In my sitch we have "joint custody" legal and physical so we're both to consult each other about all issues relating to the children.

I was a great mom Pre A. Yes, the A was selfish and I wasn't putting my children first when I did that. But yet years after the fact I do still believe I'm a good mom now and just because I was once wayward doesn't mean that I shouldn't be involved in decisions about parenting my children.

That's just how I personally feel.

I know it feels like you're giving in when you do this and that goes against the grain.

For me, it comes down to what is best for my kid, NOT ME, NOT Z, NOT NOBODY ELSE.

Legally, I am bound to discuss major decisions with Z. If he decides NOT to be a major part of DS's life, I can see not sharing this info with him, or tapering off communication. Right now, this is not the case.

Right now, he is a part time dad. HE still chooses to be a part of his life, wanting to know what DS is into and when.

In Guy's situation, they share physical and legal custody?, and SCQ IS involved in her kids' lives, and WANTS to know this information. The part that rubs me wrong is her demanding the information according to her timeline or schedule, or HOW she wants it delivered. This is why I suggested the online calendar. No need to discuss until AFTER the calendar has been consulted.

I agree that's a great idea.

WxH was not that great of a dad, Pre-A, and is 1000x worse during the A.

He is not a former wayward. He is actively wayward, spending more time with his OW's child than he does his own.

He doesn't give a rip about DD15 and uses DD14 to bolster his own justifications.

I'm not saying everyone is this way and does not deserve to be an active parent.

I'm saying those that choose to not make an effort to be a real parent should not expect the actual parent to do all their work too.

You all here know more about DD15 than her own dad does. By HIS choice.

Fox

That's really sad, I'm sorry to hear that.

WH and SD,

I'm a BS, so I can relate. But I do have to throw two cents into this issue.

It's not about you or your pain. It's all about the kids.

There is a great book called The Co-parenting Survival Guide.

It offers a good amount of food for thought.

One thing it points out is this:

How do you greet the pizza guy if he comes to your house?

You smile at him, open the door, do your business, then are done.

How do you handle it when your ex comes to the door?

There's oftentimes silence where not even a "hi" is exchanged.

So the two people in the world that the children love the most can't even say hi to each other. The pizza guy gets more courtesy.

Kids pick up on this.

SD, you have very little ones. You will need to get past your pain and deal with SCQ for them. The kids do pick up on things, even when not spoken. They can read body language and pick up looks between people.

Telling your ex about appointments and events is not something done for you but for your kids. WH, your attitude is that if he wants to know he can find out for himself. True enough.

BUT, he may not know or know the resources or is getting things mixed up.

This lack of communications hurts the kids and I have experienced it first hand.

My daughter got an award in school. My ex was notified via mail. She made a copy of the notice and put it into DD's backpack.

I don't always check DD's backpack because I get a lot of the info in there via email. So I never saw the notice.

DD sees me when I pick her up for church one day and she asks me why I didn't come. She said, "Mommy was there. Grandpa and Grandma were there. Why weren't you there?"

I simply didn't know. Ex never told me to check the backpack.

A simple one word email, "I put something in DD's folder. Make sure you check" would have been perfect.

Not for me. For DD and for an important even with DD.

I thought she purposely kept this info from me when in fact she tried to tell me.

So it boils down to accepting that while your spouse may have cheated and betrayed you and is not a good parent as a wayward, you still need to work with him/her for your kids regardless of your feelings.

If my ex and I communicated better, or had a once a week email exchanging info on upcoming events, then we wouldn't have had the problem, DD would have had her father there, and everything would be ok.

SD, Plan B is pretty much over once you divorce. I'm not saying go and be friends with WW, but you need to be able to communicate about the kids and need to set aside your feelings for them.

It's hard and it hurts, but the kids are the ones who hurt the most.

I was terrified as a 27 yo man to have my dad around my mom and her new H. Why? I didn't want him to be hurt despite the fact that HE was the one who cheated and broke up the family.

What helped me?

