yeah, i know, this seems to be the broken record response to my sitch. I don't know what to do though. Steve H has advised against giving her an ultimatum, telling the university she works for, or going to plan B. So far, his advice was to use "subtle persuasion" to get her to read some of the MB basic concepts, and council with him. So far, all atemmpts have been unsuccesful. Trying to "educate" her one anything has always been an LB. Looks like I am due for another session with Steve H. He did say that we would move onto other plans is the education route did not work.

Since the MB principles state that recovery is impossible without NC, I have to assume that he has a plan to get to NC, but I just don't see it right now.

I've tried reaching out, but I am not getting any helpful advice at this point.

When my MIL asks how things are going, she just wants to here superficial answers. The minute I actually tell her how things are really going, she tells me that it is too much information and that she is too emotionally involved to give me good advice. She has told me that if I need to talk about this, I should call Steve Harley. WW's sister is probably my best source of advice, since she is totally disgusted with WW's behavior, but she tells her mother every time I call and all the details, which get her angry.

My mother is no help because all she can focus on is the fact that WW is not on her hands and knees apologizing and asking for forgiveness. She sees things too black and white, and sees me totally in the right and WW totally in the wrong. On the issue of the A, she is right, but she won't accept that some of the blame for our relationship not being on solid ground before the A is on me. All she sees is her angel of a son being tormented my a selfish b!tch. She won't come out and say it, but has come really close, the she wishes I would just drop her and move on. But, it is my choice to keep working at this, not hers. She is also very controlling, always has been, and feels helpless in this situation. Lately I just tell her things are getting slowly better. To tell her the truth would drive her crazy, and frankly, I can't take her daily phone calls. Even I need to get away from this once in a while. This lead me to my next point...

One thing that WW told me back in november was that she would like it if I stopped letting her get her way all the time. But, whenever I stand my ground on something, it causes a fight and she gets pissed and gives me the silent treatment. I eventually give in and things go back to normal. Over the years I have become her doormat. I am the same way with my mother. I guess it comes down to conflict avoidance in all aspects of my life. I have started reading No More Mr. Nice Guy, and is it amazing how I fit the profile. But, I am a little confused with how that fits in with plan A, if at all.

You said you have a son about my age. Let me guess, you'd tell me to walk away right? It may come to that, but not yet.

As for my support network, MB.com and Steve H are it.

Keep up the good fight TC9

You're young. You have no kids with this woman.

She's cheated. It will forever haunt you.

She browbeats you into submission to get her way.

I'll share what my therapist has told me as far as how to deal with tantrums for exww.

She told me that the worst thing I can do is give in. She says that if I give in it re-enforces the behavior that she should behave this way to get her way.

So the next time she throws a tantrum I'm supposed to stand my ground and not do what she wants at all.

I look back at my marriage and there is years of a pattern where I didn't want something in particular, she would throw a tantrum of gargantuan proportions, and I would then cave and do what she wanted.

SH will work with you to get your wife back. But it's my opinion that if you don't have kids with a woman and you're this young then you should leave her and move on because you are simply setting yourself up to go through this again when you have little kids in your life.

Just read some of the other threads on this board to see the nightmare you're in for.

They cheat once, they'll cheat again.

You're in for much, much pain, my friend.

But best of luck.

if that is true, does that mean that all of the success stories on this site are lies? If they all cheat again, why would anyone want to recover their marriage, why does this site exist? Does it mean that i should forsake my marriage vows at the first sign of trouble, without trying my hardest to work things out?



maybe so, but it will also haunt me forever if I give while I still have some love left for her.

Either I wasn't clear or you missed my point. She will cheat again if she doesn't fix this boundary issue.

We are ALL susceptible to cheating under the right circumstances.

ALL of us.

But understanding that weakness is the first step to not doing it.

So no harmless flirting with other men. No texts or emails with other men.

No new male friends.

But she will cheat again if she doesn't fix what led her down that path in the first place.

As far as forsaking marriage vows goes, I believe that a betrayed spouse has every right to end the marriage.

You stuck to yours. She broke hers.

Again, you have no kids. My guess is that you've been with this woman a long time and don't know any better.

Here's the reality for you: you won't love her after a while.

