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Interesting that people ignore this tidbit of truth in the overall scheme of things..concerning his first marriage.. Carol fell into his fast-living world by accident. She escaped a poor upbringing in Philadelphia to become a successful model, married an Annapolis classmate of McCain’s and had two children – Douglas and Andrew – before renewing what one acquaintance calls ‘an old flirtation’ with McCain. She was married to his classmate before she married him..and he adopted HIS two children, so what happened to her first husband when she married him?? Had he died? Or did she abandon him to marry McCain? Actually, Carol filed for divorce from her first husband upon the grounds of adultery. She's a two-time betrayed spouse. Further...your scripture quote doesn't apply to McCain's situation since John didn't divorce Carol because he found something indecent about her. Carol wasn't defiled and if he ends his affair he could TRY to go back to Carol. At least THAT would be a better indication of repentence than simply expressing regret and CONTINUING to commit adultery. (this is also assuming Carol hasn't remarried which I don't believe she has) Your scripture doesn't apply in reverse gender situations. It says "man/husband" and "woman/wife", not spouse. Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Thank you Thorned Rose... Your quote helped me find an entire interesting article on the subject (maybe it was posted already...don't know). Even H. Ross Perot states pretty clearly what he thinks of John McCain, having been the man that paid for Carol's extensive surgeries while John was a POW. Anyway...here it is: The Left Behind Series Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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MrWondering Actually, Carol filed for divorce from her first husband upon the grounds of adultery.
She's a two-time betrayed spouse. Was she also seeing McCain at the time? Further...your scripture quote doesn't apply to McCain's situation since John didn't divorce Carol because he found something indecent about her. Carol wasn't defiled and if he ends his affair he could TRY to go back to Carol. At least THAT would be a better indication of repentence than simply expressing regret and CONTINUING to commit adultery. Maybe by your understanding of repentance it would, but not by mine. I don't know all the details about their marriage, why it ended and couldn't be saved..I only know a little bit about it, he committed adultery (certainly a biblical reason for divorce) could she not have sex? therefore he would have been confined to a sexless marriage? I have no idea..if so, did that make it right? Not necessarily, but I'd rather see him divorce for that reason than stay married and continue in adultery with many other women. Your scripture doesn't apply in reverse gender situations. It says "man/husband" and "woman/wife", not spouse. during the time it was written, women were not allowed to file for divorce. and a man/woman are the only biblical definition for spouse. there are no wife/wife or husband/husband martial situations.
Simul Justus Et Peccator
“Righteous and at the same time a sinner.”
(Martin Luther)
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TR,
That fathers are NOT important in the lives of their children and that they have no say and should not be held responsible.
And that priest failed to do his job in holding these boys accountable for their sin, and that he failed not only the girls but the boys, and their children and the rest of the flock under his charge.
[/quote]
*****************************************
Exactly.
which is why I first responded to you when you posted,
Quote by ThornedRose:
Maybe more fathers need to start standing up for their unborn children, even fighting for custody and child support from the woman!! And let it be known that IF the woman has a child at a later date..then the father has no responsibility towards said child, as she could have very well aborted that child as well and the father had no say..and had no respect for the egg in which was developed in the creating of the first child..it should be considered child abuse where none of these women should be allowed to have children again..
Maybe they should start sterilizing these women when they go in to get an abortion..so they can not abuse (murder any more children).
Last edited by nia17; 08/22/08 02:03 PM.
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This is the secular/humanist way of thinking, that the girl is the only one responsible for her actions.
This attitude became more prevalent with the birth control pill and legalizing abortion as well as the woman's suffrage movement,
not that it wasn't there before then, it just became more widespread.
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I am sure there is truth to that , but I don't see it that way.......the catholic church has always been very anti-abortion (ALL type os abortion, for any reason) and does not believe in pre-marital sex or birth control but that way of thinking was still very prevalent.
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Ahhhhhhhhh Thorned Rose, now I understand...Based on your posts trying to blame the victim (Carol McCain) I told Mr. W that I would bet the house that you were a not completely recovered FWW...I went back and read your first post and BINGO, my suspicions were confirmed...And even back then you were twisting Christianity to fit what you wanted...Saying that God hadn't really wanted you to marry your husband...C'MON!!! I'm sure you've changed some since then, or at least I would hope, but I must tell you that I do wonder when I read your eagerness to demonize a BS...WOW... Further, your twisting of facts would actually not even help your case, as it would make John McCain even worse...It would make him the OM in Carol's first marriage, in addition to his being an active adulterer today...  Mrs. W<~~~Not voting for McCain or Obama
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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there are no wife/wife or husband/husband martial situations. Based on 60 years of observing life, I'd betcha there were still some martial situations of some kind, somewhere in that era, though, people being what they are... 
