I am not sure what your "fear" has to do with it, but it is ok to confront the OM; I just don't see the point. He has reason to be afraid of you, not the other way around. Telling his GF would not be confronting HIM, it would be exposing to her.

And this is something she needs to know that would also help protect your marriage. If there are 2 ppl wathing from both ends, you decrease the risk of a resumption. You help the OM do this to other people by helping him keep his secret. Truly she needs to know, your fears notwithstanding.

Yes, you are right.

I can come up with all the excuses I want...but what you said is completely correct.

Do I tell my WW I'm going to call the GF?

Should my WW call the GF and tell her?

More guidance here please...

And as much as I know this is the right thing to do, it may take me a while to build up the courage.

Reviewing notes from first counseling session. Counselor talks of building boundaries around your marraige to keep affairs from developing in the future.

I used that to bring up the transparency issues (sharing e-mails, text, phone records, etc.) and counselor agreed.

You should be the one to call, giving your wife no advance warning. Wait a few days and then tell your W you have told the OM's GF.

She may be mad at first, but the benefit here is that your W will not feel so free to pursue the OM if she knows the GF knows and is watching and knows how to contact you. We have had WW's tell us that after the OM's wife knew, they gave up because they knew she was watching for contact.

PERFECT! You are on the right track, DNU.

During the recovery process there will be many aspects of past marriage practices that you will examine, some alone but hopefully most together. As you each begin to examine your most important emotional needs the bigger pieces of your relationship puzzle will begin to surface. Things will begin to seem clearer, more informative.

Your wife’s proclamation of “I don’t know” is partly to obscure her embarrassment and I suspect, mostly because she simply “does not know.” When people perform actions on the basis of “feelings” they are seldom able to formulate a cognitive response or suitable explanation of why they did what they did. That is why it is always important to think with your head before thinking with your heart. Love with your brain and let the heart follow. If you do that (and she does that) then love will ALWAYS manifest itself as a set of caring and considerate ACTIONS, i.e. the things that each does for the other to help enrich the relationship. “I love you,” while always nice to hear, can NEVER stand on its own, it takes actions to create and maintain love.

Let’s revisit some of your past comments so that we can now examine them in this latter context. I think a few things that Melody mentioned might gain some additional importance.


And


And


It certainly appears that she still harbors great interest in the other man. You should watch this carefully. While she appears that she wants to return to the marriage the lure of the other man remains. Of that, you can be certain. I know how hopeful you are and honestly, you have good reason to be hopeful. There are many great signs that point to recovery for your wife and you. There is however a “but”. Stay guarded in case your wife fails to maintain NO CONTACT. It seldom happens without great trauma and maintaining NO CONTACT can be very difficult, at least in the initial days following her first promise of NO CONTACT. Many waywards initially fail at NO CONTACT only to get back up on the horse and try again. So my advice on this is to “stay guarded” for a disappointment. If she falters in NO CONTACT there are actions that you can take to hasten its return.

The sharing of her emails, passwords, phone, etc. is her gift to you of transparency. She does this for you so that you can breathe easy without worrying that she is up to mischief. It is an important and NECESSARY element to recovery. Are you familiar with the “Giver and Taker”? Right now, you are the consummate “giver” doing whatever is necessary to preserve your marriage no matter what the cost to your own emotional stability. But the simple fact is that over time your “giver” will run out of steam. You cannot maintain the endless “hand wringing” every time your wife leaves the house, or her phone rings or when she sits at the computer. Transparency is one of the many gifts of love that you will each exchange with one another during this long recovery process. And you will notice that this gift of love, like all gifts of love, is an “action”.

Your wife mentioned “closure” with the other man. Yikes, how about we push him off the edge of a tall building, how’s that for “closure”. Seriously, I agree there should be “closure” but it is not the way your wife might imagine. Closure of her affair should end with a final “end-all” email or letter from her to him. It should describe that she is returning to her marriage with you and that he should respect this decision and NEVER attempt to contact her again. There are wonderful examples of such letters and sending one is a recovery key and incidentally another gift of love from her to you. It should be sent in your presence with your final "buy-off" on its content.