Here's another one: There's tons of great women out in the world who know how to keep their pants zipped for everyone else but you.

I'm not an advocate of trying to save a marriage with a woman who cheated and where there are no kids. You're simply asking for future pain.

And I'm growing more and more jaded about betrayed husbands on this board. It's a very rare breed that can save their marriages and actually have women worth saving. Women who are serial cheaters or have poor boundaries or deep psychological scars aren't worth the effort.

And the reality is that you're currently caught in "the chase" of getting your WW back. It's a "reconquest".

Well, when she comes back you'll have a honeymoon period with crazy sex and all will appear well.

But as things appear to get back to normal, you'll have feelings and triggers in your head and reminders of "she was bl-wing another guy".

Followed by, "she screw3d another man".

Followed by sick feelings in your stomach that you are now taking sloppy seconds.

These are common feelings among men who do get their wives back and attempt recovery.

Believe me, after being in the single world and seeing how many awesome women there are out here I know and understand that I never have to tolerate crap from a woman again.

I'm not talking about the everyday stuff that the sexes have to put up from each other. I'm talking about major things.

Give me crap about my kids? Take a hike. I'll find someone who won't.

Cheat on me? I'll file first, I'll file with no mercy. Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out.

Why do I feel this way? Because I'm older now and have met awesome women who have morals and decensy. The key is to find a good one. Ones that cheat on their husbands and feel no remorse over it aren't good ones.

Ones that don't understand that they caused you the most horrible pain you've ever experienced are not good ones.

Ones you don't have kids with and cheat on you shortly after you marry them are certainly not good ones.

TC,

You are younger than one of my sons so I'll tell you what I would tell him. He will always wonder "what if" if he did not try and save this marriage. And he will always wonder "what was I thinking" if he did not grow a backbone and stand up to her.

You are failing to appreciate that people who act like your W are immature and undisciplined and it is your job and responsibility as her H to be both. Giving in does not fit that bill.

By the same token someone that is as immature as she will make a lousy W and she is already showing you this. So the question is, will she "grow up" and "show up" in this marriage? If she does not, you need to address the "what was I thinking?" question by leaving. If she starts to actually establish boundaries and grow up, then you need to stick around for the "what if" part.

Here is your problem as I see it. No one changes unless they have to. Few people stop doing immoral things unless there are consequences. Your W has had no consequences and in fact you are protecting her from the consequences of her decisions and actions. You have to stop protecting her, and she needs to have this affair exposed. Most academic institutions are without any morals at all, so I doubt she will be permanently harmed by your exposure, but even if she is, these are the consequences of violating the Univ.'s code of conduct.

It is time to step up and man up. What I mean is step up to being the strong man of principle that you can and should be, that means offering her a chance to rebuild this marriage. By man up I mean you need to allow her the privilege of dealing with the consequences of her actions, you do her no favors by shielding her from them.

It is time she matured. You are the vehicle put into her life to do this.

I have now told you exactly what I would tell my sons and my daughter. I hope it helps you.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

You said it perfectly. I do want to put every ounce of energy I have into saving this marriage so I am not stuck with a "what if" feeling, but saving this marriage is not worth being her doormat for the rest of my life.


The part about helping WW grow up is pretty daunting considering her personality. I am not exactly sure how to do this. She is the type of person that will not take advice from anyone, and would rather do things her own way no matter how wrong it is. So, I guess that means I need to help her realize she needs to take responsibility with my actions, because clearly words will not work. But, I am not sure what those actions are.

Yesterday I initiated a discussion about how I though we had drifted apart over the last few weeks. Her turning me down, yet again, for SF initiated this discussion. I tried to explain that even though she may not always be in the mood, SF is the #1 things that makes me feel connected to her. I asked her what is the #1 thing that I do that makes her feel connected to me, and she said she feels the best about us when we are laughing together. So, I guess that means the Conversation is her #1 EN? After that she said that it is hard for her to be in the mood for SF because she doesn't feel close to my because I make her feel like a child that is trouble with their father. She knows that I have access to her email, and she is suspicious that I am having her followed, or am taking days off work to follow her around all day. I didn't really know what to say to that. Is this something that will have to pass over time?

