I don't know if this is the right board to post this, my apologies if it isn't. I'm hoping it is since it's only been a little over 2 weeks since I found out about my DH's EA.

As I mentioned in my introductory post, my DH is a freemason and has been since he was 15 (he started out in DeMolay). He's moving up through the grand lodge line to higher officer positions, and this is very important to him. Part of his obligation to do that is to visit other lodges across the state - and some out of state as well. Since finding out about his EA he's had two out of state events he "had" to attend. He paid for the plane tickets months ago, says he "made a commitment" to go, blah, blah, blah. They're nowhere near the OW, BTW.

I know this is still really early on, but I'm really angry about this. I feel like it's representative of all his selfishness and self-centeredness he's expressed for much of our relationship. I feel like I'm being forced to trust that he's not doing anything he shouldn't be, long before I'm ready to. I'm angry, scared, and hurt, and pretty fed up. He wants to make things work and has made improvements, but he seems to only want to make improvements when it's convenient to his schecule, and I have to spoon-feed the information to him. I want him to be as gung-ho about making changes as I am. Is this too much to ask? I'm just feeling lost right now in all his selfishness, and pretty overwhelmed. There's a side-group affiliated with freemasonry that's all about partying, and he joined it against my wishes. Since joining I found an anonymous letter on the internet (supposedly fake), that alleges prostitution and sex contests go on at some of these events. Also allegations were recently made that some men in a chapter in another state tried to hire girls for prostitution as well, and the FBI is investigating other charges (though the prostitution charges have supposedly been dropped). DH swears none of the prostitution allegations are true, but he really has no way of proving that to me, and refuses to quit. He says he can see my point of view but knows the truth and is willing to modify his attendance - the next upcoming event is in April and he's offered not to stay overnight to prove there's no wrongdoing. I want all remnants of his selfish ways to be gone. I'm willing to not ask he quit freemasonry, but the other group makes me extremely uncomfortable and I'm very upset he's so adamant about staying involved in something he knows is upsetting to me.

Any input? Thanks.

I feel ya sister.

My husband had a ONS. He feels he can chat with other females and by me being offended by it and asking him to not do it, I am controlling him.

Never mind that the ONS is merely 2 months out in the open to me. I am not ready to trust him or believe what he says. He told me it didn't mean anything before the ONS.

Now, I have every reason to believe it does.

I would be on pins and needles wondering what is going on in there. Sounds like your husband wants do to certain things as well and not give up everything. ((((((((((hugs)))))))))

Buy your own tickets and go with him. If he won't let you go inside the building, bring a folding chair and a book, and sit outside the building until he comes out. If you see any women go in, call the cops.

And say what?? There's a woman going into a hotel where there's a conference? I do see the point you're making and I mean no disrespect, it just isn't practical. Finances, two small children, work....

Look, your situation isn't going to be easy, no matter which way you go. You're stuck. You give in and accept what you're given, or you find ways to fight it. He says what will be, and expects you to give in. You have to set boundaries, but be willing to stand by them.

I told my daughter years ago that if I ever found out she skipped school, I was going to quit my job, take her to school every day, and sit there until school is over, for however many weeks it takes her to realize I'm serious.

Not saying you have to be that extreme, but there is no magic pill to this. He is railroading you because he knows you won't do anything about it.

Find some other boundary. "You won't quit it? Ok, go ahead and go. But when you get back your new bed will be set up in the garage. Have fun."

He won't respect you until you do.

And btw, if he can afford to go, why can't you? He pulls money out of the bank for it, you do it too. Take a vacation day. Ask your friends if the kids can stay with them overnight. Or better yet, take the kids on vacation somewhere and let him pay for it.

And what would I say if I called the police? I'd say I just saw two hookers walking into the building and some men in there paying them money. Doesn't have to be proven, just enough to get the cops there and shake up their activities.

About the money - he gets a stipend from the grand lodge specifically to fund him doing these trips. He has it in a separate account that I don't have access to.

You're right about the boundaries. This has been a long-standing fight with him and I guess I'm just tired and frustrated.

Your words have stuck with me. I emailed him and told him I want him to quit the Jesters (among some other things). He's adamant about wanting to work on us, but wants to keep his membership - just never go. I don't get that.

I've totally been his doormat and that's the main reason I was miserable and couldn't attend to his EN. One way or another, it's got to stop.

Your WH is just like mine...he is standing firm on the idea that he should not have to change his life just because YOU don't like it. I think it has to do with the early stages of recovery. Mine is starting to change his thinking but we have been at it for almost six months now...not very long in recovery terms.

I think Cat is right. You need to show H that these boundaries are non-negotiable for you. Don't try to control him. Just state what your boundary requirements are and leave it at that. If he chooses to go outside of those boundaries, then make it clear that you will not participate in your M until he is willing to respect your need for these boundaries. Your H has been allowed to do whatever he feels like so anything you suggest that impinges on his freedom is going to be seen as controlling from him. But it's not. You are asking him to behave the way he should have been behaving throughout your M.

I understand the real-life trouble too. My H wanted to go on a trip within the first few months and I just wasn't ready for him to do it. My H stepped up when he realized that I was falling apart and instead of him not going, we ALL went...all five of us drove 8 hours each way (instead of H flying) and the boys and I went sight-seeing while H was in the conference. It wasn't a perfect solution, but it worked.

I guess I'm not sure how to strike a balance, then. What I told him was he has to earn trust back, and him being a member of a group that a) I didn't want him to join in the first place and b) that has rumors of prostitution (though none locally) isn't exactly conducive to that, and I want him to quit. He says he knows the truth about the group and says I'm "bullying" him, by saying either he quits Jesters (rather than ALL of freemasonry - pretty generous is you ask me), or he finds someplace else to live.

Nevermind the fact that he bullied me all throughout our marriage and said "if you ask me to quit anything, I'll resent you forever." I tried too hard to make it work according to his rules and became a doormat. Now that I've put my foot down and said enough is enough, suddenly I'm the bad guy? I'm the bully? He really thinks it's rational that he have an EA and then he gets to keep his life exactly as it was before? He says he recognizes that things as they were contributed to both of us being unhappy, but still he clings to this like it's his last penny or something.

