Good point. Obviously she did put her own needs ahead of mine. This can not be denied. But I could argue back that for a long time I put my own needs ahead of hers - No I didn't have an A but I put work and hobbies alot of the time ahead of her. Like I said - neither one of us was perfect in the M.
I do think my w was very very selfish in this A. But overall she is a good person who I have been with for 14 years. She is also the mother to my 3 children. These are not easy things to just throw away - even despite what she did.

Well, so much for them using each other.

She obviously has some serious feelings for OM. She can't even bad-mouth him for your sake.

PLEASE tell me you are going to do everything you can to rake Grandpa over the coals.

Break his 'F'ing hip.

USD,

I'm not saying you are perfect, or that you should ditch her. I would guess my xW is the grand champion of all time for selfishness and she wanted to keep the crown. I'm saying that maybe this line of discussion would be productive to help you guys work through the problems. We all put ourselves first, the question is how much we are ahead of the needs of other people.

USD,

Why don't you put an end to the speculation and ask her to submit to a polygraph exam?

Just make sure you follow through with the exam if she agrees to it.

If she doesn't agree, a very loud alarm should sound in your head.

Thanks for sharing that. I think the 1st part of what you posted is very similar. The OM definitely meet my wife's EN way better then me. I was neglecting me wife a lot in that respect. This OM has never given or bought my wife anything though. He has only given 'himself' (disgusting if you know what I mean). I do know what you mean about not being to compete though. Although I didn't know I was competing at the time during the A. The OM could spend almost all day talking with my w because he didn't work much (not because he was a slacker just because he didn't need to). I work 50-60 hours a week and can't really talk during work hours. I feel like looking back I almost had no chance. Obviously my wife shouldn't have been looking for a competition in the 1st place but that's water under the bridge.

The 'he made me a better person' comment sounds very similar to something my wife said. She said the OM valued her as a person when I did not. She said I just looked here as a mom and someone who took care of the house. The OM made her feel important. I did not.

I'm sorry to hear that your wife has picked up some destructive behaviors. But reading this thread has made me realize that I (and as well as you and all BS) need to value ourselves higher for our own well being and not let our WS think lower of ourselves. After all they are the ones with the real problems valuing their own self worth if they are willing to give up everything just to make themselves happy for a limited time.

A woman in her 30s should know that men who know they're about to get some become real, real nice. Darn near angelic, actually.

I really wish I knew. She doesn't show any of the signs of withdrawal that people mention here on the boards. Maybe the 1st week or so but there were so many emotions running wild who knows what she was depressed over. Its almost like she flipped a switch and said, ok no more OM, now I will devote myself to you. Strange. Maybe that in itself should be a red flag. But I have read other WW on here describe the same thing - that once the A was over they had no desire for the OM. I don't think they have reason to lie. The refusing to bad mouth him though, even if she doesn't 100% mean it, is really annoying. The worst she will say is yes he was selfish too. And should have known better. She feels that if she bad mouths him then she is saying something bad about herself because she part of the A too. She doesn't even like me bad mouthing him.

I really was completing a few revenge scenarios but my W really wouldn't go for them. She says she doesn't want to do any more damage to their family then she already has. This could be legit. Revenge is not the answer but sometime it feels so right. Eye for an eye, right?

During the NC my wife made to him (I know it wasn't a letter but this was before MB - I was winging it) I was listening in on the phone and after my wife said her piece I did manage to get in I would kick his a$$ if he ever contacted my wife again. I know not the most mature by it was heat of the moment. My wife did say that she thought he was genuinely intimidated by me and that for the most part he is a coward. So I guess that's something, huh?

I'm actually considering doing it. I think just the thought of it might make her open up a bit. But a big part of me says wow what has it come to. Do the ends always justify the means?

I'm sure she does. And my wife has gone out plenty of times with the girls to bars and clubs and stuff like that and has never done this before.(at least to my knowledge - get the polygraph ready). It just the whole EN needs things. The OM talked to her for regularly for almost a year before it became PA. And truth be told she was the one who initiated the PA. Nice detail, huh? Be careful what you ask for BS...
I really think she thought this OM valued her so much as person she was 'won' over by him.

I didn't say it justified anything.

I said it was a lame attempt by the WS to try and justify their affair.

The only fog that occurs is when the dewpoint and the air temperature get within 5 degrees or less of eachother!

To answer your question, I do not feel second BEST. I am a far better person than the OW will ever dream of being. I feel I am second CHOICE.

I feel like you feel about your W, that my H had a very strong emotional attachment to the OW.

I think that if it was not for the guilt of hurting his family and the fact that life would be easier to stay where he was he would have chosen to stay with the OW.

I also feel that there are no “chemical reactions” in the brain when it comes to having an A from beginning to end. It starts out as selfishness and gets even worse the longer it goes on. I totally agree with MEDC


I also agree with MEDC about the “everyone is capable of having an A” crap. I have always just naturally followed EPs and I have never been in a situation where I COULD have an A. I always think would I want my H doing or saying this before any action I take or word I speak.