Seeing my parents together and friendly.

One of the best memories of this past year is of both of my parents, divorced, and here in my home. We sat and drank wine and laughed and joked. They were here for me and one of my court appearances.

The past was left in the past and they were here for me.

You are long ways from that. I can't say that would have been possible if dad had stayed with OW (she was never going to set foot in my home) but it's a goal you want to keep in mind.

Get the book. It's a short read.

But the attitude of "if he/she wants to parent then he/she needs to get the info" only hurts your kids.

Now if he/she ignores the info once he/she has it, then that's a different story.

But you, SD and WH, need to be the better person and do it for your kids.

I was going to let this drop - but I feel the need to respond to this as some of it was directed to me.

DDs have pain, too, from the A. THAT is what it looks like you are asking me to ignore.


Let me know what you say to the pizza guy when he rips your family apart and continues to at the minimum emotionally abuse my oldest DD.

He causes her harm and I'm supposed to smile and pretend that it doesn't matter?

THAT is better for DDs?


His stupidity is not my problem. I've been his secretary and his mother for way too long. He has two feet, he can stand on them.


BS. Is that what your Plan B letter said? "I will not communicate with you until you are no longer in contact with OP. Unless, of course, you decide to actually go through with the D and magically, on that day, I'll sweep it all under the rug and ignore everyone's feelings and rights but yours."

Animosity harms the children.

So does teaching them that their feelings do not matter, that someone can harm you and you supposed to just ignore it and "get along."

My DDs are more important than that and so am I.


Thanks for the opinion - and for calling me "WH".

Sometimes being the better person is sticking up for your family and demanding better treatment.

Each one of us has a right not to accept mistreatment. I will not take his abuse any longer and I will not subject DDs to it.

Yes, the pizza guy is more welcome in my home. At least he was invited.

Fox

ETA: I could feel the Amigos cringe from here.

My ex chose to move out of state for his affair partner, which put us in a really bad situation. He also does not pay child support. I do nothing for him - I tell him nothing of the kids activities, I do not send cards, pictures, invitations, etc. The kids are free to call him anytime, just as he is free to contact them, but I will do nothing. He lost that right when he abandoned us. He is the one who is missing out due to his pathetically poor and destructive choices.

Raquel73
DDay 6/2006
Divorced 8/200
Me (BW) 35
ExWH 35
Son 14
Son 10
Daughter 8

Foxy lady

NO cringing from me. The anger is palpable, and it's reasonable. Your WH abandoned his kids and continues to abuse BOTH of them. In the case of you DD15, he ignores her. In the case of DD14, he USES her (I thought I heard you mention that she is supposed to be babysitting Bab's DS8 on her visitation day with WH).

I was actually going to address this with you earlier and forgot--with all that pesky work getting in the way of my posting.

Wouldn't this be a good time to broach the subject of saying "NO" to certain things. Learning that you are allowed to say NO is a very important developmental step. I understand that DD14 really wants to please her dad, but I believe it is important that she has a voice in this. She may see what the power of NO did for DD15, and is afraid of the alienation and abandonment, but it's at least a subject that can be talked over. I dunno, just my humble opinion. You may have already broached this subject with DD14.

WH abandoned me. I can deal with that. DS is young, and easier to deal with right now, and relishes every moment he gets to spend with his dad. I have NO idea how Z will handle his relationship when his son is older and bolder. :RollieEyes:

That was a total tangent, but it's where my thoughts went... :crosseyedcrazy:

I'm good, SL.

It's the "getting along" thing that gets to me.

It is NOT always what is best.

Sure the "theory" sounds good, but putting it into practice does not always work and does not always benefit the children.

I have talked with DD14 about the babysitting and she does seem truly ok with it. She does get paid and the almighty dollar is important to her right now. She essentially ignores Babs S8 when she is there and he ignores her, from what she says. It'd be no different if she was there all alone while WxH was at work. She's glad to be paid doing the exact same thing she would be doing without S8 there.

