Yeah, my W's OM said the only reason he was staying in his marriage is his W would commit suicide.

After D-day, I went into Plan A, and WW did notice a change and things started to get better between us. But, after a week, contact started again. When I exposed to OMW and family, the same thing happened. It happened again after I caught them at lunch 2 weeks ago. All through this I have continues plan A with no results. I know plan A can take up to 3-6 months, but at this point, i don't know how much more i can take to let the A die on its own.

My confrontations the last 2 days are not part of plan A, but I am losing it a little bit and had to try something, even if it is an LB.


Dr. Harley is running late now. I can't stand the waiting.

"but doesn't want to push my WW into something she doesn't want."

Are you kidding? He wants to get into your WW's pants in the worst way. The premier player that the OM is. He knows he has to act as it is the last thing he wants. If he wants success in reaching his objective.

"The one good thing is that every time he gave her the decision to proceed further, she backed down."

It may or may not indicate your plan A is working.

I fully realize his goal, that is just what he is saying.



She was always the one to back down even before d-day, so i am not too sure that my plan has had any effect on her.

And then he can cry to his wife that WW was AFTER HIM and he tried to resist. :RollieEyes:

If WW is backing down, she might only be hesitating because she is weighing her options. Given that she has had a taste of exposure and the embarrassment it brings she might be holding out until she feels more confident that she has you duped.

Have you printed the latest emails between WW and OM as evidence for OMW?

I am sure this is what she is doing. Her family told her that if she doesn't at least try to heal things with me that they will never forgive her, and her family is very important to her.




Not printed, but they have all been copied into word files that are saved on my email. OMW lives an hour away, so i'll send her them in an email.

Preach on, Krazy.

When it comes to BH/WW situations, Plan A is for ****edit**** ... it only compounds the problem by showing your WW just how much of a doormat you can truly be.

ULTIMATUMS are the way to go ... you know where you stand very soon. In fact, there are only a small fraction of BH/WW situations that are salvageable.

Unless you are dealing with a drunken ONS, very short term A, limited PA type of situation, AND you have a immediately remorseful WW, then you have basically no chance at a successful R anyway.

As soon as the WW has EMOTIONS involved, the M is toast.

Obviously, from reading through some of the stories here that "claim" recovery, there are many BH's who simply acquire a taste for ***edit*** and deceive themselves into believing that they have something worth sacrificing their self-respect ... if they ever had any.

There would be a lot more healthy BH's here if ultimatums were standard operating procedure, but then again, there wouldn't be nearly as many counselling fees generated.

wow...

nothing like a good confidence builder right before my meeting...

You just said this:
"At one point, 2 weeks ago, they decided to have no physical contact until Jan 1, and then see if each other wanted to continue."

Sounds like she is weighing her options to me. If her family was as important as she says she wouldn't still be in contact with OM. She is playing you and them hoping to come out as unscathed as possible if she decides to persue OM. Giving you her password only after she destroys evidence is not trying to heal things with you. She just doesn't know her pretense in known.


Make the drive. An hour is nothing compared to what you are at risk of losing. OM could intercept your email and that would be that. Go to the house and deliver them when OM is at work or at the very least send via registered mail.

tc,

FWIW, that message was brought to you by the "Voice of Experience". I am a HUGE advocate of immediate and decisive ultimatums for WW's. If you have a M worth saving ... ULTIMATUMS WORK ... if your M is NOT worth saving, then you know right away.

I employed an ultimatum within minutes of discovery of my FWW's A, and it worked. As a matter of fact, my FWW (FogFree) posts here occassionally, and you can search her posts and read her own words about how effective the ultimatum was at penetrating her fog.

TC, don't listen to this non-Harley advice. It isn't the Harley method these boards are for. EVERY SITUATION IS UNIQUE.Everybody brings a different cultural upbringing, life baggage, levels of love, financial situations, etc.

Now, I blew up in classic fashion, ultimatums, threats of violence to weeping OM, made her quit her job, tossed W out three times, threw all her stuff onto the OM's porch, exposed to her family, priest, everyone, etc. But that was me and my situation and personality, etc.

People DO get through these situations, or at least can stay together long enough to amicably unwind the marriage financially, logistically, kid-wise etc.

But now I am at least seeing what the Harley method might get us to. Will I be with my W in five years? Highly doubtful. But I have three kids and a mortgage, etc., and the mature move FOR ME is to forgive, not forget, and see what the future brings.

Your mileage may vary. Everyone is different. People that preach only from their own experience are a poor sample. Steve H has seen thousands of cases. They read my W like a book and predicted everything that happened after D-day.

Just chill until your session, dude.

