New here, first post.

Married 17 years. Wife had affair while in grad school in 1995. Came clean and we worked on marriage. Have since had kiddos, dog, the works.

In Oct she decided to attend conference by herself...Im suspecious but convince myself nothing to worry about. When she returns from trip I notice little things and get that gut feeling. But again, convince myself nothing to worry about. Shortly thereafter she confronts me saying she's resentful of our marriage and that I'm not doing enough. I appologise and work my behind off to make things better. At first I'm resentful, but after devoting myself to her more I grow to love her even more. And things turn better.

Today I notice her e-mail account open and I look around...and i'm saddened to find my gut feeling was right. She did have affair. I'm angry, sad and relieved at the same time. Angry with her and him...and me in a strange way. Sad that this has happened once again. Relieved that my gut feeling was right. Strange.

I confronted her after work (had the kiddos head to neighbor's house) and she fessed up. We talked a lot and I'm handling this better than the first time. I think I'm still numb right now.

She's trying to give me space and we are both trying to hold ourselves together for kiddos sake, both under 10 yrs old.

After the first affair I talked to my parents and siblings for support. It was both good and bad. I'm reluctant to talk to anyone right now because I don't want the "you should do this..." or get funny looks should I decided to work on the marriage.

I love her...she's the light of my life. I'm hurt, but I cannot imagine life without her and/or my children. I'm scared to end the marriage and I'm scared to stay in it. Seems like we'd be setting ourselves up for future infidelity if we continue. But how do I move on from 20+ year relationship?

I'm not looking for advice, just an ear to bend this weekend while I wait until Monday and a professional counselor.

From the e-mails it looks as if the affair is over...they spent a week together then back to separate sides of the states. Communication wavered then tapered to none. No contact with him in about a month. And in that time wife suggested and booked a get away to Cancun for us in Feb.

Seems like she wants to work on things but I'm not sure at this point. I'm torn.

Enough rambling. Thanks for listening.

I can understand your being torn and confused. You say you love her. But, it appears she does not love you.
One thing I read that made a lot of sense to me is that , as humans, we all desire to be loved by our romantic partner exclusively. When confronted with an affair, one has proof positive that one does not have that from a spouse.
One thing to keep in mind, your wife is in a select subsection of cheaters, serial cheaters. These folks are much more resistant to being helped and many are personality disordered. You , most likely, do not know about other affairs. Affairs are most often undiscovered. So, if you know for certain about two, the odds are that there are more.
You've taken and weathered some huge hits here, with two affairs discovered. I cannot imagine the amount of pain this has caused you.
Take care of yourself.

Zel: Thanks for the kind words. I debated replying because I feel as if I'm defending her. Maybe I am...maybe I should be...maybe I'm crazy.

Anyway, here goes.

We have spent a lot of time talking since confronting her. She does give me the "I love you...just not IN love with you" crap. I try to get more details but she just can't explain. I think she still has feelings for the other man, even though it's apparant he refuses to talk to her for past month.

Personally disordered...yep, she even admits she's messed up. Even though I tell her often she's sexy, beautiful, hot, etc., it just rolls off her back. But when another shows interest, it's new, exciting...etc.

Do I believe she's had other affairs? No. My gut instinct was right with affair #1, but she denied it, eventually coming clean. And my gut told me about affair #2, but I convinced myself it couldn't be true. In 17 years of marriage I've only had that gut feeling twice and was spot on. Saw no warning signs the other years of our marriage.

Right now we are being brutally honest with each other. She's answering all my questions and I'm telling her just how i feel. Cards are on the table, nothing held back. I feel a little bit better this morning, but still gut-punched (that knot in your gut).

I'm furioulsy reading on this site looking for hints and signs.

It's as if I want to work this out..but I'm trying to push that feeling back and just letting my emotions through.

We have communication issues. Have trouble expressing our needs to one another on a deeper level. Yes, we talk a lot about stuff, but the deeper things aren't touched (like sex). We both admitted our sex life stinks and has been stale for years. She's often wanted to say something, but fearful of my reaction...and me the same.

Wow, that's a lot to digest, but it helps to get that off my chest. There is really no one for me to talk to right now. Don't want to include family in on this right now (did that with affair #1 and regretted it later). No really good friends to talk with in town. So please forgive me if I'm babbling on and on here...

Again, thanks for the kind words. D.

I suggest you either schedule a Marriage Builders weekend (I think there is one in January) or call the Harley's and set up phone counseling with them.

It sounds like your wife doesn't have extraordinary precautions in place to protect the marriage. The Harley's can help her understand what those are and why they are important.

I disagree with Zelmo that multiple affairs indicates a personality disorder and I'd like to see statistics to back that claim. I think it more likely indicates a lack of healthy boundaries to protect the marriage.

After the first affair, what did your wife do differently to protect herself from allowing someone else to meet her ENs?

Do differently to protect herself? Probably not much. Affair #1 was thirteen years ago. We did move away from OM and that town. Re-connected well and communicated better.

I guess I need to look more in to ENs and specifics. We talked again just now about the need for professional help (counseling). She's all for it, both individual and couples. I'm pleased with that progress.

I'm not saying she neccessarily has a personality disorder. BVut, personality disordered folks do have a tenednecy to have affairs , and do multiple affairs make it more likely that she may have a disorder.
As for whether there were more than two affairs, the gut is useful, but really it is possible that there were other affairs that flew beneath the radar. So many go undetected that is just seems unlikely that you discovered the only two.
I would take a look at getting some individeal therapy for yourself. It may help you ascertain if you are the typwe of person that can stay in a relationship with someone that has cheated on you multiple times. The majority of folks do not seem to be able to live with this.
You may need meds , as well as counseling to help you cope with this abuse by your wife.
Is your wife setting up any therapy for herself to see why she has repeatedly cheated on you? Clearly, something is wrong with her to have gone down this road multiple times , now. I would think that if she is serious about making herself a viable marriage partner, she would be putting a lot of effort into fixing herself, as well as repairing the damge she has done to you. Failing to do this type of thing demonstrates a lack of true remorse and a lack of understanding just how abusive she has been.

I absolutely agree that the posters wife is a serial cheater. You will never know if there weren't any affairs, trysts, ONS's etc. unless you subject her to a poygraph. I would make that an iron clad condition for reconciliation. Anything less makes you look like a doormat. Good luck!

This is why I was reluctant to post here. It's easy to make judgements from afar, and probably without all the facts and history of my relationship.

What I really need is people to listen and be supportive. I don't need the "you should do this..." or "you NEED to do that" statements. I know people are trying to help...but the best help for me right now is people to listen, that's all.

DNU1
I understand your feeling here and can empathize. Realize thought that most of us have been through the same things as well. You do not want to see your wife in a certain light pointed out by other posters, I can understand that. I am divorced now and still can not see the real Missy because I see what I want. It is very difficult even still to call a spade a spade so to say.

That being said, everyone has different opinions and angles on how to handle this issue. Read objectively and take what you want and apply it to your situation.

It seems you want to save your marriage. That is a great and noble thing considering the circumatances. Please read up on Plan A and ensure NC as first steps. You may want to consider exposure in the workplace if this trip was work related as well. As bad as it hurts, shielding you WW from the consequences of her decisions can be detrimental long term. Another thing to broach is what precautions will your WW put in place to protect the marriage and your sanity?

DNU1, I suggest you move your thread to the GenQII board for more help. Right now, you are receiving advice from people who have not been on this board very long. I'm not saying that their advice is bad, but that I think you could really benefit from the help of long-term MB members.