I don't like it and it is not how I would teach her how to treat a "job" that she has accepted. I'm not dealing with her on this one. WxH can address it if he doesn't like it. I doubt Babs cares - DD14 is cheap labor, it doesn't really matter if S8 is taken care of or not.

Getting along doesn't work in my sitch, it might in others. We're not clones.

Fox

It's interesting that you say 'get along'. This is not how my sitch is either. If Z arrived at the door, I would close it in his face. I have no interest in direct conversation, or conversation at all. DS is well aware that his mom has been hurt by his dad, and wants him to stay away from her, but that his relationship with his dad is not something I will interfere with.

I fully EXPECT DS to pick up on the fact that I do not want to be around his dad. I don't broadcast it, but I also don't try to control my body language. I'm CIVIL if I'm around him, which hasn't been at all over the summer, which is nice.

Like I said, I relay bits of data. That's it. NO pleasantries or whatever. It's seriously just, "DS is enrolled in Blahbetty blah, here's the web link www.bitofdataforyou.com"

Who knows what our relationship will be in the future, right now, it's nonexistent.

Wow! Lots I missed today, too! I am sitting at the airport right now, so not sure how long I have to post.

Foxy, girl I'm pretty much with you in that trying to co-parent with an active wayward is for the birds. I did pretty much as SL states,,,,,sent on bits of data as necessary. I always put DD first - but as you said, they are grown men capable of doing what is necessary should they CHOOSE to.

Just look at Drac, now capable all by himself of finding and using school websites! Amazing what they can do when they aren't running around trying to justify their Affairs and totally focusing on the AP.

You can co-parent without being friendly. My kids were well aware of the pain caused me by Drac and the A. They understood my position not to see or speak to him unless it was an emergency. They, too, are aware of their own pain caused by him. They know it's ok to talk about it and they know it's ok to see him, love him, want to be with him.

SD, it's easy to fall into the thinking of "why not" do the friendly co-parenting thing. The one thing I can say that made the difference for me when I was wavering many times while it was HappyHoHouse - - was that being friendly co-parents HURT me. BAD. When I hurt like that, it makes me LESS of a good mother to my kids. I look at it no different than if I were a drug addict. Taking the drug makes me less of a good mom to my kids. Answer to that problem - don't take the drug.

You can co-parent without meeting her 'demands' of how it should be. Bits of necessary data can be shared and life moves on.

I know lots of back & forth on your thread today - All while you are getting that FABULOUS training on change!! Did you offer to step up and do some teaching???!!! Take time to take it all in. Nothing has to happen or change in the next few hours.

Breathe.

Thanks, Bugsy. It was maybe one day's worth of content spread out across two (I have to do it again tomorrow).

Thanks for all the great discussion. I'll have to absorb it and maybe respond after the kids go to bed tonight. If I'm not asleep myself.

I got interrupted by a flood of emotion from the kids on the way home. I was pretty determined to follow SL's advice and let the rest of it go before this happened. Now I'm tempted to send the following:

You have asked for more communication. This was not prompted by me, in case you are wondering, and the kids told me that they wanted me to report it to you.

On the way home from daycare-provider's today, both kids broke down crying. They said they missed you today just like they miss me when they are with you.

DD5 asked why it has to be this way--why we can't be a family. I told them that pretty soon we will be divorced, which really got them crying. DS8 got upset when I explained to DD5 what the word meant. He won't say the word himself, and he wanted to protect his sister from its meaning. It was touching.

I told them that this isn't the way I want things, either--that I want you to come home so that we can be a family again. We realized that there is only one person who is happy with the way things are (you), but DS8 said that he could think of one other person.

I asked them whether or not they like POSOM, and they each said no. I reminded them that it's okay for them to like him--that they don't have to not like him because I don't, and they said again that they don't like him. I reminded them that it is okay for them to talk about him if that's what they want to do.

