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EE your study is about abuse of boys. MEDC already mentioned about abusive parents more commonly being the mother. I'm talking about abused wives. Believe me, my XH was a 6'4", 200 lb full grown man whan he smashed my 5'7" 115 lb frame into pieces. I know many women like me. I've yet to meet a man that underwent the same degree of physical damage. I'm sure there are some but they most definitely are not more common.
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What I'm saying is that it could very well be "self inflicted" violence. Women are teaching sons that violence is the way to deal with problems. So when those boys grow up and become men and use violence to solve their problems, it's just the natural consequence of their mothers being violent to them. So the damage caused by these mothers is not so much to their sons, but ultimately to the women they marry. Many abused women can thank abusive mothers for training their sons to be abusive. That's the point I'm making. That's the unseen damage done by these mothers. It's passed on to their sons' wives. PS, by self inflicted, I'm talking in a gender sense, the damage mothers do to their sons is ultimately damage done to other mothers. It's in that sense that I call it self-inflicted. Not that anyone is intentionally, personally hurting themselves. EE your study is about abuse of boys. MEDC already mentioned about abusive parents more commonly being the mother. I'm talking about abused wives. Believe me, my XH was a 6'4", 200 lb full grown man whan he smashed my 5'7" 115 lb frame into pieces. I know many women like me. I've yet to meet a man that underwent the same degree of physical damage. I'm sure there are some but they most definitely are not more common.
Last edited by Enlightened_Ex; 10/02/08 03:01 PM.
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"Actually Dr Harley spoke on this a few weeks ago and said that more MEN are hospitalized for being physically abused by their wives/partners that WOMEN for being abused by their husbands/partners."
This is just plain BS. Statistics prove otherwise. Take it up with Dr H. He was sharing this in his radio program in the past 5 weeks.
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It's simply not true. All of the statistics support the fact that women are abused more often, hospitalized more often, and murdered more often by their husband.
But I agree, abuse is wrong, no matter who the abuser is.
And I agree with MEDC - cuff them and lock them up. Nothing like some time in jail to change them.
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I've yet to meet a man that underwent the same degree of physical damage. Visit a morgue...they are there. Last time I saw one of them, he had a knife sticking from his chest...buried up to the handle. I don't buy Dr. H's stats....but I KNOW it is a lot closer than the media would have people believe. Women can be just as vicious and more abusive than men...they just don't have the strength to always complete their task. Tabby seems to imply that abuse against women is worse. It isn't. It's just different.
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It's simply not true. All of the statistics support the fact that women are abused more often, hospitalized more often, and murdered more often by their husband.
But I agree, abuse is wrong, no matter who the abuser is.
And I agree with MEDC - cuff them and lock them up. Nothing like some time in jail to change them. This study back in 1995 indicates even then the numbers were close to even, with men suffering one percent more present physical abuse than women. To say that men do this more than women is to keep one's head in the sand. Domestic Violence as seen in an Inner-City Emergency Room
Abstract of an Article
Annals of Emergency Medicine
Research by Amy A Ernst, MD*, Todd G Nick, PhD‡, Steven J Weiss, MD*, Debra Houry§, Trevor Mills, MD||
Annals of Emergency Medicine
Official Journal of
the American College of Emergency Physicians
August 1997
volume 30 number 2
Copyright © by the American College of Emergency Physicians
Domestic Violence in an Inner-City ED
Amy A Ernst, MD*, Todd G Nick, PhD‡, Steven J Weiss, MD*, Debra Houry§, Trevor Mills, MD||
Study objective: To determine the prevalence of domestic violence (DV) for male and female ED patients and to determine the demographics of DV.
Methods: The study design was a descriptive written survey of adults. We used the Index of Spouse Abuse (ISA), a previously validated survey tool. The study was set in an inner-city ED with approximately 75,000 patients annually, most of them indigent. Patients 18 years or older who were able to give consent were included. Patients were excluded if they had a language barrier, were a prisoner, or had never had a partner. All patients presenting during 31 randomly selected 4-hour shifts during July 1995 were considered for the study. DV was defined as either physical or nonphysical on the basis of ISA scoring. The prevalence was determined for present (in the preceding year) and past (more than 1 year ago) abuse. Four violence parameters were calculated for patients who had a partner at the time of presentation: present physical, present nonphysical, past physical, and past nonphysical. Only the “past” parameters were calculated for patients who had had a partner in the past but had no partner at the time of presentation. We used the chi2 test to determine individually significant predictors of the four parameters. Logistic-regression models were constructed to determine the significant predictors of DV. Associations among the present physical, present nonphysical, past physical, and past nonphysical abuse categories were determined with McNemar’s test.
