My WW and I are beginning the road to recovery, but I haven't yet told her that my parents know about everything she has done. We will be going to my parents' house for Thanksgiving and I am unsure how to break it to my WW that they know, and even more unsure of how to prepare her for my parents. My parents have been supportive so far, but are very concerned and are really worried that I am going to get hurt again. They have already told me that they won't be able to get through thanksgiving if this situation is just ignored. My WW is the type that bottles her feelings up and forces you to drag them out of her. My mother on the other hand, is expecting that my WW apologize to her for hurting me and do the majority of the talking when they discuss the whole situation. It is very hard for my WW to open up to me, much less my mother, so i am expecting a stare-off.

Any advice on how to handle this?

What do YOU want?

I don't care what your mother and wife want.

There has always been a bit of a rift between my WW and mother. My WW views my mother as overprotective and has always thought that she hasn't liked her. And i guess my WW isn't the type of girl my mother would have picked for me (mother really conservative, WW not so much).

I want them to discuss this so that they can begin to build a better relationship and not have to tip-toe around this subject forever. But, given my WW's history of unwillingness to talk when confronted and my mothers expectation for an apology, I am afraid that putting the two of them in the same room right now would only further tarnish their relationship.

My WW and I have discussed her needing to improve her communication, but I don't think I can expect her to muster an apology to my mother in 3 days. I took me a while just to get her to apologize to me. On the other hand, my WW need to own up to her problems and deal with the pain she has caused.

Your top loyalty and priority is your wife.

Since you are early in recovery I would recommend that you skip Thanksgiving with your parents this year.

Make your own plans. Do something different this year.

I doubt your wife is ready to deal with this yet. And since she has not been preparing for it, and is about to be blindsided with it, I suggest that your plan is to tell her that they know -- but give her the option of doing something different this year.

I have thought of just skipping thanksgiving, but our whole relationship, she has tried to avoid this kind of conflict, it is partially what got us here. Plus, I have been an enabler, allowing her to get her own way when faced with an uncomfortable situation. While this will be extremely uncomfortable for her, it is something she needs.

You tell them both what YOU want.

If they both care about you, they will do it.

If they really only care about themselves, they won't.

I agree with Lexxy. Especially given that your WW already had issues with your mother - there is no way this doesn't turn into an ugly scene that could cause you trouble for years. Mom will understand.

A holiday just isn't the time to push a conflict avoidance lesson on her.

Nor is it respectful to your family to force a confrontation that you already know will likely not go well.

Is there a time BEFORE Thanksgiving that you can get them together for a talk? Otherwise let it go for now, skip Thanksgiving and try to set up a time for this talk specifically.

Why does your wife owe an apology to your mother?

my mother's view is that if WW can't look her in the eye and admit she was wrong, then she isn't worth keeping as a wife. I agree that this needs to happen, but given WW's difficulty opening up, I just don't see it happening this soon.

But, skipping thanksgiving will also sour the relationship because my mother will view my WW as a shallow person who only cares about herself and isn't a big enough person to face the music. (she told me this earlier this morning)

if your wife is a new Former WW (FWW) and you are just on the road to recovery then frankly its unrealistic to expect an apology to your parents right now. She will just be beginning to understand the harm she has done to you and her.
Its not that she shouldn't its just probably not wise to expect this right now..

Though I understand your mum being concerned for you its YOUR m and YOUR wife ... hopefully a FWW by the way .... and what your mum thinks should happen is really not the point.

I hope you are going to M counsellor? Following the MB path? If so its important to talk this over. No ambush or arm twisting .. that could result in putting back recovery big time.

Discuss this with your wife. Express YOUR feelings ... be honest but not brutal about what you feel. who knows your FWW may surprise you and want to say sorry but not know how .... maybe if its the case you could get them together BEFORE thanksgiving .. wayyyy less stress then. ..... or there's the phone...

If its simply not the time for this then you need to get your mum on board with MB and the M counsellor... explain its a proven well thought out recovery strategy that has the best chance to give you the happy M you want. And you need her support to follow the process. no hijacking.

your M and your wife ... your mum I feel needs to accept YOU are doing the running on this one. ..(poor mum is probably hurting for you so give her a cuddle)

all the best

AW

no time before thanksgiving, we live in another city and will be with WW's family Wed night and early on Thursday. I could get them on the phone, but my mother doesn't want to do that, she thinks WW needs to deal with this face-to-face. My mother did say that she could go through thanksgiving day and put on a good show when the rest of the family is around if there would be time for them to talk on friday, but i don't know if I want to go through thanksgiving with a HUGE elephant in the room.

WW doesn't owe my mother an apology, but my mother says she needs to see some remorse from my WW for my sake, whatever that means. I have tried to explain to her that wayward spouses often never apologize, or that their apologies are often weak or unsatisfying, but she doesn't want to hear any of it. She has always thought WW is a selfish person, and to her this is just another selfish thing, either not apologizing to her, or not coming to thanksgiving all together. So, lose-lose for me.

Your wife is not responsible for your mom's feelings. Your mom is responsible for your mom's feelings. Your wife is responsible for herself and for mending the marriage.

Sure, I get your wife hurt you. But, your wife isn't part of your mom's nuclear family, is she? Are you still part of your mom's nuclear family? Did you ask your mom to give you her opinion on your wife?

What's more important to you, possible letting your mom make your wife go through the ringer or being in recovery with your wife?

If your wife has always been emotionally withdrawn, what makes you think she's going to change in 3 days? My husband was also emotionally withdrawn from me-for our entire relationship (over a decade). It took him 9 months of therapy before he was comfortable opening up.

ETA: Yes, it IS a lose-lose situation when your parents force you to choose between your "now" family (your wife) or them. But, make a decision and stick with it, and it will be very freeing for you. It will no longer be lose-lose.

Who cares about your mother's view?

You are married to your wife not your mother. The more you type the more you come across as a man who let's his mother dictate his life.

I've tried to explain this, but she doesn't seem to understand. She says that "this is not the time for all of us to make WW feel that we all care for her, it is the time for her to start showing remorse to everyone she has hurt."




We aren't going to a counselor yet. I have tried to discuss it, but WW has flat out said no every time, but I'm still working on it. I am planning on telling her that my parents know tonight, then i guess we'll go from there.




I've tried to explain this to her, but she won't listen. If there a specific article on this site that illustrates why a wayward spouse is unable to apologize for a while. Right now my mother just views is as selfishness on the part of my WW.


Thanks for all the help everyone

Have you talked to your wife about this yet????

You need to consult her and her alone.

yes, I am married to my wife, and my loyalty is with her, but I am close with my family and do not want to lose them or make them feel alienated. I won't do anything to please them at the expense of my relationship with my wife, but I would like to find a solution that can help them understand where i am right now.

Start here; Radical Honest LINK

Then read this;POJA LINK

she doesn't know that my parents know yet, so far she hasn't asked, but i get the feeling that she is assuming that I have told them. I am going to tell her that they know tonight, and then we can discuss when she wants to do. The problem with that is that she has always tried to avoid conflict, so letting her off the hook with this is just another conflict she successfully avoided. In order for us to recover, she needs to stop doing this. I guess I am struggling with when is the right time to get tougher on her and not allow her to avoid her problems.

Why have you keep the truth from your W that your parents know? Do your parents know she doesn't know they know? It is a bit much that your mother would expect much from W and she only has 3 days to process it. My FWH was dreading facing my family but he was willing. Unfortunately you are now springing this on WW at the last minute. I think you should talk to your mother and tell her that if you and W are going to attend then she needs to leave it alone for now. Tell your wife after the holiday is over and let the elephant sit on the couch another week. If your mom gets ticked...too bad. Explain to her that your wife comes first whether she likes it or not and you don't want to throw her into a lion's den...that will not help recover your marriage at all.

Your mom doesn't have to be all gaga over your W during the visit but tell her you expect her to be civil without any underhanded comments aimed at WW. If mother can't do it, then don't go. Once the holiday is over, TELL YOUR WIFE YOUR PARENTS KNOW. Maybe you can revisit the reconciliation of your parents and W before Christmas...but it's too late for Thanksgiving.

Your marriage is in a fragile place.

I think it is YOUR role to protect it -- even from your mother.
Frankly, your mothers needs or wants do not matter. You need to do a better job of standing up for your wife and marriage.

I would tell your Mom that this topic is off limits on Thanksgiving day. I would tell Mom that handling the extended family situation will be discussed in marriage counselling and whatever strategy or decisions that come from that will be jointly agreed to.

Mom doesn't get to dictate or judge how remorseful FWW is.

TC, you need to tell your wife right away about this and explain to her that your mother is very upset at the way she treated you. You can't force her to apologize to your mother, you can only suggest it and hope she does the right thing.

If I were in your shoes, I would not be willing to forgo my family holiday celebrations just because my spouse is a coward.

My H told me he did not want to face my family after his affair. I explained that I WAS NOT WILLING TO GIVE UP ONE MORE GD THING BECAUSE OF HIS THOUGHTLESS SHENANIGANS AND HE COULD EITHER ACT LIKE A MAN AND FACE MY PARENTS or sit home alone and be a coward. I was not willing to be FURTHER punished for my husband's crime and was not willing to forfeit my family because of his cowardice.

Fortunately, he faced it like a man instead of a weasel and apologized to my family for mistreating me. He now has very close relationships with my mother and sister. They greatly respect him for doing that.

I would suggest you tell your W right away. And your mother does not get to decide how your W acts. That is entirely up to your wife.

Geeez -- especially since you are springing this on FWW at the last minute.

Let your Mom know that you are guilty of not preparing her, and that you will be doing so tonight...but that until you and FWW have had some time to process and work through this -- the topic is off limits.

Tell me,

What do YOU see as the best possible (and realistic) result of this meeting?

More than likely- sounds like a set up for WWIII. I feel sorry that you are here on MB- but really, you are in the best place to find help.

You and your wife need to do some communication before you address this with your family. The last thing you need to do is a bunch more LB's at this time (you know about them, don't you?)

good luck :MrEEk:

How about you stop avoiding conflict as well.

Your mom may be right, but it doesn't give her the right to intrude in your marriage by making her own selfish demands.

Stand up and tell mom, my wife and my marriage come first and that you expect her to respect that!

Do not allow others to poison your recovery.

But don't make excuses either, be honest. Let them know if your wife isn't ready to be around them yet.

Way to say, Lexi

I also agree with MelodyLane.
It is not a MB principle to protect the WS from the consequences of their A's. But it is your priority to protect your M from LB's.

I think you have to be the "stand up guy" here and insist that your family does not pile on WS (if you attend the holidady). Hopefully she will see that you are determined to do what is right to help the M. Insted of what may feel good/revengful at the time.

If she is not totally selfish/fogged see will see this.

Have you given any info on the marriage? How long have you been married? What about past A's? Any children? That information will be helpful to the people on this DB.

guilty as charged. That is another reason our marriage is in the state it's in.

Glad to know I'm not the only one who gave this speech.


Mine did the same Mel. If he hadn't I don't think I would have ever looked at him the same again or had much hope of recovery...own your own [censored].

Totallyconfused,

I am going to start this post off by ripping you a new one.

Under what model is it correct to be dishonest with your W?

Under what model is it correct to ambush your W?

Under what model is it correct to throw your W under the bus that is your Vengeful mother?

I can go on, but I will stop with these questions. You have FAILED your W big time. I know she is the WS, but YOU have decied to recover this marriage and apparently she has agreed to do so as well. IF this is the case YOU are supposed to support and protect your W as you would expect her to do with you. You have failed.

Your mother has an agenda. It is normal. She wants to protect her child. She feels you incapable of protecting yourself or that you are so weak you cannot handle what life has thrown at you. It is time you stood up for yourself and your W.

1. Tell your W that your folks know of the affair.

2. Tell your mother that she can forget a discussion or an apology from your W during Thanksgiving. It is a time for family and it is a time to giving thanks and deep discussions with your WS about her decisions and I am sure the associated guilt trip are not part of this celebration.

3. Your mother and W should talk, but YOU should control the agenda and the discussion. These women are important in your life and it is your job as the son and the husband to make sure both understand where they stand in your life.

4. I would STRONGLY recommend you read Harley's four rules for a good marriage, and one of them is protection. I would also strongly recommend that you read about "radical honesty" and the concept of the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA. You should NOT be going to your folks unless it is POJA'd before hand.

5. It is time you stood up and become a man that both women can respect and that just may mean that neither is happy with you. You can acknowledge your mothers need to protect and possibly need for revenge, but you MUST understand that you must protect your W from that very thing. It is time you got honest, you took control, and you decide what is important in your life, and I would urge you to consider integrity in your dealings with both women to be the starting point.

Your mother needs to know that you don't have your head where the sun don't shine, but she also needs to know that you value your vows to your W, you value your marriage, and you are and will fight to preserve this marriage as long as your W is willing to do her part. You need to express to your W that at sometime, SOON, she and your mother need to talk and lay down the weapons, you may have to mediate this discussion.

These are the two most important women in your life, it is time they KNOW you understand this and you will in fact stand up to both of them because of it.

Now get to work being the son and husband you are supposed to be.

God Bless,

JL

My husband called and apologized to my parents.

I think this is a very important step in recovery - not MARRIAGE recovery per se, but PERSONAL recovery of self respect.

Perhaps your wife can say a Thanksgiving Blessing:

Thank you Dear Lord for this family and for their forgiveness

First off, your FWW owes an apology to everyone she hurt and that includes her inlaws. Adultery affects more than the spouse's involved.

Secondly, the more you describe your mom, the more I see my own. I can totally empathize with you on this. I once missed Christmas with my mom for completely legitimate reasons. To punish me, she wisked my brother off on a ski vacation, didn't call or tell me where she went so I could call her Christmas day and when I arrived the next day (to spend the rest of the week until New Years), she got on the phone to every single human being she has ever known to tell them what a horrible daughter I was. This was in 1995 and she still brings it up. It was the last Christmas I ever left my own house and let me say I have bigger issues with Christmas now than Scrooge.

Anyway, if your mother is anything like mine, she wants control of the whole situation and the rest of you are her pawns. This is manageble under ordinary circumstances, but yours isn't an ordinary circumstance. Skip Thanksgiving. Send your regrets. Suffer her dramatics for the next 6 months or so - eventually they talk about it less - and realize that THIS TOO is just another consequence of the A. It's actually not the worst one.

Signed, A Surviving Delinquent Adult Daughter who Failed to Show up at Mom's House on the Actual Christmas day :RollieEyes:

that last part could start World War III since I doubt they forgive WW for anything at this point. No food fights at the table.

thanks, i needed that.




you're right, i am not not doing my part as a good H with this situation. I know I have failed my W in this case and should have told her on wednesday when I first talked to my parents. But, since that is now behind me, all i can do now is figure out the best way forward. When I started this thread, I was already planning on telling my wife that my parents know tonight. I came here to try to figure out a way to avoid ambushing her any more than I already have.

It's called Radical Honesty...........It's a must!

how exactly does the Policy of Radical Honesty fit with the Trust but Verify attitude that BSs need to have during recovery?

FWIW, I would not have been interested in a marriage to a weasel who wouldn't apologize to my parents. The notion that I should have to reject my own supportive family to accomodate someone's cowardice is unacceptable. NO CAN DO.

It is not out of line to expect that your wife should do what it takes to repair the damage to her relationship with your mother. Being a coward does nothing to help her recovery.

While your parents should not be allowed to mistreat your wife, nor should your WS be allowed to separate you from your parents just so she doesn't have to face them. You have suffered enough!

You only afford as much trust as the WS warrants until it is SAFE to be radically honest in all areas.

However, there was absolutely no reason EVER to not tell her that your mother knew. It can only work against you.

tc9,

Are you still planning to tell your wife tonight? Unless I misread, you just told your parents about WW's A last Wed? Why then? Was part of you hoping they would lay into W as punishment on your behalf?

yes




last wed was a tough day for me, and WW's mother and sister were becoming less and less help, so i needed someone else to talk to. The reason i waited to long to tell my parents was because i was worried they would never forgive my wife. The last thing i ever wanted is for them to punish her on my behalf.

When i say that we just started recovery, i really mean JUST STARTED as in Saturday.

tc9,

How does trust and verify work with Radical Honesty? The way I did it was to verify in front of my FWH. Check his phone, the computer, the trashes...do my by-then compulsive route in front of him and own this was my thing.

What I needed. About me.

And I did it less and less over time...so commiting to a schedule...NC was put into place just this past Saturday? Checking daily is not unreasonable, even with her commitment to acting transparent. In a month you might go to twice weekly; in two months, once a week. And stay at once a week for six months. Then go to once a month for another year, then to twice a year, which is where I am now, four years later.

The honesty is that you state you will be checking--your job in your half of the marriage is to know reality. How blind trust isn't reality in marriage...though we are taught otherwise.

And as for telling your WW that you informed your family of reality, which was before NC, correct? You state what you did not as an excuse, as real explanation...here was my thinking...and how following the rules of marriage, recoverying from infidelity--all of this is new, some really counterintuitive--and you're doing your best, each day, and your desire to do better.

Called amends...you own what you did, why you did it, and how and why you won't do it again. Kind of trailblaze exampling for those on your team.

Thing about understanding a spouse's fog is how intent we must be to see and act clearly. Make clarity your goal and the rest will follow.

My two cents.

LA

Quick question,

Is your W still working with OM?

Thanksgiving is going to be ackward no matter what. If your wife doesn't want to go are you willing to go without her? Do you have children?

They are newlyweds.

Totallyconfused,

Radical honest is not BRUTAL honesty. It is honesty delivered but not to hurt, but help. YOu cannot avoid hurting your W with some of this news, but she needs to know whose side you are on.

I agree with Mel that your W should stand up and apologize to everyone she hurt, but she do it from her heart and not because a gun is at her head. You all started recovery just Sat. my observations on this site indicate that while a WS may be truly sorry and regretful for what they have done, they take days/weeks/months to process all that they have done. Some never even bother.

I think expecting a full airing out of all of the issues with your mother and a full apology to your mother and the rest of your family will require some time and for YOU to build some bridges and some boundaries to protect your W, yourself and yes your mother. It appears that none of this has been done yet, and given the short time scale I can understand that it has not.

You cannot expect your family to act as if "nothing happened" at Thanksgiving, but you should also know what your W is willing to do and say before you throw her into this situation. If she is willing to apologize and even discuss things with your mother fine, but you set the boundaries for the discussion with both of them.

I know this is uncharted territory for you, but you MUST become the head of your family now. You must broker a situation that your family can handle and your W can handle.

You will find I like many here are not a big fan of protecting people from the consequences of their actions. Yet, given how new this information is to your family, given that recovery is new, and given that your W is not clued in as to who you have talked to, YOU must act and you MUST control this situation until some healing, clear thinking, and recommitment are well underway.