I will caution you, though, if you are serious about recoverying your marriage, telling people not to tell you what you should do is NOT the way to do it. The people on these boards helped me save my marriage, while the counselor IRL was encouraging me to take actions that would have destroyed my marriage. Thankfully, I had learned enough here to reject his ignorance and stop seeking his counsel. The only counseling I would ever suggest to someone dealing with infidelity, especially multiple affairs (and 2 is multiple), is with the Harley's. Have you called them?

YOU NEED to educate yourself with the materials here if you want to rebuild a passionate marriage.

The first step to rebuilding is your wife putting into place extraordinary precautions (EPs) to protect the marriage. That is why I asked what she has done differently to protect the marriage. It sounds like you need help with this first and basic step.

Wow, again thanks for the replies. I'd like to move this thread to GQII, but not sure how?

Just talked to a mutual friend of WW and I. I was careful not to divulge too much but was happy to hear from her that my WW was scared, said she screwed up, regretful, fearful I'm going to kick her to the curb, felt like an idiot for letting this happen, sorry again, etc.

Helps to get another perspective and have someone just listen.

My sense is I want to work on this marriage. I'm just not 100% sure at this time. Maybe 95% sure...just scared to tell my WW that I'm willing to work. Maybe I want her to suffer and be uncomfortable for a while? Is that bad of me?

I know I need to demand no contact, passwords to e-mails, blackberry, etc. She has agreed to no contact, partly because the OM stopped calling shorter after their hook-up. It's been a month since last contact. My sense is she's getting over him...just not completely there yet.

I will have to read up on EP's.

More later. Probably sooner than later as this is pretty much my only outlet at this time

Heading to lunch with a friend. Probably can't tell him because his parents broke up over affair years ago and he's still very bitter, and his wife's a big blabber-mouth. No way she could keep this secret.

Going to see counselor this evening. Wife very supportive and will make sure she's home from work so I can head that way.

Keep replying...very helpful to hear all the support. I was reluctant after a few replies, but I'm growing more accepting here, and learning what to filter out

Met with counselor last night and it went better than expected. He uses analogy to make his point and sometimes beats around the bush a little. But I like his explanation of concepts that fit in with MB.com

- fog (falling in love with someone, thinking they are the one),
- love busters (doing small things that annoy your loved one is like dropping a grain of sand on your living room carpet. One doesn't mean much, but after a while you have a beach!)
- Cognitive dissonance – knowing that something is wrong, will cause harm, but doing it any way (engaging in an affair)

I was pretty pumped coming out of that session. I wanted counselor to affirm my feelings for working on the marriage, for making a go of it. I was bouncingoff the walls, but that soon turned south.

Getting a chance to talk with WW I explained some of what counselor said and she understood. Seemed a little reserved, but was still talking. I let her know I was willing to work on the marraige and she said she was too...but I sensed a little hesitation. We talked and talked some more, discussing her feelings for OM.

A mutual friend mentioned that WW was upset at how things ended for them -- OM just stopped communication, no ryme or reason what so ever. That bothered WW more than anything. Feels she just needs closure from him.

This one threw me for a loop. Little background -- my WW is very strong willed when it comes to certain things. Back her into a corner and she's not coming out swinging, she will hole up, dig in her heels and just not want to play. Counselor brought up idea of not issueing ultimatiums, that WW needs to come to decisions on her own. Looking back on our many years together I agreed. Instead of demanding she hand over e-mail, phone passwords, I suggested we open up our lives and not keep anything secret. She was hesitant. And I was a bit shocked and disheartened.

She said she would think about it...that just confirmed my feelings that she is not over OM.

This morning I could feel her putting up walls. Said she was tired, and I can understand...we've been up talking at wee-hours of the night since Friday (about only time we can talk without fear of kiddos hearing). I just had a strange feeling she's trying to build up defenses and walls again. I'm sensing since I told her I'm willing to work on marriage, she doens't have to work as hard now, can lapse back into the old ways.

I asked her a few times how she felt and again got the "I'm tired, but okay." On a positive note she did ask for the counselor's phone number. I didn't push on her at all.

Told her I loved her, she said thanks, gave me kiss on cheek and was off to work.

I'm kind of kicking myself for telling her I'm willing to work on the marriage. I think she's been living under the assumption that I might kick her to the curb at any moment since DDay. She confided to friend that she's surprised she's not gone already. And said to me last night she's feeling torn because she expected me to say "bye-bye." Maybe that's why she's being a bit reserved.

I don't know. I'm glad I've decided to work on this marriage, but I'm wishing I would have held that information back from her for a while. Feels like the balance of power has shifted from me to her, if that makes sense?

Thansks for listening. D.

A positive note:

One thing she offered up last night was that she dreads hunting season. Said it’s been better this year, but in the past two years she’s been very disappointed with my hunting a lot.

It’s not so much hunting, it’s that things don’t get done around the house – cleaning, cooking, laundry, kiddos homework, stuff like that.

She did say I was better this year, but past two years she really dreaded the coming hunting season. Made her really upset.

I was soo glad to hear her say something like that. It was really progress for her to come out and say something of that nature. She’s so much a person who holds things in. Baby steps. Baby steps.

*Thread moved from JFO at poster's request.*

DNU1,

I'm certain you will get the support you need here. Good Luck.

Thanks ASterisk!

I'm pretty jumpy today. Wife looked foggy before heading to work. We've texted back and forth and talked a few times on the phone about our 10 year old. Her tummy is hurting and she doesn't know why.

Both WW and I are thinking she may be sensing the trouble in our marriage.

WW has attempted to get in to counseling but first open dates are Jan 13th(?!!!) Aarrgh. I think right now I'm just very impatient...want things to move forward...and NOW!

need patience and something to help me calm down. Probably need to get on meds.

Have you read Fall in Love, Stay in Love or His Needs, Her Needs and Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley? I started reading everything that I could get my hands on.

No one here knows what you need except you. We merely try to help. If there is something you don't like, don't take it into account. I have found certain people relate better to each other on here...similar personalities or something.

I would suggest that you guys try to figure out WHY or HOW (what allowed) this to happen and what will prevent it in the future. I am the type of person that I would never forgive the 2nd offense, but I found this site and have learned alot. My WW and I are practicing the MB concepts and putting into place the 'extraordinary precations' and protecting our marriage. Have you read all the info on this site? There is a ton of info to get you started.

Thanks, I'm planning to order books. I believe I now why and how this happened -- me not meeting certain emotional needs (chores around the house, communication), her hitting the big four-oh (mid life crisis), OM being very slick and a player, me feeling the marriage didn't need any maintenance, nothing to protect our marriage. And a lack of self esteem on WW's part.

Found this site just after DDay revelation. Reading my behind off ever since then. Got counseling last night...she's getting counseling soon. Couples soon also.

Thanks for support.

DNU1,

You said
I hate to disagree with you, but I do. What you have listed are reasons she might not have been happy in the marriage. They are NOT reasons for her having an affair. And here is where you really need to pay attention to the info on this site.

One can be unhappy in the marriage. Fair enough. However, one has many options to address this unhappiness. The obvious one is talking to the spouse and discussing strategies that would help the marriage. The next one is to seek counseling from a counselor. One could see a clergyman/woman and discuss the issues. One could seek out a parent or trusted friend and discuss the issues. One could decide they don't care and file for divorce. And the ONE thing they can do is have an affair, but oddly this action does NOT address the issues, help the marriage, nor even effectively end the marriage.

In short, the affair is simply selfishness. It is not caused by the actions you listed. It is a decision based on few or no moral boundaries.

