SD, I can so relate to that exchange you documented. It's unreal how similar my interaction with exWW are to yours. Must be part of the script.

At this point, it sounds like SCQ is taking her licks and dealing with it. Who knows why.

This line caught my eye...


It kinda says it all, IMO. Communication IS necessary, even though it hurts you. If you are not going to do a dark Plan B, there is some acceptance you must have that emails and some TM's will be necessary.

YOU said a lot in those emails. My suggestion now is to drop it. I still hear the fight in you, and I see the white flag from her. You will go down with this ship, she will not. Her epiphany seems to be a long way off, and you may never know that she has it.

If there is anything of importance that ONLY comes to you from school, either photocopy or read over it and then send it to SCQ. Why not set up a shared calendar online that the two of you can enter ALL appointments and events on, so that there will be even fewer emails. I dunno, just some suggestions.

I do believe you will feel better once the divorce takes place. The finality of it will allow you to accept certain things. I KNOW that it's not what you want, and so does the SCQ, for that matter. It may be what you NEED, since the SCQ is NOT coming around.

Wow.. I think I like your IC man..

There's a lot in your post that I can totally relate to, such as folks wanting you to get over this and move on 6 months ago. I'll be happy to say though that I think you're handling this right by holding off on the whole moving on thing until the D is final. Do I think it will help SCQ come home? No.. not now at least, and not for the forseeable future. But if/when it does end between her and POSOM.. it may make all the difference in being able to open up that line of communication. If nothing else, somewhere she's got to realize at that point that you at least held up your end of the promise until SHE forced the issue to come to a close.

I think maybe the most difficult part of the 'letting go' and getting to 'done' process for guys like us, is that we were both raised with those old school midwestern values where a handshake and a promise is something a man can stand on, and that he is often percieved by the people that matter in his life by how well he stands on that word. Folks like you and I.. when we manage to grab the high ground, we like to keep it.. and part of why you've been somewhat kicking yourself for the exchanges is that you've found yourself throwing some of that valuable dirt in her direction..

We both know that SCQ.. like my WW knows how to press your buttons.. and she's going to do it with a very long stick because she doesn't -want- to get close to you.. doesn't want to be in the blast radius of the pain she is at least starting to acknowledge that she caused.. It's uncomfortable for her, and she doesn't want to deal with it.. much easier to push the true consequences off to draw interest until she can cash it in later.. going back I suppose to hoping there is an attack of conscience there at some point.

Truthfully though SD.. our sitches are similar in that we both realize that there's nothing that WE can do at this point to end the A.. and we are powerless to do anything about R until the A ends. It's something we have no control over, but yet it consumes at least part of our thinking power every day... do we WANT to suffer? No.. but we continue to.. needlessly perhaps.. because we stand for something that is DIFFERENT.. we ARE different than a majority of the society around you and I that says ultimately that what SCQ and WW are doing is OK.. is NORMAL.. well.. if that's NORMAL.. then I'm happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with you and be DIFFERENT.. and want for my kids to be DIFFERENT too.

No real advice here.. just observation.. maybe it'll make the situation a little easier to 'put behind' you and go on.. I know that getting different viewpoints on my sitch typically makes it easier at least to grasp.. and it's tough to put something on the shelf when you aren't quite able to pick it up yet.

Man.. I need to quit with the metaphors today..

pig snot anyone?

SDG,

I can relate a ton to you.

SCQ will keep pushing your buttons for a long time to come. They know what buttons to push.

I too get the emails with "suggestions" that are more like, "you should do x, y, z."

Like you I also feel this is a stupid way to live, but that's the reality.

All that being said, her requests are reasonable. You can prevent a lot of bad exchanges with her by giving her reports regarding the kids.

My exww has done similarly recently where she sends me a report of the kid's appointments and how things went for them. Granted, I would have appreciated a reminder that the appointment was coming, but she did report the results of the visits.

It's a process, and you're learning to communicate with a woman that was once your best friend, confidant, and lover. The former familiarity has to be shed to establish new busniness like interactions with the SCQ.

Your kids may have never heard you say anything about POSOM but they can read body language.