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I don't know all the details about their marriage, why it ended and couldn't be saved..I only know a little bit about it, he committed adultery (certainly a biblical reason for divorce) could she not have sex? therefore he would have been confined to a sexless marriage? I have no idea..if so, did that make it right? Not necessarily, but I'd rather see him divorce for that reason than stay married and continue in adultery with many other women. This "logic" can be (and has been) used by every single WS to justify their affairs. I personally do not give a rat's butt as to why someone decided to cheat; they are still a cheater. AGG
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I'm always amazed that some people think that the very instant an egg is fertilized, it's a full-blown human being. Krazy71 - Doesn't surprise me in the least that you would be "amazed." But here's the biological reality...upon fertilization, it IS a "full-blown human being" with a complete set of DNA that is what MAKES it a human being. It's not a frog, a horse, a fly, a mouse, or any other sort of "being." You, me, every person who ever lived STARTED life with their own complete set of DNA. And they end life with the same set of DNA. From "start to finish" ALL of the genetic coding that makes a "human being" a human being. But in the interest of "being fair," WHEN DO YOU SAY say that a growing human being actually becomes, in your opinion, a human being? And why not at any point BEFORE that point in time? You are free to pick anytime you want to pick from conception to death (whenever that might be in the lifetime of that individual). And in the interest of thread conformity, which is the "greater" evil, the taking of another's life or the committing of adultery. I will stipulate that BOTH are "bad," but the question is the relative issue of which is "worse than the other" in the category of "wrongful acts" BY someone against someone else? I think you may have to rethink the DNA thing. My son's complete DNA is living and growing in a test tube somewhere and he has been in the ground for several years now. Since the genome project was completed and chromosomal markers for certain childhood disease have been found that are similar to adult onset iron storage diseases like Lewey body, Alzheimer's, Parkinsons and ALS, the stems cells and DNA of many have been collected to help researchers understand and find treatments for the genetic aberrations involving glutamate and the blood-brain barrier. By your definition my son is still a full blown human being.
Me: 56
H: 61
DD: 13 and hormonal
DS: 20
Oldest son died 1994 @ age 8
Happily married 30+ years
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AGoodGuy; This "logic" can be (and has been) used by every single WS to justify their affairs. I personally do not give a rat's butt as to why someone decided to cheat; they are still a cheater. Who is trying to justify his affair? I'm not..I agree he *was* a cheater, however, he did divorce his wife and remarry, thus he is no longer "Cheating" on his first wife. He is no longer committing adultery. Once a liar always a liar, once a adulterer always an adulterer, once a drunkard always a drunkard, once a thief always a thief, once a murderer always a murderer, once sexually immoral always sexually immoral, once a glutton always a glutton, therefore any and every sin anyone of has ever committed should be what they are known by? once a adulterer always an adulterer--IF this is true, why bother working on a marriage where adultery has taken place??? It would seem by that logic they could NEVER change..
Simul Justus Et Peccator
“Righteous and at the same time a sinner.”
(Martin Luther)
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nia17, I am sure there is truth to that , but I don't see it that way.......the catholic church has always been very anti-abortion (ALL type os abortion, for any reason) and does not believe in pre-marital sex or birth control but that way of thinking was still very prevalent. And I don't see where most people in the RCC have a secular/humanist mindset, but that was apparently the mindset of at least the one priest. The question to that priest should have been, why didn't HE stand for the principles HE claimed to believe in??? Why wasn't HE calling these boys and girls to account??
Simul Justus Et Peccator
“Righteous and at the same time a sinner.”
(Martin Luther)
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once a adulterer always an adulterer--IF this is true, why bother working on a marriage where adultery has taken place??? It would seem by that logic they could NEVER change..
***********************************************
sorta like your idea to steralize any woman who has had an abortion so she can never murder again.
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And I don't see where most people in the RCC have a secular/humanist mindset, but that was apparently the mindset of at least the one priest.
The question to that priest should have been, why didn't HE stand for the principles HE claimed to believe in??? Why wasn't HE calling these boys and girls to account??
*****************************************
Why are you asking me?
It wasn't just the mindset of this 1 priest or......it ISN'T just in the catholic church........there are hypocrites in the world .....THAT particular priest also had some great qualities.....he was a dynamic speaker and was very well respected in the community.
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MrsWondering Ahhhhhhhhh Thorned Rose, now I understand...Based on your posts trying to blame the victim (Carol McCain) I told Mr. W that I would bet the house that you were a not completely recovered FWW...I went back and read your first post and BINGO, my suspicions were confirmed...And even back then you were twisting Christianity to fit what you wanted...Saying that God hadn't really wanted you to marry your husband...C'MON!!! I'm sure you've changed some since then, or at least I would hope, but I must tell you that I do wonder when I read your eagerness to demonize a BS...WOW... Whose demonizing anyone? I'm certainly not blaming her for his choices to have an affair, they were his. And no, My opinion on God not wanting me to marry my now ex-h hasn't changed, as Scripture tells me: 2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? and 1Cr 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such [cases]: but God hath called us to peace. So no, not twisting Scripture, and when he filed for divorce because other people and things were more important to him, I didn't fight it..I let him go live the life he wanted to live as a single man. Further, your twisting of facts would actually not even help your case, as it would make John McCain even worse...It would make him the OM in Carol's first marriage, in addition to his being an active adulterer today... Whose twisting facts? I didn't say it was a fact he was seeing her before then, I merely asked..
