this is one i have so far:

What is the plan for achieving no contact between WW and OM? WW will have to leave her job for all possibility of contact to end. How can she possibly realize she needs to leave while still in the fog of an A? How can counseling or education on the MB concepts have any effect if she can still easily see OM multiple times a week at work?

This confusion is the reason that I think that a BS should consider going to IC in addition to marriage coaching w/the Harleys.

An IC can help the BS to evaluate whether the marriage should be saved. That's not really the job of the marriage coach.

Just my .02

ETA: I still remember one poster who shall remain nameless, who was counseled for a very long time by Jennifer. Her husband had been absent for years and was living w/OW in another state. It became clear that this poster really needed IC, not marriage counseling.

TC, let me be clear that I am NOT placing you in the same category.

Well, let's see, I went through a few counseling sessions with Jen in September on NC.

First off, I think you need a WS who is at least going to pledge NC, although they may slip and contact again (mine did).

Once they pledge NC, the Harley's explain the reasoning for the open lifestyle -- it is to not only help the BS regain some confidence that the A is over, but it is also to help the WS get over little bumps of temptation, like an email or a cell phone call.

But the BS needs to have all that info, email accounts and passwords, cell phone records, etc. Furthermore, the WS needs to keep BS apprised of her travels, whereabouts, etc. My W takes a kid on most shopping trips, and also texts me where she is.

None of this means the WW won't/can't go to a landline or pass messages through a mutual friend or rendezvous....it is just to give NC the best chance.

I suppose that As have been overcome with both APs staying employed at the same place, but I'm sure it is huge factor against, and it certainly should be Item One.

TC --

Did you see my post?

I really strongly encourage you to implement the STICK.
Enough carrot already!

Your wife will not end the affair, has faced no consequences of continuing the affair, and like I said in my previous post -- Steve is not going to suddenly convince her to stop!

She is not going to END the affair until it is UNCOMFORTABLE for her to continue the affair.

I agree that poster needed psychological help, but in Dr. Chalmers defense, that poster was LYING to her about very pertinent details about her H and her marriage. I would add that Jennifer is a licensed psychologist.

I knew something was VERY WRONG in that case when that poster reported that her H had thrown a dog up against the wall in the past. She didn't tell us that little factoid for a very long time and that was just a small snapshot of a bigger, more sordid picture.

I don't know if Steve and Jennifer tell people their marriages shouldn't be saved, but Dr Harley does tell people they need to get a divorce and/or separate.

she has said that she will not contact him over personal matters, but that occasionally, their work requires that they email or talk over the phone. I am beginning to learn that OM's job change was really only a small move and that their responsibilities still overlap some. So, for her to truly pledge NC, she will need to leave her job.




I do have all of this info to keep tabs on her. After D-day 1, she changed her password, but after wednesday, she has not. This does not make me feel better because she can easily use work phones or a new internet email to contact OM.



I forgot to post this before, but I did also re-expose to WW's sister on Wednesday, and she then told WW's mother. I usually call WW's sister about things now because her mother is not as impartial, still makes excuses for WW, and even talk about how much she worries about OMW and their kids. I feel bad for their kids too, but their father made his choices, I didn't. Anyway, I did not get the reaction I expected. They were blown away because they thought everything was going well, but they also said that WW's lies had become too emotionally exhausting, and they they were done trying to reach out to her. They said they would be there for me any time i want to talk, but that WW needs to figure this out on her own since she has lied repeatedly to them and disregarded their advice.

WW's parents divorced due to her father's infidelity, so i can understand it is difficult to watch their daughter/sister follow in his footsteps. I just didn't expect them to abandon her so soon. It makes me wonder if there is something wrong with me that I am still willing to work at this, when they are quiting already.

Yep. That is unacceptable.


Also yep.


That is sort of what I got from my w's sister. First time, shock, sympathy, we'll talk to her. Second D-day (contact), well, WW is apparently temporarily insane, but she is my sister, and since this riff is continuing we are not going to side against her.

Basically, I think you will see that the worse the marital issues look, the further away the WW's family will slide from involvement.

This is sort of the reality check you get when people keep saying 'expose, expose!" You did expose. Twice now. Pretty soon it is cry wolf.

The exception being with the OM'sW who can actually bring pressure from the other side.

Yes, i saw your post. I asked steve about the STICK of plan A, and he said that while the stick part is talked about a lot on these forums, it isn't exactly part of the MB plan A. He told me not to implement the stick because it will just drive WW further away. Maybe after he talks to her, he will make a recommendation for further exposure, but right now he cautioned against exposing for the purposes humiliating WW and OM. I know this is contrary to many of the opinions on this forums, but for now I am going to stick with his plan.

I agree that Steve will not be able to suddenly convince her to stop, but I think he needs to speak with her in order to recommend the most appropriate action.

I appreciate that you are following Steve's advice, but I encourage you to keep thinking for yourself. Steve doesn't know all the developments, and if I were you I wouldn't put all my hopes and dreams into the "steve basket".

Steve is not going to do something magic that will end her affair. She can't be TALKED OUT OF THIS. Having an affair is not a logical choice, it is an EMOTIONAL choice.

And I also have to mention that continually trying to educate her is going to piss her off.

When I said "stick" TC I wasn't advocating exposure. In fact, from what you have said about her career and schooling I agree that if you were to expose her she would be finished with you. What an enormous risk she was willing to take for this affair...