They can pick up on unspoken things as well and they fully understand that hearing about POSOM hurts dad. So they protect you, regardless of how open you tell them to be about things.

They will be more and more protective of you as they get older.

POSOM has a rude awekening coming to him when these kids reach their teen years.

There is a very great book that is called The Co-Parenting Survival Guide which has great ideas on how to interact with SCQ.

It suggests a weekly phone call (or email) where all business relating to the kids is addressed for the upcoming week. It says that now that you are divorced you actually have to communicate MORE with your ex, especially when it relates to the kids, because you are only seeing part of the puzzle and so is she.

Yes, SHE chose this way to live and SHE chose to do this to the family. But you do have to rise above it.

What state do you live in? You should consider a AOA suit against this man.

There's another type of lawsuit that can be brought against him for having sex with your wife. I'd consider that too.

But in the end we, the betrayed, have to find a way to get peace on our own. The apology or epiphany we desire will not come, more often than not, so we have to find a way to accept this horrible injustice and let it go.

The marriage is over. It happened. It didn't have to be this way, but it is.

The finality of the divorce may bring you some peace.

Karma is real and it will one day bite SCQ and all the waywards in one way or another. They bring it on themselves. Imagine the shock when she learns that POSOM is cheating on her with another woman some day.

That is the greatest dose of her own medicine she's likely to get someday. "If he does it with you, then he'll do it to you."

Try to find a way to approach her emails as if they were coming from someone you didn't know and had a business arrangement with.

Ignore the accusations.

Focus on what is truly important.

I still slip up and get into email exchanges with my ex, but things have gotten better and I still have to improve how I communicate. So does she. It's a process.

This really stinks, bud. I don't know if you've hit the anger phaze of grief, but believe me when I tell you that it is ugly. All the LBs you've been holding back will be like a flood unleashed if you're not careful and you'll want to say some very mean things to SCQ and POSOM. You'll have your moments about him as well.

That phaze will pass as well, but make sure you see your IC a little extra during that time.

Acceptance is a great stage to get to. You suddenly stop wanting to mention SCQ at all in your conversations and get tired of talking about anything dealing with her in any way.

You'll get there. It takes time and you're still fresh.

My thoughts are with you.

I hover between anger and acceptance; more acceptance these days. This is prolly why I don't post about me much anymore. I read others' threads, but don't even post much in terms of help.

I'm tired of talking about the Zombie. He's not even a part of MY life anymore. The tie has really been severed. Emails pass about DS, and the house--strictly business. I try to treat this situation as a business deal that we are brokering. If I let my emotions rule, I'll wind up getting trounced. I really have to think of what's best for me and DS, even if my pride gets hurt in the process, even if I don't get what I want--I have to push for what I NEED to survive this, and to have some financial backbone.

Anyway, divorce is a slow march--I've got miles to go...

Man, oh man, sdguy. "Saintly" SCQ irks me.

She is still desperately trying to co-parent. Because then everything is okay. Kids are fine, sdguy is fine, SCQ/posom are fine.

All's fine. See, she knew once she took care of herself and only herself that everyone else would fall into line. Because she is the QUEEN.

If you were dead, she'd be getting the information from school and if she didn't get a password or needed information - SHE CAN CALL the school. BOTH parents can have things sent to them from the school. This isn't the first divorce/separation they have ever had to deal with.

And she did THREATEN you. The first time she offered to drop your DD off at your house so you could take her. You ticked her off so that is the first thing she yanked back.

She's punishing you for not falling into line.

You don't answer to her. You don't have to explain your reasons for doing things to her. Every time you do, you are giving her the power.

Do what you feel is right for you and your kids. The queen can take a long walk off a short pier.

(This guy shouldn't be so grinny. He should have a more caring look on his face)

Fox

Hey SD. Not much I can say.

I hope this is all over very soon. There is relief. You are almost there.

I will toast you from the Minnesota State Fair with a Pronto Pup and a beer.

Amigos------>>> :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour:
----------------------> SCQ :crosseyedcrazy:




Ok, all better now.