For your marriage to work, your W is going to have to change her perspectives about marriage, her honor, what her word means, the value of her family, and how to address issues, and finally her boundaries as to what she thinks is acceptable behavior while in a marriage. Until her perspectives change, she is likely to address any further marriage issues the same way. She just might be cleverer the next time.

I will tell you that you are much more attuned to your W than you think. You have correctly detected the changes in her that signaled her affair.

I will also tell you that withdrawal takes awhile. The affair is almost like a drug and until she gets through withdrawal she will be in and out of what we call the fog.

Finally, your desire and efforts to work on the marriage do NOT mean she is forgiven, nor does it mean you will succeed or not change your mind. However, if you decide you really want to work on this marriage, the tools you will learn here will help you in relationships whether it is this one or another. Also if you do decide that you don't want to continue this marriage due to her lack of effort, you will know you have done your best for her, you, and your children. In short, the effort to try and rebuild is worth it, no matter the outcome. My suggestion is go for it.

God Bless,

JL

Wow, powerful words Just Learning. Much appreciated.

yes, there are lots of things, more things than I can list. Knowing my WW for 20+ years I've seen her grown exponentially. Even with all that growing there are still times when she's selfish and above all, fails to communicate.

More later...she's sitting on couch and we are spending some quality time watching football...one of our favorite things to do.

Here's a question for you. I feel uncomfortable telling her I love her mainly because she doesn't say it back towards me. I still want to say it to let her know.

Good idea or bad idea?

My God Man! She must be an angel!


Instead why don’t you consider telling her how your love for her manifests itself? Let me explain. “I loved helping you with your work project,” or “I loved the way we built our house together,” or “I loved buying you flowers the other day,” or “I loved the way you smiled at the kids the other day.” Do you see the difference? “I love you,” says nothing except the proclamation of your feelings. “I love this or that about you,” is a much more overt statement that actually defines your love. It is less personal and more personal at the same time. Best of all, it requires no other response except a simple nod of the head and perhaps a smile.

Mr. G

Mr. G: WW an angel? Well not lately

But in the grand scope of our marriage she's been a wonderful life-long companion.

And the "love manifests itself" thing I really like! Wise words! Just this morning as we lie in bed talking (about the only time we actually get to be alone and really talk), she asked what I love about her.

I rambled on for a while...love her smile, her smell, love the inside jokes we have together that no one else sees. I love the way she interacts with our kiddos. Love the way she teases me, my Dad, my brother, my buddies (she can really be a smart-[censored]:). Love that we enjoy recreational activities together -- travel, fitness, watching football & baseball, spending time with kiddos/family. I love when she tells me to go hunting with buddies/family...that she'll take care of the kiddos. Love the way she used to hug me...like a kid hugs, close, tight, long (this was before the A). Love the way she bats her blue eyes at my Dad when she asks him for a favor. Love the way she dresses.

Yesterday was a tough day (tummy in knots), but last night after she got home we headed to the gym together for a workout. After we picked up some dinner and watched football.

I find myself wanting to do things for her -- rub back, start car in the morning, clean up around the house. I'm trying to avoid love busters and stay on the positive. I still get the sense she's in the fog. And I don't trust her one bit. The keylogger is going on computers today.

I feel a bit nervous about keylogging, afraid I might find out more incriminating information. But I need to snoop.

And the MB books getting ordered today as well.

Thanks for all the support. This site has been a Godsend! Without it I'm not sure what I would have done. It's nice to see a place and read stories about re-building marriages after infidelity. Keep the adivce coming...D.

I suggest that you print out the Emotional Needs questionnaire on
this site and that both you and your wife fill it out.

It might give you better insight into what you both need from each other, and where you are missing some things.

I highly recommend that you counsel with the Harley's. It is worth every penny.

Glad to see you are getting the books.

Your anger and reluctance to trust your wife are very normal. Just don't act out.

Step back and think what is healthiest for you and your family before you react to anything.

The keylogger is good. Just come here and get help before you react if you find stuff that really hurts.

Sounds like your WW is trying, but you guys really need to find out why your WW has been unfaithful twice in your marriage and what you can do to prevent that from happening again.

You are partly responsible for what has been wrong in your marriage, but you are NOT responsible for your WW's affair. That is a choice that she made, and regardless of what was going on in your relationship, that is NO excuse for an affair.

I admire you for giving her a second chance. I have to say it would probably be a deal breaker for me if my H was unfaithful again.

Best wishes!

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Of course.

Hey, she lost focus somewhere. We’re here to help you guide her to get that focus back. There is an education in these pages that will teach you both about life and love. I think it is essential that you both learn all there is.

One other observation:


You will find that your wife will carry this fear for many years. She knows that she is the one who messed up and she will worry that one day you will come to your senses and throw her out. She is worried that right now you are so shocked, hurt and concerned with the damage she has done that you will go to extra lengths to save the marriage. She likely fears that you will again gain your sanity and she will be paid back for her treachery. It may take forever to convince her otherwise.

Is she planning on attending any Marriage Counseling with you? Your counselor sounds sharp.

Mr. G

Miss M: Thanks for advice here. Emotional needs Q is printed out and I'm waiting for a good chance for us to fill out with interruptions.

I know I'm partly responsible...even realized that after A#1 many years ago. But you are right, and it's good to hear again that SHE made the decision to have an affair. No excuse.

When talking today I questioned her about going down that path -- starting the phone calls...continuing the calls/contact...hooking up in person in Vegas. She said she didn't want to tell me when she started having feelings for him for fear of hurting me. Then it all started spiraling out of control. She said she just couldn't control herself and stop.

Mr. G: Again, thanks. She's planning to meet with counselor asap. But the nearest time is Jan 13th(!?). I met with my counselor on Monday. We plan to do couples counseling as soon as possible.

My fear with counselors is that they will drive wedge between us with something. I'd consider Harley's but I really want to do in-person counseling at this time and see where things go.

WW tells me she felt out of control (see above), and doesn't know why she allowed herself to put our marriage, the kids, everything in jeapordy. She told friend she expected me to have her stuff thrown on lawn and locks changed after DDay#2 (this affair).

I'm sooooooo glad I found this site and am so appreciative of all the support. After DDay#1 (1996) I wanted to work on things, but received a lot of negative feedback from friends & family. Luckily I came to my own conclusion and had support of counselor at the time.

I have to keep reminding myself this isn't a quick fix. I want things to be back to normal, I want to forgive and forget...but I know I must be patient, keep following Plan A, being a good husband, avoiding love busters, hanging in there.

Watched the end of Castaway other night. Seeing Tom Hanks monolauge about "I've just got to keep breathing...the sun's going to come up tomorrow...you never know what the tide might bring in." That keeps me going.

Sorry I ramble. I've got no friends I can confide in right now and the family is out of the loop (they didn't handle A#1 well in 1996).

Thanks again for support and feedback. Very much appreciated.

My wife confessed her adultery to me (a collision course was inevitable) from a hotel room that she checked into, so sure she was that I would end the marriage. She told me that she was never so shocked in her life than when I told her to come home.


A good counselor will give good advice. You are perhaps worried because you have fear that you are somehow calculable for the state of your marriage. The answer is, that yes, you are calculable. She is too. Just remember, you are NOT responsible for her affair, she did that on her own. You have nothing to fear. You and your wife are on the same side, you just don’t know it yet. It is the counselor's target to help make that happen.


What are you waiting for? Is the appointment on Jan. 16 between your counselor and her? It is very reasonable and smart to have one counselor that initially meets with each of you separately and then together.