Am I being controlling, or is this a good boundary?

.

Wow.

I think that you need to take an inventory of what YOU need in order to feel safe and happy in your M. If your H continues to go to these meetings, do you think that you will eventually trust him or will you always feel unsure?

It is reasonable to have boundaries in a M. One of the things that my H and I used to fight over is that he would do things that he didn't think were bad and I would tell him that I was uncomfortable with them. He would say that I was controlling him and I would argue that if it hurts me when he does something, that should be enough reason NOT to do it. That was during the A...during a time where he had not realized he needed to participate in our M.

NOW, if it is something that hurts me, he tries to avoid it.

It is ok to tell your H that you are uncomfortable with what he is doing and that you do not feel safe in your M the way that it is. You are not giving him an ultimatum...you are telling him how you feel and you are doing something to protect yourself from hurting.

He is gaslighting you into believing that YOU are the problem. That YOU are too controlling. That YOU are the one with the issues and the unreasonable expectations. He has gotten his way for a long time, of course he's going to resist when you start to expect things for yourself. Look up gaslighting in google...I think you may be amazed at what you have been dealing with.

It is hard to do these things from where you are at. I know. You have to reach a point where you decide that you are NOT going to let your M look like this anymore. You have to be unhappy enough to demand change.

Most WS don't want to lose their M. They want to keep it...but they want to keep their other activities too. They will try to manipulate the situation into making you believe that you are better off letting them have what they want. It is easy to forget that THEY need YOU too. If they didn't, they would have left.

HTM

I always wonder ....




when someone writes something like this - which boils down to long term marriage terrorism - what on God's Green Earth do you say to yourself that keeps you where you are?

Do you say:

I deserve this.
I can change him.
This is my fault.
But, I love him.
He's not always this mean.

What keeps your suitcase empty after a remark like this one?
What is your thought process. THOUGHT process - not your emotional process.

I don't get it. Please help me out.

Pep

Having been there myself, I think it is something that happens slowly over time. You come to a point where somehow reality is warped enough that you believe that this is the way it is with everyone and that your H does love you even when he isn't that nice.

I know that for me, while rationally I could see that H was emotionally abusing me, I was stuck thinking that our relationship was the one thing that I HAD to hold onto. I don't know if it is something that an abuser creates within the abused...but no matter how strong you are, you somehow succumb to this altered understanding that you NEED your H and that if you only love him BETTER he will change.

This is coming from a woman with a masters degree in education, a strong family upbringing, and an intelligent mind. I am not a wimp...but somehow, when you are in the thick of it, you can't seem to see it for what it really is.

HTM

I get this:




I don't get this:




this means the marriage started out this unbalanced .... why do people choose an unbalanced situation where they basically say "I have no rights. What I want does not matter."?

Pep

so, what did you SAY to yourself ....?

This is all I have?
It sucks but it's better than nothing?
He used to hurt me worse?

What did you say to you that kept your suitcase unpacked?

Pep

I bet it's this:

No one else would want me.

I think somewhere inside I was probably saying that I would never find better, but that maybe it would GET better...but I didn't consciuosly SAY that to myself. It's hard to describe until you've been there.

I would get angry and fight with him about some things that he did or said, but in the end, I would be the one who returned to him later and apologized for fighting with him. I think it was in the hopes that he would do the same (which he didn't usually do).

It's a codependent relationship where you can't imagine yourself without your spouse. You know that you would be fine (if not better) but the fear of losing him outweighs that rationality. You are hooked on him like a drug. Actually that's a really good analogy...you know it's not the best thing for you and that you could probably be healthier without him, but you aren't willing to give him up.

It's twisted, I know. From the inside, it is SO foggy...you can't see your way out. It frustrated the heck out of my friends and family...because they could see it and I couldn't.

Yes, I think that fear of nobody else wanting me was there too.

I had a very abusive boyfriend in high school and I found that the only way I could escape the relationship was to end it and then have NC ever again, because he could ALWAYS persuade me back into it. I came away with it feeling ashamed of my body (which was beautiful) because he taught me not to show it off. I came away from it saying "He only hit me three times, but twice I deserved it." How sick is that?

I think that you sort of feel like, yeah, it's not great all the time, but it's better than being alone and completely unloved. I think some of it stems from a fear of being alone.

Thanks for your reply.

I understand completely what you are saying.


Have you read Passionate Marriage by Schnarch?
Schnarch's fundamental lesson is differentiation--the often threatening process of defining yourself as separate from your partner, which inevitably draws you closer to your partner than you ever dreamed possible.

actually this is a working early marriage:


Schnarch describes how this happens - and then why it must be broken, at a later stage of marriage -

In a nutshell:

If my view of myself, my identity as a person, depends on what my spouse thinks, I essentially hold my spouse hostage - I resist any changes - I experience any changes as a threat


It's a difficult read - very much like taking a college course - I think you'd find it fascinating.

Pep

I haven't read it. It does sound interesting. I will look it up. Luckily, I think my H and I have come to a point in our M where neither one of us would stand for that kind of behavior anymore.

HTM

Have you guys read the thread on EN from youngandlearning? She's a perfect example of the abuse victim's mindset. In the end, she gave up on us because we expected more from her than she was willing to give. In other words, she most likely went back to her abusive fiance for the third or fourth time since she started posting. She admitted she was ashamed, but couldn't help herself.

I remember my boyfriend in high school, he was 3 years older than me. When I was a senior, he told me that he didn't think I was mature enough for him. He could be dating college girls, but he was still here giving me a chance. But he gave me my 'last chance.' He told me I had six months to 'grow up' or else he was going to have to go find someone better. In my mind, he had every right to say that. I begged him to give me that chance, of course. I never could get rid of him until I started working at a stereo store where I was the only girl, and all the guys there basically gave me my courage to leave him. When I finally left him, he left my apartment once, came back, so then I left cos he wouldn't. When I got to my car, it wouldn't start - he had gone out to take the rotor out so I couldn't leave him. Finally got to a phone and called my friend's dad. But through it all, I didn't realize, had no idea, how bad he was. Cos I was stuck in the middle of it.