You also mentioned that she keep no secrets from you. But you said it even better; you said that you wanted to open up your lives to each other. There is a great deal to say about privacy verses secrecy. The two are very different. I bet you are smart enough to distinguish the difference on your own. These forums are blanketed with discussions of privacy verses secrecy. What is most important is how these terms fit within Dr. Harley concept of Radical Honesty. To me, Radical Honesty has always been one of his most important identifications. Secrecy cannot exist within Radical Honesty but more importantly do you know what really flourishes there, the love of your partner. Radical Honesty becomes the garden by which your love for each other can grow. The ability to face your spouse without a hidden agenda will serve you both for the rest of your days.

Finely, I would like to reinforce Melody’s concern with most Marriage Counselors.

You said:

Sure sound like the real deal. Please keep Melody’s caution at hand; there are so many disappointments out there. If it appears that this counselor is anything but “Pro-Marriage” then run, don’t walk, out of his office, with your wife in tow.

Keep your chin up,

Mr. G

Man, you guys are GREAT! I'm getting emotional just reading this. It's sooooooo wonderful to hear positive feedback and hear that I'm on the right path!

I'd give you all a big ol bear hug if you were present! Can't thank you enough!

And yes, I made it clear to my counselor that I wanted a pro-marriage approach. He understands that.

Again, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

Well, you're giving as good as you're getting, per your posts on my "wavering" thread - so thank YOU! This is what MB is about!

- M

No, no, no. It must be with the same counselor, first separately and latter together. You need someone to work to a common end. Not two different therapists saying two different things. That is what will happen. Understand that the mess you are in is really much simpler than most outsiders would understand. Forget about all the psycho babble buzz words and childhood impact that might be a contributing factor. That kind of stuff is flat out off base. Your problem and your wife’s problem is related to simple breakdowns in communication and a failure to understand the concept of what marriage and family and love really entail and mean. That is the correct target to attack and the very shortest path to the finish line.

I'm with you MR. G. I'm not sure my wife would work well with the counselor I met...he's in to analogies, beats around the bush a little too much.

When she finds a counselor she's comfy with my plan is to work with them individually and couples. I'm right with you here.

Question for you all: when to resume SF?

Haven't done ENQ, but I'm sensing that SF is going to be pretty high for me. Sensing for the wife it's much lower. We havent' been intimate since probably Dec 22nd (although I did fly yesterday).

We both know that our sex life has been stale and predictable. and WW feels upset that she can't O while we are having intercourse.

Okay, maybe too much information here...but I feel comfy talking to you all.

Suggestions?

Have the two of you been tested for STDs? You say this guy is a player and has had sex with many women.

Good question. We've had sex probably 15 times since their hookup. I asked the WW about testing and she doesn't have an STD. I was too upset to ask about condoms at the time (just after DDay). I'll revist the topic soon.

But back to original post...

When's time for SF? Suggestions?

If you want sex and she wants sex, I see no reason not to have sex.

I have not experienced a physical betrayal, but from reading on this site, I know it is common for a wayward to say they used condoms and then the betrayed spouse finds out they did not use condoms.

How do you know she does not have an STD?

Other than being concerned about a life/health threatening STD (and there are members of this forum who are in that situation), I see no reason not to have sex with her. She is telling you that there is no contact right? And you have no reason to suspect contact, except that she is being slow on giving you her passwords.

Why do you think she is reluctant to give you her passwords?

My sense is she's not over him completely. Still in withdrawl. Voiced concern that their was no closure from him, just communication ceased (OM refusing to answer her calls, texts, e-mails, etc.)

I will re-address this issue in future, but put it in way that talks about transperency in our relationship and a gift to me of security in our marriage.