You’re doing great and I mean that. Enjoy the celebrating the New Year. Things are improving.

Mr. G

DNU,

The one single thing that must happen is that she take responsibility for how she handles stress, and issues in your marriage. Twice now she has chosen to have an affair. Meaning she learned NOTHING from the first affair. The goal here is that she learning something from this affair.

You cannot educate her, she will rebel against that. But, you can ask questions of her that might make her think.

You could ask: What did you tell yourself, that made it alright for you to violate YOUR OWN morals and promises?

What made it right in your mind to not honor your promises to yourself? DNU, many people don't realize but those vows we all took were really vows to ourselves. Who else was going to make sure we treated our spouses well, were faithful, acted in a loving manner? No one but US!

Ask her about her feelings about herself and the kids. IN short, while you cannot educate, you can cultivate.

Cultivate her thinking about herself and inspecting her thinking about herself. She failed herself more than she failed you or the kids. If she is a woman of any substance at all eventually, she will realize how big and deep this failing reaches within herself, and by coincidence how deeply it reached within you.

Why did she think an affair would improve anything. It certainly wasn't working on the marriage. It sure doesn't insure an orderly divorce. It does not address the kids needs. It violates her own boundaries and morals.

Ultimately, she will have to come up with a well defined plan to protect HER boundaries and thus protect the marriage. By this I am NOT talking about my diet "plan". I plan to lose 20 lbs.

Of course that is not a plan, because i have had this plan for years. Further, it has no action items, no feedback loop, no time line, no details at all. A plan to protect her boundaries has to have all of those.

AT some later time I will offer how I planned (and yes it was an actual plan) to stay faithful to my W of 30+ years. It worked, but it was very concrete,not just a wish.

As she comes out of this, she will need to make you a plan, and this is something you can also cultivate her thinking about.


"How do you plan to protect your own boundaries in the future?"

Let her ponder that one. The answer to it will ultimately determine whether you stay or go. If she has no plan or resists making one, then given the track record you know what is the likely outcome.

Must go. Happy New Year!

JL

JL, Thanks, an excellent question! One of my fears is that we work on the marriage and arrive in same place months/years down the road. This is good advice on how to protect the marriage.

I've mentioned giving each other e-mail and phone passwords, but she was hesitant. I didn't push, feeling that the fog was still in her. I'll re-address in future.

thanks again for the reply. Helps a TON!

Of course, The Plan! It is the key element to most ALL recoveries. It is the specific list of actions that your wife will author to insure that you (her husband) will ALWAYS be safe. It may be perhaps the single most loving thing one spouse can ever do for the other and in the case of infidelity it becomes a critical piece of recovery.

However, before she can begin to construct such a worthy effort she must come to grip with one all-important question, “Why did she have an affair?”

JL is on-spot with his assessment. I am willing to bet that your counselor may help too. In your next session ask him/her why people have affairs.

Time to put my party hat on. See you next year.

Mr. G

I cannot thank you all enough for the support and replies. My first posts here were reluctant...I was afraid I was going to get the "you must be a fool to keep her after A#2", "dump her", "don't be a doormat", etc., etc., etc.,

But I'm glad I stuck around! Today has been a much better day, mainly because my WW is talking more, opening up more, and the support here is fantastic!

I'm walking up street to the neighborhood new years party...and will have only a beer or two. No need to add liquid courage to my already fragile state of mind.

See you all next year...Happy New YEAR!

Just for New Years!!

Blessing for you in 2009!

The Lord bless you and keep you
The Lord lift His countenance upon you
And give you peace
And give you peace

The Lord make his face to shine
Upon you
And be gracious unto you
The Lord be gracious
Gracious unto you

Amen

Happy New Year!

May the Lord Bless you and your family. Praying for your recovery
and God's blessings on your children and your marriage.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Thanks Miss M, that's one of my favorite parts of a service.

Wife had to work, so walked up to nieghbors house for New Years party. One of wife's friends knows most of the story (about A#2, but not A#1) and I've talked to her a few times.

When new years hit I looked over to her and said, "hope 2009's better than 2008..." She smiled and said "Oh YES, me too!"



I'm thinking about the WW this morning and trying to identify things that hurt our relationship. Communication is a primary issue, but a broad stroke of the brush...so I dive deeper and came up with a few:

The phrase "I don't know" or IDK I hear this a lot when I ask a difficult question. I think it's the wife's way of insulating herself from difficult topics, of avoiding issues. It's extremely frustrating when she clams up and doesn't want to talk and uses "I don't know" to shut me down. Yet some times the IDK stems from her indecisiveness. Where you want to eat tonight? IDK.

The phrase "I'm tired." Again, a conversation ender used to get out of difficult questions, to put up barriers.

Intimacy communication. In our post DDay talks our love life came up. For the first time ever WW admitted our love life pretty much stunk. I was a little shocked to hear her say this, & I agreed and asked why the topic hadn't been brought up before? She was unsure how to approach topic, unsure how I would react. Upset that she couldn't reach O with me while having traditional sex. Felt our love life was stale and predictable. Yet not sure how to spice it up (I think she knows, she's just too insecure to tell me)

[on a side note, I'm unsure when to resume sexual activity with my wife? Haven't done EN Q's, but I'm sensing SF is going to be pretty high for me. I'm sure very low for her. Suggestions greatly appreciated]

Stubbornness. Wife is as much stubborn as she is indecisive. When I get an IDK it's hard to know when she's just being indecisive, or she's shutting me out. If I push too much more barriers go up and communication really breaks down. Can you see the communication issues we face are LARGE?!!

I'm a talker...love to hash out issues, examine all angles, think things through. But I've learned through being around her what topics to shy away from (yes, my BAD!). Find myself saying, "no, don't bring that up. don't like where that will go." or the famous "she can't be having an affiar...trust her." So from my side of the isle in this communication break down is the "he's holding back back."

DNU, I have just been catching up on your thread and see you are getting excellent advice from JustLearning and MrGoodstuff. A couple of concerns that stood out to me are:

1. has she ended all contact with her OM? If the OM is married, has his wife been notified of the affair?

2. is your marriage counselor a qualified counselor who understands the dynamics of adultery and uses MB principles? The reason I ask is that marriage counselors have the highest failure rate of any of the counseling disciplines at 84%. They are not pro-marriage and don't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage. It is very hard to find a good MC. Is your MC familiar with MB concepts?

IC is also troublesome and can cause huge problems in a marriage because most will counsel the client to pursue personal interests at the expense of a marriage. I have found that IC's tend to be trained to be AMORAL. What I mean by that is that if a client is doing something BAD, instead of counseling the client to stop doing the bad thing, they will teach them to lower their standards to accommodate the bad behavior so they will feel better. We have had IC's urge spouses to "separate" so they could test out the affair.

I agree that making demands is not the way to go, however, there are certain things that need to happen in order to effect recovery. This article by Dr Harley summarizes it well:

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair

I'll be honest, when I first read your post I was a little nervous and defensive. I want to be working in the right direction, following these guidelines. But some of them make me nervous and uncomfortable.

Yes, my wife has come clean with all details of the affair -- how started with phone/texting, continued to grow an emotional connection. Understood it was wrong and could possibly hurt me, family, but couldn't stop herself. couldn't talk to me for fear of hurting me.

It was her suggestion to meet in Vegas (he lives many, many miles away). I haven't asked those "what did you do in bed" questions. ASked that in A#1 and it was very hard to hear. Not sure I want to know that right now. She's being very honest with me and even brough up a love buster I had no idea I was doing to hurt her. We still struggle mightly with communication.