I'm going to read that book, too. Thanks.

DH and I were just talking about this tonight (what I was thinking about his bullying).

In the beginning I thought he was making a bigger deal out of things than was warranted to emphasize that lodge was important to him. I had absolutely no way of knowing what his involvement was going to look like, because it's evolved over time. Because my parents are so dysfunctional, I was determined to do things differently. I thought it was my responsibility to learn to adapt. For me, it really didn't have anything to do with thoughts like - oh nobody else could love me, or anything like that. Before I met DH I had dumped an abusive boyfriend where I DID have that thought process, and learned otherwise - that I AM lovable.

Now, don't throw things at me, lol. I'm being honest...for me it really was a misguided attempt at having a healthy marriage. I made a HUGE mistake by ignoring what he was saying, squashing down my own thoughts/emotions to accomodate him. I can't emphasize enough what a big mistake I now know that to be. My eyes weren't opened to it until his EA - that's when I saw what I was doing and how I contributed to the mess we're in (note: I DO NOT accept blame for his decision).

He and I have a really long history of hurting each other - MAJOR LB's going on at our house. We were horrible at communication, and often didn't communicate at all. I'm angry and hurt at his past behaviors and at him going to that damn meeting, and he knows it.

I'm in a moment right now where I'm somewhat glad for the wakeup call with the EA...I just wish I could have learned the lesson a different way.

FWIW, we're doing a lot of great talking and getting some things sorted out. He very much wants things to work. I honestly believe if he was looking for an "out", he would have found someone locally and had a PA. It isn't perfect right now - it's still very early on and we have a long way to go, hopefully the marriage counselor will be helpful toward that end. At least we're talking and he's being very open and has no problem with any questions or any monitoring I'm doing. I feel like it's a step in the right direction.

I think it's great that you are recognizing your needs again. You sound SO MUCH like me. I had the abusive boyfriend that was so hard to leave...then I met H and I felt like he allowed (even encouraged) me to speak up for myself. But I somehow slipped back into my old pattern of accommodating, which allowed space for his A. We have never had a problem with LBs all the time, but we are working together now.

I think if you can help your H to understand that you are trying to rebuild your M and you want him to help too, he may be more willing. Watching your H's actions is how you can know he is committed.

Have you read the book Surviving an Affair? It was VERY helpful for me...and I think it addresses EAs as well as PAs. The other book that has really helped us is His Needs, Her Needs. It gives insight into WHAT each others needs are and ways to meet those needs. If your H is willing to work on the books with you, it might give you some added information to work with.

HTM

Yeah looking back I can't believe I made that mistake. I don't have a good example of what marriage is supposed to be like, so I'm kind of winging it (I know - who isn't?). All I knew is I wanted my marriage to be different from my parents' - my mother is extremely emotionally/verbally abusive to those around her, and I didn't want what their marriage is. Hindsight really is 20/20.

DH wants this to work as much as I do and he's been really receptive. I know that not everyone would agree, but for right now I don't think trying to force him to quit something is the solution for us - it just totally got us into a power struggle. He is willing, however, to radically modify how he does things - no more going to the bar after meetings (which is how he met the OW - socializing with her BF after a lodge meeting at a bar), bringing me along to stuff - he's even putting the group I had the biggest issue with on the back burner. He would have an overnight event with them twice a year. He's scrapping one of those in exchange for an overnight event we both go to, and he willingly agreed to not stay overnight for the other one. This is just some of the stuff that he's changing.

I fully plan on ordering both of the books you mentioned - I just have to wait until I get paid on Friday. Like you said - the abusive boyfriend was so hard to leave. I wasted 7 years of my life with him.

I'm grateful for the lesson this has taught me. I still have a very long road ahead of me as far as us healing our marriage, and me healing the emotional damage from his EA. This is by far the most painful thing I've ever gone through in my entire life, but at the same time, had the EA turned physical I wouldn't have been able to attempt reconciliation, I don't think. This was enough to get me to open my eyes to see where I was making mistakes without (hopefully) completely destroying my marriage. DH has that attitude too - we've been talking a LOT. Probably more than we ever have, and it feels like we've got a good start so far. I really hope we can keep the momentum going because we really do love each other.

I had originally posted something similar over on the general questions board as well, and a couple people just insisted on trying to debate about freemasonry, rather than be helpful about my situation. I appreciate that not coming up here because that's not what I came here for - I'm in enough pain as it is without having to try to defend myself too, ya know?

Sounds like you could just find ways to ENHANCE your skills in M...even with the A, that's the thing that my H and I are working on the most. We are finding ways to meet each others needs in a more conscious style. We are aware of the time that we dedicate to each other and we try to make it meaningful. I think laziness sometimes takes over in M.

As for conversation, yeah, you know a lot about your H, but maybe not everything. Have you done the Personal History Questionnaire? I thought I knew my H, but there was lots more to learn. I've also started reading about HIS favorite subjects to give me more to talk with him about...it's amazing how much you can learn about media consoles if you really look.

bs, try your local library. That's where I get a lot of these books.

That's a great idea - I'll have to do that. Thanks!

How are you doing today?

HTM

I'm up & down. I don't feel like he fully gets how this has impacted me. It's been less than 3 weeks and I've lost 8 lbs. I'm forcing myself to eat but I'm nauseous all the time, so it's hard. Anxiety is through the roof - and when his phone rings or he gets on the computer my heart starts pounding. He doesn't seem to think that what he did was cheating - he acknowledges he "wronged" me, but seems to think cheating only involves sexual contact. He admitted this EA was probably heading towards a PA - so how in the heck he doesn't see this as cheating is beyond me. I guess he's in denial. I can't help but think of what he was doing (if you catch my drift) in response to the things she texted him, and him fantasizing about her. I know I shouldn't do that to myself but I can't help my mind from going there.