Mike_C2,

Feel free to offer whatever advice you see fit, but you've insulted me once too often. It is laughable to see you discount the advice of others that has actually WORKED, considering the results you describe from YOUR method.

tc may or may not have it in him to do what's necessary, and admittedly my advice is for the stronger BH's out there, so I can see where you would misinterpret what was being suggested. This tactic is for BH's who establish boundaries and then enforce them, not for those who only TALK big, but fold in the face of actual conflict.

There is just too high of a percentage of weak BH's here at MB that remain in limbo, to keep doing things the same old way and expecting different results.

Amen, Mike. TC, don't listen to the hotheads; let Steve guide you out of this.

Steve's advice was to continue Plan A, and not expose anything yet.

His advice was to see if WW is willing to get more organized in our approach to healing the M.

Specifically he said:

- Get WW to agree that staying with me and having a happy healthy marriage is the ideal scenario for her.

- Once she agrees to that, express that we need to do research (MB.com, harley books, etc.) to figure out how to make that happen because clearly, we don’t currently have that capability. It is impossible for us to do this without learning, and I don’t want to pursue the impossible. This should be a zero commitment investigation into what is possible in our M.

- Tell her we need a plan and to be more organized

- Don’t barter, use respectful persuasion.

- Tell her I talked with steve and that he has some good ideas and that I think it would be good if she talked to him too


These are probably the standard answers given to every new client.

Just wave your magic wand and "get her to agree", huh? Sounds simple.


Reading is good, but I already knew that.


And what exactly do you say when she asks for specifics?


If you could get her to do what you want with "respectful persuasion", wouldn't you have already "persuaded" her to stop seeing OM?


New clients are always a good thing, I suppose.








Are you gonna deliver the ultimatum now?

Krazy,

Clearly, we are on the same page.

After what tC just posted, it seems to me like this bears repeating:

For what it's worth, TC9, if I was given an ultimatim when I was in the throes of my affair, I would have walked out the door. And my OM was married with kids and 2,000 miles away so I would not have been walking into OM's arms -- just away from my H and very likely forever. As it is, since I confessed (so my situation is different than yours) and my H and I are working together to find each other and our ENs, we have re-connected in a way that we haven't had in 8 years since our son was born. When I was in my affair, I was sure I was in the affair because my marriage was broken and not worth keeping anyway. I was terribly unahappy, my H didn't give a rat's backside about me (so I thought), and I deserved something better. Call it the fog or whatever. But if the man who I perceived as being the one who was causing my unhappiness told me to pick between him and the one I did perceive as making me happy... I would not have picked my H. I (mistakenly) saw H as being a cause of all my problems, not the solution. Why would I pick the problem and not what I thought was the fix? I would have left my H.

Anyway... My H and I are in very early stages of recovery and it's possible we may not make it. But we're trying and I'm hopeful. My experience is not gospel. It's just mine. What I've learned from the MB practices is helping me tremendously and I wanted to encourage you to stay the path you're on with Steve and MB. Just my 2-cents.

Yep.

I respect what Dr. Harley does, but nobody should forget that he is also a businessman.

TC, my suggestion would be to follow Steve's advice. HE knows what he is doing and the advice he gave you is part of a larger strategy.

I used to get real upset when he would tell people to WAIT to expose and I asked him WHY when my H and I went to his MB weekend last year.

He told me that he is a strong believer in exposure, but he wants to talk to the WS FIRST and attempt to "SELL THEM" on the prospect of a happy marriage and giving up their affair. If you have just exposed, though, the WS is less likely to even speak to him because she will be furious. So he doesn't want you to make her mad UNTIL he has had a chance to talk to her.

Now, if she still won't end her affair after he has spoken to her, then he will be "LAUNCH THAT NUKE, BABY!!!" He has even told clients to PICKET the OM's place of business and "do everything short of taking out a billboard."

So, this is his strategy.

I asked him what he wanted us to do on the forum since we are not professional counselors with access to the WS. [or the skills to do it] He said to just keep doing what we are doing and recommending exposure. Steve has the skill and training to pull this off, we don't.

EXACTLY. And that is usually what happens. It is throwing the WS into the arms of the OP, a very stupid strategy. Saying "give up the affair or the highway" to a person who is already DETACHED and completely disgusted with the marriage is very tempting, because most would choose the AFAIR.

The BS usually has no leverage whatsoever, that must be understood. Throwing them out often spells the END OF THE MARRIAGE. The WS is a person who has FALLEN OUT OF LOVE, so he/she doesn't CARE! He is more often GLAD TO GO! Goodbye!

Giving them an ultimatum when you have nothing with which to bargain is not a smart tactic. When you give people ultimatums it only works if you have something to bring to the bargain table.