Wife is setting up counseling and is open and honest. She's not yet comfortable sharing e-mail, phone logs, etc., just yet. I believe she is still in fog of withdrawl. I've installed eBlaster and should have e-mail password by end of weekend.

We have spent a lot of time together since DDay. I'm trying best to stay away from LB's and meet as many of her EN's as possible. She seems really receptive, but again I'm worried about the counselors and how they will work with us.

I believe phone counseling is not the right thing for wife and I right now. Harley's may be in the future.

What else can I tell you?

IC = individual counseling? If that's the case, then yes, I see your point.

I don't think the OM will ever resume contact with my WW. I know him from two vacations spent together. Three years ago we did a "guys" vacation to do some hunting. Guys tend to brag about themselves, at least he did. In August of this year our family vacationed with him and extended family. That is where WW met him. Phone calls ensued from there...

He's 45 and divorced, live the bachelor's life. Good job, no ties, comes and goes as pleases. Very smooth talker. Gift of gab. Good looking guy. Bragged about how easy it was to meet women, woo them, get what he wanted and be done (gee, don't you think I should have had this conversation with WW during that vacation? Probably wouldn't have helped).

OM was very adamant about keeping his "friend" at distance and never marrying her. Liked the freedom to prowl.

I thought he was a player back when met him on the guys vacation. He was charming and gracious on the family vacation when wife met him.

I honestly struggle with confronting him on this issue. On the one hand I want him to know that I know. On the other hand what good will it do? He's a thousand miles away.

IC means independent counselor. I may have misunderstood you, but I thought I read you all were seeing IC's?


What makes you nervous and uncomfortable specifically?


Can you clarify why it would not be right? I have learned - through experience - that the Harleys can achieve more in 2 sessions than 25 sessions with most MC, just because they know what they are doing. They are worth every penny and are ACTION oriented rather than feeling oriented. It is because of this that they tend to me much more effective.

Good! I am concerned that she won't open her life to you, because people who have nothing to hide, don't hide, so I am glad you took action and put that keylogger on her computer.

The way I would present the steps to recovery is to tell her you have been reading up on this and "here is what I need in order to feel safe again." Show her that article from Dr Harley and see how she reacts.

I think I'm scared to confront him. No, I am scared to confront him. He's powerful personality and I sense a bit of a temper. I'm not sure what he might do if his "friend" is told of the A? MIght he react violently towards WW or me? That scares the crap out of me.

And I'm afraid if OM is confronted the A would be communicated to mutual friends and eventually get back to family. I'm not sure my family could forgive my WW for another affair. Our family is very close and I don't want them interfering while WW and I try to build our marriage back.

Counsling: I'm not doubting Harley's expertise in this area one bit. It's important to me to get non-verbals from counselor during sessions. I've met with counselor individually and WW is still trying to get a first meeting with a different counselor. Want to see where that leads us before deciding on a couples counselor.

DNU, I can't see any point in confronting the OM. I mean, he already knows your W is married and knows who you are. Is there a reason why you are considering this?

I do see great value in telling his GF, though. This is information that is pertinent to her life and she needs to know.


And I am sure you realize that the value of a counselor lies in his/her expertise, not in non-verbal communication? It is the quality of the verbal communication that matters.

Telling his GF would be confronting him in my eyes. GF would obviously confront him about the A and OM would know it came from me (or my wife) and what he might do scares the crap out of me. OM is former military, carry's concealed weapon at all times...can be very intimidating when wants to be.

I'd like my WW to send a NC letter and be done with it.

Yes, value of counselor lies in expertise, not non-verbal communication. Quality matters, yes, you are right. I'd like to give counselors a chance and see where that takes us. Harley's is in back of my mind and I've mentioned to WW already. For now I really think WW needs to be in a counselors office talking directly to a person to open talks.

I am not sure what your "fear" has to do with it, but it is ok to confront the OM; I just don't see the point. He has reason to be afraid of you, not the other way around. Telling his GF would not be confronting HIM, it would be exposing to her.

And this is something she needs to know that would also help protect your marriage. If there are 2 ppl wathing from both ends, you decrease the risk of a resumption. You help the OM do this to other people by helping him keep his secret. Truly she needs to know, your fears notwithstanding.

Yes, you are right.

I can come up with all the excuses I want...but what you said is completely correct.

Do I tell my WW I'm going to call the GF?

Should my WW call the GF and tell her?

More guidance here please...

And as much as I know this is the right thing to do, it may take me a while to build up the courage.

Reviewing notes from first counseling session. Counselor talks of building boundaries around your marraige to keep affairs from developing in the future.

I used that to bring up the transparency issues (sharing e-mails, text, phone records, etc.) and counselor agreed.

You should be the one to call, giving your wife no advance warning. Wait a few days and then tell your W you have told the OM's GF.

She may be mad at first, but the benefit here is that your W will not feel so free to pursue the OM if she knows the GF knows and is watching and knows how to contact you. We have had WW's tell us that after the OM's wife knew, they gave up because they knew she was watching for contact.

PERFECT! You are on the right track, DNU.

During the recovery process there will be many aspects of past marriage practices that you will examine, some alone but hopefully most together. As you each begin to examine your most important emotional needs the bigger pieces of your relationship puzzle will begin to surface. Things will begin to seem clearer, more informative.

Your wife’s proclamation of “I don’t know” is partly to obscure her embarrassment and I suspect, mostly because she simply “does not know.” When people perform actions on the basis of “feelings” they are seldom able to formulate a cognitive response or suitable explanation of why they did what they did. That is why it is always important to think with your head before thinking with your heart. Love with your brain and let the heart follow. If you do that (and she does that) then love will ALWAYS manifest itself as a set of caring and considerate ACTIONS, i.e. the things that each does for the other to help enrich the relationship. “I love you,” while always nice to hear, can NEVER stand on its own, it takes actions to create and maintain love.

Let’s revisit some of your past comments so that we can now examine them in this latter context. I think a few things that Melody mentioned might gain some additional importance.


And


And


It certainly appears that she still harbors great interest in the other man. You should watch this carefully. While she appears that she wants to return to the marriage the lure of the other man remains. Of that, you can be certain. I know how hopeful you are and honestly, you have good reason to be hopeful. There are many great signs that point to recovery for your wife and you. There is however a “but”. Stay guarded in case your wife fails to maintain NO CONTACT. It seldom happens without great trauma and maintaining NO CONTACT can be very difficult, at least in the initial days following her first promise of NO CONTACT. Many waywards initially fail at NO CONTACT only to get back up on the horse and try again. So my advice on this is to “stay guarded” for a disappointment. If she falters in NO CONTACT there are actions that you can take to hasten its return.

The sharing of her emails, passwords, phone, etc. is her gift to you of transparency. She does this for you so that you can breathe easy without worrying that she is up to mischief. It is an important and NECESSARY element to recovery. Are you familiar with the “Giver and Taker”? Right now, you are the consummate “giver” doing whatever is necessary to preserve your marriage no matter what the cost to your own emotional stability. But the simple fact is that over time your “giver” will run out of steam. You cannot maintain the endless “hand wringing” every time your wife leaves the house, or her phone rings or when she sits at the computer. Transparency is one of the many gifts of love that you will each exchange with one another during this long recovery process. And you will notice that this gift of love, like all gifts of love, is an “action”.