It is time to stand up, and man up. If for some reason your mother doesn't fully get on board,solicit help from your father if he is in the picture and in the know.

You are not trying to pull people apart, you are trying to put things together. Envision if you will, you putting pieces of fissile material together. If you exceed critical mass, you have a chain reaction and complete radioactive melt down, with associated death and damage. If you do it carefully and in a controled manner, you can make sure critical mass is NOT achieved and thus you make a very dangerous (to your marriage) situation platable if not complete safe.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

no children, only been married a few months.

WW does not work with OM anymore, but they still work at the same place. WW has since transfered out of OM's department.


My family and WW's family know I am using this site, so i changed names in case they have been watching what I have been posting. Sorry, didn't intend to deceive anyone here, just trying to be careful not to lose my only really good source of advice.

Well they can still have kids lol. I'll take that as a no kids then.

If wife agrees to go then tell your mother the A is not a topic for discussion and you will leave if she can't behave. Tell your wife you will leave if your mom or any other family members cross the line.

If wife doesn't go, will you go without her? I'm sure you want to see your family but not sure how festive the day will be if your mind is on WW. Or will you a little bit happy to have a break from WW even if it's just for the day?

if WW doesn't want to go, we'll just spend that time with her family. Her mother and sisters have known for much longer, and she has spoken with them about it.

TC,

That is a good solution but it does not change what you must do for your W and your family. You must be the one to lead the parade of recovery and that is setting down YOUR boundaries on what you expect from everyone. They may not like it, but I think in the long run you will gain respect from your family, your W, and self-respect as well.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Please note that a good leader is out front, not in the back pushing. You set the goals, you set the boundaries and you support her in meeting these goals in a way that you two POJA.

Well I guess you won't know what WW says until you clue her in tonight...although I can guess. You should spend Christmas with your family no matter what.

I definitely agree. If she honestly decides that she isn't up to facing my family yet (and i think that will be the case), I am still not going to let her avoid it forever.

Well, I told my wife that my parents know about her affair tonight, and it didn't go well. She was very angry and told me that she could not trust me anymore, and expected to find out tomorrow that even more people know about the affair. She said the things with my parents would never be the same and that she can't face them at thanksgiving. I can't blame her for being angry at me for not telling her that they know until today, but she is also angry that I told them at all. I tried to explain that I needed to tell them because I needed someone to just listen. As it stands now, it looks like we aren't going to my parents for thanksgiving, which is fine. Now, I need to figure out a way to just get my wife over her anger, yet again. I really screwed this up, huh?

tc, you didn't do anything wrong. Maybe you could have told her sooner, but that is not a big deal. She is angry because she is naturally embarrassed about what she did. She is the one who did something wrong, NOT YOU. Don't let her turn this around and make you the bad guy.

Its a crying shame she put you in this position, isn't it? If she hadn't had an affair, there would have been no reason to have to go to your family for support.

Suggest to her that she owes your family an apology after she apologizes for puttin you in this position.

I know, but I haven't done my part as a good H to be honest with her and avoid LBs. Right now she is angry that I told them, and angry that I waited so long to tell her. I'll apologize for waiting to tell her, but not for telling them in the first place.

TC,

Your W's response is normal, but her behavior is that of a petulant child. You say you have not been married long. If you expect to be married much longer I think you need to understand something, not everything bad that happens in this marriage will be your fault, nor your responsibility to fix.

I think we have a case in point.

I think I would look her in the eye, and say "what did you expect me to do, when you have an affair, lie to me, and almost destroy our marriage, just stand there MUTE? I really couldn't go to my W for help could I?" Of course you needed people around you to help. She will as well, and so far you have decided to do just that. She needs to understand this.

I don't know how old you are, but you seem to have several women you need to learn to stand up to. You don't have to be mean or rude or disrespectful, but you MUST LEARN to defend your boundaries and state your expectations to both of these women.

God Bless,

JL

I have prepared an email for my wife telling her my opinions of how our horrible discussion went last night. I know email is not the way to deal with problems in your marriage, but she quicker on her feet than I am, more articulate, and always gets me flustered to where I lose my train of thought that I have found it better that I lay out my position in writing before we really get into it and I forget entirely what I wanted to day.

so, here it is. I would like any advice you guys have, I am really lost at this point.

quick background: WW and I started recovery over the weekend, but I had not yet told her that my parents know about the A, and we are are scheduled to go to their house for thanksgiving dinner. I told my wife that my parents know last night, and she responded with anger (expected) over the fact that I did not tell her sooner, but also for the fact of telling my parents in the first place. My parents have pledged their full support for our marriage, and I told her that, but she says that thing will never be the same and that she can't face them at thanksgiving. She then refused to talk anymore, and just went to bed.

bump,

I really need advice on this one, thanks.

TC,

No you don't! It is just fine. It states your feelings, your position, your goals. It is well considered and it is the truth as you see it.

Will she be mad? Perhaps! Will she think about it? Probably but don't expect an immediate turn around. She has some growing up to do.

I say send just what you have written.

God Bless,

JL

JL - thanks for all the help these last few weeks. I know I haven't done things close perfectly, but without you and the other members here, I think i would be much worse off.

I sent the email.



I'm sure she'll be mad, but she was already mad to begin with, so not much to lose there.



Hopefully she'll think long and hard about what I said. I have grown to learn over the last 7 years with her never to expect a quick turn around.

the problem I am facing with my family is that they are expecting a quick turn around. I try to tell them that people in my wife's position often take months to fully realize the impact of their actions, but their feeling is that every day that goes by without her showing true remorse and a willingness to deal with the consequences head on, shows more and more of her true character as a person that doesn't care about who she hurts, and only cares about herself. It is hard for me to argue with that.

I really like your letter, and I believe it states the truth perfectly. I am a little galled, though, that you and your family are expected to endure further punishment to accommodate her adultery and her avoidance of the consequences. I would not be willing to accommodate any such thing.

I agree that is isn't right that my family suffer because of her unwillingness to face the consequences, but at the same time, I failed my wife by not telling her the truth long ago. Giving her 3 days notice before she has to face my family is not doing my job to protect her. Their relationship was already not greatest, so she is expecting the worst. If she is unwilling to go at thanksgiving, she will need to at least call them on the phone in the near future and own up to her actions.

Well, bless your heart for being so empathetic totallyConfused9, however, please don't feel that you failed to protect your wife regarding this...You did NOT...Hopefully she will one day soon wake up and see that she owes you an apology for putting you in such a terrible position...I'm sure that you didn't relish going to your parents with that information - I'm sure that was very painful, embarrassing, etc for you...She put you in a horrible, horrible position...She disrespected both you and your parents...Bear in mind that I am telling you all this as a FWW myself...I HATE that I put my husband, Mr. Wondering, in the positions that I did and I have apologized repeatedly for it...I pray that she gets to that point soon...

Mrs. W

i would love to be able to bring her to this site so that she could hear from people like you and know that she is not alone in her feelings. But, i know that if i do that i will lose my only reliable source of sound advice. this place is such a good resource, it is a shame that only one of us is able to use it. Plus, even if i brought her here, she probably would not post. She is the type that would never take advice from random people in the internet. She won't even take advice from her own mother. she clearly has some issues to work out other than this affair. I just wish i knew how to help her.

TC,

What many like your W fail to understand that there is a difference between "taking" advice and "considering" advice and then making a decision.

Someone posting here is offered many views of things, different takes on things, completely different positions all based on some sound thoughts by Dr. Harley. The basis is sound the decisions have to be made by the person being spoken to. In this case it is you. If your W came here it would be her.

Ultimately it is YOU and it is your W that have to make decisions concerning the marriage and how it is going to be. Advice is just different perspectives on addressing the issues.

Perhaps someday your W will see this. If she does her relationship with her mother, your mother, you, and anyone who actually cares for her will change.

God Bless,

JL

I hope so, but right now I am afraid that "someday" will never come. I just wish I knew how to get through to her, but she seems so determined to deal with this A exactly the way she has dealt with problems since she was 2 yrs old, by running away from her problems by shutting out everyone around her and internalizing everything.

I am going to take a middle road here. I think that there is a lot of merit in what iam was saying.


Tc seems caught between two strong women...women who may be very alike. While I understand that in an ideal world, tc's wife "should" apologize to his parents, I also see big problems in a marriage where a spouse's mother believes that she is owed an apology by her son's wife. Sorry, that is taking motherly love too far, and that has probably been an issue in the marriage. It's not about caring; it's about control. TC's mother needs to step back and let her son handle things, and take her cue from him. It is never, ever a good idea to let parents steer the marriage ship. All she is doing is causing tc additional stress, which he does not need.

These family of origin issues are always far more complicated than can be conveyed on a forum.

That being said, for my part I did apologize to my MIL. We had a good relationship before and we continue to have a good relationship now. She let me know that she was in my corner completely....as long as I stayed married to her son, that is. The implication was that if I chickened out of recovery, if I didn't stick by my husband while he was having a difficult time, all bets were off. Her concern, and mine, was our children coming from a broken home.

Fair enough.

TC, if you are serious about recovery, you will let your wife know that you support her with regard to your parents. If the affair is over, no more surprises about who knows what. Your wife is your first priority. If she feels supported, she may eventually feel safe enough to apologize. But it is up to you to defuse the tension between your parents and your wife. The best way to do this is to get your parents to step off. This is not their fight. Their job is to support you - period.

Yes, they have fought over my time and loyalty for years. My mother as gotten used to the fact that I am not hers anymore and doesn't put pressure on us to spend a ton of time with my side of the family, but at the same time, she isn't the most welcoming to my wife when we are around. My wife usually never wants to spend time with my family because she gets a vibe that my mother doesn't like her. When we are with them, she hardly ever engages them in anything more than small talk. So, you are correct, the issues between them started way before the A.



As far as thanksgiving goes, hopefully we will be able to have a productive discussion tonight and decide together what our plans are.

However, it is very important to me that as a part of our recovery, that my wife and mother make amends and start to build a more meaningful relationship. I am very close with my family and need my wife to feel comfortable with them.

An understandable need. Thing is, you are dealing with a relationship between your wife and mother that wasn't on a good footing before. Now, with her affair, it is only more uncomfortable for both of them.

You can't change other people's feelings, and you can't make them act in ways that you would like. What you can do is conduct yourself in ways which will encourage better behavior from those who care about you. You can start by being a much stronger presence than you are.

The first thing is priorities - yours. I still say that your wife must be made to feel, through your actions, that she is your first priority. Your mother has to understand that you love her, but the issues in your marriage are your issues, not hers. Her job is to support you in whatever decisions you make. If you have chosen to recover your marriage, your mother must welcome your wife. Your mother does not get to decide what your wife ought to do. That way lies disaster.

You can't afford to look weak to either of these women, and I think that you do. Your wife will sense weakness and use it as an excuse to avoid your parents or to be uncomfortable around them. Your mother will use your weakness as an excuse to barge into your marriage and tell you what your wife ought to do. Look at what you have written here:


I will be blunt and tell you that if I were your wife I would feel that you are letting your mother run your marriage.

Your mother is way, way, way out of line. She sounds like someone who is used to running the show - a very strong woman. In order to avoid confrontation, your wife has decided to retreat.

Who is running your marriage? You or your mother?

If you strengthen your own position, in time I believe that you will find that the relationship between your wife and parents will mend. But you must take the lead, even if you have to grab it out of your mother's hands.

I understand your desires to have your wife make your marriage right.

I'm just curious, if family is so important to you, why did you choose your wife? Wouldn't you have been better served to find someone that meshed with your family better? Someone that held the same ideas? Why didn't you deal with this conflict before you got married?

Why would you choose to marry an emotionally unavailable person? Why did you ignore this huge red flag?

Perhaps, once you figure this stuff out for yourself, you might be able to better deal with the tug between your non-nuclear family (your parents) and your family that you have now (your wife).

Your recovery, now, is about you. Not about your wife, your mom, and holidays. You need to heal yourself, and your wife needs to heal herself.

pk,

I think you have diagnosed my problem perfectly. I have not been a strong person to either my wife or my mother. I am more the type of person who always tries to make everyone around them happy. As you might have guessed, that leaves me as the only unhappy one. Since this has started I have tried to become stronger for both my wife, and to my mother, but I am finding it difficult. But, I do feel I am doing a little better every day.

My wife and I decided to skip thanksgiving with my family and have a face-to-face with them on some later date. Here is the email I sent my parents. I know email isn't the ideal method of communication in situations like these, but I tend to lose my train of thought when discussing this stuff with people, so I found email a better way for me to get to all the points I want to make.

You have complained about WW being a conflict avoider.
Do you see the irony?

You have this trait too. You also seem rather passive-aggressive. You can bite and snipe via email, but can't address issues face-to-face.

These are some things you need to address and work on for your personal recovery.

I am fully aware that I am a conflict avoider, and am working on correcting that.




I have been working on the face-to-face, but I always seem to forget the points that I really want to make. Lately I have used email to state where I stand, and then have the face-to-face discussion.

You may not be the only unhappy one: As the old saying goes, if you try to please everyone, you wind up pleasing no one, least of all yourself.

I am glad that you have made this discovery. You can work from here!


I would strongly recommend that the face to face occur at your home, on your turf. A nice dinner that your wife has cooked, for example.


I think that communication is the key. If email works for you, then that is the best thing. Remember, this must be about you, first and foremost.

I have several comments about your email. I know you already sent it, but I see some issues. First: you are trying to take a stronger approach, yet what are you doing? Asking your parents to lie for you about the reason you are not there. Asking your mother's opinion of whether you should call your aunt.

That is a no-go. It is not what strong people do. Strong people do things for themselves. Strong people do not concern themselves with what other people think, but instead concern themselves with acting properly in accordance with their morals and principles.

You and your wife have been invited somewhere. Call your aunt. Tell her that you and your wife have some personal issues to attend to that will prevent you from attending. Thank her for her hospitality. End of call. Do not concern yourself with what people will think.

I'll tell you a little secret: people may talk briefly, but at heart people are very self-centered, and your issues will soon take a backseat to theirs. So, no worries. Save your energy.


You have just made a DJ (disrespectful judgement) toward your mother. Do not assume that you know what she is thinking. In fact, do not worry about what she is thinking at all. Just act in accordance with your own principles.

Look, I can tell that you are a good son and a good husband. For your own sake you need to continue to take steps to strengthen your position. If you act strongly, your family and your wife will treat you accordingly. You are taking the first steps now which is good.

I would not put this meeting with your family off for more than a week or two. It is very important for your wife to face your family. The longer she waits, the worse it will be. It is critical for her to show you that you are important to her, and she can show this by acting like a contrite spouse in front of your family. Admitting right away that she is wrong, and not becoming defensive will take the wind out of your mother's sails. It is also very healing! She needs to understand this. She also needs to understand that you are there to support her.

Your mother needs not to say much, but to listen more. The less she says, the better. Your wife needs to put on her big girl pants and take the lead. You have to have her back. Hold her hand. Put your arm around her as she talks.

It's a fine line, but it can be walked. It could be the start of a better relationship.

I will be hoping for the best for you!

TC,

I agree with PK. I know that you are conflict avoiding. However, your reason for not messing up everyone's Thanksgiving is sound and prudent.

PK is right, it is your call to make to your Aunt, you make it. Not your W, not your mother, YOU MAKE THE CALL and don't lie. You don't have to go into details, but simply say circumstances right now make it impossible for us to come to Thanksgiving. Please accept our apologies. We will see you... ANd then thank her again for the invitation.

Your mother is trying to protect you, because she feels you are not capable. However, even if she did, I think any woman on this site would want their child to NOT be hurt the way you have.

My suggestion is that YOU and your W come up with a plan to address the issues in the marriage, and yes the A is one of them, but not the only item on the list. You then tell your mother of your plans to address this marriage, you don't invite any comments, just tell her your goals, your plans, and ask for their support. And you also thank your folks for the support they have shown you so far.

As for your W, you tell her what you are going to do with respect to your family, but you expect her to haul some water in this deal as well. IF she feels she cannot, then perhaps you will need to make a decision that will address that issue.

It is time you started to express your feelings, your goals, and your need for successful achievement of these goals, and the women in your life can either climb aboard to stand on the side as the train pulls out. You want both of them in your live, you don't want either of them running your life.

Just remember this following phrase that I use when dealing with my family.
Conversely, noone would run YOUR LIFE like you would/could/should run it.

God Bless,

JL

Well, we got through thanksgiving pretty well. My W and I decided not to go see my family on Thursday and my mother was pretty upset. Instead, we proposed that we meet with my parents for lunch later in the weekend to clear the air.

My W was a wreck leading up to the lunch, but my parents were very non-confrontational and just expressed how much the want both of us to be happy and that they will always be there for us. They also talked a little about how we can learn from this experience and make our relationship better then it was before. Things went as well as i possibly could have expected.

Now, for the bad news

For a week and half there had been no contact between my W and the OM and I thought that we were doing pretty well. I even started to notice signs of withdrawal in my W over the holiday from the lack of contact. So in my mind, things were going as they should at the beginning of recovery until the OM emailed my W this morning. they have since emailed back and forth a few times today. Nothing in the emails is even close to the flirting that took place before, just general "how was your thanksgiving" and "hope everything is going well for you at home" kind of talk. But, I have no doubts that this will lead right back to where we started.

the OM always mentions that he will stop contacting her if she says so, but she never does. The tells him that her mind is full of confusion whether she hears from him or not.

So, I am not too sure what to do at this point. I cannot give up my email access because it is the only thing i have to spy with. One thing she has not agreed to yet is the need for a no contact letter, the thinks it is "unnecessary" since she says she just told the OM herself that things were over and not to contact her anymore. Either that was a lie, or he is not obeying her request. Either way, it is apparent that she cannot pull herself away from this.

I saw a gap in your posts, but it seems to me like you already confronted OM and told him to stay away from your W.

JL is on here and will give better advice than I, but I would expose to his W if you haven't done so and get another set of eyes on the communication. No contact is key.

Of course, I'm no model, I was the tazmanian devil on my d-day. And I now regret some of that acting out. But maybe it was needed to get to no contact.

OR, since you have his email address, you could just send him an email like:

"I know you have continued to contact my wife this week. I will know if you do so again. If I see one more sign of contact -- phone, text, email or any other method of communication whatsoever -- I am going to immediately (dire threat of exposure, work, wife, whatever)."

the OM's wife already knows, i exposed to her and and my W's mother and sisters a few weeks ago.

He has since told my W that he married his W for the wrong reasons, but that he was going to stay with her because of their two young children. It almost seems like he wants to get caught again so that maybe she will leave him so he can have a clearer conscience (if that makes sense in some twisted way).

In the emails today he has mentioned that he is worried that he might run into me one day because i might still be following them/him. Maybe i scared him when i confronted the two of them in the restaurant.