All those moments she stole, that he gave away. That's what kills me. Our anniversary, Christmas, Valentine's Day, my birthday, his birthday....he was involved with her and she was on his mind - he wasn't totally mine. Sometimes I think I ought to have an affair just to give him a taste of his own medicine - so he can hurt like I hurt. I wouldn't really go out and do that, but it does enter my mind sometimes.

wow, i know how you feel.
i found out in oct '07 the day after our amazing cruise to hawaii. now all the memory of hawaii is gone, i hate it. he was calling her all the time from there. i thought he was calling work about work.

anyway i too lost 40 lbs, had nervous breakdown, he knew it because he saw me. he thought i was faking it. anything i said to him, he didn't believe. but everything she said to him, he believed. my birthday, thanksgiving, christmas, new years, valentine, mothers day, my son rotc inspection ceremony, rotc year end acheivement ceremony, military ball, prom. (came, gone, ruined).... he didn't care. (and no my son didn't go to his military ball and his prom).

my life was ripped apart. someone else was in my h thoughts. he protected her, and belittled me. i was thrown out to the curb.

the one question even after reading surviving an affair.
if we are the one that was so badly beaten, why put in love banks. i just want to take a 2X4 and bash his head in. boy would i be making a lovebust there. why are we the one that has to put in the love banks and avoid lovebust.

I Dont Get It.....when the WS didn't care about BS.
This is worse than death and the WS don't get it.
That pisses me off to no degree.

Please help me on this........because every day i seem to get angrier and angrier...

I had a dream in the first few weeks after d-day that my H told me that our second child wasn't mine...it was OWs. Of course this was impossible, not only because I gave birth to him, but also because he was born before we knew OW. But it was a clear picture of my mind trying to figure out what OW had stolen from me and what was still mine.

I still struggle with that. I ran across a picture that I know OW was there...and I HATE the picture for it, but it is a picture that I love of my H and DS and I refuse to get rid of it because then somehow I feel like OW stole that moment from me.

Some things you have to accept as gone forever. Some things you can stake a claim on and fight for. Some things you will have to try to reclaim one way or another. It's not fair and it's something that can easily bring me to anger (a feeling I have trouble finding).

There is no easy answer. You were violated. Your past WAS stolen from you. Hold on to the things that were good for you and fight!

HTM

Is there any hope for his ongoing selfishness though? He seems willing to recognize selfish behaviors when I call him on them and seems genuinely remorseful - but he can't yet recognize it on his own. He was taught to be selfish - his mother is as well.

Yes, if he's interested in changing. If so, you two can work out a system. Maybe a hand signal when he does something that he wants to change. Or plan to meet once a week and talk about such things.

It's a habit that your H has learned and unlearning it takes time. I had a piano teacher once who told me that every time I made a mistake, I had to do it correctly ten times to erase that mistake from my memory. I think that's about right.

I like the idea of a signal. My H and I use one for when I get on a roll in a conversation and he needs me to stop...he says "runaway train." I think the trick with a signal is that you both must understand the meaning of the signal. H needs to understand that you are giving him the signal when you are feeling hurt by his actions...you are not giving him the signal in an attempt to TEACH him the right way to do something (that would be disrespectful).

HTM

That's a good idea, I like the signal suggestion.

I know we have a lonnnnnnnnng road ahead - I mean it's only been 3 weeks since d-day. He's trying, but he's limiting how much he's willing to try. He says if I make him give up any aspect of lodge, I'm being vindictive. I think I've been pretty freaking generous (maybe TOO generous). He's willing to do anything else but give up any aspect of lodge. I think he's being selfish. He's willing to cut it down to almost nothing, but not give it up permanently. That's been the crux of our problem all along - him putting lodge above me. I know he loves me, but battling a lifetime of self-centerdness is going to be tough I think.

IDK, it's so hard to know what's right sometimes.

I would say that for now you might need to shelf the lodge discussion. It's just a big LB right now and since he's cut it way back, he is making some effort.

Work on everything else. If your H is showing you through his actions that he is committed to recovery in every other way, then I would wait on the lodge discussion.

You are so early in recovery. Your H is still foggy and is going to balk at the new expectations...he sees them as restrictions because he doesn't get that they are protective measures yet.

Work on your 15 hours of fun a week meeting each others ENs. Work on the other basic principles...being honest, accounting for time, agreeing on things together (POJA)...with time your H will probably see that there is a reason for leaving the lodge. And in time, you may find a place where you are more comfortable with his participation.

Give it time.

HTM

Thanks. I think that's what I needed to hear.

He is making HUGE efforts in every other way. I'm just afraid of things going back to the way they were. I guess if I keep harping on it though that's exactly what'll happen.

Consider if you lived to play piano. It gives you joy. You've done it all your life. You play every day. You can't even imagine being in a house with no piano. One day, you find out your H secretly hates the piano. It brings back bad memories, and makes him miserable every time he hears you play it. He finally tells you, and says he can't be with you any more if piano is going to be that important to you - he just can't love that person who puts piano above everything.

So you compromise. You promise you'll never play it again when he's home. Your together time will be about both of you. He stills hates seeing that piano, cos he knows you still play it, but he can deal with it because he loves you and doesn't want to crush you, he just doesn't want to be in pain.

So is the compromise a good one?

Here's what he offered up:

~ He would normally go on two overnight Jester events a year. He said he'd substitute one, for an overnight event that WE go to through the grand lodge. The other one (which is always local), he'd go do his part in their event, maybe hang out for a little while, then come home - he'd be gone a few hours rather than 2 days. He also volunteered to bring me to ladies' functions to acquaint me with the group.

~ He'd skip Thursday night lodge meetings at least through the end of the year, at which time we'll re-evaluate. He met the OW, if you recall, hanging out at the bar w/her BF (another mason) after a Thursday night lodge meeting.

~ He'll stop going to the bar after any lodge event, at least temporarily, and knows I may require this permanently (and doesn't seem to have an issue with it).

~ He has a handful of events coming up (local), and says he'll go and come right home (which will equate to a few hours each time). We'll also look at me going with him to overnight lodge visitations, which are a required part of him moving up through the grand lodge line.

~ He also volunteered to start bringing me to more events overall to try to make this more of a mutual event rather than a "him" event.