Your wife mentioned “closure” with the other man. Yikes, how about we push him off the edge of a tall building, how’s that for “closure”. Seriously, I agree there should be “closure” but it is not the way your wife might imagine. Closure of her affair should end with a final “end-all” email or letter from her to him. It should describe that she is returning to her marriage with you and that he should respect this decision and NEVER attempt to contact her again. There are wonderful examples of such letters and sending one is a recovery key and incidentally another gift of love from her to you. It should be sent in your presence with your final "buy-off" on its content.

You also mentioned that she keep no secrets from you. But you said it even better; you said that you wanted to open up your lives to each other. There is a great deal to say about privacy verses secrecy. The two are very different. I bet you are smart enough to distinguish the difference on your own. These forums are blanketed with discussions of privacy verses secrecy. What is most important is how these terms fit within Dr. Harley concept of Radical Honesty. To me, Radical Honesty has always been one of his most important identifications. Secrecy cannot exist within Radical Honesty but more importantly do you know what really flourishes there, the love of your partner. Radical Honesty becomes the garden by which your love for each other can grow. The ability to face your spouse without a hidden agenda will serve you both for the rest of your days.

Finely, I would like to reinforce Melody’s concern with most Marriage Counselors.

You said:

Sure sound like the real deal. Please keep Melody’s caution at hand; there are so many disappointments out there. If it appears that this counselor is anything but “Pro-Marriage” then run, don’t walk, out of his office, with your wife in tow.

Keep your chin up,

Mr. G

Man, you guys are GREAT! I'm getting emotional just reading this. It's sooooooo wonderful to hear positive feedback and hear that I'm on the right path!

I'd give you all a big ol bear hug if you were present! Can't thank you enough!

And yes, I made it clear to my counselor that I wanted a pro-marriage approach. He understands that.

Again, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

Well, you're giving as good as you're getting, per your posts on my "wavering" thread - so thank YOU! This is what MB is about!

- M

No, no, no. It must be with the same counselor, first separately and latter together. You need someone to work to a common end. Not two different therapists saying two different things. That is what will happen. Understand that the mess you are in is really much simpler than most outsiders would understand. Forget about all the psycho babble buzz words and childhood impact that might be a contributing factor. That kind of stuff is flat out off base. Your problem and your wife’s problem is related to simple breakdowns in communication and a failure to understand the concept of what marriage and family and love really entail and mean. That is the correct target to attack and the very shortest path to the finish line.

I'm with you MR. G. I'm not sure my wife would work well with the counselor I met...he's in to analogies, beats around the bush a little too much.

When she finds a counselor she's comfy with my plan is to work with them individually and couples. I'm right with you here.

Question for you all: when to resume SF?

Haven't done ENQ, but I'm sensing that SF is going to be pretty high for me. Sensing for the wife it's much lower. We havent' been intimate since probably Dec 22nd (although I did fly yesterday).

We both know that our sex life has been stale and predictable. and WW feels upset that she can't O while we are having intercourse.

Okay, maybe too much information here...but I feel comfy talking to you all.

Suggestions?

Have the two of you been tested for STDs? You say this guy is a player and has had sex with many women.

Good question. We've had sex probably 15 times since their hookup. I asked the WW about testing and she doesn't have an STD. I was too upset to ask about condoms at the time (just after DDay). I'll revist the topic soon.

But back to original post...

When's time for SF? Suggestions?

If you want sex and she wants sex, I see no reason not to have sex.

I have not experienced a physical betrayal, but from reading on this site, I know it is common for a wayward to say they used condoms and then the betrayed spouse finds out they did not use condoms.

How do you know she does not have an STD?

Other than being concerned about a life/health threatening STD (and there are members of this forum who are in that situation), I see no reason not to have sex with her. She is telling you that there is no contact right? And you have no reason to suspect contact, except that she is being slow on giving you her passwords.

Why do you think she is reluctant to give you her passwords?

My sense is she's not over him completely. Still in withdrawl. Voiced concern that their was no closure from him, just communication ceased (OM refusing to answer her calls, texts, e-mails, etc.)

I will re-address this issue in future, but put it in way that talks about transperency in our relationship and a gift to me of security in our marriage.

DNU, you might want to frame it more realistically so she understands that transparency is a REQUIREMENT for recovery, not an option. If you frame is as a GIFT, she may view it as an OPTION, when it is not optional at all when it comes to marital recovery. It is the only way your marriage will recover and the only way you can possibly feel safe.

Now, if are willing to stay in a marriage and NOT recover, but go through this again, you would want to make that clear too. But in order for your marriage to recover, there has to be transparency.

While you wouldn't want to DEMAND, you would want to make clear your BOUNDARIES and under what conditions you are willing to stay in the marriage.

And I agree with you about the reason she does not want to give up her passwords is so she can continue to pursue the OM. She still has HOPE for the affair. That hope can be dashed much faster if you call the OM GF.
\
Here is a MUST READ article for all betrayed spouses that really opened my eyes. You really "should" read it!

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Thanks Melody. Kids and I are heading up to see her at work. I will read soon.

Again, thanks for all the support here!

Update: I continue to bang away at her ENs and remain a calm and collected spouse...the best husband a woman could have. It's strange because Nov 6th, just days after the Vegas rendezvous she opened up a can of whoop-behind on my about our marriage, her dissatisfaction with my efforts, resentment, etc. So I buckled down and really worked on the things I would later come to know as ENs.

At first I was resentful of her & I felt like a jerk for not seeing this earlier. And as I worked and worked to make things better a strange thing happened -- I began to enjoy meeting her ENs.

So after DDay and reading here I continue to work on the ENs and do my best to spend time with her. And gradually she's calling more, texting more, asking me to be near her more. And the other day she blew my socks off...she returned from shopping and handed me a bag of cheese popcorn. Popcorn, you say? What's special about that. Well, it's special because I'm the only one in the house who really likes that cheese popcorn. And she said "I got this for you"(!!!!, emphasis mine!). Really made myday.

I have so many more questions, and we have such a log way to go. But I'm seeing progress. And that's good in my eyes.

So after ~60 posts in this thread I'm thinking it's time to give my WW a taste of MB.com by means of an article or two...or three

And that's the question I have for you tonight. Which article to start with? Then where? (yes, books ordered tomorrow). My sense is she won't be able to see counselor until around Jan 13-14th(?) So I got some time to introduce her to Harley's concepts

SSsssssshhhhsssss, I've already been doing that in my own little subtle way

DNU,

My recommendation is something like Harley's four rules for a good marriage. And the articles on the policies of: Radical honesty and joint agreement. He has some letters on affairs and what to do as well.

The book Surviving an Affair by Harley would be good for you to read and for her to read. But, you cannot educate her, so be careful about appearing to force her to read these things.

I might suggest you leave laying around the print outs of the previously mentioned articles. She just may be curious and read them.

PLEASE don't try to educate her.

More importantly is that you start to really formulate YOUR BOUNDARIES in this marriage. She needs to know them. NO threats, no ultimatums, simple statements of what you can life with and what you cannot. Also no real statements of consequences, just general statements.

Mel is right, she must be transparent, and this MUST NOT BE HANDLED LIKE HER LAST AFFAIR WAS.

Hence my recommendations of Harley's four rules and his two policies. They will prompt discussion and conversation and that is a start.

What you also need to make her understand is that you have decided to TRY and rebuild this marriage once again, but you have not decided to STAY in this marriage if it remains as it was/is. That decision depends on the responses and contributions she makes to the marriage as much as it does on you and your actions.

Must go, it is getting late.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL, wise words. I agree with not trying to educate her. Thanks.

And the keylogger ROCKS! I would have never figured out her e-mail password without it.