I have thought of contacting the OM's W to get her to install a keylogger so that both sides can see what is going on. They have been deleting every email sent and received since i blew things up a few weeks ago. But, the only other time i talked with the OM's W was when I told her about the A, and I asked her not to talk to her H until i could give her more of the details. She went to her H anyway, so i am not sure i can trust her to not over-react. If she tells him i have email access or a keylogger, he will tell my wife and then i am really in the dark.

Okay, the A is not over. If it was and your WW was truly sorry she would not but you through the pain of further contact with OM. You are lidding yourself if you think this is over and in NO WAY would I be expecting your parents to welcome your WW until this A is DEAD and BURIED!

TC,

It is time to put the match to this bomb. Contact continues. I would ask your W tonight if she has been in contact with OM? Ask her if he has sent her emails. You can look her in the eyes and say, "I KNOW your lying to me by the way you answered this question. I can see it in your face." Call OM's W tell her they are still in contact, right in front of your W. If OM answers tell him to put his W on the phone or there will be he$$ to pay.

Then sit down with your W and have a real heart to heart with her. It may be time for you to go to plan B, and that means SHE moves out in my book.

You have done plan A, but eventually plan B is necessary and Dr. Harley states that the biggest mistake people make is waiting too long to go to plan B.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Good grief...there is still contact? :RollieEyes: No point in having you parents and WW try to reconcile and she's still in contact with OM. Be prepared to laydown the law with plan B if your WW doesn't end contact.


If OM's wife wants to stick her fingers in her ears don't blow your source of info because she will blab.

Not enough.

Is he physically afraid of you?


Well.....very difficult news to sit on for a spouse. I lasted about 8 minutes, even with K and JL counseling patience....

To me, the snooping is just a knife in the gut until you get a commitment of no contact and an open life. My W gave me her passwords, and wrote a NC letter. And she STILL called the guy in the few weeks after (to see if he was "ok")

If you haven't you have a golden opportunity to get some counsel with the Harley's BEFORE you do broad exposure, and they'll tell you how to expose, etc.

Every email between them sets the affair feelings back to square one.

Plus, didn't I see that they work together? My W quit her job D-day plus one, or I was going to the boss. That was effective.

Maybe it's just me but I have to ask. Why does your wife still have an e-mail account?

In my sitch the cell phone was destroyed and e-mail cancelled on D-Day. She also got the GPS stapled to her forehead.

Please tell me she no longer has a cell phone?

she uses her work email.


She still has her cell phone, but I check the number she talks to every day. She hasn't used it to call him since D-day.

Yes, these are what an alcoholic would call "business drinks." They have the exact same effect. Your wife is still engaged in an AFFAIR and is getting her needs met by the OM.



Was the point of spying just to SPY then? Sort of like voyuerism? What WAS the point if not to use the intel to bust up the affair?

Refresh my memory, please. Is this a workplace affair? is the OM married? And has the affair been exposed to the OMW and to the workplace?

Then you need to EXPOSE AGAIN and let her know the affair is STILL GOING.



OM are usually pansies, I would plan to visit him tomorrow AFTER you expose to his wife again and have a come to Jesus with him. Please leave your pistol in the car.


It doesn't matter if she knows you have access to their emails. You can tell her how to install a keylogger on his computer. I doubt she would tell him that. But asking her to not say anything until you came around with more details was unrealistic.

You need to change the title of this thread to "How do I kill my WW's A". Until that happens why should you be trying to reconcile her behaviour with you parents??????

I was just thinking that earlier today, but how do i change the name of the thread? Is that something a mod has to do?


Before thanksgiving, I mistakenly thought we were in recovery, hence the title.


To refresh everyone memory, this is a workplace affair, but the OM has relocated to a different department that has no contact with my Wife's department. The OM is married and has 2 young children.

Go to your first post and edit the title there. There is a time limit on it so if there's no edit option then you will need to contact a mod.

All the best

I gotcha! So now she will be triggered every day when she goes to work. And so will you. She will stay in a perpetual state of withdrawal.

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

more.....

No contact, lifechoice http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1659249&fpart=3

Every time I read where a WS is still working with the AP I cringe because I know exactly where things are headed. I know I said this before, but I only worked 6 days a month and after I ended the A, of the 6, we maybe worked together 1 or 2. When I ended the A it brought relief and neither FOM nor I wanted the A any longer, but regardless I was hooked. Just seeing his car in the parking lot, his name on an work email, or anything related to him kept me hooked.

I never knew ahead of time if I was going to be working with him. If I pulled into the parking lot and saw his car I would feel happy and sad at the same time and if his car was not there I would feel relief and sad at the same time.

My therapist told me to journal and after I confessed the stuff in there just makes me shake my head. Now when I read the stuff I did, said, etc it makes me sick to my stomach. I honestly believed I was on my best behavior because we were not crossing any inappropriate lines or so we thought. Now I can "see" exactly what happened and how it fed my addiction to the A. All those "professional" conversations that had bits and pieces of non-professional idle chit chat, facial expressions, body language, the unnecessary walk-by's, the acknowleging everyone but him days, etc where so harmful. And then my poor H would get to hear all about it because I was being open and honest. I have no idea why he didn't leave me because of what I put him through.

In a sec I will add a snippet from my journal and a prime example of why FAP's cannot stay working together. I hadn't seen my FOM in who knows how long. Docp had recently asked for all the details of the A and I was a complete nervous wreck. When I got to work, FOM was there, I was having a really bad day and to top it off was exposed to TB by a patient. The TB deal was the straw that broke the camels back. I had a meltdown in my FOM's office and almost passed out. I asked him if I could sit for a second and that second of sitting lead to a conversation we never should have had.

We talked about Docp's and his W's reaction, how we all were coping, how stupid and weak we were etc, etc. Even sitting here now I remember the feeling I had and KNEW we should not have been having that conversation, but it was making me feel better when I felt like crap. What I didn't realize was I had just had a big dose fed to my addiction and the whole cycle started again.

Here is the snippet from my journal: (I changed names of course)

"It felt good to talk to him and clear a lot of this up. He even mentioned it was nice that we were able to talk and I feel like he meant it, not in an appropriate way, just a friendly way. (Ah, this from the person who has been avoiding talking to me forever) I felt like I was talking to my 'old friend" the way it was for years before we messed everything up. I told Docp about the whole conversation. He was ok with this conversation, but said he wouldn't be really happy if we started talking all the time. duh!!!!!! I just said I understand and didn't plan on talking to him about anything that wasn't work related."

OK, in all reality Docp was NOT OK with the conversation and told me he didn't care if I was going to faint or not I needed to crawl out of his office, not sit and chat with him. But in my happy place I honestly believed because I told Docp about the conversation it really was OK. I was completely delusional and thought because it made me feel so good, it HAD to be OK.

I had all this going on and I rarely saw my FOM, can you just imagine what is going on when people are seeing each other every day?

Anyway back to NC, I'm not sure if I simply missed it before, but it seems lately we have more who are willing to allow the WS to continue working with the AP and have a zillion and one excuses on why it's OK. I'm never surprised when they find out the A is still ongoing though because I could tell them the details of what is going on during the work day when the WS honestly feels they are on their best behavior.

Mods, thanks for the name change.

This thread used to be called "How to get WW and parents to reconcile?"

Since contact has resumed, and thus the A is not over, the old name no longer applies and I am back to square one.

Thanks for everyone's help and support.

""""OK, in all reality Docp was NOT OK with the conversation and told me he didn't care if I was going to faint or not I needed to crawl out of his office, not sit and chat with him. But in my happy place I honestly believed because I told Docp about the conversation it really was OK. I was completely delusional and thought because it made me feel so good, it HAD to be OK. """"


Lol....that is EXACTLY what my WW did....came skipping in the house one day saying she had run into OM at the store and they had a perfectly casual conversation and she had "closure". Somehow this was supposed to make me happy, even though we had alreayd been counseling with J Harley and the no contact reasoning was crystal clear.

Then I investigated amnd found they had talked by phone a few times as well. That was an interesting day.

I think the reality is, they kept pinging each other to find out if either were heading for divorce court and they could get back to fantasyland.

Mike, her post epitomizes exactly what Dr Harley says about being in a state of "perpetual withdrawal." Every time she withdrew a little she ran into him again and her feelings returned. Even when she didn't see him for awhile, she THOUGHT about the next time she would see him. Talk about going in the bar every day and staring at the beer!

So far I have told my parents, my WW's mother and sisters, and the OM's W about the affair. This was all 3-4 weeks ago. Beyond that I don't know what else to do. The OM has moved to a new department that is in a different building, so their jobs do not require them to have contact, and since the exposure, my WW has been deleting all of her emails (she uses her work account) and I am assuming he is doing the same. So, if I exposed at work, there is no evidence that they are having an affair.

How many sessions do you think I would need with the Harley's to figure out what to do next?

Have you gone to them for counseling with your situation?

TC, you do have evidence of an affair and that is what is necessary for exposure. Even so, they are still in contact. The affair is still on and you know this. You reported recent contact.

As long as they work together, which they do, she will remain in a state of perpetual withdrawal and you are looking at years more of this until contact is ended. I know it seems tempting to take the easier, softer way out, but just talk to others around here who suffered years of an on-again, off again affair. That is what you are facing by going along with her working with him.

my evidence was illegally obtained by logging into her work email account. So, I don't think I can even use that if I expose at work.

Sure you can. You also have the affairees admissions and the OMW as a witness.

From everyone's responses, it looks like I have 2 options.

1. expose the A even further.

2. go to plan B



What does everyone think? 1, 2, both?

Right now I am leaning toward plan B because I would rather my WW leave her job on her own and me force it on her. It would show me that she is truly committed to our marriage.

TC, you cannot force your wife to leave her job, but you can - and should - help things along by exposing it there. Her workplace may choose to force one of them out and that is their prerogative since they are the ones who are legally liable.

I wouldn't go into Plan B without trying that first, because that might be the very thing that kills the affair and motivates one of them to leave.

However, it is up to you to protect your boundaries, not her. It is up to you to explain to her that you are willing to stay and work on your marriage if she ends all contact with the OM. It won't work any other way. If she won't leave her job to recover your marriage, then you will know she is not committed to the recovery of your marriage. But I would leave no stone unturned before you go to Plan B. Workplace exposure is too potent of a tool to overlook.

Again, I am very concerned that you are not appropriately using the intel you gathered to bust up the affair. If you are not going to use it, there is no reason to spy on her. The point of spying is to use the intel to bust up affairs, not to entertain oneself.

You have evidence of recent contact and are not using it to help your situation.

An active wayward still in contact with the OP won't ever meet this standard. (edited to add - they may try to give you this perception in order to manipulate you)

It will take MONTHS for them to "TRULY" commit to the marriage AFTER the affair has ended.

End affair first. Then they are stuck for bit and go through withdrawal and then they begin to consider reconciliation and finally, they "snap" and wake up and "truly" commit.


Expose at work....whatever it takes to end the affair and achieve "NO CONTACT".

Everything else is moot until you achieve that.

Mr. Wondering

Should i confront my WW or the OM before workplace exposure?

When I went ahead and exposed to her family, my family, and the OM's W she was very angry and said that she feels like she doesn't know me anymore and that her trust in me is completely gone. I know this is just gas lighting on her part, but part of thinks that even though the isn't showing me the respect i deserve, that I should be the bigger person and at least tell her that I know the A is still going on and that I am contacting her work. I guess my reasoning is that if I tell what I am doing, it will take many of her arguments away before she has a chance to get angry at me for going behind her back.

forewarned is forearmed.

Besides...it only intensifies the anger because she will throw a fit BEFORE and AFTER you do what you have to do. She will undoubtedly threaten you with divorce or whatever if you do it and when you do she is more likely to follow through with it.

Nope...never...not gonna...forewarn.

Expose and then apologize like you made a stupid mistake and shoulda known better. "Ooops...my bad, I'm sorry I upset you. I had no idea it was a big secret".

Mr. Wondering

Not so. If she's using Outlook/Exchange at work, her deleted e-mail will likely be stored on the server for at least a month after she deleted it, and in fact can be restored to her mailbox via the "recover deleted e-mail" facility.

Even further, if they're using Exchange and they've set up RPC over HTTP, and you have access to her password, you can access her office e-mail from your home PC over the Internet and do the same thing.

After i confronted them having lunch a few weeks ago, they started deleting emails, and then going into the "recover deleted email" to to delete them there as well.

I do have her password and am logged into her account right now. they are emailing back and forth as we speak. This is the only way i can see what they are doing because they delete everything right away.

You are kidding, right?

Do you not absorb anything that you read here?

Never for warn that you are going to expose. It only allows the WW to do damage control and paint you as the jealous and unbalanced husband spreading lies.

How did this transfer take place at work?

Did the OM request a transfer?

Moving to avoid suspicion of him having an affair at work.

Or was this separation a result of your exposure at work?

I remember you exposed to her boss. This was wrong you exposed to far down the food chain. He is most likely looking to sweep this under the rug.

You must send exposure letters to the CEO, the Director of Human Resources, and to the Board members.

As other's have said NC will only take place if they are not allowed to work for the same company.

I do not understand you letting your fear control you. You are letting your WW have the balance of power. You are letting her call the shots.

Doing what you have been doing has been letting her paint you as the bad person and building a case to justify D'ing you. While she is out banging the OM.

are you printing hard copies???

Do you now understand that the affair has never ended? And will continue until some action is taken to stop it.

How are you getting on her email at work, and how did you find out the password? I could use that as well.

he requested it. after i exposed to his wife, i think she made him do it.



i have not yet exposed at work



you must be mistaking me for someone else.

yes

yes, after yesterday i understand it clearly.

Not that it matters because they still work at the same place, but how do you know he was transferred to another building?

her work uses Microsoft outlook web access, so you can access it from any internet connection. I just used a keylogger to get her password.

If you have access to her account, set up a rule to move a COPY of any such e-mail sent in or out to a separate folder. Then, once every few days, move the contents of the folder to a local PST.

How do you access it through the internet?

Wife told me, though i did not believe her. They work at a university, so I was able to confirm it from the staff directory on their website.

Her work has the email system set up for access outside of work. I access it the same way she does.

I have thought about doing this, but am worried about legal action being taken against me if I expose at her work. Just me logging in from another location at the same time she is logged in leaves evidence on the server that i am illegally accessing her email.

Also, i don't think there is a way to move emails off MS outlook web access without actually forwarding them to another email address.

can you explain how to do this a little further?

You don't have to say anything about the emails. You've already confronted her about the affair and she's admitted as much. Her employer doesn't need to know how you found out about it.

I wasn't planning on saying anything about the emails in my letter to the university, but if they decided to look at her email account when investigating my claim, they will see that 2 people have been logging on to the same account for a few weeks now at almost the same exact time. I am sure they would be able to put the pieces together from that.

Setting up a rule or logging into my WW's work email?

Logging into her email.

it all depends on how the email system is set up at her work.

My WW works at a university. The university uses one email system for students and faculty. It is set up so that both employees and students can access their email even when not on the university computer network. This particular university uses microsoft outlook web access to do this.

When logging into her email, my WW just goes to the university website and logs in. Once i found her password, i was able to do the same thing.

I didn't have to set up anything to be able to do this, i just got lucky i guess that her work uses an email system that can be accessed at home.

Many companies, like mine, have the ability for employees to access email from home, but this usually requires some piece of hardware that has a constantly changing password to make it more secure. If your WW's email is set up like this you are probably out of luck.

But, if she accesses her email from home in any way, you can easily install a keylogger in your computer to see what she is typing. It will even take screen shots for you.

hope this helps.

It's time to stand up and grow a pair. The more you allow this, the worse your marriage will be. You've only been married for a few months, and your WW is already cheating on you. I would do something a little more drastic. I would tell her she needs to find a new place of employment and be 100% transparent to you from now on. If she refuses, expose her to her employer (don't tell them about the illegally obtained emails), to OMW, her family, and tell her to find somewhere else to live. If she refuses to move out, file for divorce on grounds of adultery. She feels that she is in charge and that she can do whatever she wants. You need to show her that she is no longer in control, and that if she wants to stay married, then she needs to follow your rules. If she doesn't, then you get divorced.

It is a win-win situation. If she backs down, gets another job, cuts all contact w/ OM, and goes to MC to start working on your relationship, it is a win. If you get a divorce, you don't have to suffer through a horrible marriage where you are walked all over by this terrible woman who is cheating just months after marrying you - another win. Either way, you get control back of your life which is a definite win.

Do you think if you just wait around until this thing eventually dies out that she won't just do it again in the future? You will be in for an endless cycle of emotional abuse from her unless you stand up for yourself now. Your parents don't like her because up to this point, she's been horrible to you.

By the way, I was in a similar situation to yours UNTIL I MANNED UP AND SET UP A MEETING WITH A LAWYER AND TOLD HER SHE NEEDED TO MOVE OUT WITHIN TWO WEEKS. Then her tune changed a little.

I did this 2 weeks ago and told her she needed to stay somewhere else for a few days to think about what she really wanted in life. She stayed in a hotel for 2 night and then came home. She played the "i'm feeling so alone right now, the only thing i have left is my job, how can you expect me to give that up" routine and i was suckered into agreeing that she keep her job. I now see that was a huge mistake. there was absolutely no contact for a week and half, so i thought we were finally on the road to recovery, until the OM sent her an innocent "how was your holiday" email yesterday morning.

In light of this information, does your recommendation change? If i tell her she needs to leave her job again, she'll just try to do the same thing. I am thinking that I just need to go straight to exposure at work.

I guess one other option would be to confront her and ask her if she has had any contact with the OM, and when she tell me she hasn't, I'll just respond with "you are lying, I can see it in your eyes." I could also call out her behavior over the weekend compared to last night. Over the weekend she was acting quiet and depressed, like she might be going through withdrawal, but last night, after she got her fix, was her happy-go-lucky self.

TC, my suggestion would be to do a workplace exposure and another exposure to the OMW, all on the same day. That may change the workplace scenario all on its own and cause one of them to leave.

But right after i would make it clear to her that this won't work unless she no longer works at the same place as the OM. That has to be your boundary, becasue why stay in an impossible situation?

If workplace exposure has no effect, then you would want to go into Plan B if she won't end contact with him.

should I tell the OMW that I exposed at work, or just let her find out from her H?


Should I say anything to my W about continued contact before this? Obviously I would not hint at telling work.

Even if he leaves work or is fired, he lives in the same town the university is in and we live 75 miles away, my WW commutes every day. So, even if he is not working there, he will still be in the immediate area with a lot more time on his hands to bother my WW, so even if he does leave work, i don't think I will be satisfied until she is not working in the same city anymore.


Who should be told when exposing at work. WW and the OM work for a university, so things work a little different than your average company. This university is a large state school, so I doubt that the president or chancellor will want anything to do with this. I don't want my email to fall on deaf ears.

Let her find out from H.