I asked them if they have been spending a lot of time at his house, and they said yes. I asked them if they liked that, and they said no. They said his house is boring, that there's only a pool for the dogs, and that there's nothing to do. DS8 said that he has been pretending to like it for a long time. His words, unsolicited. He said more than once that he has been "pretending to like it" for a long time.

Both kids have expressed to me previously that they want to tell you some of these things but that it's too hard. DS8 told me this in tears once--that it's just too hard to tell you how he really feels about things.

I asked them if they wanted to send you a letter to tell you these things, and they each said yes and set out to do it but they managed to distract themselves somewhere along the way. I asked DS8 if he was going to do it, and he said something about doing his homework first. I asked him if it was too hard, and he said yes. I asked both kids if they wanted me to tell you some of these things for them, and they said yes. I asked DD5 what she wanted me to tell you for her, and she said that she wants you to come home.

I asked them if they were angry about things, and they said yes.

Guys,

I'm not looking to attack anyone and wasn't criticizing and Wildhorses, I simply used WH as a means to shorten as I wrote.

The situation is different for everyone.

Divorce isn't easy and I have had my share of moments just like you have.

My kids have had some moments themselves. My daughter is a little older and was older when she went through this and she had her moments which really broke my heart.

I'm in your corner that the people that did this to us and to our children deserve little and deserve all the bad that's coming to them.

But coparenting does have to happen at some point.

Wild, you have older children that can speak for themselves and are old enough to have a bit of a grasp on what is happening.

I don't understand why she's made to babysit the 8 year old son of OW, but that is another child caught in the middle of this mess. Your daughters are going to make her life and his life absolute he** very soon. They're old enough to express their opinions.

My kids? 6 and 4 but were 3 and 1 when this all happened. They've adapted to the changes as they've gotten older.

I don't know how they'll feel as they grow up. I can imagine they won't be too pleased as they learn what other families are like and that they don't have to be shuttled between homes and didn't have to.

The choice to do this was made for us by selfish people who "weren't happy" and chose to quit than to try to save our marriages.

I understand your pain. But there does come a point, especially with really young ones, when the pain has to be set aside because you really do need to coparent.

SD, your story at the end there is heart breaking. I'm sorry your kids are feeling that way. They are ultimately the ones who suffer the longest in these situations because the selfish idiots who did this to them had no forsight to the damage they would and do inflict on your children.

They think only of themselves.

Do not for one second think that I don't harbor my own bit of anger over all that has happened, but there does come a point when showing that anger does hurt your children more than help them.

Believe me, I would rather never see exww ever again. But i have to and I need to handle it in a way that won't hurt my children.

Showing anger towards her in front of them is not a good thing.

I'm not saying any of this is easy or desirable, but there does come a point when the anger has to be let go and there has to be interaction.

Wild, you have to deal with idiot wayward for only 4 more years.

I have to deal with mine for 14. The approaches, as a result, are very different.

SD, you have a long ways as well.

You're too soon after the hurt to know that the anger does eventually subside and that even your kids adapt to the changes.

Your kids will likely never accept POSOM or OW, especially the older girls.

I would certainly make my visits to OW's house so bad that they would never want me to come again.

I never had to deal with that, thank God. But I would have rebelled in a horrible way with OW if I had to deal with her as a teen. My brother did a number on her car when he was a teen. I was much older.

No one is saying this is easy. But the anger does have to be put away at some point or set aside. It helps when you've worked through it on your own.

Seriously, guys, I'm in your corner. I understand the pain. I understand the anger. I know what that boiling rage inside feels like and the dark thoughts that accompany such emotions.

But what I'm saying to you is that those feelings do subside with time. If they don't, then you'll be an angry and bitter person for a very long time.

One reason to let go of anger is because it is literally killing me. My blood pressure is out of control and has been for 2 years. I have to let it go or I won't be a moral compass for my children if I die.

Our kids will be left with a person who feels no remorse for destroying their family and cheating and breaking their vows.

That's not the example they need to have and they need an example of someone who is strong and stable and can have a stable and strong marriage and truly put them first in their lives.