More good news. No crazy e-mails to or from the OM since I last had access to her account. You might remember it was the open e-mail account (hotmail) that led to DDay. She simply forgot to close it down and log off.

While I feel kind of creepy for keylogging her, I'm pleased that there were no surprises this time around. We continue to talk and spend quality time together. I keep reminding myself to be positive, meet ENs, not love-bust.

I would leave the book, Surviving an affair lying around. Go check out the Q&A articles because there are lots of good letters in there from wayward wives. Hopefully when you say you are being subtle, you mean you are just leaving them lying around and not pushing them on her? That would be a lovebuster to push this on her.

And something else I will just warn you about so you don't get discouraged. She is in withdrawal right now so you will not be able to meet many needs. You are doing better than most, though. Just don't be discouraged if you don't get much response.

edited to add: I posted before i read JustLearning's excellent post! He said it better than me.

More good conversations with the WW this morning. A few topics for discussion:

1. We spend a lot of time together and we don't talk about our marriage or the A much. I enjoy being around her (need to fill out my ENQ). She brought up an interesting topic, that is the topic of talking about the A. Her words were something like, "I kind of feel if we don't talk about it, well, it's just going to go away...but I know we have to talk about the affair."

I feel similar -- want to talk about the A and our marriage, but don't want to over-do it. So the question for today is where is the middle ground?

2. SF. Have not filled out the ENQ, but I'm pretty sure SF is high on my ENs. I'm not totally comfy with thought of having sex with the wife, but the urge was getting to me. So I brought up the topic this morning. WWs not completely comfy either, and expressed that to me (communication, that's a good thing!).

We have lots of issues with regard to intimacy and sex life. Both are afraid to express ourselves fully, I realize that. I asked if she wanted to talk more and she just isn't ready (note to self, avoid LBs...be calm...supportive...)

The question then becomes how do I get SF? Wouldn't bother me to fly solo, but how do I word that to her? It's going to be an awkward conversation for both of us.

She's walked in when I've been looking at on-line stuff...okay, I'll call it what it really is - porn. She's never walked in when I've been "flying-solo." We've talked a little about it, but that remains one of those underlying, non-spoken subjects. Probably why I'm having trouble bringing up the SF need to her. (heck, it's even hard typing this here!).

Feedback in this touchy area greatly appreciated.

First off, I would lose the porn. You wouldn't believe how much damage we see on this forum from porn. It is bad for marriages, no matter how you look at it.

It would be GREAT for you to have sex, because women feel more bonded to men after they have sex. I wouldn't be talking about it so much as just doing it. Try to be spontaneous and just seduce her. Once you do it ONCE, you should feel closer.

Why are you avoiding this discussion? If she wants to talk about it, talk about it. If you want to talk about it, talk about it. The only thing you have to avoid is lovebusters.

DNU,

Well there are many strategies about discussing the affair. The ones I like were posted and done many many years ago here.

The first one is to agree to discuss it say once or twice a week, but limit the time to say an hour or so. No one solves all of the problems of the universe in an hour or so, except perhaps myself , but the idea is go slowly but steadily.

The second strategy I like is for you to write down the questions you have. Do so a few days ahead of a conversation, then write down why you need to know this and how the information will help you. Let it sit for a few days and then see if you REALLY need the information. If you do, then it becomes a question to discuss.

Now here is the part that is kind of interesting. Give the list of questions to your W along with the why you need to know. Let her have this a few days ahead of the discussion, and let her pick the ones she wants to answer and discuss.

The third stategy I like is really the policy of joint agreement POJA. Talk with her about these ideas, see if she has any suggestions that would make them more effective for you her. She may want to produce a list of questions of her own, who knows, but the same rules apply.

Eventually, all of your questions will need to be answered, and I am sure as the discussions continue new questions will come up.

Nevertheless, involving her in deciding to use these approaches and the using these approaches seems to me a good way to not only use the policies Harley recommends (radical honesty, joint agreement) but it starts you two learning how to negotiate.

Finally, and this is farther off. If you two discover issues in your marriage that really you don't see eye to eye on, switch roles and you become her and she you, and then see if you can find a solution. Ultimately, what you both need to come to understand that you both need to end up happy in this marriage and that means you really are on the same side.

This leads to my last point. The discussions of the A should in the best of worlds not be adversarial. Ask her "to help you understand what happened, what she is thinking, how she would like to see things resolved", etc. Invite her to help you, and offer to help her. The key is for both of you to keep your defenses down.

Must go, I hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

You are absolutely right on the porn thing. "flying solo" was mainly a result of me not wanting to bother her with my urges, or her being tired and me feeling guilty about asking for SF so much.

I think the porn aspect entered when got faster internet, and too much free time. Again, you are spot on here.

And as far as being spontaneous and seducing her...I'm not one to kiss and tell, so I'll just leave it as

You are a very bad boy!

way to go!

JL: Wise words here once again. Thank you!

Appreciate the slow but steady approach. I like. The thing is we've talked so much in the past week that I've pretty much got most all of my questions answered. Yes, more come up there and there. In fact one popped into my head last night and WW seemed open and honest in her reply.

I don't want to know the details of the physical hook up in Vegas. Asked those questions after A#1 and it was hard to hear her doing things with OM that didn't/wouldn't do with me. Hard images to get out of my mind.

I guess what concerns me is that she doesn't have many questions for me, if any. WW has always been quiet with regards to deep personal stuff. I often have to keep digging to get her to open up (warning, warning...issue to continue working on in this marriage!)

She mentioned the feeling that if she doesn't talk about or think about A it will just go away (again, warning), but she followed up immediately with statment "but I know we need to discuss this and work on our marriage."

I continue to bust my behind to meet ENs and she seems to be responding. I'm seeing little things I haven't seen in a while -- the way she touches me, looks at me, is near me. It's little things, but progress none the less.

I need to remember to support her, not pressure her, stay away from LBs, remain calm and cool (that's hard some days).

Thanks. SF need met!

The whole intimacy thing is going to be probably one of the most difficult issues for us to discuss. She grew up Catholic and is a bit reserved. I think there is a lot of passion deep down inside her, but getting her to talk about it is going to be one of my greatest challenges!

I need to be patient right now and allow her to work through withdrawl of OM. And to continue to bond with me.

As much as I'd like to FForward through these tough times, I realize and embrace the journey.

I just wanted to agree with Melody about porn, its the only thing my husband has done in our marriage that makes me want to run far far away and never let him touch me again.

I see that you already agreed but I couldn't not say something as it destroyed my self esteem and desire to be close to him when I found out he'd been "flying solo" looking at another girl's naked body.

I have been reading your thread and would like to add a few things from my experience

Many years ago my H had an A, all these years later things never quit got worked out, we lived under the same roof but had different lives, I never felt safe, I knew he had more secrets, we could never really be intimate, he always had to lie and cover up things that he did not want me to know,and there were times he slipped up and I would sometimes question H, and H would lie, things started to build, I now was asking for truths, he still lied, I got a moving truck and moved out, I was out 4 days and he came clean, with more A's, and an EA.
The point of my story is; your W might have ONLY done what you know, but if there are secrets there can never really be the true intimacy in feelings and thought that you want out of a M, she has to be completely truthful with everything she has done against the M.
My H also lied to the MC for 6 months, so that was money completely down the drain. H said he didn't want to hurt me with more but the reality is he was protecting himself.
You NEED to know it all, trust me on that one

Doingfine: Yes, I agree that I need to know all. I periodically ask her if there have been more A's, other men besides what I know (EA, PA, etc.). She continues to look me dead in the eye and tell me no.