And IMHO the “addiction” theory makes me feel even worse. I already know that my H had feelings for the OW and then I have to worry the rest of my life that it will happen again because he was “addicted” to the feelings? What makes me think he won’t crave his “addiction” again and again and again with same same OW or another one?

LOL boy isn't that the truth. It is funny how some wives complain that all their husbands want is sex yet somehow can't seem to realize that the OM damn sure wants sex. And he won't even care if he destoys a marriage to get it.

As far as FOG or anything like that put my in the camp with MEDC. It is not FOG it is what god gave us all and it is called Free Will.

It has nothing to do with FOG it is simply a choice to abuse your spouse. You could choose to stop but you don't. It seems like we have to invent something to explain why a person abuses their spouse. They do it because they want to. They do it because they can. They could stop anytime but choose not to.

Just because someone does not make a rational choice does not make them crazy.

If anything I see what some call FOG from the BS. They have to rationalize why their spouse is doing this to them instead of accepting that they are doing it because they have chosen to do it.

In my case my XW had a lot of (FOG) or Free Will and decided to cheat and keep cheating. It was amazing how when I kicked her out and filed for D her FOG or what I call Free Will changed real fast.

The fact is the second she dropped her panties for him she knew I would divorce her. And the lies were unreal. I was waiting for her to tell me next that she had been studying to be a snake charmer and found one in his pants and just wanted to apply her new profession. She was trying to beat the snake and suck the poision out of him. (I am sorry but I can laugh about this stuff now although I couldn't at the time.)

It would have been more honest than some of the stuff I heard. But again no fog just selfishness on her part. Unless you want to believe the snake charmer stuff then maybe she was just being a kind human and she had to do this service naked with many more treatments.

Bottom line - her free will and her choices and above all consequences. If we let our spouses treat us this way then it is not their fault... It is our own fault.. JMHO

Ive been reading thru your thread and a lot of things you were saying resonated with me.

I think part of you is still struggling with defining why the A happened and hoping to reverse time and repostion the stars so it would have never happned at all.
You are still early in yoru recovery and making tremendous progress given your time line. Sooner or later you will come to accept that its irreversable and permanent.

Seems you have a good handle on understanding what causes us in our relationships to be so busy with "tasks" and how easy it is for some one else to step in and fill a void that we leave. We do have jobs, kids,home tasks etc etc...That being constant the A has shown us how important it is to meet the needs of our spouses.


Seems to me in your case conversation is a big need for your WW and OM was filling that with hours of it. Obviously you cannot fulfil that during work hours but I think you will find that dedicating small amounts of daily time to meeting that need for her can go a long way towards making her feel valued.

As far as feeling 2nd best, thats a process of recovery you will have to work thru in your own head. I kinda did what you are doing elevating the importance of what OW was offering to my FWH. I had all these triggers like perhaps she did this better than me and perhaps she did that better than me. One day when I was sulking around and my H asked me what was wrong and I told him my thought about OW and he had this surprised look on his face like "You still think about her" and it hit me like a brick. He was so focued on what we doing towards recovery and so involved with us that it was only I who still carried her burden.
One piece of advise that sunk in with me is the reason my FWH shared things with her is because I was not available to do them with him. All along he wanted ME to talk to him on the phone. ME to go racing with him. Me to (fill in the blank).
So if he really wants to do them with me here I am and this is my wake up call to learn to be a great partner and learn the MB lessons. If he really wants somebody else to do all these things with the door is open, dont waste my time.
Once I accept the fact (if it is indeed true) that he chooses to spend his time and energy with me then there is no 1st or 2nd best.
I pick him and he picks me , the rest is all noise
Like it or not the A has brought in this opportunity for all of us to see how to be better mates so as much as there is a pain and suffering because of the A, there is also something positive that we can build from its ashes.

WMF thank you for this post, something in it spoke to me.

I have not read the entire thread so I'm sorry if I missed something. The title intrigued me so I went back to the first post after reading the last page.

First of all the thought that you were 2nd best during the A: absolutely you were - otherwise there wouldn't have been an A. WW chose OM over you. That cuts deep. Why would she go for second best?

But you cannot acknowledge that your WW's judgment during that time has any basis in reality so the fact that she thought you were second best is immaterial. Her perception of OM was based on something but it was not based on a direct and valid comparison between you and him. It was based on what she believed he was and, trust me, they are all Sir Galahad. No BH can compete with the WW's mental image of OM. Wasted effort.

What concerns me is that you still feel that way. It concerns me because, at times, I feel that way. Regardless of who we are or what our station in life, very few of us are totally self-confident all the time under the best of circumstances. Those who are often are sadly mistaken. Many of us struggle with confidence at times in our life. What better way to destroy your self-confidence than have the one person you love and trust the most betray you?

Unfortunately this is one lesson I don't think many waywards ever understand. Maybe I'm wrong. But I am not wrong in knowing that this is the one thing that a FWS could go miles toward recovery by assisting in. My FWW has never really acknowledged anything about the A. She prefers not to discuss it at all hoping the passage of time will erase its stain. We all have our ways of coping. But if my FWW were to make little comments now and again about how much she appreciated this or that or how she admires me for something (ability to mow grass maybe? - it doesn't have to be big things), those would be huge confidence builders because WW is acknowledging good qualities about you.