Simul Justus Et Peccator
“Righteous and at the same time a sinner.”
(Martin Luther)
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Who is trying to justify his affair? I'm not.. You were not justifying it, but it sure sounded like rationalizing: I don't know all the details about their marriage, why it ended and couldn't be saved... ....could she not have sex? ...he would have been confined to a sexless marriage? I have no idea.. Every affair has "rationalizations" behind it, but to me, they do not change one single thing. Don't want to be married? Spouse can't/won't have sex? Marriage could not be saved? No problem - get a %@&^%@*&%ing divorce first, then go find someone else. Trying to explain why an affair might have happened is rationalizing it, and I don't buy it. AGG
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nia17 sorta like your idea to steralize any woman who has had an abortion so she can never murder again. Actually, that's more sarcasm than belief....
Simul Justus Et Peccator
“Righteous and at the same time a sinner.”
(Martin Luther)
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nia17; Why are you asking me?
It wasn't just the mindset of this 1 priest or......it ISN'T just in the catholic church........there are hypocrites in the world .....THAT particular priest also had some great qualities.....he was a dynamic speaker and was very well respected in the community. I wasn't meaning to 'ask' you personally, just asking in general.. And I realize it wasn't just the Priest, but he was supposed to be the Spiritual leader of that flock..and in that area it appears he failed. There are MANY pastors who fail in this area, so I know it's not just the RCC..and they too will answer for those things.. And I agree, there are lots of hypocrites in the world..
Simul Justus Et Peccator
“Righteous and at the same time a sinner.”
(Martin Luther)
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AGoodGuy You were not justifying it, but it sure sounded like rationalizing: I can certainly see how HE could have rationalized it in his mind, as given in what I said, but that doesn't mean *I* personally agreed with those thoughts.. Every affair has "rationalizations" behind it, but to me, they do not change one single thing. Don't want to be married? Spouse can't/won't have sex? Marriage could not be saved? No problem - get a %@&^%@*&%ing divorce first, then go find someone else.
Trying to explain why an affair might have happened is rationalizing it, and I don't buy it. Exactly my point, I believe he was trying to rationalize his choice instead of just divorcing her to begin with.. Which is why I also said, I would rather see him divorce her as he finally decided to do, *as opposed* to remaining married to her and continue committing adultery against her.. It would have certainly been better had he decided to end the affair and work on his marriage..but he didn't..he made the choice to divorce, and I won't hold that against him.
Simul Justus Et Peccator
“Righteous and at the same time a sinner.”
(Martin Luther)
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nia17 sorta like your idea to steralize any woman who has had an abortion so she can never murder again. Actually, that's more sarcasm than belief.... *********************************** I thought so...or maybe I should say hoped so... because I know a few young woman who made poor choices but grew up to become wonderful, loving mothers. I do believe that people can change. from your other post... I wasn't meaning to 'ask' you personally, just asking in general.. And I realize it wasn't just the Priest, but he was supposed to be the Spiritual leader of that flock..and in that area it appears he failed. There are MANY pastors who fail in this area, so I know it's not just the RCC..and they too will answer for those things.. ************************************ I thought maybe you were asking me because you thought I was justifying the behavior......I am not. I think the RCC ( again, not all catholics and not all priests or nuns) made some very wrong and hypocritical decisions when it came to respecting life.
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I asked you if he is pro-abortion and you never answered! Oh, sorry, I missed that post. You know what Mel, I'm not taking that bait. I believe we're all pretty clear on where he stands on the issue of abortion. You define choice, or abortion or whatever, however you like. Next you'll want to debate what the meaning of "is" is. No righty is going to change the mind of a lefty or vice versa. It's just mental masturbation if you ask me. This whole thing is just too sophomoric. I have a marriage to try (too hard?) to save. TTH Veteran Patriot
Last edited by TryTooHard; 08/22/08 05:24 PM. Reason: Quietly closes door behind him on the way out...
BH(me): 40ish
FWW:(ILMH) 28yo
DS 3yo
Married 7yrs
Together 10 yrs
??? Spring '07 - Adultery Begins
8/25/07 - 1st D-day (week of our anniv.)
8/07 thru 5/08 - About a dozen D-days/Gaslighting/Flaunting/Fake Recoveries
She finally quit on...
1/1/08 - First real NC attempt(Maybe?)
3/1/08 - Told me OM is an A**hole.(Hope?)
5/3/08 - D-day (Admitted to PA once)
5/4/08 - Latest D-day(Finally confessed to multiple EA/PA in our home)
5/8/08 - Present
Struggling to hold on
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