She needs to be confronted with this recent evidence. I think perhaps the right timing would be when she finds out about the school exposure and the new exposure to the OMW. You could let her know that you are having her watched and the school, the OMW, know all about her recent contact with the OM. Don't tell her HOW or WHO, but let her suspect the school is watching her. Say something like, you know, the IT department has a record of every one of your emails with the OM.


You can get away with this much more easily than them working together. So lets cross that bridge in the future.



I would send the letter to the Director of Human Resources, and CC the chancellor along with their respective department heads. Put the cc on every letter and send the HR letter certified so they have to sign for it.

Do you have the template?

yes, i have the one you posted for me a few weeks ago, thanks.




so i should send an actual letter instead of an email? I guess i'll have to wait a few days then before stuff starts to happen.


How long does it typically take for HR to act on a letter like this?


What do you recommend i do until all of this stuff happens? Should I just act normal at home and continue my plan A?

1) Well, I usually give waywards a chance to hang themselves first. Of course she'll reject your offer, and that's when I would do it.

2) If she pulls the hotel room stunt again, let her know that her crap will be on the front lawn and the locks changed if she does it again. If she leaves, there is no coming back without conditions.

3) She can either have her current job or her husband, her choice. Do not allow her to have both.

4) There is no such thing as an "innocent" email from OM. He backed off for a week until things settled down, and now he's hoping he can start things up again without getting caught. He will always have that ability as long as they work together.

5) This woman is not marriage material. Give her a chance to come back to you, but when she fails, move on without her.

It's easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission. In any case, I doubt anyone will pursue a legal case against you, particularly as you are not actually "hacking", but using your wife's access information, which she gave you, right?



There is, if they've enabled RPC over HTTP (which is usually done if they're allowing OWA, as it's a simple option to enable through the same server).

Quickest way to find out is to create a new Outlook profile on your folder, add a "Microsoft Exchange Server" e-mail account to that profile, and when prompted enter the name of the Exchange server and your your wife's user name. Before hitting "Next" though, hit "More Settings", select the "Connection" tab, Select the "Connect to my Exchange mailbox using HTTP" option, then click on the "Exchange Proxy Settings" button and enter the URL for the OWA server as the "proxy server for Exchange". If it works, the Outlook client on your PC will work like the Outlook client on her PC at work, except it will be downloading e-mail via the OWA server, rather than directly.

I'm assuming that you know the name of the Exchange server. If you don't there are several ways to get that.

she doesn't have outlook on her PC at work. She doesn't even have her own PC, her job has her moving between different buildings and labs all day. She uses the MS outlook web access exclusively.

TC, if you have email addresses, I would just go ahead and do it like that today. Be sure and put the cc's on the email so everyone knows that everyone looking.

he will have this ability even if he quits his job or is fired. He would still know my WW's email address, and if is isn't working will have even more time to pursue her. this is why i think that she must leave work regardless of what he does. This may not be a problem because my WW is already very worried that I will tell work and has said that she would not be able to continue working there is everyone knew what she had done.

i haven't looked for the addresses, but I imagine they would be easy to find on the university website. But, sending an email to Hr may not get notices as much as a certified letter, so I am starting to think that is the better way to go.

another question i have if how to deal with WW's family after i expose. I know for a fact that her mother does not believe that exposing at work will help anything. I know this needs to happen regardless of where her family stands, but I would like to be able to tell them why this was necessary, but i don't want to tell them i have email access.

I don't need her going to them for support and having them dismiss me a some crazy paranoid guy that she is better off without.

Explain to them that the affair was being conducted at work every day and exposure was recommended so the workplace could watch them and protect themselves from legal liability. This affair places the university at legal risk so naturally, they should know about it.

Keep in mind that your W and the OM took this risk, not you. You are not to blame for any repurcussions from their workplace adultery. That is a choice they made.

Since I just went through a similar situation, let me give you my lessaons:

1. WW could care less about your pain, so don't bother playing to pity.

2. Nothing positive can happen in recovery when there is contact. Contact can mean eye contact in the company parking lot. That is job one, get one of them out of there.

3. Who cares about the legality of the emails, the company isn't going to start a legal action in an embarrassing situation like this.

4. The company also isn't going to much care about an affair. If every person who had a workplace affair got fired, the economy would ground to (more) of a halt. If they are in direct reporting lines, they won't care unless someone is going to sue somebody.

5. Thirty days after D-day, I discovered contact, calls and the one "accidental" meeting at a store. Workplace had nothing to do with it, since W had quit on D-day. I immediately called the OM's house. He denied contact. I told him to put his wife on the phone or I was going to break every bone in his face. Not the recommended strategy, but she got on. I told her about the emails and the meetings. She didn't believe me. I put my W on the phone with OM's W and W confessed to it. OM's W went bats@#t. OM got back on with me, cried his eyes out, begged forgiveness yada yada. I reiterated his facial bone situation and hung up.

So, now it is two and a half months after that. I'm sure OM's W is watching him like a hawk. My W has a new full time job that is very time consuming, and she is very good at keeping me posted on her movements hour to hour.

Talk on the phone to one of the Harleys. You can get an hour appointment probably on 48 hours notice in an emergency like this.

Aside from that, if it were me, I would get back on with OM's W and tell her about the emailing. She was the one that had the set and forced the workplace change before, right?

Are any of these emails ...uh...romantic or sexual in nature?

yes





you said talk to one of the Harley's. I thought that only Steven was the one doing counseling. Are there others?

TC, Mike gave you good advice to call the Harleys and I hope you follow through. Even so, in workplace exposures the goal isn't necessarily to MAKE them do something. Some do, some don't. That is neither here nor there.

The goal is to expose it there and make it uncomfortable for them to carry on their affair at work. Affairs are no longer any fun when everyone is watching. It will be much harder for them to carry on there and they will feel the pressure in that environment when everyone knows. And just as important is the fact that the university is at legal risk when they have workplace affairs.

TC, both Harley kids are very good, but I think in your case, Steve would be the most helpful. He seems to be very effective in crisis situations, such as yours. Jennifer is excellent in the recovery side - just my SECOND HAND OPINION.

i just called to schedule an appointment, but the office closes at 2PM, so now i have to wait until at least tomorrow.

what should i do in the mean time?

Re-expose to OM's wife about what you just found out and make preparations to expose to HR and your WW's family.

When telling her family, tell them that you told her she needed to find another job and she refused and continued to carry on her affair with OM while at work. Therefore, you notified work so they could maybe keep hinder them from continuing your WW's affair. You are just trying to get her to stop cheating and this was the best course recommended to you by your counselor to get her to stop.

not too sure how to re-expose to OMW since I am not confident she won't spill the beans on my email access.




this already happened and they know about it. When i told her to find another job, her mother even told her she didn't think that was necessary.

Thats ok. She needs to be called ASAP. Please try and remember what your goal is here, this intel was gathered for a reason. That reason is to EXPOSE, not to just spy on her. I would get this done ASAP.

I think that you're worrying far too much about the whole "email access" thing. For all anyone knows, your wife could have left her email up at home and you saw it, kwim? (And the whole "logging in from two places" is a non-starter in the days of Blackberries, etc)

Bottom line is that your wife is quite the cake-eater. And she will continue to be, until she becomes convinced that it is not in her best interest. Like, for instance, if she comes home and finds all her stuff in a big pile outside on the lawn because she's been lying her @ss off to you.

Here's the thing: you have to decide *for yourself* exactly how much you are willing to take. How long are you willing to let this contact continue?

Why can't you show the latest emails to OM's W? I'm sure that she would be very interested. While I don't disagree w/Melody's thoughts about exposure at work, I would think that exposure at OM's home would be more effective.

I already exposed to OM's W, and she does not seem to be taking this very seriously. She did not want to see any of the original emails or any other proof.

I was told by my wife however, that if the OM'W found out that they have continued to contact each other, that their marriage would be over. I was told this after I confronted them at lunch 2 weeks ago. I agreed not to call the OM's W so the OM could confess on his own. I did not believe this would happen, but email confirmed that he confessed that they were still having lunch together.

I think the reason I have waited so long is that I keep (foolishly) hoping that my WW will finally send an email that says "we shouldn't be doing this, please leave me alone." I know I'll never see it, but i still have a tiny bit of hope. If that makes any sense. Probably part of my BS fog.

Denial - that's a pity. I would be willing to bet that she would be interested in mailed copies of the emails.



Right now, you should believe nothing that your wife says.


Hmm. He confessed to .... lunch. And that is probably the extent of his "confession".


Hope is not a plan.

You need to ratchet things up a few notches at this point. Speaking plainly, neither your W nor the OM have enough fear - fear of discovery, fear of consequences. You, on the other hand, have too much fear. This is not a good combination.

You need to ask yourself what you would do if you were not afraid of losing your marriage, of losing your wife, who is disrespecting you by lying to you.

You need to get a bit angrier than you are, work up a little righteous indignation that will drown out the little voice that is afraid of being censured for reading his wife's racy emails to another man.

Get rid of the fear. You will be stronger for it.

Why aren't you exposing the affair to the OMW, TC? Why won't you do anything? All you have to do is take those emails right over to her and this affair would be probably be over. We can't very well help you if you REFUSE to lift a finger to help yourself. This is very frustrating.


WHY? Why would you count on a liar to tell the truth? That makes no sense whatsoever. He is the LEAST LIKELY PERSON to give the wife the truth.

ok, when will you be stopping this foolishness and decide to do something to save your marriage? Anytime soon?

TC9,

I finally caught up on your thread and I can't help but sit and shake my head.

Folks on here have given you the best possible advice as to your best chances to end this A, ie exposure. And yet you balk with "yes, but what if's."

You are a man looking to see the light at the end of the tunnel, and when you see it, you don't seem to realize it is a freight train barreling right down on you. But you remain on the track and rationalize, "see the light at the end of the tunnel."

Get off the freaking track!! Do something, even if it's wrong! Do something and lay off the "what ifs."

Follow the MB plan or not. It's no skin off my nose. It's your M to lose, not mine. If you know better than Dr Harley, then please share that plan with all of us so we can be enlightened.
I beg you!

I know this is harsh, but you seem to be begging to be gaslighted by a WW who wnats to manipulate your and your family, and still have her cake. So, for that matter does her OM. They are a match made in he//.

Get a lawyer and sue OM for finacial ruin of your M. It's bogus, but will certainly get the attention of OM's W and she might begin to take you seriously. Who cares if she thinks your a nutcake. You don't owe her anything but the truth of their A.

All blessings,
Jerry

Certainly seems like there is more than enough fog to go around here.

How do you spell "pea soup?"

All Blessings,
Jerry

Neither did my W's OM'sW (that is a complex acronym). A BS is in shock and DENIAL. I have my W's emails printed out from August and I don't even go back and read them. Not surprising she wouldn't want more knives in the heart.

However, she obviously got the job move made, as ineffective as it was. She seems to be the one that might get it done.


OM will lie to W and they both will lie to you. It is a pit of vipers right now. Believe nothing other than what your conversations with the OM's W.

Look, by not keeping the OM's W abreast of what you know about contact, you are being an accessory to the affair, being part of the coverup, hurting their marriage and hurting your chances of reconciliation.

You want more than that? You are making the OM's life easier by sitting by and letting them communicatey. He gets to socialize, at the least, with your W, and have peace on the homefront with his naive wife. Blow him up.

My W's OM's W screamed at me on the phone that I was harassing them, until I laid the facts out and explained we were allies in this. Now she understands and is watching the lying <censored> like a hawk.

I've got an appointment set up with Steve Harley for tomorrow morning.

Did you read any of our posts about calling the OMW? will you be calling her?

yes, i will on calling her, right after i talk with Steve. The purpose of the session is to talk about the best course of action, so I want to wait until after that.

I know you will all say that I am just stalling again, but nothing is going to happen today that can't wait for tomorrow. My wife is spending old college friend who is in town today, so she won't be able to spend any time contacting the OM.

sigh.... yes, this is more stalling. Hopefully Steve can get you to do something because we have apparently failed and have wasted alot of time here.

ML,

I know it is stalling, but I am the type of person that usually needs to know the outcome before I decide to do something, and that is just not possible in this situation. I guess you could call it fear of the unknown.

Everyone on this forum has helped me more than you could possibly know. Before I found this site I felt completely lost. I still feel lost, but talking about this has really helped calm my feelings about the whole situation. I guess part of my problem in moving forward is that everyone here has given multiple options for my next steps, and I am having a he|| time choosing.

Ah, one of those. You need to get over that fear or the world will pass you by while you are still pondering whether or not to make a decision. You know, putting off a decision is still a decision that has consequences. Stalling and hoping the problem will go away is much more harmful than actually trying something. Again, what are you afraid of? What you should be afraid of is being trapped in a emotionally abusive marriage where you wife continually cheats on you while you do nothing.

the stalling ends after I have my session with Steve Harley tomorrow morning. I know I have done nothing to show you guys that I will actually follow through, but I fully intend to.

EVERYONE has told you to expose to the OMW. And your choice has been to ignore that advice. But that is your prerogative. It is your life.

I'm not denying that any I need to expose to the OMW no matter what else I decide to do. I just want to go over that plan with Steve before I do anything. I have not done things the prescribed way so far, exposing to OMW and her family, but not at work. Exposing to my family, but not telling her about it for 2 weeks. Clearly, that has not been effective. I feel that this next exposure is going to be my last chance, so I am very paranoid about getting it right, making sure that everything happens at once, OMW, work, her family, my family, maybe even her friends.

I can't fathom why anyone here would counsel you to take immediate action when you are talking to Steve in the AM.

I will be interested to hear his counsel if you would share it here. He will try to get your W involved in the counseling, of that I am sure.

i can't wait until my session with Steven Harley tomorrow morning.

I am beyond ready to blow this affair open as wide as can be.

Last night I confronted my WW about her change in mood since we were back in town from thanksgiving and back at work in the general vicinity of her OM. She was acting downright depressed on Sunday, but in a much better mood Monday and Tuesday night.

I asked her to show me her email to prove that she hadn't had contact with the OM. She logged in and showed me the inbox, deleted items, and sent folders, and nothing was there. When I told her to open the folder in her inbox she got really defensive and immediately logged off. We had a fight about what i need to be able to trust her.

Fast forward to today. She was in a great mood this morning, telling me how much she loved me and that everything will be ok and all that crap. During the day, there were no emails between them. I though (foolishly) that just maybe she came to her senses and told him to leave her alone. How stupid I was for even letting the thought cross my mind because at about 5 tonight, she sent an email to a new email account, not his work email, saying that she had deleted all incriminating emails and that if I wanted to check again tonight I wouldn't find anything. It amazes me how she can continue this and at the same time act like nothing is wrong at home, but I guess cheaters are all that way. My hope is quickly draining and it is being replaced by a desire to watch everything blow up in her face. I used to feel bad about causing her embarrassment at work because her industry is so small that even if she got a new job somewhere else, she would still have to interact with the people she currently works with. Well, not anymore.

You are all probably asking yourself why I am sitting her typing on this forum instead of going ahead with the exposure. But, since I have an AM appointment with Steve Harley, why not wait a half day and go over my plan in detail with the expert. I almost can't wait for the session.

Because if you would have exposed yesterday, you wouldn't have had to endure this new email that stabbed you in the heart once again when Steve would have told you the exact same thing. It's like drugs, the deeper they get into it, the harder it is to break. Don't let her get any deeper. I think it's pretty obvious that if you put it off any longer, they would be right back in the sack again.

Oh, and don't play games. Just let her know that you found out that she is still in touch w/ OM and she needs to find a new job (you can tell her OMW told you, and OMW can tell OM that you told her so you can keep your intel source safe). Lay down the law, and if she doesn't want to obey it, ditch her. There are even plenty of evil people that wouldn't cheat on their spouse as quickly as yours did.

OMG! Of course you should have exposed to OMW! Do you think Steve will tell you otherwise? As if! I have read threads where Steve has advised holding off on exposure to family and friends (temporarily) but NEVER to the OP's BS. As Jim said you wouldn't of had to put yourself through the pain of betrayal again if you had. This is a neccessity!!!

Hopefully you will do something afrter speaking with Steve. No way will he tell you to enable your WW's disgusting A.

Steve will slow you down.

Fools rush in where angel's fear to tread.

You are on a harley board and about to speak to a Harley. Disregard all other static.

Please share his counsel, tho.

Agree.

Any advice for my session with Steve?

It will only be my first session, but my goal is to come out of it with a clear plan to end this affair. I don't think I can wait another week to meet with him again while this [censored] continues between my WW and the OM.

This morning my WW was on her email, so I asked her to show me her account. Since I have her password, I knew that she had deleted all incriminating emails, but that she had forgotten to delete one sent email to a new email address of OM's. She agreed and showed me her inbox and deleted items folder. I then asked to see her sent items and the email to the OM was still there. I asked her to open the email and who it was from, again she got very defensive and would not tell me and logged off. We both left for work angry at each other. When I got to work, she had already changed her password. Then a few minutes ago she called and said "I can't stand when you are mad at me, so if having access to my email will make you feel better, I'll give you my password." I expressed how skeptical I was that she was so defensive about me seeing her email this morning, and then an hour later she was willing to give me full access. At the end of our conversation I asked her to give me the password, and she said she'd give it to me tonight and we could go through her inbox together. She must think I am a total idiot if she thinks this is going to make me feel better.

Jeez, just stop acting out until you talk to Steve. Get out of the house, go to the gym, stay away from her until you get on the phone with him. This email or that email is not going to stop NC or fix your marriage.

i know, i was hoping to catch her red-handed without giving up my source.

Take notes. Read through the articles here as much as you can.

Make sure he understands you are freaking out and confronting everyday.

Thing is....you've already caught her. You know what's going on. And she knows too.

All you're both doing is playing a game that doesn't end well.

Hopefully Steve will give you a plan that will end the game playing.

As Mike said, take notes. Be open minded. Have you read any of the Harley books or articles on this site?

Translation: "I've just set myself up with a new Hotmail / Gmail account to use for correspondence with the OM."

I've read all the articles and bought Surviving after and affair, and his need, her Needs. I'm in the middle of SAA right now.

yeah, i know. OM's new email that was in her sent items was gmail account.

You screwing around and letting your wife continue her affair evven after she's been busted will end up harming you far more than you know.

The anger and resentment you will feel towards her would be enormous enough if she had ended the affair on day one.

Once (if) the dust settles, the fact that she continued to see OM and rub your face in it will tear you up.

I believe all WW's should be given an ultimatum on d-day: End all contact with OM right now, or get the ____ out.

That is what i should have done, but unfortunately I had not found this site yet, and was dealing with a tornado of emotions, I didn't really know how to feel about everything for a few days after d-day

Then give the ultimatum right now.

Don't give her a cut-off date, don't give her "one more meeting for closure".

