protect yourself from hurting.

He is gaslighting you into believing that YOU are the problem. That YOU are too controlling. That YOU are the one with the issues and the unreasonable expectations. He has gotten his way for a long time, of course he's going to resist when you start to expect things for yourself. Look up gaslighting in google...I think you may be amazed at what you have been dealing with.

It is hard to do these things from where you are at. I know. You have to reach a point where you decide that you are NOT going to let your M look like this anymore. You have to be unhappy enough to demand change.

Most WS don't want to lose their M. They want to keep it...but they want to keep their other activities too. They will try to manipulate the situation into making you believe that you are better off letting them have what they want. It is easy to forget that THEY need YOU too. If they didn't, they would have left.

HTM


BW 37 (Me).
F?WH 35.
06/97 Married.
Three sons...4, 5, and 7.
06/04 EA begins (Unknown to me).
02/10/05 D-Day EA (Unknown PA).
02/24/08 D-Day LTA 3+ YEARS! (same OW).


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I always wonder ....


Quote
Nevermind the fact that he bullied me all throughout our marriage and said "if you ask me to quit anything, I'll resent you forever."


when someone writes something like this - which boils down to long term marriage terrorism - what on God's Green Earth do you say to yourself that keeps you where you are?

Do you say:

I deserve this.
I can change him.
This is my fault.
But, I love him.
He's not always this mean.


What keeps your suitcase empty after a remark like this one?
What is your thought process. THOUGHT process - not your emotional process.

I don't get it. Please help me out.

Pep


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Having been there myself, I think it is something that happens slowly over time. You come to a point where somehow reality is warped enough that you believe that this is the way it is with everyone and that your H does love you even when he isn't that nice.

I know that for me, while rationally I could see that H was emotionally abusing me, I was stuck thinking that our relationship was the one thing that I HAD to hold onto. I don't know if it is something that an abuser creates within the abused...but no matter how strong you are, you somehow succumb to this altered understanding that you NEED your H and that if you only love him BETTER he will change.

This is coming from a woman with a masters degree in education, a strong family upbringing, and an intelligent mind. I am not a wimp...but somehow, when you are in the thick of it, you can't seem to see it for what it really is.

HTM


BW 37 (Me).
F?WH 35.
06/97 Married.
Three sons...4, 5, and 7.
06/04 EA begins (Unknown to me).
02/10/05 D-Day EA (Unknown PA).
02/24/08 D-Day LTA 3+ YEARS! (same OW).


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I get this:


Quote
when you are in the thick of it, you can't seem to see it for what it really is


I don't get this:


Quote
throughout our marriage


this means the marriage started out this unbalanced .... why do people choose an unbalanced situation where they basically say "I have no rights. What I want does not matter."?

Pep





Last edited by Pepperband; 07/19/08 01:58 PM. Reason: added thought
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Quote
I know that for me, while rationally I could see that H was emotionally abusing me, I was stuck thinking that our relationship was the one thing that I HAD to hold onto.

so, what did you SAY to yourself ....?

This is all I have?
It sucks but it's better than nothing?
He used to hurt me worse?

What did you say to you that kept your suitcase unpacked?

Pep

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I bet it's this:

No one else would want me.

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I think somewhere inside I was probably saying that I would never find better, but that maybe it would GET better...but I didn't consciuosly SAY that to myself. It's hard to describe until you've been there.

I would get angry and fight with him about some things that he did or said, but in the end, I would be the one who returned to him later and apologized for fighting with him. I think it was in the hopes that he would do the same (which he didn't usually do).

It's a codependent relationship where you can't imagine yourself without your spouse. You know that you would be fine (if not better) but the fear of losing him outweighs that rationality. You are hooked on him like a drug. Actually that's a really good analogy...you know it's not the best thing for you and that you could probably be healthier without him, but you aren't willing to give him up.

It's twisted, I know. From the inside, it is SO foggy...you can't see your way out. It frustrated the heck out of my friends and family...because they could see it and I couldn't.


BW 37 (Me).
F?WH 35.
06/97 Married.
Three sons...4, 5, and 7.
06/04 EA begins (Unknown to me).
02/10/05 D-Day EA (Unknown PA).
02/24/08 D-Day LTA 3+ YEARS! (same OW).


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Yes, I think that fear of nobody else wanting me was there too.

I had a very abusive boyfriend in high school and I found that the only way I could escape the relationship was to end it and then have NC ever again, because he could ALWAYS persuade me back into it. I came away with it feeling ashamed of my body (which was beautiful) because he taught me not to show it off. I came away from it saying "He only hit me three times, but twice I deserved it." How sick is that?

I think that you sort of feel like, yeah, it's not great all the time, but it's better than being alone and completely unloved. I think some of it stems from a fear of being alone.



BW 37 (Me).
F?WH 35.
06/97 Married.
Three sons...4, 5, and 7.
06/04 EA begins (Unknown to me).
02/10/05 D-Day EA (Unknown PA).
02/24/08 D-Day LTA 3+ YEARS! (same OW).


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Posts: 35,996
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Thanks for your reply.

I understand completely what you are saying.


Have you read Passionate Marriage by Schnarch?
Schnarch's fundamental lesson is differentiation--the often threatening process of defining yourself as separate from your partner, which inevitably draws you closer to your partner than you ever dreamed possible.

actually this is a working early marriage:
Quote
It's a codependent relationship where you can't imagine yourself without your spouse.


Schnarch describes how this happens - and then why it must be broken, at a later stage of marriage -

In a nutshell:

If my view of myself, my identity as a person, depends on what my spouse thinks, I essentially hold my spouse hostage - I resist any changes - I experience any changes as a threat


It's a difficult read - very much like taking a college course - I think you'd find it fascinating.

Pep

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