When I mean STICK I mean some of the other consequences. Like losing you. Like no financial support. Like you actuallying getting pissed off about her activities (has it occured to you that it is not normal to be so passive about this? aren't you mad?)

Agree. In this case the fault was more with the poster who was using the Harley method as an excuse to hang on to a mirage of a marriage. We only counseled w/Steve, so I don't really know if his technique differs from the others.

I'm not, but I would like to hear Steve's recommendation after he talks to WW and gets both sides of the story.

If, after following Steve plan for a bit, there is no form of progress, I intend to ask for a separation. But, before that happens, I need to make sure I do a good plan A.




Getting and staying mad is something I need to work on. I am pissed about her activities, but that feeling usually quickly gives way to a need to heal and fix things. The problem with staying pissed off at her, is that is prevents me from doing a good plan A.



Steve has mentioned this as well. So far, I have told her that I am not willing to work on our marriage without some sort of plan. I explained that since d-day in late october we have been "working" on things without any plan, and that I can't do that anymore. I told her I have talked with Steve, and that he has some material i think makes a lot of sense (MB basic concepts), but that I would like her opinion on it. I am just presenting it right now as a possible plan, and told her that I am open to all suggestions if she has other ideas for a plan. I am not sitting her down and making her read the stuff.

First of all, that is not NC. Secondly, I've got a bridge to see you if you think they will only talk about work and not personal matters. She needs to leave her job. Otherwise, the affair continues, and your marriage only gets worse.


So passwords are completely useless. Now all communication will be face-to-face, or even worse, face-to-[censored].


Her family's reaction is better than most. Most will blindly back their family member. Not wanting to get involved is a typical reaction that you cannot blame them for. It is really an uncomfortable position to be in.


I think they realize that she is who she is and they aren't going to change her (and neither are you).

Your situation will never improve while they work together, so you can either push her to leave or just give up and file for D. You can wait for Steve to have a talk with her, but I just want you to realize it won't change anything. Keep up plan A, but as I see it, these are the only choices you have left.

1) File for D.
2) Tell her to leave her job. If she doesn't:
a) Expose to her employer.
b) File for D.

Those are your only remaining choices.

Agree. I am just explaining what she has said.




yes, i realize this. I do have a gps on her car now, so I know everywhere she goes.

TC9,

Look at what this continued A is doing to you. You have become a spy on you W and made it a game of catch me if you can. You do not owe this to her and you have no children to protect. I am wondering what your parents are counseling you to do at this point. Do they know that your W has progressed to having sex with the OM?

they do not know the A has continued. My mother has already made it clear that if she had her way, I should just move on and find someone better. But it isn't their life, it's mine.

and the gps is just so I can verify if she is telling me the truth. even if we get to NC, I'll need some way of verifying it, so I can't just stop spying all together and trust her.

TC9,

I'm pretty sure your Mother has some valuable advice to offer you and that she truly cares about what is best for you.

Maybe you should talk to an IC about your issues with conflict etc. I would also suggest that you read No More Mr. Nice Guy.

You are going to be a spy for a long time, I am guessing that you will be buying a voice recorder next.

Anyone notice that TC's WW didn't seem too upset about exposure the the OM'sW?

The reality check for me after D-day was realizing that what my W wanted was the fairy tale -- OM leaves his W and they live happily ever after and I just daddy babysit so they can take long walks on the beach every other weekend. The quote from my WW's OM'sW? "she's trying to break up my marriage". And my W was, too.

My point is, TC has no kids here, she has a professional career, she is in her 20s....if TC decides to play "hardball" and get 'p!ssed" she might/probably will just walk.

If TC wants the marriage, and only he can decide that (and keep reappraising it), I don't think anger is going to win her back.

And, btw, I think the exposure at work thing is overblown. They are going to either deny and say TC is crazy, or just say they both had bad marriages and what's the big deal anyway. Corporate Human Resources is going to see if there is a reporting relationship and then not care. If everyone who had a workplace affair got fired, unemployment would be 26 percent instead of 6.

You want to throw out the accusation about sex in the building? Can't really prove it, email was somewhat ambigious, and it is really just malicious, as Steve said.

My d-day was as wild and wooly as it comes, I exposed to everyone in her life, but in reality, just filling the OM'sW in would have had the same bottomline effect. The rest was more or less just embarrassment now for both is us.

she wasn't upset, but she did mention that she is worried about what will happen to OM because she knows that "he doesn't want to lose his family." fog babble...

When I caught them having lunch together last month, WW was very concerned about me calling OMW, and convinced me not to call because OM wanted to confess himself. OM did confess to meeting for lunch, but lied about the reason, big mistake on my part for not calling myself. maybe OMW wouldn't be in deep denial if i had gotten to her first.

Fog babble.

Oh, you just said that :-)

After D-day 1, my W kept saying "I don't want to trouble them anymore, they are going to work on their marriage". Then she called him three times to "see if he was alright".


Yeah, same with me on d-day. I know they spoke for 4 minutes after I confronted W, then he went home and confessed teary-eyed to his W. I'd like to have heard that 4 minutes. They cobbled together a story that I subsequently blew apart.

Anyway, just realize that a WW's worst nightmare is definitely not the OM getting thrown out of his house, no matter how much concern they express "for his family"..

I can not comprehend you not exposing at work. When the OM loses his job for an affair then his wife will believe you.

You need to get the OM and WW apart. Are you content to let the OM bang your WW for years until he gets her knocked up and or dumps her, or she leaves you?

There is no down side to exposing at WW and OM at work in your case.