End it now, or let OM be her landlord.

that will be the topic of my session with Steve.

the OM is married with kids, so plan B, if it comes to that, should be really rough on her since she'll be all alone. Unless OM decides to move out too, but i doubt that will happen.

Dr. Harley is clearly an intelligent man, but some things have got to come from your gut.

You don't need his help to end the affair. What you'll need his help with is how to avoid hating your wife once the affair is over.

If the ultimatum doesn't produce immediate results, start widening exposure.

I told OM that if he ever contacted my wife again, I'd deliver flyers to his kids' school.

I don't know if he took me seriously, but he should have.

You can end this affair on your own, or at least make your wife's [censored] come at such a high price that OM pays dearly for it.

TC, don't jump at all this dramatic advice. Wait until you talk to Steve today?

I don't think exposure, NC etc is something that has to be done at a given point or it is the end of the world. The only clock is your lovebank.

by the way, if you want to stop sweating all this email jumping, get a keyboard logger, it will catch everything typed on the computer.

That is how I caught my w.

I already have a keylogger, that is how I found her password, but she does most of her emailing while at work, and since 2 weeks ago, has been deleting every email she sends and receives from him, so I have to be logged in to her account while i'm at work to catch most of the traffic.

i am beginning to feel that clock running out...

Dramatic advice? Hardly. His wife is banging someone else. If he wants to sit idly by while his wife exchanges bodily fluid with another man, so be it.

I can't imagine anything Dr. Harley would say that would change the fact that she needs an ultimatum put to her.

Then you can also consider exposing to her boss.

Employers generally don't appreciate company time and resources being used for personal matters.

Well, you are going to talk to the best guy in the world for advice in Steve Harley. If you are here, you should give the site's philosophy a chance with Steve.

There are subtleties and specific statements/actions/demands that he will guide you through that will give you a much better chance of ending the affair. He has an incredible bed of experience.

well, they haven't has sex yet, but that doesn't matter. On D-day, they was discussion about if they were ready to proceed further in their physical relationship, and both of them were very hesitant. All emails since then have mostly been about how much they have to lose if they continue and stuff like that. At one point, 2 weeks ago, they decided to have no physical contact until Jan 1, and then see if each other wanted to continue. Other emails have talked about how many weeks it has been since they last kissed, so I am pretty confident that they have not had sex yet. Not that it really matters, an A is an A no matter if it is an EA, a PA, or both.

Let Steve Harley handle it, that is what he gets paid for. He does advocate exposure, but he sometimes tries to SELL the WS himself before that is done. Who knows what he will say. But he is the professional here and I have not ever heard him make DEMANDS. [ultimatums] In fact, Dr Harley used to say "demands don't work!" And they don't.

That's an awfully big risk to take for stimulating conversation...especially for OM.

He's risking his family, and not even getting any?

since i started reading the emails, he has consistently put the decision on how to proceed on my WW. So, it seems that he has lost all connection to his family, but doesn't want to push my WW into something she doesn't want. The one good thing is that every time he gave her the decision to proceed further, she backed down. I guess it shows that not all love me is completely gone, yet...

when WW and I were talking 2 weeks ago about everything, when I though we were in recovery, she said that she thinks that the OM almost wants to get caught so that he won't have to deal with the guilt of leaving his family. If he gets caught, his wife would have to make the decision to leave or not instead of him. He told WW that the only reason he is staying with his wife is for the kids.

Well, job one will be to get your W on the phone with Steve as well in session 2..

It is crucial to stop contact to get through this, but you also will be told to recognize that the affair happened for a reason, and that has to be fixed. If you aren't meeting each other's needs avoiding LBs, etc, it is much harder for a WS to leave the OP and come back and depend on the marriage for happiness.

You can't get your W back at gunpoint and hold her hostage and have a happy marriage. I know, that is sort of where I'm at right now. It may be necessary to get her through withdrawal, but you also have to start to rebuild.

Aren't they all? :RollieEyes:

Yeah, my W's OM said the only reason he was staying in his marriage is his W would commit suicide.

After D-day, I went into Plan A, and WW did notice a change and things started to get better between us. But, after a week, contact started again. When I exposed to OMW and family, the same thing happened. It happened again after I caught them at lunch 2 weeks ago. All through this I have continues plan A with no results. I know plan A can take up to 3-6 months, but at this point, i don't know how much more i can take to let the A die on its own.

My confrontations the last 2 days are not part of plan A, but I am losing it a little bit and had to try something, even if it is an LB.


Dr. Harley is running late now. I can't stand the waiting.

"but doesn't want to push my WW into something she doesn't want."

Are you kidding? He wants to get into your WW's pants in the worst way. The premier player that the OM is. He knows he has to act as it is the last thing he wants. If he wants success in reaching his objective.

"The one good thing is that every time he gave her the decision to proceed further, she backed down."

It may or may not indicate your plan A is working.

I fully realize his goal, that is just what he is saying.



She was always the one to back down even before d-day, so i am not too sure that my plan has had any effect on her.

And then he can cry to his wife that WW was AFTER HIM and he tried to resist. :RollieEyes:

If WW is backing down, she might only be hesitating because she is weighing her options. Given that she has had a taste of exposure and the embarrassment it brings she might be holding out until she feels more confident that she has you duped.

Have you printed the latest emails between WW and OM as evidence for OMW?

I am sure this is what she is doing. Her family told her that if she doesn't at least try to heal things with me that they will never forgive her, and her family is very important to her.




Not printed, but they have all been copied into word files that are saved on my email. OMW lives an hour away, so i'll send her them in an email.

Preach on, Krazy.

When it comes to BH/WW situations, Plan A is for ****edit**** ... it only compounds the problem by showing your WW just how much of a doormat you can truly be.

ULTIMATUMS are the way to go ... you know where you stand very soon. In fact, there are only a small fraction of BH/WW situations that are salvageable.

Unless you are dealing with a drunken ONS, very short term A, limited PA type of situation, AND you have a immediately remorseful WW, then you have basically no chance at a successful R anyway.

As soon as the WW has EMOTIONS involved, the M is toast.

Obviously, from reading through some of the stories here that "claim" recovery, there are many BH's who simply acquire a taste for ***edit*** and deceive themselves into believing that they have something worth sacrificing their self-respect ... if they ever had any.

There would be a lot more healthy BH's here if ultimatums were standard operating procedure, but then again, there wouldn't be nearly as many counselling fees generated.

wow...

nothing like a good confidence builder right before my meeting...

You just said this:
"At one point, 2 weeks ago, they decided to have no physical contact until Jan 1, and then see if each other wanted to continue."

Sounds like she is weighing her options to me. If her family was as important as she says she wouldn't still be in contact with OM. She is playing you and them hoping to come out as unscathed as possible if she decides to persue OM. Giving you her password only after she destroys evidence is not trying to heal things with you. She just doesn't know her pretense in known.


Make the drive. An hour is nothing compared to what you are at risk of losing. OM could intercept your email and that would be that. Go to the house and deliver them when OM is at work or at the very least send via registered mail.

tc,

FWIW, that message was brought to you by the "Voice of Experience". I am a HUGE advocate of immediate and decisive ultimatums for WW's. If you have a M worth saving ... ULTIMATUMS WORK ... if your M is NOT worth saving, then you know right away.

I employed an ultimatum within minutes of discovery of my FWW's A, and it worked. As a matter of fact, my FWW (FogFree) posts here occassionally, and you can search her posts and read her own words about how effective the ultimatum was at penetrating her fog.

TC, don't listen to this non-Harley advice. It isn't the Harley method these boards are for. EVERY SITUATION IS UNIQUE.Everybody brings a different cultural upbringing, life baggage, levels of love, financial situations, etc.

Now, I blew up in classic fashion, ultimatums, threats of violence to weeping OM, made her quit her job, tossed W out three times, threw all her stuff onto the OM's porch, exposed to her family, priest, everyone, etc. But that was me and my situation and personality, etc.

People DO get through these situations, or at least can stay together long enough to amicably unwind the marriage financially, logistically, kid-wise etc.

But now I am at least seeing what the Harley method might get us to. Will I be with my W in five years? Highly doubtful. But I have three kids and a mortgage, etc., and the mature move FOR ME is to forgive, not forget, and see what the future brings.

Your mileage may vary. Everyone is different. People that preach only from their own experience are a poor sample. Steve H has seen thousands of cases. They read my W like a book and predicted everything that happened after D-day.

Just chill until your session, dude.

Mike_C2,

Feel free to offer whatever advice you see fit, but you've insulted me once too often. It is laughable to see you discount the advice of others that has actually WORKED, considering the results you describe from YOUR method.

tc may or may not have it in him to do what's necessary, and admittedly my advice is for the stronger BH's out there, so I can see where you would misinterpret what was being suggested. This tactic is for BH's who establish boundaries and then enforce them, not for those who only TALK big, but fold in the face of actual conflict.

There is just too high of a percentage of weak BH's here at MB that remain in limbo, to keep doing things the same old way and expecting different results.

Amen, Mike. TC, don't listen to the hotheads; let Steve guide you out of this.

Steve's advice was to continue Plan A, and not expose anything yet.

His advice was to see if WW is willing to get more organized in our approach to healing the M.

Specifically he said:

- Get WW to agree that staying with me and having a happy healthy marriage is the ideal scenario for her.

- Once she agrees to that, express that we need to do research (MB.com, harley books, etc.) to figure out how to make that happen because clearly, we don’t currently have that capability. It is impossible for us to do this without learning, and I don’t want to pursue the impossible. This should be a zero commitment investigation into what is possible in our M.

- Tell her we need a plan and to be more organized

- Don’t barter, use respectful persuasion.

- Tell her I talked with steve and that he has some good ideas and that I think it would be good if she talked to him too


These are probably the standard answers given to every new client.

Just wave your magic wand and "get her to agree", huh? Sounds simple.


Reading is good, but I already knew that.


And what exactly do you say when she asks for specifics?


If you could get her to do what you want with "respectful persuasion", wouldn't you have already "persuaded" her to stop seeing OM?


New clients are always a good thing, I suppose.








Are you gonna deliver the ultimatum now?

Krazy,

Clearly, we are on the same page.

After what tC just posted, it seems to me like this bears repeating:

For what it's worth, TC9, if I was given an ultimatim when I was in the throes of my affair, I would have walked out the door. And my OM was married with kids and 2,000 miles away so I would not have been walking into OM's arms -- just away from my H and very likely forever. As it is, since I confessed (so my situation is different than yours) and my H and I are working together to find each other and our ENs, we have re-connected in a way that we haven't had in 8 years since our son was born. When I was in my affair, I was sure I was in the affair because my marriage was broken and not worth keeping anyway. I was terribly unahappy, my H didn't give a rat's backside about me (so I thought), and I deserved something better. Call it the fog or whatever. But if the man who I perceived as being the one who was causing my unhappiness told me to pick between him and the one I did perceive as making me happy... I would not have picked my H. I (mistakenly) saw H as being a cause of all my problems, not the solution. Why would I pick the problem and not what I thought was the fix? I would have left my H.

Anyway... My H and I are in very early stages of recovery and it's possible we may not make it. But we're trying and I'm hopeful. My experience is not gospel. It's just mine. What I've learned from the MB practices is helping me tremendously and I wanted to encourage you to stay the path you're on with Steve and MB. Just my 2-cents.

Yep.

I respect what Dr. Harley does, but nobody should forget that he is also a businessman.

TC, my suggestion would be to follow Steve's advice. HE knows what he is doing and the advice he gave you is part of a larger strategy.

I used to get real upset when he would tell people to WAIT to expose and I asked him WHY when my H and I went to his MB weekend last year.

He told me that he is a strong believer in exposure, but he wants to talk to the WS FIRST and attempt to "SELL THEM" on the prospect of a happy marriage and giving up their affair. If you have just exposed, though, the WS is less likely to even speak to him because she will be furious. So he doesn't want you to make her mad UNTIL he has had a chance to talk to her.

Now, if she still won't end her affair after he has spoken to her, then he will be "LAUNCH THAT NUKE, BABY!!!" He has even told clients to PICKET the OM's place of business and "do everything short of taking out a billboard."

So, this is his strategy.

I asked him what he wanted us to do on the forum since we are not professional counselors with access to the WS. [or the skills to do it] He said to just keep doing what we are doing and recommending exposure. Steve has the skill and training to pull this off, we don't.

EXACTLY. And that is usually what happens. It is throwing the WS into the arms of the OP, a very stupid strategy. Saying "give up the affair or the highway" to a person who is already DETACHED and completely disgusted with the marriage is very tempting, because most would choose the AFAIR.

The BS usually has no leverage whatsoever, that must be understood. Throwing them out often spells the END OF THE MARRIAGE. The WS is a person who has FALLEN OUT OF LOVE, so he/she doesn't CARE! He is more often GLAD TO GO! Goodbye!

Giving them an ultimatum when you have nothing with which to bargain is not a smart tactic. When you give people ultimatums it only works if you have something to bring to the bargain table.

No solution is going to work for everyone.

Most times the OM is not 2,000 miles away. The OM is nearby, and the WW is sleeping with him on a regular basis.

Once a WW is busted, the ultimatum should be delivered. If the WW "walks out the door", then out the door is exactly where she should be.

Any wife who would continue to see the OM...to rub her husband's face in it like that...should find herself tossed out on her posterior.

The BH would probably be better off, anyway, in both the short and long-term.

Krazy,

My thoughts EXACTLY, and if you've ever taken the time to read Looking4's story, you will see that it fits your hypothesis perfectly.

Plan A, etc. may be a good option for BW/WH situations, but strong, decisive ACTION is almost always the best tactic in BH/WW cases. WW's are a completely different animal, and should be treated differently by this site.

Personally, I would have let you walk. In my mind you would not have been worth the trouble. I don't mean you personally Looking4 since I don't know you. I'm referring to ANY wayward.

I'm with Krazy and Myrev.

Toss her TC. A man should not have to take seconds on his wife.

p.s. in my last marriage - 20 year marriage - I told my H to GET OUT. He said "OK." [yippee!!] And didn't look back. He was happy that he didn't have to be the bad guy and was free to move out and resume his affair in peace! YIPPEE!

He is still with his OW to this day. I did the OW a huge favor - I handed her my H on a silver platter and justified my H's demonization of ME all in the same fell swoop.

I'l be**edit***if I bargained for my marriage!

You want to talk about future resentment? In my opinion unrecoverable.

The problem with Steve's advice is usually based on saving your marriage at all costs. This is usually for fathers who don't want to break up their family for their kids' sakes. You don't have any. Your WW won't leave you as long as you play dumb and allow her to continue her affair. Eventually her affair will die out and you will have the opportunity to be the one to fill her love bank. But why would you want to do this? After having to endure this for another 6 months to a year, would you even be willing to reconcile by the time her affair dies out?

My question to you is this: Why do you still want to salvage your marriage with this woman? Because you love her is just not a good enough excuse. There are plenty of women out there in the world that you can love that will love you back. This woman has cheated on you just months after marrying you and has zero remorse about it. This woman does not share your values. Are you sure you want her to be the woman that raises your children? You need to think about this long and hard before you blidly follow Steve's advice. While it may better your chances at the survival of your marriage, is that really the type of marriage that you want to live with?

This member is here to learn about Marriage Builders!!

It would be appreciated if you would show some respect for that purpose. This is Marriage Builders, after all.

Deleted my post, I liked how JustUss said it better

I think Dr. Harley could really help with the aftermath of the affair in this case...should the WW decide to give it an honest try.

I'd have tried him by now, but I can't afford him.

Also, if I were you, this is what I would do.

1) I would tell her that my spidey sense is telling me that she is still in contact w/ OM, and that she needs to start looking for another job.

2) I would alert OMW that your WW and OM are still in contact and discussing sexually explicit subjects. Tell her that you have your sources.

3) I would go into her email and block both OM's email addresses.

4) I would give your WW about another month or two to find another job, and if she refuses, then I would file for D and tell her she needs to find somewhere else to live (or move out myself if you are just renting).

All the while you should be doing plan A until you do plan D.

And I would deserve that, iam. I have zero expectation that my H needs to try to save our marriage after what I did. Zero. But if my H is willing to try (he's on the fence, changing his mind every day), I'm at the battle station.

In the case of TC9, it sounds like he wants to try to save his marriage. I was just giving the perspective of a betrayer. Whether TC9 chooses to stay or go, is up to him. Whatever methods he uses, is also up to him. For me, an ultimatim would have not given him the results he wants if indeed he wants to keep the relationship. But that's me based on my circumstances at the time of my PA. My H's and my experience may have no relation to what TC9 and his W are facing. If TC9 decdides to toss her as you suggest, than even the ultimatim isn't needed.

(Sorry for the T/J, TC9,)

Trying to manipulate him?

Can you give me one reason why I would do such a thing?

There isn't any money to be had on my end. I gain nothing no matter what he chooses to do.

I'm not suggesting plan B. That would imply that I advocate taking the WS back at some point. I do not. An ultimatum is an ultimatum, or it's hot air.

I don't need to trash anyone to "justify my actions".

I'm in a situation that generally (I'm guessing) ends in divorce 99% of the time, well before the 2.5 year mark.

I have lived it. I'm living it right now. I gave the ultimatum, and it worked. Will it work for everyone? Depends. Are you willing to let your WS continue to sleep with OP for a few more weeks or months while you try to "make the marriage an attractive place to be"? If so, great. Give Plan A a try. Many people have had success with it.

Me, I'm not that patient.

I've been doing this the last few days.




Steve H recommended against this because the OMW will confront the OM, he will tell my WW, and that will be a huge LB, which will work against Plan A which is all about avoiding LBs.




This would give away my source of information driving the A further underground. They still have the ability to see each other around work, so not emailing would not prevent contact, it would only take away my only source of information. Also, doing this is another huge LB.




We'd have to move to another state for her to find another job, her industry is an extremely small one.




Unfortunately we have a mortgage.

Whatever you decide to do, you need to re-prioritize.

How important is your marriage to you?

I would've dropped my job like a bad habit and moved to another state if that's what it took.

If your W cares one bit about your marriage, and maybe she doesn't, she'll agree.

Any marriage in which one spouse places career above family is doomed to fail, anyway.

As far as the mortgage goes, remember that there is no debtor's prison.

I asked steve H about plan B and he said he usually doesn't recommend it for younger people without kids. It effectively throws the WS into the OP's arms and makes it easy for them to just forget the previous few years of their lives and move on.


I guess the reason that I am so he// bent on trying to recover my M is that I don't think I could live with myself if i walked away and didn't even try. I think I would spend the rest of my like looking back and wondering if I gave up on what could have become the best thing in my life but was too weak to even try. If I put all my effort into plan A, and WW still continues to build her relationship with OM, then soon enough all of my love for her will drain away and it will be easy to walk away.

I've told her that I was willing to do this. Her position is that since she is in the middle of a 3 year residency, she would have to start over. Not a bid deal in my opinion, but she is still in her fog, so I guess her opinion on moving is predictable.