Fox

Hi SD,

I seem to identify a lot with what you are going through...uhmmm stage, whatever... even though I am not a 'guy'...and so I wanted to let those posters replying to you know....that I also greatly appreciate their insights...

...SD, there doesn't seem to be any way of getting 'around' the pain... and someone once told me that it was proportional to how much we were invested in the R and our family ... the more...the more painful! :RollieEyes: ....as if knowing that would be some kind of consolation!

...and thanks for the 'relaxation room' site you suggested...I checked it out, in fact, I think I will go back to it now!

Hang in there....buddy..errrr....fellow BS!

...putting my trust into those poster who have gone the D route....and say that it gets better.... somewhat similar to when I was deciding to whether or not go into Plan B.... and they were NOT wrong about that! :crosseyedcrazy:

I guess being on the other side of divorce that I can see that truly, yes, it would make things easier if you guys could coparent. Trouble is, it's hard to ask the hurting parent to put their hurt aside and that's understandable.

Remember what I said about reframing her from your wife to the mother of your kids???

Even though I'm the FWW I still am on the receiving end of things my kids say about their dad "Daddy is lazy- he doesn't do anything ________ (stepmom) has to do everything" and "Daddy doesn't love me like you do mom". Of course because of their sake I defend him to them. For their sake.

Even though in the past I was selfish and had the A and hurt my children in that way going forward I've tried to be as honest and ethical as I can be in my dealings with custody issues, etc. It just makes it easier on the kids. It truly does.

Unless it's a spur of the moment thing I would never make an appointment for the kids without discussing it with him first- because I know I wouldn't like it if he did it that way. If there is something in their folders the week they are with me and he needs to see it I stick it back in the folder with his name at the top or I scan it and fax it to him. Things like that.

I guess I'm rambling but I hope I've added something of value to the discussion.

This is what I was getting at.

Maybe it's the age differences of our children. I don't do this.

WxH is a big boy and can make sure he gets important information. DDs can also assess whether or not it is something that their dad needs to know.

I make ALL doctor, dentist, orthodontic appointments, parent/teacher meetings - with no input or thought to whether it works for WxH or not.

In addition to ages, it could be our different custody arrangements.

WxH has visitation, not custody.

He chose it, he can live it.

For some reason, I think we've had this discussion before.......



Fox

Oh, must be some of those differences. The Z has visitation, but he also has shared legal custody--input into care, schooling, etc must be relayed. It's NOT co parenting, it's sharing of info.

IMO, you can't co parent with an active wayward. They are not receptive to POJA, which co parenting is sort of built upon. It involves finding a parenting plan. I cannot envision me sitting down with the Z to make up a plan on how to raise our son; not right now. I CAN see not badmouthing his dad and being civil. That's about it.


Also, DS is only in first grade. He's not to be relied upon to deliver important information regarding school, or his care. *I* AM legally responsible for clueing the Z in on things, just as he is with me.

As DS gets older, I'm sure this will be more a matter of a function of their formed relationship. If the Z is highly involved in DS's life, he will be informed by his own efforts toward that.

I appreciate the perspective of coachswife on this one.

I see the difference in our thought process is that you wrote "must be relayed."

I read my divorce decree as saying "both parties have access."

WxH having access is different than me being required to get it to him.

He needs to SEEK the information. I'm not going to fall all over myself making sure he knows.

This may be "wrong" in some people's view, but the day WxH walked out is the day he became a visitor in DDs lives. He is no longer a parent in the true sense. They have his DNA and they have a right to see him and he see them, but he is not an everyday parent.

I may think differently if he ever made the effort to make appointments for DDs or be interested in their care or ask for details after they have appointments.

He has not.

Visitor.

Is it a double standard? Yep, and I'm okay with that.


Fox (ducking for cover)

ETA:
I appreciate yours, even when it differs, SL.

Ah, well, I do disagree to an extent. Yes, the Z gave up the right to know what goes on in DS's daily life when he made the decision to leave. I don't talk to him at all.