~ He also agreed to the POJA, being 100% accountable for his whereabouts, he's been totally transparent about his cell (I check online and I can check his phone with no argument from him), and I monitor his email with no argument from him. I also installed keylogging software (he doesn't know), and he's hardly been on the computer since d-day. He's been far more receptive too when I talk to him than he was pre d-day, he also seems to be much more honest. He's answered every question regarding OW without attitude and has been very forthright - no hesitation. Before he would do everything he could to cover up even the smallest stuff. So far everything he's told me has checked out.

~ He wants us to do things together, where before we didn't. He willingly took the EN questionnaire and says (though yet has to do) he'll come to this site and read up.

Now when I posted this over on the General Discussion board, a couple people were telling me I didn't expose enough (him, my brother, OW boyfriend, and OW), and that I should make him quit lodge altogether, along with the debate about freemasonry in general (which obviously, I didn't come here to do). I disagreed with that because I knew doing those things would further inflame the situation and he'd just dig in his heels. He gave up ALL contact with OW immediately (which was easier because she lives several states away), and had he not done that, then yes, I would at least do more exposure, if not require he quit all of lodge altogether as well. She even texted him two days after he called her and ended things, and he texted back "we can't talk anymore - ever." There has been no attempted contact on either side. It probably helps that I blocked her number from texting him, but still.

The Jesters has always been a thorn in our side because of some rumors going around and I didn't like him going away for 2 days to drink & gamble, but he's making radical changes toward that. He says he's not willing to totally give it up though because it's by invite-only, and being invited is an honor, and he'd been working toward it for years. He says that by making those changes I mentioned, along with bringing me to the ladies' programs that he thinks I'll become more comfortable with it because I'll see there's nothing to be afraid of.

So maybe (very possibly), my feeling like he's still taking advantage is really fear that he'll take advantage, because that's how it's always been. Partly because of him and partly because I allowed it - and I really do want this to work, so anything resembling like old habits freaks me out. So am I being unreasonable by feeling dissatisfied that he hasn't quit the Jesters?

Whew! Sorry so long, lol.

It sounds like a really good compromise to me. Best of all is all the shared time, and the inclusion of you as part of the lodge activity.

This forum is a great place for advice, but it is just that...advice. You need to feel what is right for you in your gut.

As for exposing, I think the general consensus is if the A is over and NC is in place, you do not need to expose anymore.

It would be good in my mind to attend more meetings with H so that people there know you and see him as a married man...not that it stops some people. It may also lay some fears to rest for you.

I have had to really LOOK at my H and his actions. There have been things that we have faced in early recovery that some people would have just said were unacceptable...but in the real world, sometimes things don't fit into the perfect recovery mold and sometimes it IS too difficult to get rid of everything that might be a potential doorway to another possible infidelity.

If your H is acting like a FORMER WS, then try to trust that a little. Not completely (he doesn't really deserve your complete trust), but some. If he starts acting wayward again...then you need to look at whether or not stricter EPs should be in place. For now, it seems like he is doing well.

HTM

Thanks to both of you, I feel quite a bit better. Time will tell whether I can begin to trust him again.

How is it going today? What things have you done for your recovery and what things have you seen as evidence of your H working on recovery? It's important to notice these things. They will help you to stay motivated.

Hope your day is going well. I spent two hours at Walmart helping three little boys decide how to spend their allowance money...

HTM

LOL well THAT sounds like fun!

Today is a pretty good day. I'm feeling pretty good.

Things we've done: we started marriage counseling yesterday, and it went well. DH likes her and was open and receptive. We've done a lot of good, open talking, which is a new thing for us. The first time we were in marriage counseling DH didn't like the therapist, and obviously wasn't being forthright either, since he was involved with OW at the time.

He's been open with his activities (which he never used to be), he's been receptive to my questions (normally he'd be defensive) and has been patient. He has no problem with me randomly checking his phone and email, whereas before he'd get really upset about me "invading his privacy." Anytime I bring up anything relating to the affair he's been attentive and openly discusses whatever I need, even when it clearly makes him uncomfortable. Everything he's said so far has checked out. I've been monitoring his computer activitiy via the keylogger, and nothing I would object to has happened. No texts or calls from OW, and none to her either (via cell provider's site).

I've been doing lots and lots of reading on here, I'm going to order a couple of Dr. Harley's books today. I've been MUCH more forthright with my thoughts and feelings, which is a HUGE relief. It's part of the reason we got into such a big mess to start with - I was squashing everything down. We implemented the POJA and being totally transparent. I've also really been thinking about what you said about his compromise being fair. I still feel conflicted, I think you're right...but I also had it in my head that if he was really wanting to work things out (and I know he does), he would come to me and say "ok, I'm willing to give it all up to work on us." The only thing I would have asked is he give up the Jesters. I'm trying to accept his proposal (and I do recognize even that makes huge changes for the better) and let go of what I had in mind. It's very possible that when I see things for myself more often, it'll all seem much less threatening. I'm open to that possibility right now, and hopefully the rest of the mindset will follow as trust is built up.

Thanks for checking on me!

This is SO true! For everyone.

How's your weekend going? Have you made sure to find time for fun with H? I hope so. The weekends seem to be a toss up for me...we either have a great time or we get into a BIG discussion and it goes downhill. I am trying to avoid those BIG discussions. Major LB!

Thinking of you.

HTM

Man you sound like us.

Our weekend was good - busy. He works Sun - Thu, I work Mon - Fri, so we only have Saturday off in common. We had a birthday party on Sunday afternoon for our youngest, who will be two on Tuesday. Saturday most of it was prepping for the party - shopping, etc. We've been carving out intimate time for us on a regular basis...usually when the kiddos are napping or something. We're in dire financial straits so we haven't had much of a chance to have a date night - but that should be changing soon. We've had lots of really good conversations...he's still trying really hard and appears to be up front with any questions I have, and is still being very patient. The number of questions I've had has dropped off, but I still have a few here & there.

Thanks for checking on me!