That is our mission as the betrayed.

But one thing to keep in mind:

He who angers you controls you.

The day will come when your ex no longer angers you and things that happen to them don't matter to you any more than some stranger up the road.

I'm not there yet, but I feel I'm on my way.

All I'm saying is that anger will kill you and it does have to set aside sometime for the kids.

But it's a process and it takes time.

My advice wasn't intended to criticize and point fingers.

It was a great discussion, and I wish I could have taken part more at the time.

I know that someday I will transition to a friendlier co-parenting model. I think that I could be cordial if not friendly toward the SCQ. I just think that I would have to be fully, completely Done first, and my Done-o-meter isn't quite pegged yet.

I feel like I could start doing it tomorrow, but for some reason I would want to tell her off first. Friendly co-parenting after a good Plan FU. That's what it feels like, anyway.

So, at some point, I will do this (the co-parenting, not the FU). But not yet. Like has been said, it's all too raw.

I get that it will be better for the children. I have suspected all along that Plan B wasn't great for the children--it would probably be healthier for them to not know how much pain and anger the SCQ caused me. I rationalized this with the knowledge that marital recovery would be the very best thing for the kids, and that plan B gave us the best shot.

intact marriage >>> co-parenting > animosity

I think I was hoping someone would say this. And Fox, I think it's what Jennifer would say. All the necessary contact for co-parenting would undo the purposes of plan B (self-protection, as Bugsy wisely pointed out; protection of the spouse from hurtful content like I started letting out; and it would be meeting an EN of the WS).

Interested in thoughts on my previous post and how stupid an idea it would be to send it. I'm thinking to send it.

Bugs, what I learned about change management is that my company has been doing it wrong for the last several years. I have to do it again tomorrow.

Chrisner, years and years ago the SCQ and I lived in an apartment at Bandana Square on Energy Park Drive just off Snelling, which is walking distance from the MN state fair. Tell the Butter Queen I said hi.

I thought you did say it.

She'd probably interpret it as you doing this to the kids because in her eyes "they're fine".

It would also spoil her image of Divorce Happy Land where POSOM is a great step dad and you all hold hands and sing Kumbaya and the kids are happy with the changes.

I don't think she'd either believe you or care.

If the kids wrote letters, she'll say you put them up to it.

She won't see their pain or care any more than she sees yours or cares.

A wayward sees what she wants to see and fools others and themselves.

Others can throw their 2 cents in.

I think this explains it much better than I did.

I get what you are saying, Po3, and I agree to an extent when it comes to younger kids.

I also feel that acceptance of whatever somebody throws at you is not something I want to teach children. It's hard to teach something is wrong when they see you accept it as okay.

My post on this subject does seem raw and anger filled but I am not that way on an everyday basis. WxH is no longer my focus.

I harbor anger because an injustice was done to my family and it rises to the surface quickly when I feel someone is defending that injustice. That is not wrong. I SHOULD be angry - but it does not have to rule me.

This forum is a way to get that out of my system. DDs aren't here and are not made uncomfortable by my personal thoughts and feelings.

They get to have their own.

I have many more than 4 more years to deal with WxH. I have the lifetime of my children. After 18 comes family holidays, high school graduation, college tuition, college dorms, college graduation, new home, weddings, grandchildren, friend/family deaths, etc, etc. We are forever connected through our children. It becomes MORE difficult for DDs at the point because the decisions is then up to them as to which house they go to on any given holiday - if any.

I am civil in his presence now. I am not friendly. He is a traitor. I will not be friendly until is OW is gone and he has at least offered an apology for the harm done to us.

Information that I KNOW he cannot get or I'm not comfortable sending through DDs is sent by me in as short and factual email as I can do.

SDguy, I'd be tempted to send the email. I don't know if that is right or wrong. I doubt she'll hear you - and may actually put pressure on your kids to make them change their minds about POSOM.

I dunno. What is the gain - what is the cost? Your call.