Without insulting anyone, I wish that the people yelling 'jump" to people here on ledges would have at least gone through counseling with Steve or Jen. I have counseled with both of them, and my marriage is better for it, despite the horror this year. I love my W to pieces, and we are together 8 years after I came here with a marriage in trouble, and we raised my kids to late teens in a happy home due to MB. Perfect and in love every moment? Definitely not, but you break up in your 40s and you are going to find out everyone out there has baggage.

First off, I gave an ultimatum, so obviously I'm not against it.
Short of physical violence, barely short, I can't imagine a more dramatic D-day reaction than mine.

But someone tell me exactly what that ultimatum should be?

I had a list of demands better than most due to my Harley reading and counseling. But if your only "ultimatum" is merely "don't contact the OP", then you are not being strong ENOUGH. There is a procedure here, and with ultimatums, you may only get one bite at the apple.

If I did resort to an ultimatum, it would include NC with OM and that WW resign from her job.

I posted this elsewhere but maybe it bear repeating:

I believe Steve and Jennifer are advocates of first trying to pull the WP into a fledgling effort at marital recovery, and trying to make the BS seem to be a viable option with hope for happiness for the WS.

I would guess that 90 percent of the couples that come to them had or are having an affair. It would be nice if they could flip a switch in the first call and break up the affairs, but there is a powerful addiction there, and most affairs do not end D-day.

Some, most, BS may walk away that day. The people who are here on this board are choosing not to.

Now, if a BS got on the phone with Steve or Jennifer and said, I can't take this for one more second, I'm going to expose, tell me how, I suppose they would give advice.

But if I were Steve and Jennifer and just walked in advocating preciptate action without doing some professional information gathering and trying to find a more peaceful amicable path, I am guessing they would find themselves in court quite a bit as accessories to some violent acts.

My list included this:

-- committing to the marriage
-- all her email and cell passwords
-- an STD test
-- quitting her job
-- keeping me apprised of her whereabouts every second
-- sending a no contact letter to OM
-- answering each and every question I asked regarding the affair truthfully, no matter how detailed or intimate
-- taking a child on any shopping or errand trips
-- giving me contact info on the OM and his W (and I called them)
-- immediately beginning Harley therapy and reading the material
-- getting on anti-deps
-- apologizing to kids and me in a family meeting
-- writing a what and where document and signing it for my use in a divorce case if there was any further contact


She did agreed to each of the above and I let her move back home from the Comfort Inn, which, I am told, offered her little comfort.

this is exactly the main point Steve made today. It takes baby steps, and the first one is for WW to realize that falling in love with me again and having a fulfilling marriage with me is the ideal situation for my WW.




When I asked about exposure, Steve wanted to wait to see if WW came around at all and was willing to do some research and be open to counseling. He said that if after 10 days or so that no progress has been made, that another course of action, (exposure) will be needed.

bump

When you pay your money to get Harley advice live, your best to use it.

If you tell a WW to quit OM cold turkey, you have to be prepared that she might leave.

If one is trying to save their marriage why put yourself in a position where you get the WW to move out?

Does anyone realize that you can't plan A a WW after she moves out?

You can't have a good plan B if you don't do a good plan A.

And, if you have your WW move out, is that not making it easier for WW and OM to get it on?

If an affair is on, what's a week more to get WW on the phone with one of the Harley's. If WW won't then you can expose to the whole world.

I think the point that I'm trying to make is that a BH either gets his wife to quit cold turkey, or he's a doormat in the eyes of his WW.

What kind of a man busts his wife, KNOWS she's still sleeping with OM after d-day, then takes her back if she "snaps out of it"?

I feel like less than a man because I didn't murder the OM in my living room. If I had taken her back after she continued to sleep with him post d-day? I'd never forgive myself.

I feel that a BH/WW situation is a unique animal, as others have said.

Plan A and Plan B are for the BS...and so is the ultimatum.

In a nutshell, this quote emphasizes the difference in perspectives between an indecisive and decisive BH. Once I discovered my W's A, I would not have tolerated it going on for ONE SECOND more, little alone another week.

It is my opinion, and admittedly not shared by all, that any WW that will not agree to NC IMMEDIATELY and recommit to the M is NOT worth the pain and effort necessary to reach R.

Some may call it pride ... I consider it more a matter of self-respect, but I could not look at myself in the mirror KNOWING that my W was in an active A with another M, and consequently, I have little respect for those who can.

Exactly. I think my WW hoped I would throw her out and the OM's W would throw him out and they would live happily ever after. She as much as told me that.

If we took as bible everything we said to each other in the first month, we would definitely not be under the same roof now trying to keep it together. You are, as someone here said, careening around with a gaping chest wound.

Now, my W says very sincerely and tearfully that it was the biggest mistake of her life, it was "fantasyland", it was selfish, she knows they could never be together, and her actions dramatically hurt the lives of at least seven people.

In this case I don't think you have to worry about throwing your WW into the arms of OM because it seems to me that OM has already chosen his wife if he can't have both. He's still trying to see if he can sneak around and have both. I think exposure to OMW will close that door.

I'll defer to Steve because he said to only wait for exposure for 10 more days. That give his WW a chance to end it on her own without indefinitely draining his love bank. 10 days is a reasonable amount.

I feel the same way about both these statements. But, then again, I was one of those that always said an affair would be it. Or I'd murder her. Or the OM.

I didn't, and neither did you, so we are both learning new boundaries, huh, Krazy? Others may have different ones. You walked in on them in your own home. Jesus. Other people say the line would be doing it more than once. Or bringing the OP around other people. Or doing it in their bed. Or it being more than oral. Or unprotected. A BS can have all sorts of justications for deciding it "wasn't so bad". It continuing past D-day is just one more of them.

Would the man on the street say it is more unforgiveable for an emotional only affair to continue, as TC's is, or for a BS to walk in on the act in his home, as you did (and I could have). I think the latter.

Remember, TC's W hasn't been physical, unlike what you and I put up with. So have some consideration.

Many of you have mentioned that I am allowing my WW to sleep with the OM while I try Plan A

Let me set the record straight. They are not sleeping together. I have read every email between them for the past month. They have discussed how they haven't even kissed in over a month, so i seriously doubt they are sleeping together. If they were, I could not be this calm and wait 10 more days.

If the federal government were to make murder legal for one day, I'd take advantage of it.

Only the threat of prison has kept him alive this long. It has nothing to do with morals, or concern for my fellow man.

I'm just not willing to do the time.

Yep, me too.

question about SF.

Before the A, our relationship had been slowly going downhill to the point that SF happened about once a month, maybe twice. Over the years, my WW had become less and less interested in SF, so I figured that that is just the way she was, and I was willing to accept that. When I would confront her about it she would just say that there must be something wrong with her and that she rarely felt "in the mood."

We had a good talk a few weeks ago about ENs and she said that while she always thought that she just naturally had a low sex drive, her new relationship with the OM brought out sexual feeling that she didn't think she had. She said that she now very much wanted SF with me much more frequently, but said that I need to learn how to her her in the mood better, which is fine by me.

My question is, how to I handle this during plan A. Since D-day she has tried to initiate SF much more often than she ever has before, but it just doesn't feel right, as I am sure all of you know. But, since plan A is all about fulfilling her ENs, should I go along with it, even though it will be difficult? If I go along, does it show weakness that I am willing to look past the A as long as I still get some?

As long as you know she has not slept with OM, I encourage you to be a stallion in bed and satisfy her in every way that you can. Lack of SF is usually a sign of a bad relationship, and this affair has stirred up the inner sexual being in her. You need to learn how to stir it up yourself and get her in the mood.

Even tho they didn't have sex? That is weird to me.


You aren't "getting some" you are making lo0ve with your W, knucklehead. If that is your attitude about sex, no wonder she wants to retrain you :-)

Jeez, do you want to save your marriage? Tear it up, dude. It is an EN....do you want her to go outside the marriage for it?

My W and I have been having SF three times a week, and it has been great sex, too. It soothes our souls.

You need that bond.

Jeez....initiate tonite. Initiate tomorrow AM too. "Fulfillment" She is dying for it.

Another thing that she has said she needs is for me to flirt with her. The emails between them before Dday were all just one giant flirt session that included many explicit conversations and teasing. I have tried to engage in this with her, but she doesn't really respond. I guess it is part of the fog she is still in.

Another thing I noticed from the emails is that she seemed to always sit back and wait for the OM to start anything, and even after that, she would play very hard to get. I guess she has a need to be chased. To me that sounds like a very childish need, and isn't something that someone could reasonably expect to continue throughout a long-term relationship or marriage. But, I'll try my best and see what happens.

This is not my attitude, but i feel she may think this is my motivation.



that is the exact frequency she said she wanted. If we approached anything close to 3 times a week I'd have a smile plastered on my face 24/7.

The need to be romanced and wanted is a terrible affliction that strikes one of every one American women.

Not when she is initiating and saying she wants it, right?

If you don't mind doing it, go right ahead.

Check and see if OM had any pet names for her that she really liked, and use those.

Then in return, maybe she'll re-enact some of the things she and OM had discussed doing.

Fair is fair, right?

what i meant to say is that in the back of my mind I worry that if I allow her advances, she will just think that I will put aside my anger for sex, almost like she is testing me.

I have never approached our physical relationship as like a college kid who just wants to get laid.

There were plenty of those.




some of the things she said in her emails i never would have thought she would even think let alone write down and tell someone. I have told her that I would be doing backflips if I ever received an email like some of the ones she sent the OM. She just gets embarrassed when I bring it up though.

That would be mine. Asking these two things should give you an idea of how she values the marriage.

Ultimatums are more for the BS than the WS. As in "If you love me and value our marriage that is what you will choose"

well....maybe, but I would just take her at her word that she wants it and fill that need. Y'all are married.

I think the downside of (perhaps) leaving her sexually frustrated is far more important than the possibility of your strategic concern.

you're probably right on that.

Let it go. It is a huge lovebuster. Why bring him up when you are hoping she forgets him?

Krazy was being sarcastic about the nicknames. Or sardonic. Or whatever.

ok, I'm taking W to a nice romantic dinner. Go get laid.

i probably need a lesson in romance. And my genes are working against me. My father is probably the least romantic person on the face of this earth.

Sorry, that post was sarcastic. Suggesting that you do certain things because she liked when OM did it is A) gross B) insensitive as hell C) bovine fecal matter

Like I said...ask her to do items "A" and "B" to you from her naughty emails with OM and see how she reacts. I'll bet her tune will change in one second.

You've got bigger fish to fry right now. You'll get to deal with the issue of "she'd do things with/for OM that she won't do with me" later.

It isn't so much the "doing of thing" as the talking about "doing of things." She didn't say anything to him that she wouldn't do with me, but the fact that she verbalized it was the most surprising thing, the dirty talk i guess you could say.

Opinions vary, but if she was only talking to him, I congratulate you. You are one of the lucky few, and I'd literally give a limb to be in your situation versus mine.

Keep your eyes open, count your blessings, and good luck to you.

I do feel pretty lucky that the when I found out, the the most recent emails were about if they were ready to take their physical relationship to the next step. They were planning on spending the night together at the OM's house the following weekend when the OMW was out of town. Glad that I didn't find out a week later after this all was supposed to happen.

Get this woman out of your life NOW! She has failed every test and has clearly shown she's not marriage of mother material. You say you're close to your family? Why do you think the dislike her so much? Because they can see through her. She has you wrapped around her finger. You can't see the woods from the trees. Trust their impartial judgement.

Just be thankful you don't have any children with this woman! Learn from this and move on while you still have some dignity left.

That is an incredibly broad and UNTRUE generalisation.

WOW.

I can think of many situations where there were emotionally entangled affairs and they had great recoveries. Mine for starters.

It worked FOR YOU, Not all WW's respond like that to ultimatums.

Dr Harley says ultimatums DON'T work. You may be the exception that proves the rule MyRev.

I suppose we all have to define "successful" for ourselves.

YOU may be the exception ... that is for you to decide ... but I've been here for long enough to realize that ... with regard to BH/WW's ... "many situations" ... is a GROSS exaggeration.

I totally agree Mel - that was my experience. My wife walked.

I don't define strength by a BH making ultimatums on his WW. Strength IS taking decisive action though.

Well let's see...... just off the top of my head....

The Wonderings
Bob Pure
Kahunas

and many others who don't post here anymore and I will not name.

Now I also know plenty with really poor "recoveries" but they were not because the BH didn't give ultimatums - they were usually because the BH settled for far too little.

It's EASY to mistake chest pounding and ultimatums for strength.

uGHHHHHH,

The Worst is yet to come.

We'll be here.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I can only imagine how hard it might be to provide SF for your WW now, but if you can muster it up, do it. SF is one of my top ENs, more than my H, for sure. Very important to me. And it's the oddest thing because since my confession, our love making has been spectacular. My H is tempering it by telling me before or after that he doesn't want to give me false hope for us staying together. But he feels it's a great escape for both of us. He may be enjoying it strictly for the physical pleasure, but I know it's helping me tremendously in feeling more connected to him and more wanting of him. It's helping make me feel more like a woman to him as opposed to just being the house cleaner, mother, lawn mower, chaperone... And it's helping me see him more as a man who really does care about my desires.

If you want your WW to feel connected to you as well, I see sex as only helping -- if you can. For us it's been all kinds --from passionate, drawn-out love making to quickies on the bathroom floor -- things we have never done before in our many years together. Another thing... My H is encouraging me to release my "dirty" side. And we're both enjoying that too. Maybe TMI??? (Sorry.)

Take a chance, TC9. You might discover something amazing between you two that can help if you decide to stay with her.

I don't believe it's wise to have sex with an active wayward and I certainly would not share her sexually with an OM.

That could be life threatening not to mention soul/respect destroying.

She is having sex with OM I thought?

SF with a WW in the throws of an A is disgusting. Do you have any self respect?

I agree, BK, but above TC9 said he knows they have not had physical sex. Now, how he can really truly know that I guess is debatable, but he seems certain that it's only been an EA so far. If it's an ongoing PA I too, say no sex. My sitch is different in that my physical encounter with the FOM was 7 months ago and my STD tests came back clean.

For All The Real Men:

For those of you claiming to be the real men here, listen up!

If a WW bangs the OM any number of times before D day, say x times. Because you gave an ultimatum on D day that the WW must give up the OM right now and then.

My question is how is a real man a "real man"?

Is it because he can keep a WW that banged the OM only x times, but can not keep a WW that banged the OM x + 1 times?

Is banging the OM 1 time ok, but 2 times not ok?

Or is ten times ok but not twelve?

How about is it 21 times ok, because you were a real man and put your foot down and stopped it before WW did the OM twenty five times?

If a real man can not handle one time, or one more time, why are they keeping their WW's?

Shouldn't these real men be lawyer up and be in divorce court?

Can people at least read the thread before "throwing" bombs?

I have read the thread. EA, PA its still an A

They have not had sex, and TC said this as recently as today.

Could be a lie - he says elsewhere it is a PA.

He just needs to be careful.

Regardless why would you want to have SF with a woman who is 'in love' with OM and refuses NC????

I'm glad that you are better off without your xWW, but why don't you leave those questions to those of us who have actually recovered our marriages?

By the way, I'm of the belief that this marriage probably shouldn't be saved, considering his WW is cheating after only 3 months of marriage. However, there is expressing your opinion and then there is browbeating a poster. Keep your comments helpful and don't project your anger over your situation on the poster.

I have no anger over my situation. My advise is that a BS should not have SF with a WS until they have committed to the M. His WW is deep in an A and you should lower yourself and be happy to block this from your mind and make love to her? Come on get real.
Filling her love bank is one thing but this is ridiculous

I really, really want to phrase this in a way that is not confrontational or snide, but, why do you post here on MarriageBuilders?

Because I believe people should try and save a M where there are kids involved. I've been there and would like to help people to do that through my first hand knowledge.

I do not on the other hand agree that a M should be saved at all costs. Certainly not by a WS being rewarded with SF, which is the most intimate loving act a married couple can engage in, while they are active in an A be it an EA or a PA.

I've seen too many people settle for far too less on these boards and it always comes back to bite them. Confused started this thread trying to get advice on how to get his parents and WW to reconcile. He mistakenly thought he was in recovery. The marriages I have seen recover here are ones where the BS has stood firm on NC and would not settle for anything less. Bob pure springs to mind. When a WS is involved in an A the M is already dead. BS's need to be less afraid of loosing a WS. I know the fear as I've been there. But they are already lost thats the point.

And for the record I don't think this M should be saved where the inlaws dislike the WW to begin with, married 3 months and no kids.

Does that answer your question?

Huh? What do the in-laws have to do with anything?

They are married a few months, his family don't like his WW anyway, now she's having an A, it seems as though he made a really bad choice here.

It's possible he can't see problems for himself when at this early stage of the M he is totally besotted

Um Vladie - they won't be the only inlaws who don't like their son/daughters of their choice of a mate.

Their opinion once the vows have been exchanged is irrelevant.

My in-laws HATED me. I got my revenge by outliving them!!

Agreed BigK! But in light of an A so early in the M maybe in this case they were right?

They have been together for seven years.

They may well have been right but he's a big boy and made his own decisions. In-laws are never entitled to mess with a marriage of their children.

Right or wrong is not the issue here.

They have been together for seven years. [/quote]

Yes but married for only a few months. I said at this early stage of the M.

FWIW, only once in their 2-year A did the OM and my FWW make any reference in their correspondence to having sex, and even then only obliquely. I think the OM knew that part of my FWW's way of "coping" with her choices was to simply not discuss them, and he played the role well.

And... that reference to "haven't EVEN kissed in over a month" suggests to me that something MORE than kissing has happened already.

BigK, I don't intend to get into a pi$$ing match with you. You have your opinions based on your experiences and I have mine, but the list above goes a long way in proving my point.

You see, with the Wonderings, there definately WAS an ultimatum, it just wasn't from Mr. Wondering ... and IT WORKED beautifully. I have seen both of the Wonderings post of the great strength and instincts displayed by Mrs. Wondering's mother in breaking up her A.

I don't see where Bob Pure has a M that could be described as Recovered by any definition, other than the fact that they are still married. I have a lot of empathy and respect for BP ... as I understand, he acted with a lot of strength upon discovery, but he lacked the other necessary ingredient ... a remorseful and recommitted WW.

This topic always brings up heated discussions when addressed, and I think it is obvious why many would get defensive, but if anyone here would take a big step back and view the data impartially, I feel the majority would agree that BH's who take definitive action, and refuse to be their WW's doormat, fare much better whether their recovery is marital or personal.

We can debate the qualities of a "strong" BH, but most of us can recognize the "weak" BH's here very quickly, and I am of the opinion that Plan A, etc. is terrible advice for the "weak" BH's as it just compounds the problems in their M that already exists and likely contributed to the A in the first place.