We've been broke most of our M and I have a couple of suggestions for date night. I read this book called Couples and the Art of Playing by Keith Hackett...he talks about how to play with your spouse and sets up some easy guidelines so that the date itself doesn't become a problem.

Here's the basics...

1. Date night is once a week for 2-4 hours (no longer cos then you might fight).

2. It cannot be a meal or a movie...not interactive enough.

3. You take turns planning and the one who isn't planning that week cannot complain if the planner drops the ball...they just make sure to plan their week.

4. If you are the planner, you have to plan something that you think your spouse will like, but not something that you know they will LOVE. You can't plan something you know that they will hate.

5. IF you are the plannee, you have to pretend to enjoy yourself even if it's not your idea of fun. You are there to enjoy the company, just like when you were dating.

6. You cannot ask each other how you liked the date (that comes at the end).

7. After two months of this, you make a list of the dates you had. You can each cross off any date that you didn't enjoy. No comments and no discussion.

8. Now you have a list of dates that you both enjoyed to start from for the next set.

Some dates that my H and I did (we did ours at home after bedtime for the boys so that we didn't have to pay for a sitter)...
* Play Legos
* Make an iMovie with family pictures and music
* Play a board game
* Play with playdough
* Give each other manicure/pedicures (yes, my H loved his)
* Make a scrapbook page (I did this with pics from the Navy for my H to buy in)
* Paint a room in the house
* Have a mud fight outside...really messy but totally hilarious!
* Build together with blocks

We've really had a good time with this. It's interesting how sitting on the floor with Legos can be so freeing...you just start getting into it and talking about all of your childhood memories. I think that one was my favorite free date.

HTM

Great ideas....building with Legos....I can totally see us doing that, lol.

We have board games too, I didn't even think of that. Duh!

Our entire marriage has been one difficulty after another. We had no idea how much that had built up until we got to talking about it. We do love each other for sure and both want it to work. Our younger son has GERD so even though he's 2 now, I've just barely begun to start to catch up on sleep. Financial difficulties, the mistakes we were making with each other....he's been commenting what an eye-opener this has been, and he really wishes we could have learned the lesson without the pain. We've had a lot stacked against us, but we're working at it. In an odd way things are much nicer than they've ever been. It feels odd to me that it's that way, but I'm enjoying it too.

There is a popular myth in our culture that if you don't 'trust' your spouse to be involved in certain activities, then you have a 'jealousy problem'. (BTW this belief in this myth is directly proportional to the rising divorce rate.)

It is also typical for a WS to want the BS to trust them again, quickly and easily (sometimes instantly).

What most WS's don't understand, and even some BS's don't get, is that there are certain activities that married people should give up in order to protect their marrige, not just marriages that have been harmed by adultery, ALL marriages.

The whole premise that a spouse should be allowed to do certain things, and that they only have ot give those thigns up temporarily if there's been a recent adultery, is wrong.

More and more marriage experts are stating that things like:

* going on business trips without your spouse
* going out to lunch with opposite sex co-workers
* listening to somebody of the opposite sex complain about their
spouse or relationship partner
* being involved in recreational activities that exclude your
spouse
* text-messaging and e-mailing somebody of the opposite sex

etc. destroy marriages.

Recovery after adultery does NOT mean the BS gets pressured into forgiving, forgetting, trusting again SO THAT the WS can resume the same activities that led to the adultery!

The BS wanting and needing the proper boundaries in place has nothign whatsoever to do with the BS supposedly being too suspicious or not trusting enough.

t/j
HTM,
Great Post--should be over on the recovery forum too if it isn't already.

I haven't put it over there...guess I don't think I belong there yet .

HTM

Something that my H and I did to prepare for a weekend with the guy that wrote that book was to make a timeline of our lives together. It was INCREDIBLE the amount of challenges that we had overcome. It really gave us a perspective on how strong a couple we really are. It might be a fun activity for you two to do. Kind of a "Look how far we've come together" thing.

I'm glad that you are starting to feel that connection again. And I can totally relate to the feeling of "enjoying" it but not really knowing how to say that without sounding sick. I definitely didn't enjoy HOW we came to where we are, but I do enjoy a lot of the things we are learning from what has happened.

I guess the old addage, "Whatever doesn't break us, makes us stronger" may apply here.


On the subject of what M should be like...
I completely agree with the comment about how people do not recognize the need for a life change when they marry. I think the myth you talk about has created a lot of the challenges that married people face nowadays. They look at these changes as restrictions or old-fashioned...when in reality, they are necessary precautions.

People talk about how divorce and adultery rates are on the rise because people view marriage as disposable. I think some of the problem comes from the fact that people don't see marriage as a life choice. It is a complete CHANGE of lifestyle.

Yes, I think that we can still be ourselves and have independent interests...but we must make HUGE efforts to connect with our spouse and stay disconnected from anyone of the opposite sex outside of our M. If you look at the "old-fashioned" lifestyle, you can see that those things were naturally a part of life. It wasn't acceptable for single women to socialize with married men or vise versa. Family was number one. When you had recreational time, it was spent in the company of people of the same sex, or with your spouse. Society expected you would follow these "rules" and it was VERY disapproving if you didn't.

I have to say, society makes it altogether too acceptable to be promiscuous, adulterous, and to divorce. Wow...and all that comes from a woman who went to a woman's college and considers herself to be a strong feminist.
HTM

I would agree with you, HTM.

I know that in our case, even though DH is keeping his old activities, the way in which he's doing them has changed drastically, and he's including me, which he really didn't do before (except on rare occasions).

Funny thing - I was seeing a therapist independently for a short period of time about a year before d-day. I remember very clearly the therapist saying to me - "well, you can be sure your husband won't cheat on you. Masons have extremely high moral standards - I know because my father was one as well."

Niiiccceee! Isn't it amazing how your perspective can change? I always used to think that if H were friends with another woman, all I needed to do was make sure she was aware of me and the boys, make friends with her, and all would be well. I'm still kicking myself for all the stuff I tried to do to be nice to OW so that she wouldn't be capable of an A with my H.

Hindsight really IS 20/20, isn't it??