Fox

Wild,

I can't say I'd be all that friendly if she was with one of the men she hooked up with from the internet. She's with someone right now that she met after our D (which was only one month after I found out she wanted out. Complicated story).

So I can't be upset about OM, because he's technically not OM.

Would I be if he was OM? Absolutely. I'd probably still be angry.

I would have fought a heck of a lot harder legally and we would never have settled and I would have contested the D from the get go.

Odds are that things won't get better until the OM/OW are out of the picture.

Oftentimes the WW/WH does either come back to the BS at this point, who has long since moved on, or does at least try to apologize for what they've done to the family.

I've seen it on this board. Those waywards with kids return to the BS and apologize and look to R.

Those without oftentimes either return with apologies or move on to OM/OW 2, 3, or 4.

I'm speaking in general terms.

The ones that seem to have waywards that come back looking to R are the ones that were strong from the start and didn't appease or make things easy.

They seem to be the ones that do well either in terms of regaining their M or in terms of having a good personal recovery.

Mortarman comes to mind. He was strong as a BH. He made nothing easy for her and the affair ended and WW saw how much destruction she brought on the family and the children and they are now well into recovery. It took a loooong time for the fog to lift for her.

Chrisner is a good example of the other kind. Good personal recovery with no need for interaction with WW at all because their daughter is an adult.

Your kids will have a say in things. I can tell you that my father was welcome to family events but he knew, without having to ask, that bringing OW was completely out of the question. He tried to ask once and was shot down so quickly that he never brought it up again.

My wedding, for example. There was absolutely no way that woman would have been welcome and if he had asked I would have told him, "Come alone or don't come at all."

My mom came with her new husband. Her new H stepped aside and knew his place and was respectful of the moments where Mom and Dad played their role with me as my parents.

Things were hostile with my parents for a long time, but they are friendly with each other now and that is good for me as a child since I don't have to worry about having them around each other with arguments and fights. Things are very pleasant because they are civil and friendly and don't fight.

Your daughters are young teens, but their anger towards OW will simply grow with time. I don't know of any happy stories where teen kids happily accepted the new woman or the one that was a source of the affair.

I stayed the heck away from OW because I don't know what I would have done if I saw her. A piece of my mind would have been a light response.

Kids my age grow up with the change. I don't know how they will feel as they get older. I've heard and seen stories of kids that decide they've had enough of the one parent and go live with the other. I'm seeing it now with my step siblings. Their mom is involved with a guy they absolutely hate and can't stand while they get along great with my mom who is married to their dad.

I get along with my mom's husband and enjoy hanging out with him. But I still love my dad very much despite his cheating.

It's like SD's kids. They love both parents and are torn and are the ones who will suffer the longest. Nothing would please kids more than to see their parents reunite.

I've had my own DD6 tell me that she wishes we all lived together.

While that isn't possible, then the least I can do is be civil and friendly to their mom in front of them.

They don't need to know what i feel inside towards that other person.

Yes, they cheated.
Yes, they lied and betrayed.
Yes, they turned their back on their vows.

But there comes a point when that has to be set aside with very little ones who don't understand.

Age of the kids is a big factor. It is really much harder on older kids than on younger ones.

Older kids have memories of how things use to be and actually miss that.

Younger ones grow up with the changes.

I can't say my dad was the greatest dad in the world who was very involved in anything we did, but I still love him very much.

He very recently had a good moment with me when he just let me cry away on his shoulder. He put his arm around me as I let it all out.

I'm sure he very much regrets the path he forced on our family because of how things turned out.

But I can't hold things against him forever. At least not if I want to have a good relationship with him.

The big BUT to all of this is that OW did eventually disappear from the picture.

So that may be what it takes for you Wild, and for you SD, so that you can deal with and interact with the wayward in a positive way.

Belive me, I very much understand exactly how you feel. It's hard to look at that other person and not feel rage inside for what they did to you and your kids.

But that has to be tempered and it does subside with time.

It may not if he stays with OW/OM. I don't know what that's like.