Results: We enrolled 516 patients, 233 men and 283 women. On the basis of ISA scoring, 14% of men and 22% of women had experienced past nonphysical violence (P=.02, men versus women), and 28% of men and 33% of women had experienced past physical violence (P=.35). Of the 157 men and 207 women with partners at the time of presentation, 11% of men and 15% of women reported present nonphysical violence (P=.20), and 20% men and 19% of women reported present physical violence(P=.71). Using logistic-regression models, we determined that women experienced significantly more past and present nonphysical violence but not physical violence than men. For all four parameters, the victim’s suicidal ideation and alcohol use were independently associated with DV. The victim’s family history was strongly associated with past abuse. Using McNemar’s test, we found that physical and nonphysical abuse were correlated in the past and present.
Conclusion: Using a validated scale, we found that the prevalences of physical DV for men and women are high and that they are not statistically different in this population. Using chi2 testing, we found that women had experienced significantly more past nonphysical violence than men; using logistic regression we found that they experienced significantly more nonphysical violence (both past and present) than men. DV was frequently associated with suicidal ideation, alcohol use, and family history of violence.
[Ernst AA, Nick TG, Weiss SJ, Houry D, Mills T: Domestic violence in an inner-city ED. Ann Emerg Med August 1997;30;190-197.]
Author and Reprint Information
From the Department of Emergency Medicine, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN;* the School of Health Related Professions, University of Mississippi Medical Center, Jackson, MS;‡ and Tulane University School of Medicine§ and the Section of Emergency Medicine, Louisiana State University,|| New Orleans, LA.
Received for publication September 26, 1996. Revision received March 21, 1997. Accepted for publication April 10, 1997.
Address for reprints: Amy A Ernst, MD, Department of Emergency Medicine, Vanderbilt University, 703 Oxford House, Nashville, TN 37232-4700
Manuscript number: 47/1/83133
Copyright Clearance Center number: 0196-0644/97 $5.00 + 0
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All of the statistics support the fact that women are abused more often, hospitalized more often, and murdered more often by their husband. I will grant that murdered and hospitalized are likely both true. Abused...I have serious doubts about that. I know VERY few men that have NEVER been slapped by their wife. And I know one man that has hit his wife...and I told him if it ever happened again, he would answer to me....btw, that was one of my brothers (and he had previously been slapped by her!). I have big doubts about those stats since men report abuse so very rarely...and even still, the DOJ numbers are not terribly far off.
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Odd, I've seen many posters share information here that they have read. No mind, I'll rework the post very soon, so as not to "offend". It isn't at all uncommon for victims of abuse to at some point respond in kind. I am more addressing the PATTERNS and dynamics of abuse, rather than the gender of perpetrators. By patterns and dynamics, I am referring to the power and control - which is what actually drives the abuse. On the subject of statistics, personally I see them as irrelevant. Abuse in any form is harmful, no matter who the victim is. I know VERY few men that have NEVER been slapped by their wife. I have never slapped anyone in my life.
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cat, Originally Posted By: frozen1229catperson,
What do you think about all the "yes" answers you provided? I think my life sucks. Are you interested in talking about it? If you would prefer to talk privately rather than publicly, feel free to e-mail me anytime.
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Me too, Froz. Gender doesn't matter.
And I have never slapped a man either.
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Hey believer!
It is actually quite common for abusers to claim that "they" are the ones being abused. I've never known an abuser who hasn't.
Do they believe that or do they know they are lying?
Personally, I think both.
Given their warped sense of right/wrong and the overblown entitlement, they very well may truly believe that not acquiesing to any demands they make IS unfair mistreatment of them.
Also, they need a reason to justify their behavior and any mistake a victim might be guilty of makes easy fodder for the abuser to justify not only their abuse, but their blame for the source of the problems as well.
Abusers WANT you to make mistakes..."See how horrible she is to me? See what I have to put up with? Poor me, poor me, poor me."
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Do they believe that or do they know they are lying? That reminds me of something I read (don't remember which book) that said that abusers feel an intense emotion toward their victim. Because that feeling is so intense, they assume it is love, although it's actually not love but an extension of their dysfunctional need to BE loved. Thus they are surprised when anyone tries to point out they're doing wrong. "But I LOVE her!"
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Hey believer!
It is actually quite common for abusers to claim that "they" are the ones being abused. I've never known an abuser who hasn't.
Do they believe that or do they know they are lying?
Personally, I think both.
Given their warped sense of right/wrong and the overblown entitlement, they very well may truly believe that not acquiesing to any demands they make IS unfair mistreatment of them.
Also, they need a reason to justify their behavior and any mistake a victim might be guilty of makes easy fodder for the abuser to justify not only their abuse, but their blame for the source of the problems as well.
Abusers WANT you to make mistakes..."See how horrible she is to me? See what I have to put up with? Poor me, poor me, poor me." But why would this only be the behavior of male abusers? Given what you've said, one should also treat the complaints of women victims with the same skepticism? One could easily say the same when a woman is saying, "See how horrible he is to me? See what I have to put up with? Poor me, poor me, poor me." Or it might go, "See how controlling he is" while she is the controlling or manipulative one as one example. So if we are going to question complaints, let's be sure that we are not biased by gender.