I've said my peace on the subject, and won't T/J tC9's thread anymore, plus I need to get away from the computer and get outside for a little "MyRev Sanity Maintenance" for myself and my bird dogs.

Have a good weekend.

"Real man"? Try "human being with at least a little self-respect". Once the BH knows about the affair, banging OM ONE MORE TIME AFTER THAT, whether they've had sex once or 1,000 times before d-day, should be unacceptable.



0 times is OK. 1 is worse than 0, 2 is worse than one, 3 is worse than 2...see the pattern here?


Huh? So, you should only keep your WW if you CAN handle one more time? Heck, why bother to try and end the affair at all?


Probably.

Who knows? If WS is remorseful and realizes the mistake and takes actions necessary to prevent it from happening again, I would say no. What about children? Real men is subjective, so each of us has a different definition of what makes "a real man". In my world, a real man would give his life for his wife and children (but not FWW, at least not yet).

But don't get me wrong, this question goes through my mind at least once a day (on a good day).

confused,

When you get the chance, you may want to pick up a few books on the importance of emotional intimacy to women. Most women, definitely me, need the romance and emotional connection to really desire and get into the physical intimacy. I can't speak for your wife, but just in case she is one of those women who has the terrible affliction of needing and wanting to be romanced by our husbands and to feel special to and receive affection by our husbands, it would do you a world of good to realize that that need can be just as important or even more so as the need for SF is to a lot of men.

And continuing this throughout a long term marriage is just as reasonable as continuing a satisfying SF relationship throughout a long term marriage is.

Krazy, I think you are missing the point. You advocate nuclear war for anybody that toelerates beyond YOUR personal boundary -- continued contact/sex.

All BS who are trying to reconcile try to rationalize in some way that their situation wasn't that bad BECAUSE (fill in the blank). My WW hadn't been with OM physically in three months on my D-day. Big deal, but I cling to that.

Other people's boundaries might be different, stronger or weaker.

TC9, you may still be able to get some of their emails even if they go online. Once you know her email account info through the keylogger, see if that mail system has support for automatic mail forwarding. I know gmail and yahoo both do (you may have to upgrade for yahoo). Set her account to forward it to your own account. You won't be able to see what she sends, but you'll get all the mail he sends her.

Do not use your own email as the forwarded address. Make it something official sounding. Like, if her email is ww@gmail.com, make your address ww-virusscanner@gmail.com. That way if she does see it, it will look like it's supposed to be there.

that is a pretty good idea.


My email access situation has changed in the last few days, since I pressured her to show me her account. She has since agreed to give me her password, but is no longer using that account to contact OM. But, I was able to find out OM's new email address before she agreed to give me access.

The problem right now is that she hasn't used any new email accounts on our home computer yet. From that I can only draw 2 conclusions, 1) that she decided not to contact the OM anymore via email, or 2) she is suspicious that I am using a keylogger and only signing into that account from work. I am leaning toward scenario 2.

I feel very much in the dark now that I don't have any email info.

MIM,



I see what you are saying here, but it wasn't the lack of discussion about SF, it was the active discussion of weather or not either of them wanted to go forward with SF that leads me to believe that haven't gone all the way yet. Maybe this is foolish on my part, but it does help keep me going that 'maybe' i caught this just in time.

The only ultimatum given in our situation went to the OM...Mr. W and my mom conspired together to do this...I was completely unaware that it happened until more than a year after the fact...That worked beautifully in our situation, yes...Mr. W was not the "villain" in my eyes because I didn't know what had happened to cause the "dumping" of me by OM and our recovery was greatly aided by that...

I would not advocate that an ultimatum be given to an active WW...Especially in an affair where there has been an emotional attachment established between the WW and OM...The addiction factor is INCREDIBLY STRONG in those situations - WW is now in the "I can't not do it" phase...Unless the BH is prepared to go forth with the ultimatum that is, because if the ultimatum is thrown down and doesn't create the scenario that the BH is hoping for [WW immediately ending the affair], then he has effectively painted himself into a corner and if he doesn't follow through with his "threat" he is in a seriously weak position...

Being able to do Plan A is a position of the utmost strength, imo - a hero's gig...I am completely awed by those that undertake it...Self worth/Self respect are NOT things that are tied to another person...those things are derived solely from SELF [or should be]...Plan A is an ACTION, it is not a REACTION...

Mrs. W

Ahh....I think you are lucky. I wish I'd put in a keyboard logger 4 months before I did...

For Gmail:


Be creative. You can find her new email address and password.

Good idea, but if I reset her password, she'll know i found the account.

What if the secondary email address is WW's work?

her primary email she has been using is work, but i have access to that. Unfortunately, I just tried the above mentioned technique, and there are no google accounts associated with her work account.

What about Yahoo? Hotmail? Those are the main ones.

Also, if her work email is cie732@university.edu, try cie732@gmail.com.

Hopefully she is lazy and just uses the same password.

Looked at hotmail, but hotmail is now part of Windows Live and I didn't see any link to recover a lost username. I tried testing yahoo's username recovery by setting up my own yahoo account, but even when i knew all the required information, it still didn't find the account i had just setup. Maybe it takes a little while for the system to update after making a new account.

her university email is just last name followed by first initial, and we have a very common last name, so i am sure all of those are taken at the most common webmail sites.

<bump> TC how are u?

Mike,

I'm doing ok. The weekend went pretty well. Convinced WW to read His Need, Her Needs like Steve H suggested, but so far, she hasn't cracked it open yet. She still isn't open to the idea of talking to a counselor yet.

The bad news is that I think I may have lost my email access. I still have access to her work account, but since Tuesday there have been no emails between them. Normally, this would be a good thing, but since the last email I saw was to an alternate account of his, the only thing I can assume is that they are using different email accounts now. However, she hasn't logged into any other email account other than her normal work account since Tuesday, so I think that she is assuming I am using a keylogger, probably OM's suggestion, and only using it while at work. So, I am totally in the dark right now and not sure what to do.


Anyone ever use a remote keylogger that installs itself on a remote PC through email? This is the only way I can think of finding out her new email account and password since she isn't using it at home. The only problem with using one of those is that I could probably be illegal since it would automatically install itself on a university owned computer and then transmit information to me.

TC, it would be smart if you put a little signature summary in like some of us have, since it is hard to keep all these plotlines straight. Be wordy and complete since you are in an active situation and can use correct timely advice.

is that better?

Any ideas on how to get my my email access back? It is a horrible feeling knowing that they are probably still emailing and not being able to read any of it.

You probably can't legally get email access back. You are going to have to track your WW and OM by other means. My best bet would be a GPS on her car to figure out where their meeting place might be. Then you need to catch them together and expose again to OMW and their employer. Tell them you know they are using company property to continue their affair and are sending sexually explicit emails "from what you have heard."

One way that you might get email access back is to get OMW to break into OM's account and find the address he is sending the emails to. But you would need to expose to OMW first. Then you can take those emails, legally print them out and show them to HR, and not have to worry about breaking into their server because yahoo/gmail accounts can be accessed through your home.

I know his new email address, it is a gmail account. And, I think I have figured her new account out by checking what usernames are and aren't available on gmail, it would be difficult to explain. I have tried to guess the password to this account based on other password she has used, but no luck so far. I can try the password recover option and hopefully i might know the answer to her security question, but if I don't, I can't try again for 5 days.

I have though about contacting the OMW to get her to figure it out on her side, but S Harley said to hold off on telling her because she will likely just confront her H about my call rather than play along. The last time I exposed to her I asked her not to tell her H immediately, but she did anyway.

any recommendations on a good GPS tracker?

I never had to use one, but if you post a thread on the subject, I'm sure you will get plenty of replies.

er.....what would Harley say about all this surveillance effort?

I know after my w agreed to NC, we did all the usual steps with passwords and her telling me where she was, etc.

But Jennifer H told me "Look, maybe she is gaming us, maybe not. We'll know eventually if she stops working on your ENs."

Well, in my case W admitted to seeing him at a store and talking, and I then got the truth out of her that there had been several phone calls.

But I think my point is that Jennifer sort of made sure I was on the reconciling husband track and not the private investigator track, if that makes sense.

yeah, that makes sense, but Steve said that it is best if I keep watching the emails to make sure that she isn't just saying the right things to get me off her back. Her last email to the OM's new account complained a little about having to answer to me when she got home, so I am thinking that she is just playing nice so I stop bothering her.

However, she has been trying to meet more of my ENs. I am just suspicious that it is all a front, and since I have no way of knowing for sure, all I can do is wonder at this point.

are you getting back with Steve?

yeah, he said to make another appointment in 10 days. So, first appt was on the 4th, so i'm shooting for the 15th.

He said in the meantime try to get WW to make her own appointment with him just to see what he has to say. So far, she has said no about talking to that.


Until then I am just planning on not acting suspicious in any way, then maybe she will let her guard down and think it is ok to use the home computer. On the other hand, is she does suspect I am using a keylogger, maybe i should stay paranoid and ask her to show me her work email every day. That way she may think that I really don't have the ability to look at it on my own.

this feels so stupid having to play these games, but without any real evidence, any confrontation will only be a big LB without any sort of results because they'll both be able to say that they haven't been in contact, and then they'll both offer up their work email accounts to me and the OMW as proof.

So, It has been a week since my first session with Steve H. My assignment for the next 10 days was to encourage my wife to do some "research" with me about what it takes to build a strong marriage, and mention to her that I met with Steve and that I think he has some good ideas, but would like her to talk to him to see if she agrees. I am not supposed to make demands, or get angry, or lecture her, but instead use respectful persuasion (Steve's words).

So far, she has said no to talking with Steve or any other counselor, and has reluctantly agreed to read through His Needs Her Needs. But, she hasn't read a page yet, and every time I bring up the subject of learning how successful marriages work, I can tell she is just humoring me and doesn't intend to do any sort of research.

My next appointment with Steve is on Monday. he said that after 10 days or so, if she isn't showing any signs or willingness to learn, that we'll have to do something else.

My wife is the type of person that doesn't take any form of advice unless it is from someone she respects in her career, i.e. boss, professor, more experienced colleague. She never takes any advice from me, or any of her family members, so needless to say, I am having an extremely difficult time trying to convince her to take advice from a stranger about our marriage, or from a book or website. Does anyone have any experience dealing with someone like this?

Yes, every single BS :-)

'Educating' was a huge LB for me because I was so into MB and she was (Round One in 2001) withdrawn and (Round Two in 2008)really hung up on OM and not interested in the marriage.

In round One I said, "Look, whether we stay together or not, talk to this guy for an hour with me, it will make us both better at relationships, whether it is together or not". Round Two of our counseling she agreed because it was that or get kicked to the curb. Even though she didn't catch fire and get into it, we learned a lot about each others LBs, ENs, etc.

Steve and Jennifer also have a way of showing WW, from all their experience, they know exactly how they feel, and they aren't judgemental. they are totally forward looking not laying guilt on the WS. So if you get them on the phone it is often worth it.

MB, of course, is really important for the person doing Plan A, normally the BS. It doesn't surprise me your W has no interest in marital reconciliation while the OM is still in the picture. P

I'll be interested to see what Steve says is the next step.

yes, the educating does seem to be a big LB. I have told her that I have done a lot of reading (I didn't mention this site), but she just tells me that its stupid do just blindly follow everything I read on the internet. She would just rather follow no plan at all and get back to 'normal' and try to 'work' things out, which is even more idiotic.

She has been more attentive to my needs lately, but most of the time I just think she is doing that to keep me from bugging her about the A.

Well....I think when a BS has both the BS and the OP trying to mee their needs, they try to cake eat and keep them both in the picture.


Well, if she is in the fog, she probably has 5 emotions about every action she takes anyway, so don't subscribe an intelligent plan to anything she does.

Just accept the EN effort and compliment/thank her.

Thank you, that definitely seems like the best way to approach it.



As for my continued plan A, should I continue to ask her to show me her email? She doesn't like doing it and says I need to stop being so paranoid and that I have nothing to worry about.

there was another thread out there about how to properly execute plan A. One of the suggestions was to show up at her work unannounced to take her to lunch, or meet for dinner. I am thinking of starting to do this, but predict that it might be a big LB. She was pretty pissed the day I followed her to work and found them having lunch together, but I guess this is following the 'stick' part of plan A.

When are you scheduled with Steve?

I sort of doubt he wanted you to wave sticks in that ten day period.

I find that meeting ENs is easy. Avoiding LBs is very difficult to me, as I'm sarcastic and have a temper. I didn't even realize some of the LBs I was launching were LBs.

My advice would be to lay back and just work on ENs until you talk to Steve again.

If contact with OM continues then this is precisely what her motive will be. To placate you.

My WW is no different. She loves hanging out with me, doing fun things, having sex, and going to family functions so long as I'm "pleasant" i.e. don't talk about her adultery.

That is the general feeling that I am getting.

I haven't used an 'sticks' since my first meeting with steve. But, they still occasionally email and I have evidence that they may be meeting at work in the afternoons. It has been really hard not to say anything.

Had my second session with Steve this morning.

He recommended continuing Plan A while trying to get WW on board with educating ourselves with what makes a successful marriage. I asked him about the 'stick' part of plan A and he said don't do any of that right now.

I was fine with this plan up until I saw an email today that suggests they have started, or are about to start, some form of a physical relationship again.

I'd really like to talk to Steve about this, but we just spoke this morning.

so confused.....

You need to show up at OM's door and show a copy of the emails to OMW so she can nip this in the butt. I bet OM will have to start looking for another job.

Whatever you do, do not let your WW and OM take their relationship to the next step because you will hate her and hate yourself for allowing it to happen.

What did the email say?

You can understand that Steve wants you to understand the MB program before taking pro-active and dramatic measures. But if it is an emil that says "Darling, only now am I ready to give myself to you sexually.." well, dang, time for action, I'm sure Steve would agree.

Your confused?? Well so am I! What kind of plan is Steve giving here. Plan sit back while your WW continues her A and do nothing?
This advice goes against everything we recommend on this board. Anyone want to take a stab at this? Steve?

I've counseled with Steve and Jennifer, and you have to put yourself in their shoes.

You can't yell "jump!" to every first caller. There is a program there and you have to have a basic understanding before you try Plan A or Plan B.

Almost every first call they get is someone in agony over a real or imagined affair. The reality is, the betrayed person on the phone probably doesn't have the facts, because the one consistent part of affairs is secrecy and lying, and WS are great at it.

I can understand Steve's reticence at permanent and decisive action in these initial calls. That is why I suggested that he be shown real evidence.

during this morning's session, I told steve that they were still in email contact, but at that point, everything had been just friendly conversation. He told me it would be healthier if I stopped checking the email so often.

Then, this afternoon, they were emailing back and forth, and discussed how they needed to be very careful, and delete all sent and received emails. OM said that he was paranoid that somehow I could still be watching the emails, and that he didn't want to "learn the hard way."

They also vaguely discussed what they did Friday afternoon. OM asked WW if "it was good for her" WW said it was. OM asked WW to meet him this afternoon, but WW said she would make him wait. They also discussed a good place at work to meet during the afternoons because that building is usually pretty empty later in the day.

I think I am going to call Steve's office tomorrow morning to see if I could just chat for 5 mins, or maybe he would respond to an email.

I definitely can't just sit around while they progress their physical relationship.

No, you can't. You need to blow this wide open now. So sorry you're going through this

Here is the transcript (slightly abridged) from today's emails. Looks to me like they have no intention of ending things, and it appears things are escalating or will be very soon.




Looks to me like something clearly happened on Friday, and will very likely continue to happen.

You guys see anything else in this conversation?

bump

I'm sorry, TC. But I don't see any reason to stay with this woman. She will only drag you down.

I realize that my advice is not wholly in keeping with the Harley plans. But I'm good with that in this case.

Your WW is clearly screwing OM at work in an mostly empty building on the campus. It is time to tell OMW and their employer (who cares where you got the info, I'm sure they'll be interested to hear that their employees are having sex at work). Then I would proceed to dump your WW's sorry @ss. You have no kids. You shouldn't be putting up with this crap. If you do stay married to her, she needs to leave that job ASAP, get tested for STDs, and be fully open, transparent, and committed to working on the marriage including MC. Otherwise, I would head straight for divorce. You chose poorly marrying this one. We all make mistakes.

i guess I need to keep Steve advice in perspective. his goal is to save the marriage, maybe even in cases where it shouldn't be saved. His plan so far has been to educate myself and WW about what makes a successful marriage. I was fine with that plan when the only contact between them was casual email conversation, but after yesterday's emails, I can't bare to go home, look her in the eye, and honestly work hard on 'educating' her about what makes a successful marriage.

Steve's advice for people in my situation, no kids, younger, is that plan B and ultimatums often backfire, since there are no kids or long term marriage in the mix and it is just easier for the WS to cut their losses and walk. But, if she is willing to just walk away and throw away 7 years of her life with me, is she a person I really want to spend my life with? It is hard to come to that realization, but I am getting closer. It is extremely difficult to imagine my life without her when she has been such a constant presence for 7 years.

TC, when I began posting to you, I thought you had a repentant FWW. Then it became clear that there's nothing "Formerly" about her status. Her affair is ongoing. Indeed it appears to be picking up speed.

I guess I'm a little baffled by Steve's advice to educate someone who seems only to be interested in keeping you in the dark as to her activities and continues to keep secret emails accounts, etc. Exactly how are you supposed to do this?

I don't think that you can educate someone like that, but you can make yourself crazy trying to do so. She's not interested in education, she's interested in compartmentalization.

You mention that you have been "together" for 7 years, but I was under the impression that you were recently married. How long have you been married? Married is much different than "together".

There's something very scary about someone like your wife who, upon exposure, can just push an affair further underground while lying to your face. It's a far cry from someone who is repentant upon discovery.

I know where you are coming from. I was 26 when I was in your exact situation, only my WW's A hadn't progressed yet to SF (probably because of her own sexual issues and dysfunction). I had been with my WW 6 years at the time, and married 3 years. I can tell you recovery, especially with someone who isn't going to be very remorseful at first, sucks. It took my WW about a year to even start working on the marriage again. We still have issues with her sexual dysfunction that have not gotten any better. Right now, I'm very angry with her. If my 28-year-old self had gone back in time to my 26-year-old self, he probably would advise me to dump my WW and move on. Just because my marriage has survived the infidelity does not mean in will survive the other issues that led up to the infidelity. What is to say that this behavior will ever change? Because you want it too? You are young and have your whole life in front of you. Don't waste any more time toiling for your marriage if your WW will not agree to your conditions. The only reason that I am still married is becaue my WW agreed to my conditions when I told her I was filing for D, even though she wasn't strong enough to maintain NC completely at first. I know I am not going to be with my FWW past 30 if things do not improve in my situation, even though we've been together since I was 20. Sometimes you have to cut your losses and move on.