Over the past week, she has called OM's work # twice, and sent him 1 or 2 unnecessary emails almost every day. He hasn't responded to any of the emails, but the phone calls did last for 10-15 minutes, so he must have picked up. So, if me watching her email makes her feel like a kid in trouble with dad, what am I supposed to do about this continued contact? Confronting her with it will just make that feeling worse and push her further away. But, the frequency of the emails has been slowly increasing over the past 3 weeks, and if I don't do anything to stop it, I fear it will quickly get out of hand. It boggle my mind that she will send these emails to him using her regular email account when she knows I am watching it. It seems she still believes it is OK for them to be "friends", even after I have tried to explain that going back to friends is not possible.

I know nobody would fault me for walking away, that is not my concern right now.



you're right. We've been together for 7 years.

ya'know tC ... there will come a time in the not too distant future ... after you have finally rid yourself of this terrible woman ... that you will kick yourself over and over and over for being so stupid and not recognizing the flashing neon signs you are currently IGNORING.

I know this because I still have bruises on my [censored] from where I have kicked myself repeatedly over STUPID stuff I did when I was in my 20's ... where I IGNORED all the signs of my own stupidity.

Most of the people here really mean well and speak to you with the wisdom that comes with experience.

Looking backwards from age 48 ... I can honestly say that my biggest regrets were from decisions I made, while IGNORING the obvious signs that I should do the opposite of what I did.

I can handle the bumps in the road of life that completely blindsided me, but the decisions I made "IN SPITE" of seeing the obvious warning signs still haunt me today.

It's a very tough pill to swallow and the very bitter aftertaste will last for decades.

TC,

NOW we are going to get down to business. You notice that she doesn't address how to make "Dad" feel better. You quoted her as saying

Your obvious answer is simple. "The stop acting like a child and start to act like a married women who honors her commitments and her husband."

But, really here is the part you are missing. You ask/stated
You don't do this by "making" her grow up. You do this by setting boundaries in your life. For example, you might have the following boundaries.

1. I won't be married to a woman that lies and cheats on me.

2. I won't baby sit my W, I expect her to be a grown woman.

3. I won't live in a marriage where my needs are ignored.

4. I won't live in a marriage where I ignore my W's needs or cannot meet them.

5. I won't live in a marriage where I don't have a say in how life's decisions are made.

6. I won't tolerate lying by myself or anyone toward me.

7. I won't tolerate people stealing from me.

And on it goes. You simply state to your W your boundaries after really thinking about them, and if she violates them you decide on what action to take. These are not threats. They really are not about HER per se'. They apply to YOU, your view of things, and what you will and won't accept in your life. Anyone in your life should know your boundaries and know that you will enforce them.

These are YOUR boundaries, they reflect your values, your morals, and your life. Notice there are no threats. The consequences of violation may mean divorce, they may mean you turn someone into the police. They may mean you will leave a job or start hunting for a new one.

You start to have mature boundaries that reflect your life and you start to enforce them and I think your W will respond. THis is NOT ADVICE TO HER. It is at best a simple statement of who you are, how you intend to lead your life, and what you accept in your life. If she doesn't meet these, she should be gone, and long gone before any children are brought into this marriage.

TC, this stuff is sooooo simple. It is just not easy, but it is much easier if you set your boundaries based on good moral guidance and good life skills on your part.

You are right you cannot change her, you cannot educate her, and you cannot make her faithful or even kind. You can lead your life respecting your boundaries, and you can leave her.

I say give her a chance to color within your boundaries, but in the long run all of this is HER decision. ONce she knows your boundaries whether she honors and respects them is her call. Your call is what you do when she does not.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

MyRev,

By IGNORING, are you referring to the latest developments, or my WW's behavior in general? I'm not ignoring the things she is doing, I just don't know exactly the best way to deal with her actions. As far as her behavior as a wife in general, many of you have said that she is not worth keeping. You all may be right, but I'm just not there yet. I am already kicking myself for some of the things that I have or haven't done in handling this situation, and hope to minimize the future damage.

Thank you for all your wisdom and advice throughout my thread, even though I haven't exactly followed them most of the time.