If your WW really wants to aid in your recovery, I think this is something you two should talk about. There is a real danger here. Your inability for self-recovery might convince you that you aren't good enough and, if that happens, it won't be long before WW starts thinking the same thing. It could become a vicious circle leading back to OM or yet another.

So for you to recover your M, you have to recover your self-image first. You have to learn to believe in yourself again. And I can tell you it isn't easy and it is especially difficult if WW is not actively trying to help.

WW is with you - not OM. She chose you - thought she found something better - realized she was wrong. The romantic affair is a real problem if the A is ended prematurely. I think it can haunt the BS and especially if you dwell on Frank Pittman.

Sometimes I think it might be better to let the A simply run its course but most marriages would not survive it. Truth is when you think it all the way through, it really would make you 2nd prize. If WW runs off with OM, OM dumps WW and WW comes running back, you are nothing nore than the only offer left on the table.

I think WW's perception of OM changes with time. I think WW's perception of you also changes with time. The stronger and more self-confident you can be right now, the more easily you will recover your M. You need to believe that you are worthy of WW. If you don't, why should she?

I wish there were a pill. I still have these thoughts at times but fortunately those times are becoming fewer and further between. I also know I could live quite happily without FWW if the need should arise and that helps a lot. I think of the A as a duel with pistols. FWW fired her shot and failed to kill me. She has no bullet left. Now I have to put my gun down because I didn't want this fight to begin with. The other option is to mire in self-doubt and live each day wondering if this will be the day that WW finally decides to leave.

I guess my point is that you are not alone in this struggle. It sounds like there are some things (albeit small things) WW could do to help you. She has her own demons to deal with and may not be totally cognizant of yours.

Thanks for your reply. I imagine a lot of BS struggle with this topic because for the duration of the A it is true. But the BS are only 2nd best from the WS point of view. The people on this thread have made a lot of good points and it was helpful for me. I thanks them all. Unfortunately the A did lower my self-worth. It makes you think, wow, even my own wife doesn't like me. But I'm beginning to realize the thinking is unhealthy and just not true. My wife choose to do what she did because she has her own issues and the A reflects more on what her issues are then mine. And I do agree with the comments here - I should no way fell 2nd best to someone who is capable of doing things the OM did. Even if the OM has some traits that are better then me, the OM's overall value as a person is nothing compared to me.
I have discussed the 2nd best feeling with my WW and it is something we are working on. I have told her all the things she did for the OM and everyone else and not for me and how that made me feel. I think (hope) she is finally seeing it. But time will tell.
My WW feeling towards the OM changed in a big way recently. Up until he a few days ago he was a good guy who just made a mistake. Now she hates him. We'll see if it's real. I hope so because this has been a big issue with us. Not that I want my wife to blame the OM 100% for the A because she did it too but quite frankly I can't handle her consistently defending him. I think it was making recovery almost impossible.

I have learned to endure things I thought weren't humanly possible and appreciate people who post their own feelings and experiences on here to know that I am not alone in my struggles and thoughts.

UP, you are indeed ****EDIT****. ****EDIT****. It may well be ****EDIT****. You may ****EDIT****.

But, what do you think of yourself?

That is what truly counts.

Get YOUR ENs met for a change. Let your taker out a bit.

Get to where you don’t need her to assess your own worth. Then see what you feel.


Mel, they ALL cheat as a matter of character. OK, then maybe they become addicted (I use the word addicted here for simplicity but not because it accurately applies) to their feelings. Addicted to the dopamine and other brain chemicals generated as part of the natural mating instinct.

That being said, Dr H started his practice as an addiction specialist and he says he noticed similar indicators for adultery. He based MB methods on addiction treatments. He also says, contrary-wise, all non-adultery addictions must be overcome first before MB methods will work. Must be why MB only rarely works.

I agree with you. That may be the true reality of the situation in certain regards. Like if the OM was better at conversation or more funny. But everyone who has ever been with someone else could say the same thing - maybe my 1st wife was prettier or my 1st girlfriend was taller. Comparing things is a human trait. Like it or not we all do. However my wife is choosing to be with me. She could go to the OM. She has no desire to. She wants to be with me. I guess that counts for something.

But I do realize that I need to realize I am a good person in my own regard. That I am choosing to be with my WW because I want to. But that if it doesn't work out there is someone else out there that I could be happy with.

I do agree 100% about the EN. My EN have been neglected for a long time. I told her this has to change. If I'm putting myself out there - she has to try as well. She has agreed and I have noticed a difference.

And I agree cheating is part of your character - Some people can do it easier then others. My WW needs a lot of attention and has a problems not being able to tell the truth - mainly to avoid conflicts. A deadly combo for someone who has the opportunity to have an A.

****EDIT****

Aphelion,

Please email me. My email is below.

Thank you.