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Enlightened - I think we've said it several times. Abuse is wrong, whether done by man or woman.
I don't know your history, but I speak as a former abused wife. My boys' dad was physically abusive - to the point where he knocked me down and beat me when I was pregnant, causing me to have a miscarriage.
I won't tolerate abuse whether done by men or women.
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Did you know that a victim of domestic violence usually leaves the abuser 7 times before they are gone for good?
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Enlightened - I think we've said it several times. Abuse is wrong, whether done by man or woman.
I don't know your history, but I speak as a former abused wife. My boys' dad was physically abusive - to the point where he knocked me down and beat me when I was pregnant, causing me to have a miscarriage.
I won't tolerate abuse whether done by men or women. I was hit, cursed at, etc by an unfaithful ex-wife. I never once called her a name, not even at the high of her affair, never once laid a hand on her in anger, never yelled. I was angry, but I would get quiet and logical. I would ask pointed questions, uncomfortable questions when I was angry. But never once did I lie, cheat, steal, hit, or demean her. Abuse is not a gender issue, it's a character issue. Every article that perpetuates the myth that men are more abusive than women is just a form of verbal abuse towards men. The forms of abuse are different. But to say men are more abusive than women is to say men are more sinful than women and that is plain hogwash.
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EE, Abuse is not a gender issue, it's a character issue. Well said. Henceforth I will refrain from using "he" and "she" and will instead use "abuser" and "victim". cat, That reminds me of something I read (don't remember which book) that said that abusers feel an intense emotion toward their victim. Because that feeling is so intense, they assume it is love, although it's actually not love but an extension of their dysfunctional need to BE loved. Thus they are surprised when anyone tries to point out they're doing wrong. "But I LOVE her!" That makes perfect sense to me. It also falls completely in line with the process known as traumatic bonding (much like Stockholm Syndrome), which is a partial explanation for why victims profess to love the abuser, despite the abuser's treatment of them and why they go back an average of 7 times before permanently leaving the marriage. Traumatic bonding affects the abuser as well, much in the manner you described reading in the book you mentioned, cat.
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Did you know that a victim of domestic violence usually leaves the abuser 7 times before they are gone for good? That likely explains why I was willing to recover my marriage while my former wife was falling on the OM's penis. Edited to add: I was hit, but it didn't even leave a red mark on my face. I filed a police report, which was promptly ignored. Which further fuels my contempt as not all claims are treated as equal. If a woman hits a man and there is no mark, nothing happens to her.
Last edited by Enlightened_Ex; 10/02/08 05:06 PM.
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EE in the days when my XH was beating the crap out of me to where I had broken bones in my face, there was nothing to protect me. If I had died, he would have been charged with murder. But society looked at me as his property to do with as he felt like and the church said it was my fault for not being a good enough wife. Be thankful that today, as a man, you can file a police report. I could not back then and it wasn't so very long ago.
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If I were to post the events of my life up until I married my husband at the ripe old age of 18
not one person would believe me.
Just a few "lowlights" to give a bit of insight into what I might have to offer regarding abuse, so you can know that *I* know whereof I speak:
My head has been shoved in a toilet.
I have been beaten because I had bruises from a previous beating.
I was beaten for walking the "wrong" path home from school.
I was beaten because I handed someone their driver's license after he dropped it.
I was thrown out of a moving car.
I understand abusive relationships. Parent-child abuse, and spousal abuse. I understand it and lived it.
One thing that I understand fully is that somewhere in the cycle of the spousal abuse the person who is usually the victim somehow gets caught up in the dynamic of the drama. (I am NOT blaming the victim here - please follow me.) It becomes almost like a system of the relationship where the violence and arguing is somehow expected - it becomes the "way" the two interact. It becomes "normal", for lack of a better word, between the couple, even though neither of them want the relationship to be that way, and neither of them want that cycle to continue.
That cycle of fighting, making up, trying to get things on track, and then exploding again becomes a drama machine that "IS" the relationship. After so many cycles, somehow it is so entrenched that the couple cannot seem to escape it.
The victim does want it to stop. The abuser also wants to stop. There seems so much in the relationship that keeps the victim there. The basic underlying sense of love is there, and also the knowledge that the abusing partner DOES NOT WANT TO ABUSE. That is the hardest thing about this whole deal. The victim began the relationship with a person who was not an abuser - and the victim knows that person remains, somewhere deep inside. And when the abuser apologizes, the victim knows that person remains, the victim sees that part of the abuser there, still. Hope remains, they try again.
Until ultimately, hope is beaten out of the victim.
Another thing I know is that I had fear. Sure, there was fear of the abuser. But more certainly, I had fear that without the abuser in my life
I would fail.
I had learned, because of my position throughout the abusive relationships, that I was not sufficient, not worthy, not reliable, not effective, not strong.
I knew that failure was my only option.
That message was beaten into me.
I had to find one thing to lift me out - and give me light - that would convince me otherwise.
One. Thing.
SB
Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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