DNU, you might want to frame it more realistically so she understands that transparency is a REQUIREMENT for recovery, not an option. If you frame is as a GIFT, she may view it as an OPTION, when it is not optional at all when it comes to marital recovery. It is the only way your marriage will recover and the only way you can possibly feel safe.

Now, if are willing to stay in a marriage and NOT recover, but go through this again, you would want to make that clear too. But in order for your marriage to recover, there has to be transparency.

While you wouldn't want to DEMAND, you would want to make clear your BOUNDARIES and under what conditions you are willing to stay in the marriage.

And I agree with you about the reason she does not want to give up her passwords is so she can continue to pursue the OM. She still has HOPE for the affair. That hope can be dashed much faster if you call the OM GF.
\
Here is a MUST READ article for all betrayed spouses that really opened my eyes. You really "should" read it!

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Thanks Melody. Kids and I are heading up to see her at work. I will read soon.

Again, thanks for all the support here!

Update: I continue to bang away at her ENs and remain a calm and collected spouse...the best husband a woman could have. It's strange because Nov 6th, just days after the Vegas rendezvous she opened up a can of whoop-behind on my about our marriage, her dissatisfaction with my efforts, resentment, etc. So I buckled down and really worked on the things I would later come to know as ENs.

At first I was resentful of her & I felt like a jerk for not seeing this earlier. And as I worked and worked to make things better a strange thing happened -- I began to enjoy meeting her ENs.

So after DDay and reading here I continue to work on the ENs and do my best to spend time with her. And gradually she's calling more, texting more, asking me to be near her more. And the other day she blew my socks off...she returned from shopping and handed me a bag of cheese popcorn. Popcorn, you say? What's special about that. Well, it's special because I'm the only one in the house who really likes that cheese popcorn. And she said "I got this for you"(!!!!, emphasis mine!). Really made myday.

I have so many more questions, and we have such a log way to go. But I'm seeing progress. And that's good in my eyes.

So after ~60 posts in this thread I'm thinking it's time to give my WW a taste of MB.com by means of an article or two...or three

And that's the question I have for you tonight. Which article to start with? Then where? (yes, books ordered tomorrow). My sense is she won't be able to see counselor until around Jan 13-14th(?) So I got some time to introduce her to Harley's concepts

SSsssssshhhhsssss, I've already been doing that in my own little subtle way

DNU,

My recommendation is something like Harley's four rules for a good marriage. And the articles on the policies of: Radical honesty and joint agreement. He has some letters on affairs and what to do as well.

The book Surviving an Affair by Harley would be good for you to read and for her to read. But, you cannot educate her, so be careful about appearing to force her to read these things.

I might suggest you leave laying around the print outs of the previously mentioned articles. She just may be curious and read them.

PLEASE don't try to educate her.

More importantly is that you start to really formulate YOUR BOUNDARIES in this marriage. She needs to know them. NO threats, no ultimatums, simple statements of what you can life with and what you cannot. Also no real statements of consequences, just general statements.

Mel is right, she must be transparent, and this MUST NOT BE HANDLED LIKE HER LAST AFFAIR WAS.

Hence my recommendations of Harley's four rules and his two policies. They will prompt discussion and conversation and that is a start.

What you also need to make her understand is that you have decided to TRY and rebuild this marriage once again, but you have not decided to STAY in this marriage if it remains as it was/is. That decision depends on the responses and contributions she makes to the marriage as much as it does on you and your actions.

Must go, it is getting late.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL, wise words. I agree with not trying to educate her. Thanks.

And the keylogger ROCKS! I would have never figured out her e-mail password without it.

More good news. No crazy e-mails to or from the OM since I last had access to her account. You might remember it was the open e-mail account (hotmail) that led to DDay. She simply forgot to close it down and log off.

While I feel kind of creepy for keylogging her, I'm pleased that there were no surprises this time around. We continue to talk and spend quality time together. I keep reminding myself to be positive, meet ENs, not love-bust.