I thought so too, until the emails started again last week. Before friday they were casual emails.


My guess is that Steve's goal is to get my wife on the phone to try to "sell" her in the MB principles becuase recommending full blown exposure.




Very try. She is very good at it too. Even before this, if one part of her life isn't going well, there never seems to be any affect on other parts of her life, especially work.



This is what is worrying me more and more every day that this thing cannot be saved.

Her sexual dysfunction was one of the major things that led to the decline of our relationship. In the last year before we got married, SF would only happen about once every 3-4 weeks. That is just not normal. We had discussed the problem, and she just thought that there was something wrong with her, that she never felt "in the mood". I wasn't thrilled about the infrequency of SF, but if that was the way she was, I learned to accept it.

Right before the wedding and during the A, her libido picked up, and in conversations about the A, she admitted that she had no idea she had more of a sex drive until she met OM. At first, I didn't any evidence that they had been physical, so I gave in to her advances when I thought we were in recovery. Now it just makes me sick.....

jmwc95

How did you expose the A? Was it a workplace A?

Well guess what then, even if you are going to recover from this affair, two years from now you will probably only be getting laid once every 3-4 weeks, and your marriage might start declining again. Guess what? She'll probably start cheating again. Find someone without all the issues and baggage. Trust me. This is your out. No one will fault you for it. Plus, if your WW is anything like mine, once you show that you are serious about leaving, she'll end it with OM because she'll be afraid about losing you.

I exposed it to everyone that WW knew, and even her workplace. OM and my FWW used to work together, but by the time I found out and exposed, OM had already moved and left the company. He was trying to get her to follow him. My WW said she would never forgive me for risking her career by exposing to her boss, but she got over it once she was over withdrawal of OM.

my WW has already warned me that she won't be able to forgive me is tell her work. WW is in a unique situation with her job because she works in such a small industry where everybody knows everybody. If she were to changed jobs (would require us to move to a different state) she would still interact with the people from her old job multiple times a year.

I am almost positive that she will pick her career over me, but if that is the case, then I am just wasting my time anyway, so why not expose, right? She would probably quit on her own rather that face her co-workers that know she is responsible for breaking up a marriage with 2 young kids (OM's).

She manipulating you and emotionally blackmailing you into allowing her to continue her affair. Don't believe anything a wayward says. She's the one jeopardizing her career by banging a married coworker with kids in an empty room at work. There is nothing unethical or immoral about exposing to her work.

Here is how you do it:

You to HR: "From what I know about the situation, if you check WW's and OM's deleted emails, you will find that WW and OM have been having sex in Building X room Y. I'm not saying how I know, but I know."

Your WW has no idea whether of not she can forgive you, even though you haven't done anything wrong. She is just projecting her regret with herself onto you. Let me tell you this. If you can forgive her for banging OM, she CAN forgive you for telling her work. That doesn't mean she will. She might rather blame all her problems on you instead of deal with them herself. If that's the case, you shouldn't stay married to her anyway.

don't think that will work. they delete all messages, then delete them from the deleted items folder, then delete them from the "items available for recovery folder". Unless the email system is set up to save those messages for a certain period of time, they won't find anything. And hinting I have access to their emails would open me up to legal action from the university since I obtained her password with a keylogger. Doubt they would prosecute, but they could if they wanted.

I was planning on saying something similar, but just say that the A is taking place on university time in university building using university resources. That should start some sort of investigation which would probably start with email, i would think.

I think my plan for exposure will be to call OMW again, and tell her about the latest email. From what I have heard from WW, if OMW finds out that the A is continuing, she is divorcing OM. Do you think I should call OM's parents, I found them on google. I also found his sister. When exposing at work, I know I should send the letter to HR and other higher up people, but should I also include her bosses? I have meet them a few times and they all think she is the best of the research fellows they have. I would be afraid that they might want to sweep this thing under the rug for fear of losing her.

Please, I'm sure like any business, the university stores that stuff on a server which can easily be obtained by any company IT guy. That is why you never do anything illegal over email, you can never get rid of it completely except destroying the server hardware. Most companies don't like doing that. They won't prosecute you, and you never admitted to anything.


I would add that you "think" they are using company email to meet up because you have been tracking your cell phone and personal email.


I would tell everyone you know on OM's side, and tell them that you are doing it so you can work on your own marriage without his interference. On your exposure to her employer, I would at least include her boss and someone high up in HR who doesn't personally know your WW who wouldn't care enough about her to try and sweep it under the rug for her.

They are at a training seminar lunch right now, I'd really like to send him taunting text messages like "you should have been more carefull..." or "hope you enjoyed last friday afternoon with my wife, because it is about to get extremely for you..."

I probably shouldn't do that though. Probably best for him to get calls from his parents, sister, boss, and wife all at the same time.

Yep. When are you going to expose?

I don't think I could forgive myself if I waited and then found out through email that they had another rendezvous that I could have prevented.

I would like to chat with Steve before I do it, and have left him a message, but I haven't heard anything from him yet.

Would you recommend I hire a lawyer at this point?

There is no need to chat with Steve unless you just want to blow another $185. Steve is a save the marriage at all costs guy. You don't have kids, so there should be no reason for you to try and save this at all costs. They will have another rendezvous unless you act now.

You don't have any kids, and probably have barely any marital property to speak of since you've only been married a short time. You also don't need to worry about support since your marriage is so brief. I think you can wait to hire a lawyer until you are sure you want to file because you really have nothing to lose.

There isn't much other than the house. The mortgage is in my name, but her name is on the deed with mine. We bought it a year and half ago before she started her job, so she isn't on the loan since she hadn't started work at that point, and has a ton of student loans.

Why would you post this?

Exposure is a strategy to save the marriage. TC has already briefed one of the best counselors in the world. Steve responds to emergency situations, I'm sure he will get back. TC just has to tell him he is at the end of his rope, and I'm sure Steve will coach him re: exposure.

Personally, I would get the OM's W on the phone and get her that email. The OM is obviously terrified of that.

But wait for Steve. You have to know WHAT YOU WANT out of exposure. This was exposed once and it just drove it underground. Do it right and have a list of demands.

That will all be sorted out when you file. It doesn't matter whether or not she is on the loan. You split the marital debts. You won't be responsible for her student loans before you were married, but she will be responsible for half the house, since her name is on it. I'm sure she'll be in for quite a rude awakening if the house has LOST value over this time. Don't worry, the lawyer will sort this all out.

Part of ending her affair is exposing her to REAL consequences. Having to deal with financial hardship and having to adjust her standard of living, as well as the possibility of losing her job will snap her out of the fantasyland of her affair. Just go ahead an expose. You are risking another sexual encouter by waiting.

her is my list so far:

1) NC letter
2) resign from job
3) MC
4) IC
5) polygraph (maybe)
6) STD test


any other ideas?

I was saying that he doesn't need to spend another $185 to get Steve's blessing on exposure. He knows he needs to do it. Steve is going to err on the conservative, "don't rock the boat" side, to give his marriage a better shot of surviving. But at what cost? He doesn't have any children. He's just been married for less than a year. There is no reason for him to put himself through a prolonged six month plan A followed by a 2 year plan B if he is a 26-year-old in a < 1 year marriage while his WW bangs OM at work. He should stop it now, with or without Steve's blessing.

1) NC letter
2) Quit job
3) MC and possibly IC including sex therapy at a future date if necessary
4) Full openness, honesty, and transparency (cell phone and email passwords, accounting for her time, up to and including polygraph if you don't think she is coming clean)
5) STD test
6) Post-nuptual (I wouldn't want you having kids with this woman without some kind of deal in place should she wander again).
7) No opposite sex relationships. Talking to men at work about work is the limit. No discussion of personal matters.

She can take it or leave it. Just because she leaves it at first, doesn't mean she won't come crawling back once you show that you are prepared to move forward. Sometimes people need to experience consequences before they change their behavior.

Total tranparency. Give you access to her computer, cell phone, phone records, emails, home office, etc. This was big for my H when I offered him access to anything and everything that in the past had been considered private.

She needs to tell you where she's going and with whom she is when she leaves the house. You need permission to call her at anytime.

Be able to carry and use her cell phone at anytime.

If she feels she does need to have something private (say a place in the house where she wants to hide your Christmas gift or if she has a GIRLfriend who needs privacy for personal matter), your W needs to be able to show/explain it to your satisfaction, otherwise the deal is off. Others may not agree with this, but my example... My sister is going through a very tough, painful, and personal issue right now. My H is very aware of it but doesn't know all of the details as my sister wishes. She is asking for confidentiality on some things. Therfore, I put all of her correspondence in a folder in my email. My H will look in that folder only with me present and can quickly scan the "from" addresses so that he doesn't put me in any position of violating my sister's fragile trust. He feels comfortable with this arrangement.

steve is calling me around 2 for a quick 5 minute chat, so it shouldn't cost me $195.

The should still be in their seminar at 2, so no worries about anything happening in the meantime.

talked to steve. He said definitely tell OMW and WW's parents and sisters. He cautioned against telling work, citing the fact that since we don't have children, it would end up driving her further away, making it easier to walk away.

If one or both of them don't leave their job, it will continue. Telling her work may be the best way to separate them. Yes, telling work may make it easier for her to walk away, but not telling them will make you more likely to walk away. Are you afraid of losing her anymore, or do you just want this to be over one way or the other?

Oh, and I would be sure to contact OM's parents as well.

I am getting less and less afraid of losing her. When talking with steve, he made a good point:

(paraphrased)

He said "A lot of people think I am pro marriage, and i don't like that label. I would say that I am pro happiness. The ideal situation for you and your wife is to fall deeply in love again right? So, the goal here is for you to focus all of your energy toward that goal. When you have no energy left, and you still are not deeply in love with your wife, it will be easy to walk away, and you won't second guess yourself, wondering if you did everything you could. If you drive her away by airing dirty laundry, and she ends up walking away while you still have energy left, you may end up second guessing yourself forever wondering if you did everything you could."

He said that workplace exposure works better for people with kids, because no matter if they stay married or not, they will always be connected through the kids, making it way harder to walk away.

He reminded me that the actions I take need to focus on getting support for our marriage, and OM and OMW's. Telling people for the sake of making her uncomfortable at work, will likely drive her away.

Encourage OMW to put that boundry on him -- HE has to quit.
Make him be the one to give up the job. If he wants to save his family....

Then you aren't the bad guy for exposing her at work -- and yet you are able to seperate them!

Do this FAST TC. Don't let the physical stuff escalate -- its much harder for men to recover from that.

At this point, I wouldn't worry much about losing your source. She either gets on board and becomes an open book, or its done.

The goal of exposure to work is to get OM, your WW, or both to no longer work together so there is no longer the chance for contact, accidental or otherwise. If you expose to OMW and your WW's family, and she still does not leave her job, you will be left with no choice to expose to her employer. Her affair w/ OM threatens your marriage more than exposure to work does. If OMW starts to divorce OM, and OM and your WW both still work together, exposure to OMW without exposure to her employer will only HURT your chances. Don't be afraid to use it if you have to (i.e. they both still work together).

Other than that, I agree with what Steve said. I would expose to OMW today before OM and your WW get home. Let us know how it turns out.

yes, i realize this. The goal is to separate them without work exposure, by me at least.


If what WW tells me is true, OMW will D OM when she finds out, and since they both know a lot of people at work, it will get out at work without me having to tell.


Just called OMW a few minutes ago and left a message, also sent her an email, hopefully she calls back.

Interesting.

Job one for me on D-day was the work. I didn't think there was anyway this would work for anyone, especially me, knowing they were at the same place everyday.

I'm curious....did he say talk to her and give her a chance to meet your "demands" prior to exposing? I guess that would give her the opportunity to run around first and get her own story out.

Personally, I think the only exposure you will need is the OM's W. From that chat log he seems terrified of that. She took strong action before, making him change to a division farther away in the complex or something like that? I'm sure she'll be the driver for some change like that.

From personal experience, I would try to get her on the phone rather than just drop some mail. OM will try and explain everything away.

I got on D-day 2 (contact) with the OM's W, and she yelled at me that I was harassing them. Then I calmly explained the continued contact, with the OM loudly denying in the background. Then my W got on and admitted the contact. ONLY THEN did the OM's W believe the truth.

Was Steve specific about how to do it? Use the chat logs? Or keep them secret?

I'd be interested to know, since I simply went nuts on D-day and told everyone in her life.

That is a big if, buddy. How would WW know what is going on in OMW's head. You should learn to never listen to a WW.

the only reason i believe this is because she told me this when trying to save her own job. She was pleading with me not to tell OMW because that would lead to divorce, which would lead to trouble for her at work.

meh....she didn't before. Everyone says they will immediatel;y divorce or kill or whatever. She won't.


What did the email say?

He just said to tell her what i know, and if she doesn't believe me, then offer to send the emails.




I called and left a message, then sent an urgent email for her to call me. All I said was that we need to talk about WW and OMW.

OMW's cell is turned off.

I want to call their house phone, but don't want my # to show up on the caller ID. Anyone know how to block your number from a cell phone?

*67 on my system

test it by calling one phone from another.

*67 doesn't work for AT&T wireless. It wouldn't even place the call.

apparently, caller Id blocking is a feature you must purchase.

Might be *82 on AT&T

call went through with *82, but my number was visible. That might be the code for blocking the name only.

I believe it was *69 for AT&T. I thought *67 was for redialing the last number to call you. Either way, show up at her house if you have to.

I was wrong, I had it backwards. They might have a feature on their phone to block out private callers (i.e. usually telemarketers).

AT&T doesn't allow for anonymous calling anymore, and most anonymous calls are blocked. Who cares if you number shows up. You'll get in touch with OMW eventually if you are persistent.

i called the house from my work phone, it just rang, and rang, and rang. I guess nobody is home.

well shi!t, OMW's cell is turned off, she hasn't returned my email, and nobody is answering their house phone. I really don't want to go home tonight without telling OMW.

Stop by and pay her a visit. OM will pee his pants.

they live 2 hours from where i am now. And with the snow, probably closer to 3.

Or shoot you. Bad idea.

looks like i'll be going home tonight without telling the OMW. I don't want to confront WW about anything until the OMW knows, because the first thing she will do is warn OM, and then tell me not to tell OMW. I think it is probably just better to act like nothing is wrong until the OMW knows, you guys agree? I am also going to re-expose to WW's mother and sisters, but want to wait on them too, since they will call her immediately, and then she will again tell me not to tell OMW.

Yes, but you can also expect that OM's W will confront OM tonite and ask why you are calling.

I don't think it much matters, you've set it in motion.

This thread is a classic example of how not to deal with a WW, and I can't believe that Steve Harley is recommend this action

Ok, I'll bite.

Why is recommending exposure in an affair that is about to go physical a bad move?

Quite the opposite actually. Steve recommended no exposure the first time (everyone here was screaming to expose) and only recommended exposure to OM's W. This needs to be blown open expose at work, everywhere

I still have no idea how to get a hold of OMW. Her cell has been turned off since yesterday, it goes straight to voicemail. The house phone just rings and rings, no answering machine, and she hasn't returned any of the emails. It appears that she just dropped off the face of the earth.

The only thing I can think of is that she is out of town for business, but there has been nothing in OM's emails to indicate that.

should i wait to re-expose to WW's mother and sisters until I talk to OMW? If her mother and sisters know, they will surely call WW, and she will be able to warn OM. I really don't feel like waiting until I talk to OMW I really don't know when that will be.

As hard as it is, I'd give the OM's W another day or two.

I wouldn't be surprised if your calls show up in the OM's chats with your WW before you hear from her.

so far this morning, there has been nothing in the emails that indicates he is suspicious.

Mispost.

The traffic on this thread has significantly decreased over the last week. There are now only 2 or 3 people that consistently reply. Thank you Mike_C2 and jmwc95.

To the rest of you who used to post on this thread, I'm sorry if I have frustrated you by not acting on your advice. Please understand that it is much more difficult for me to take the actions you are recommending than it is for you post them. That doesn't mean that I don't truly appreciate all of the time you have taken to help me out. Thank you for your help and concern over these past few weeks, and I invite you to please join the discussion again.

To update everyone to the current situation, WW and OM have begun a PA as of last Friday (12/12/08). I have discussed the situation with Steve Harley, and he recommends telling OMW and WW's mother and sister's (like you all recommended), but not to expose at work. His reasoning is that since we are younger and don't have kids, exposure for the purposes of airing dirty laundry will only drive WW further away. You can read my posts from yesterday to get a more detailed explanation of steve's position.

Yesterday, I tried to contact the OMW via her cell phone, home phone, and email, but haven't heard a thing. Her cell appears to be turned off since it goes straight to voicemail without ringing. Nobody answers the home phone and there is no answering machine. She hasn't yet returned my emails. It is almost like she doesn't exist anymore.

I have considered driving to their house, but they live 2 hours away form my work and an hour from my house. Driving there during the day would be a waste because she will be at work, and going there at night won't work because OM will be home too, and WW will expect me to be home with her.

I have though about getting a P.I. to find where she works and her work number, but haven;t contacted one yet to see how expensive that would be, and how long it would take.

Right now I am holding off on telling WW's mother and sisters, because once they know, the cat is out of the bag, they will contact WW, and then she can warn OM.


Thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread, and again, sorry for frustrating all of by not acting sooner. I could really use everyone's opinions on these new developments.

thanks again,
TC9

no, i would leave my cell on, but maybe she is somewhere that doesn't get cell service.

If she were not taking my calls, it would at least ring, unless she blocked my number from her account. The very first call went straight to vm, makes me think the phone is off. I guess there is a chance that OM blocked my #, but would it still go to voicemail if my # was blocked, i don't know?

I have also called her cell from my office phone, a number she wouldn't know, same thing, straight to vm.

I wouldn't read a lot into it. some people let their electronic communications lag for a few days, and I suspect a SAHM might be one in that category.

Send her an email return receipt requested.

Same EXCUSES, just a different day.

You will get replies, when you take some form of ACTION!!! People just get tired of wasting their time on someone who simply REFUSES to help themselves.

TC --

Do more research. Can you find OM's sister, parents, or other family members?

Maybe they could contact OMW and let her know she needs to speak to you?

Otherwise I would hire a PI and get more info. Now.
Before this gets worse....


And -- why haven't you confronted your wife? I think you need to do that -- you don't have to disclose your plan to expose OM to his wife.

i agree, I am in the process of taking action right now. It may not be exactly the action you are recommending, but I am doing something.

the first thing she will do is warn OM. The last time I confronted her, her first question was "have you told OMW."




I was able to find some of her family members. But, when I asked steve about exposing to OM and OMW's family, he said I should leave that up to OMW. I have called OMW's parents house just to see if I could get another # for her, but nobody answered.

Well, so far, it's been over 3 weeks and 28 pages of NOTHING.

Let us know when you are ready to START!!!