TC9

She feels like a child that is in trouble with dad because she is acting childish and knows she is continuing to do you wrong. She doesn't care enough about you to stop it. I told you as long as there is contact it will continue to get worse. After another month of you not calling her on continued contact, they'll be fooling around again. She will in no way work on her marriage as long as there is contact w/ OM. She's not thinking about your marriage, she's imaging how great it would be if she and OM got divorced and were together. She's hoping that will be the eventual outcome, and you are just her fallback plan in case it doesn't work out with him. If she were to have NC w/ OM, she'd eventually forget about him and probably start working to improve your marriage.

Every day you stay in the marriage the way it is, is another day that you are just spinning your wheels. You need to let her know your boundaries as well as the consequences for not respecting them. Steve is right. She probably won't leave you as long as you don't give her any ultimatums. But, it is certain that she will not work on your marriage and end her affair w/ OM for good as long as she is in contact with you.

You need to decide what you want:

1) Stay married to your WW while she goes back and forth w/ OM for the next two years (and learns to have no respect for you by the way, allowing this will only lead to similar behavior from her in the future).

OR

2) State your boundaries, go to plan B, and have maybe a 50/50 shot of an improved marriage or a divorce.

I thought I was getting a divorce, and once I made it clear to my WW that I was moving forward without her, she agreed to NC immediately. She might just have to know that you actually mean business this time.

tC9,

Actually, I was referring to all of the signs that "I" IGNORED in my life mistakes, but I figured you would pick up on the similarities.

It's your life and your call ... but as for your situation ... you already have enough information to make a permanent decision ... and deep down, you know what the right decision is ... you are just AFRAID to act on that knowledge.

Surely you KNOW that you don't have a relationship worth salvaging ... you WW cares NOTHING about you ... she is nothing but a long term selfish unrepentent adulteress ... and those are qualities that don't just "go away".

All I was saying that I had a lot of the same type of neon warning signs (albeit a slightly different situation) that I IGNORED and I have kicked myself EVERY SINGLE DAY since and you are about to start down that same path.

I too, have been AFRAID of the unknown ... THAT is NORMAL ... but my message to you is that in retrospect ... I found I could deal with the UNKNOWN in a straight up manner and take things as they come day to day ... what I found out that I couldn't deal with successfully was my own shortcomings, the damn poor decisions where I IGNORED the obvious.

It all comes down to KNOWLEDGE vs. HOPE ... you KNOW what is going on and that it will likely continue, but you HOPE for better. The long term regret comes from INGORING what you KNEW in favor of HOPE.

HOPE is not real ... HOPE is like a mist that clouds our judgment ... HOPE is not your friend ... HOPE is the enemy of the rational mind when its time to make an important decision.

Yup, I know that feeling. And yes, it lasts and lasts..

another thing WW said yesterday is that Mopey [TC9] turns her off. So, if I am going to sit her down and explain my boundaries, or confronting her about continued contact, I need to do it without being "mopey." which is almost impossible since I usually get emotional when bringing up relationship talk.

Fitting this advice in with plan A looks to be impossible right now. Unless I shouldn't be doing plan A at this point?

58 pages of posts and 2 months of gaslighting.

Please TC9 do something, ANYTHING! But stop being a doormat while your wife boinks someone else!

TC,

Haven't you learned anything here????
Plan A is about setting your boundaries just as much as it is about no love busters, as it is about exposure, as it is about making plans to go to plan B .

Setting boundaries is NOT a relationship talk. You don't care what she thinks or how she responds. You calmly tell her your boundaries. End of story. If she continues to violate them, you decide on what your actions will be. Again no discussion. Then you take those actions, again no discussion.

If the woman doesn't please you and she is running around and not working on the marriage, then YOU have decisions to make, and they don't need her approval, her discussions, or her thoughts. She doesn't get to decide if you are "mopey". You get to decide.

As my old football coach once yelled at me. Another words the worst mistake you can make is to do nothing, even something wrong is better.

God Bless,

JL

TC,

You're in the category of men that is virtually hopeless to deal with. You're a BH with no balls.

You have no self resepct. You stay with a woman who consistently disrespects you and you do nothing.

You think, and think, and think and take no action to alieviate your situation.

It is very, very simple. The contact stops immediately or you're out the door.

That simple.

So grow a pair and lay it down and follow through when she doesn't do it and implement Plan B.

You can't educate your wife. You can't control her. But you can certainly control how she treats you and there is zero respect for you at this time.