I used to walk around with a sort of arrogance, thinking - well, our marriage may fail, but I'm confident the one thing my husband would never do is cheat. That's against the code of conduct for a freemason - and I know how seriously J takes that. What a moron. I thought I had an insurance policy.

I've since learned that anybody is capable of cheating - including myself.

I think if nothing else, MB teaches us that we are ALL fallible. I think it is one of the most important things you can learn...that EVERYONE is capable of cheating, no matter what their moral fiber consists of. If everyone were willing to accept this fact and take precautions against it, I think there would be a lot less adultery in the world.

I spoke with my brother when this all came about. He was so angry with my H that he refused to speak with him. He said "Nobody wants an adulterer in their family" and forbade me to tell anyone in his wife's family. My brother doesn't believe that he or his wife are capable of an affair. They have only been married for a year. I hope that he realizes that it isn't a weakness to admit that you are capable...in fact, I see it as a strength.

HTM

PS. My H went through the Mason's as a boy. I'm not sure what they call him, but he is a Mason who hasn't joined as an adult.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you. That's the biggest lesson I've learned through all of this - that NOBODY is immune. I also agree that if everybody realized that, there would be much less adultery (and therefore much less pain).

The group you described is called DeMolay - that's how my husband started out as a teenager too, and then just continued on to adult freemasonry.

I posted this over on the recovery board, and thought I'd post it here, too:

It's been a month since I discovered DH's EA. He immediately cut off all contact with her, and (long story short) we've decided to try to make things work. I've been doing a lot of reading on here, ordered a few Dr. Harley books, and we're in couples' counseling too.

I have a long history of severe depression, but had been in remission for six years or so. We're in financial disaster mode right now (re: bankruptcy/foreclosure), and I was handling it ok, but finding out about the affair was the straw that broke the camel's back and I'm symptomatic again. I called my PCP this morning and made an appointment to get started on antidepressant medication again, but his first available appointment is August 13th. That's sooner than if I were to try to get into the mental health center. Fortunately I respond to medications very quickly so I should start to feel better within a few days of starting it.

So my question (finally) is this - when I'm depressed one of the first symptoms I have is loss of interest in sex. I know this, but it's still a real struggle for me. It probably comes as no great surprise that FWH rated that as his number one emotional need when we did the EN questionnaires. He knows I'm struggling and understands. He offered to kind of put that on the back burner until I'm feeling better, but I don't feel that's necessarily the right thing to do - plus I'm afraid that'll cause us to get back into our old habits of me not meeting that need for him. So how do we deal with this? He doesn't want me to just have sex if I'm not going to enjoy it and connect with him, but I don't want him to feel neglected either.

Find other ways to take care of him.

Could you find a middle ground? I think sometimes that the way you LOOK at sex can help. You want your H to feel loved and to meet his ENs. Having sex with him is one way to do that. Maybe you can approach it as something that you are doing FOR him...a loving act because you want him to be happy.

With that said, if you are not ready, he kind of has to respect that. You have a lot of emotional stuff to work through. The first few times that my H and I were intimate after the A it was painful and awkward. It was a struggle for me to recapture what was mine.

Talk to him. Share with him what you want to be able to do but also how you are feeling. Let him be gentle and show you that tenderness that you deserve right now. It will eventually work itself out.

HTM

Well, we have been intimate since d-day, and that's not a problem. I think what ended up happening was I had given him the impression that we were going to be intimate that day (and it really was my fault), but then an emotion I wasn't dealing with ended up getting in my way. I figured all this out yesterday after I posted my question.

Lately I've been feeling pretty angry with him that I've been driven to the point of needing antidepressants again. It's been about 6 years or so since I've been on them, and I was very proud of that accomplishment. I was of the mindset that I'd never be able to get off them, but I worked really hard at recovery for ten years and had gotten to a point where both my therapist and I felt I was ready to try going without them - and much to my surprise I did really well. I've had a lot of stress in my life (like anybody else) and was able to cope pretty well. Recent events with our finances had made it hard, but again, I felt like I was coping well. Discovering the EA was just too much. I hadn't told DH about being angry with him about feeling like I need them again, and once I did I felt significantly better.

I've been looking at SF for what it is - his most important EN, and fulfilling that for him isn't a problem for me, really. I've always enjoyed that aspect of our relationship and it's improved significantly since everything has come out in the open. It's just when I'm feeling bad it's hard to see past that and function. I feel much better than I did yesterday. We're getting better at communicating, but we're still rough around the edges of course. He was under the impression I hadn't decided to stay with him, and I thought I had made that clear, so my emotional roller coaster was frustrating him because he saw it as mixed signals. I explained that I do want to work things out and my hope is we'll come out the other side of this better and stronger, but that the roller coaster is normal and is going to be around for a while.

It sounds like you are communicating really well with your H. And I think it is completely reasonable for you to have "down" days where SF is not something you feel like doing. There will be times where a negative emotion is overwhelming and it's all you can do to hold yourself together, let alone meet anyone's needs. It'll get easier.

Just keep trying. The waves come slower and slower...

HTM

That's nice to know. I've noticed that somewhat already.