When it comes to dental stuff, doctor visits, and the like, I don't usually relay that, since I am responsible for ALL of DS's medical expenses. Now, if I sign DS up for some sport, where practices could possibly fall on his visitation (and WILL), I send an email, saying what the sitch is. That's really about it.

For instance, I signed DS up for football, and sent an email informing the Z of such, attaching the website supporting the boys and girls club. That's it. My job is done. DS's practices and games WILL fall on his visitation. I cannot rely on DS to relay this info.

Like I said, as DS gets older, I expect THEIR relationship to dictate the amount of information that the Z asks for and gets. I also expect the Z to ASK or INQUIRE about things that he wants to know about. I'm no Kreskin, and cannot read his thoughts. He is responsible for his relationship with DS.



Me, too, foxy, me too. I respect your position on this, also. I also agree on points regarding the WS leaving, thus forfeiting their rights to certain aspects of daily life.

Thanks for all the great discussion, guys. I'm stuck in a corporate training on :drum roll: change management and don't have time to respond in detail at the moment.

Lots of thoughts. Few answers.

Here's a question. Why shouldn't I just go with co-parenting? What is the reason not to?

I think I need something more than "because then she gets what she wants," which is what seeped out of my spine when I asked myself that question on the way home last night.

Did you ask Jennifer this question?

If so, what did she say?

If not, why not?

For me, it comes down to self-respect. I will make NO effort to make his life easy after he stomped all over me.

I won't go out of my way to make it difficult but I'm not his knowledge bank anymore and don't need to notify him when a deposit has been made.

It could be different for me, too, because WxH isn't trying to co-parent. AT ALL. SCQ IS trying - and including you, not completely taking over.

For you, I dunno.

DDs have always been more my responsibility than WxH's, it's no different now than it was during the M. He's got other things in his mind, Fox will take care of DDs.

Not much help today, am I?

Fox

I see co parenting as SHARING in how you will raise your children, what values to instill in them, how to work with consequences in their lives, good and bad, what boundaries to teach and when, and so on and so on.

I don't see shuffling raw data as co parenting. Maybe that's why I'm differing in opinion to you Foxy. I don't discuss anything with Z, I just relay info having to do with school that he may not get. Other stuff, he can check the website for. I don't even bother relaying that info.

Guy, what does co parenting mean to you? How do YOU define it?

I agree with this. This is how I see co parenting.

Using this definition, it is IMPOSSIBLE to co parent with an active wayward.

A person with no or warped values or morals, not willing to face their own consequences, having no boundaries, cannot teach anyone else.

I think we agree more than we realize.

I cannot share this with WxH because he no longer has the values/morals/common sense/respect necessary. His credibility is absolutely shot.

The raw data ties into this, though, I think. When he gets this information from me effortlessly, itencourages his belief that he is a good father because he "knows" all of DDs information. He can regurgitate this information and look like father of the year to those that fall for it. If he wants to be father of the year, he can earn it.

:twobyfour: This darn horse just won't die!

I gotcha, SL, we just disagree on this one.

Fox

The way I see it, I pass info along that would have an impact during visitation schedule, such as the fact that I enrolled DS in football. If I didn't tell Z this, how would he know to check the roster for practice times and games? This would negatively impact DS's life. In the end, my concern is for DS, NOT for Z. AFter the initial contact, it's up to Z to follow up and make sure that DS gets to practices and games according to the posted schedule.

There were also a couple of times when DS's karate class was switched to an alternate meeting place for the following week, but it was not POSTED anywhere, it was just told to the parents after practice, word of mouth. Z relayed this info to me, so that I didn't take DS to the wrong venue, otherwise I wouldn't have known. The same happened the week that I had DS at practice. I relayed the change to Z. In the end, it was about DS.

If I didn't tell Z AT ALL, then DS would suffer and possibly lose his place on the team for not showing up, and I would be out the money that I put up for fees.

I think it's a different sitch mostly due to age. Your girls are perfectly capable of telling dad when they have practice or something going on. Also, your DD15 doesn't do visitation currently, so there's prolly not much to relay in regards to her. So far, Z has stuck to his visitation with DS, and therefore needs to know these things about his schedule.