I have just read your thread and can really relate to what you are both saying. My husband and I married 1 1/2 years ago but have not yet lived together...he has a reading/writing disability that makes it tougher to get jobs and he lives in the city 3 1/2 hours from my country home. We'd talked before we were married and I was willing to transition there (I was out of work and would have gotten unemployment while looking for work there) but he didn't think I'd be happy in the big city and he wanted to locate to me instead. Well he got a job and moved to my home but he never got paid, so when he got a job offer back in his old city, he moved back there, coming home on weekends. It was hard but I was trying to be patient. It didn't seem as hard on him as it did me, and I thought well people are different, maybe he doesn't mind being alone as much as I do. He started sleeping a LOT and was diagnosed with depression, although they didn't put him on medication. It was shortly after that when I paid a surprise visit to him and discovered he had someone living with him!
Much of what you guys have voiced is what I have experienced, incredible hurt and anger and disbelief that the person you have given so much to could so disregard you as to do something like this. He has SF dysfunction (as we've since learned, arising from stress/anxiety) so he wasn't able to "perform" with OW but they were sexually intimate, and as they lived together for a couple of months (he moved her out whenever I'd come visit), they shared conversations, meals, friends, recreation, everything except the day-to-day tasks of M. I had even remortgaged my house to pay for his debts (he'd had a failed business that left him saddled with debts), and all the while he had her on the side?! Or should I say that I was the one "on the side"!
Since then NC has been established, and he gave up his place so she couldn't find him, and he wouldn't have a place to bring someone to, and he's staying with friends we are both acquainted with in another town that's close to his job. He's reestablished coming home to me on weekends and calling me every morning and every evening after work. We are spending more time together in doing recreational things. I'm working on LB and read SAA and am currently reading HNHN. He's had a lot of counseling in his life and refuses any more and since he's not able to read/write very well, I have been doing the reading and then talking it over with him. He has been emerging from the fog and changing back to the man I knew and married. You are right, it is very unfair that the BS does the preponderance of the work in the beginning, but it is how it seems to be. However, little by little, we begin to see the WS begin to take on more as time goes by. I live one day at a time, knowing I may not be able to predict or control any particular outcome, but working on me, learning to establish and require adherance to boundaries, and leave the future up to God. The things he has done is establish NC, give up all of "their" friends, give up his place, and is actively seeking work in my area, and keeping in contact with me more. I have access to our cell records but he isn't computer literate so a keylogger isn't necessary, plus he doesn't have one, just I do. I cut off texting on his phone because she was trying to text him, which is pretty funny since he doesn't read them anyway. He gave me his PW on his cellphone (for messages) too. He says he wants our M and I've seen a lot of changes towards that.
One of my problems is dealing with "triggers", images that come to my mind, and feeling anger over what he chose to do. He chose to move back up there when we got married, he chose to not have me move there when I was out of work, he chose to have an A, and I feel like it's me paying the price! THAT makes me angry!

You say you can't see the doctor until mid-Aug. There are a lot of ways to relieve anxiety and depression besides just medicine...I know because I have had to deal with depression in the past (although right now I'm doing okay) and I have accepted that I have chronic GAD and am on medicine for it. Walking or other exercise every day relieves stress and releases those "feel-good hormones". Spend some time on yourself doing things YOU enjoy, take a bubble bath, read a book (for fun, one that isn't a "self-help" or otherwise required reading), go to lunch with a friend, spend time in a hobby or other enjoyment.

I don't know about you, but my esteem took a huge hit when I discovered my H had a woman who was 9 years younger than me and a tiny size 5...I can't be that. He says it wasn't about that, but that is what he picked. You have lost weight, so have I, although only 16 lbs. so far, and I'm trying to continue even though the stress has mostly abated. I got my hair colored, had my nails done, bought some new clothes...for my own self-esteem.

I wish you the best in your recovery, I know it's hard and we all have a lot ahead of us, but with MB I have hope that our M can be saved...and a lot better than it was.

Broken,

How are you doing? I haven't seen a post from you in a few days. Hope all is going well.

HTM

Broken,
Thinking of you and hoping you are doing okay...haven't seen you on here for a while...

Hi! Sorry I haven't posted in a few days.

We had a bit of a setback over the weekend. I was feeling like some details of the EA were fuzzy and got pretty spooked - I thought he was lying about things, so I was questioning whether there would be "bombs" at a later point in time. It turned out to be a bit of a misunderstanding. Before d-day he wasn't one to really communicate much and habitually was very guarded. He would only tell me as much information as I asked him for. His family isn't very forthcoming or direct either - I wouldn't say they're outright dishonest, but just....guarded I guess. So he comes by it honestly. Sometimes the way he phrases stuff will lead to a misunderstanding between us - I think he means one thing and he means something else (which is different than him being misleading or outright lying).

However, he's been trying REALLY hard and I've been quite impressed with him. He feels exceedingly guilty (as he should) and that's hard of course. He openly told me because he feels so guilty that his tendency is to put it behind him as quickly as possible, because it's the past for him and he wants to focus on the future and on us. I explained to him that I understood where he was coming from, but that this ISN'T the past to me - this is very much in the present and even though it's hard for him, I need him to be absolutely forthright about everything. I've asked him about a billion questions (quite a few I've asked multiple times, too) and his responses appear to be honest. I've checked on everything I can, and everything matches up so far. We'll be in Plan A forever. He hasn't protested at all to giving me all passwords and account information, me checking his phone and email, etc. I realized over the weekend I had forgotten to ask him for account/password info on his personal checking account. I was a little nervous asking for the info - but he offered it up without protest, even gave me info on his 401k account. Through our keylogger I saw that he went to this site without my asking, and read an article called "How to meet emotional needs." This alone was a BIG step for him, because before he would NEVER do that without much prodding from me. I could really feel the love units being deposited with that discovery. He's apologized repeatedly, told me how stupid and how much of a moron he was over and over, and continues to express a lot of remorse. He's still being patient with my questions (those have reduced in number significantly).

I feel that as part of the 100% transparency agreement, he should also have access to my individual savings info, but that's what I used to purchase the keylogger software. I don't want him to know about the software because I feel it's all I have to REALLY make sure he's being honest, and the purchase is listed on there of course. How should I handle this?

I've also figured out that I'm grateful for this lesson - I'm even grateful for the pain that has come along with it because it'll help me remember my mistakes and keep me from making them again.

Thanks for checking on me and sorry so long!

Hello, I found out about my husband 3 months ago and i'm still so devastated. He told me that it will never happen again etc. I just want to keep a track on his email because I have access to his phone. Since my trust in him have dropped, I just want to know how truthful he is to me. Where did you purchase the keylogger? I appreciate it

There's a lot of them out there. You can google "keylogging software" and check them out. They come in a variety of prices and features.

Hi broken_soul,

My H so called mistress put a keylogger on his computer. Putting a tab on his conversation with me. I being in IT, found it. It was quite a bit of work but I was able to access it and do a lot of twicking therefore switching it to me. From that point she was not able to see what he was typing to anyone for that matter. But I was. The program was pcpandora, and not hard to figure out.