What I mean by "not wanting to know all" is that I don't want to know things like sexual positions. I know about the OM, what she found attractive, what she found sexy, conversations they had, how the actual hook up came about (she says it was mainly her pushing for the vegas meeting...hard to hear, but it was the truth), etc.

Those are hard things to hear, but I have to deal with them and move foward.

I've keylogged her e-mail and facebook passwords and have been keeping an eye on her. And she's leaving her blackberry around the house unlocked. I'm growing more at ease with picking it up and looking at it when she's around (and I'm snooping when she's not around

Update: WW has always been touchy-feely. Looking back I've noticed me not meeting that EN for a while -- wanting to "get things done around here" mentality. Not spending enough time just hanging out, snuggling w/ her. So in past week I've tried to be more in tune to her EN. Feeling more intimate with her.

Anyway, she's long banged on me for the tighty-white underwear. Wanted to see me in boxers or boxer briefs. When I was getting her some x-mas gifts back in mid Dec I picked up some boxer briefs, but didn't get them out until Xmas (knew she would put 2+2 and figure where I was shopping). So long story short I throw on the new undies yesterday and she gives me the "i like those" look. Haven't seen that in a while...makes me feel GREAT.

This morning I throw on another pair and she stopps putting on make up, walks over and grabs my behind and makes a comment I can't really post here Holy crap! That was cool!

Sorry, had to share. Still don't trust her and will continue to work on ENs, stopping LBs, snooping, etc. But that made my day!

That's it for now. I'm off to earn some tokens into heaven -- mother-in-law has new computer and needs help setting it up. Note: setting up e-mail is exponentially easier when you know the passwords. Strike that, when you know that e-mail even NEEDS a password.

Need a little advice on dealing with the OM. As stated before he's a hunting buddy of mine. Hunted together for a week in 2001, again in 2002, then took a long outback type camping trip in 2005. Spent week in his town this summer, 2008...wife met him there, families spent lots of time together, WW made a connection and eventually started calling him after returning from trip, blah, blah, Vegas hook up, you know the story.

Here's the rub. I'm friends with the OM (okay, WAS friends), and met him through his brother...a much better friend of mine. And I've grown to like the third brother. Confusing, so here's explanation:

F#1: worked with him for year, hunted several times, good man. Known him since 1997. Introduced me to his two brothers...
OM: older brother to F#1, met him on hunting trip, spent time hunting with him on three occasions, even a week long outback camping trip. F#1 asks my family to come with them on vacation this summer to OMs town.
F#3: middle brother of the three, met him through F#1. A bit quirky, but good fellow none the less. Lives in same town as OM.

So today I get a call from OM & F#3's area code. OM doesn't know that I know about the A. I'm thinking answer the phone? Or not? Give him piece of my mind, or just ignore him (no I haven't contacted OM's GF yet, so no reason for OM to call me).

Well, turns out it's F#3 (whew!). We talk, no mention of OM at all (good).

The rub is this. I'm pretty sure F#1 and F#3 are going to invite me on trip some time in future. I'm not at all comfortable spending time or even seeing OM. Thought about handling in this way, give me some feedback.

F#1: "Hey D, we are thinking of doing a trip. Me F#3 and OM, want to go?"

Me: "Well, if OMs going I respectfully decline."

F#1: "WTF?"

Me: "Me and OM had a falling out. I'm just going to leave it at that. If you want more information you are going to have to talk to your brother(OM)"

[Note, WW has not had contact with the OM in over a month now...by his choice. I believe she's still in withdrawl, but getting better daily]

And part of me wants to call OM just to say, "hey, thought you were my friend...very disappointed this happened, please don't ever contact me, my WW or family again..."

Thoughts? Suggestions?

DN --

I don't see that you have contacted OM's GF yet.

I really encourage you to do so.

20+ years ago I was dating (then engaged) to a man who was cheating on me. No one told me. There were so very many people who could have.

I married this man. I had children with this man. And no one ever told me that I was making these decisions without all of the information. I deserved to KNOW all the facts about this man.

I cannot tell you how angry I felt when I learned about his betrayal. I didn't just feel betrayed by HIM, but by everyone who didn't speak, didn't tell me what the real truth was.

Just one person could have saved me. But no one did.

DNU1,

You need to understand that I'm also a serious hunter ... hobby breeder and trainer of english setter grouse dogs. I also have lots of male friends/acquaintances through this sport ... many of which I've taken extended hunting trips with. Why I'm telling you this is because I fully UNDERSTAND the dynamic of "hunting buddies".

You should also note that I'm a fellow BH.

With that background and the experience that I've gleened from it ... here is what I would have said to F#3:

"I'm sorry F#3, I've always liked you and your brother F#1. However, due to your other brother OM having an adulterous affair with my WW, I'm afraid that none of us will EVER be friends again. My WW and I are trying to recover our M from the damage done from her and OM's A, and any contact with any of you would only set back that effort. I trust you understand that I didn't cause this to be this way and I will miss our friendship. Goodbye."

It is best to just make clean cuts where possible. This will also serve up the side benefit of exposing OM to his family as you can bet that F#3 will be on the phone to F#1 immediately after you tell him, and it will filter back to OM and OMGF.

Just so you'll know, we also had to cut 2 of my W's friends out of our circle of acquaintances ... one because she was toxic and encouraged my W's A, and the other simply because she represented a trigger for me, just like your previous hunting buddies would be for you.

Also, we told both of these friends EXACTLY why we were cutting them out of our lives, not that mamby pamby reply about you and OM having a falling out like you are contemplating.

This A stuff is UGLY business and needs to be discussed in a straight forward manner, including the consequences that come from such ugliness.


I don't understand such a wimpy confrontation with someone who betrayed your friendship. I can gaurantee you that if one of my hunting buddies/acquaintances had pulled this stunt, my reponse would have been MUCH MORE PERSONAL than a phone exchange about my "disappointment".

EXACTLY what does it take to pi$$ you off???

My suggestion would be to put away the crackpipe and stop enabling the OM. How about:

Me: Your brother, OM, has had an affair with my wife and it because of that that I must decline all hunting trips. I am sorry this happened, but what your brother has done is so painful to me and my family that I cant come anymore.

Why would you cover up for the OM, DNU? You are doing NO ONE any favors by hiding what a scumbag he is. Further, these brothers need to know what a slime he is so they can protect their own marriages from him.

Evil thrives when good men stand silent, DNU. Don't be an enabler, my friend. STAND TALL and do the right thing.

DNU,

I agree with MyRev and Mel. Let's put it this way, an affair is one thing, wondering around with guns in this mess is an entirely different thing. One of the reasons 'hunting buddies' are often close is there is an element of TRUST involved given that all have weapons and accidents could happen if care and respect are not present.

I would definitely agree with Lexxxy as well. OM's girl friend needs to know the truth. What she does with it is her call, but you need to let her know the truth.

Sadly, OM has cost you some friends and still may cost you your marriage. Your WW is not a FWW yet. She is working on it.

Please take this opportunity to be with OM was not and your W was not...HONEST.

God Bless,

JL

Damn, I thought you all were going to come with that. And once again you are correct.

I guess my feelings on this were to put the lid on exposure for now and see just where WW was with regard to OM...lurking, snooping, watching. And sticking to Plan A, the NC agreement and moving forward with our marriage.

I felt that if OM was really done with her and she over him, why expose to anyone but the OMs GF?

WW really likes F#1 (& his wife) and F#3. I was hoping to maintain that contact / friendship and be able to cut OM out of the picture.

Clearly you are stating that will be a difficult option. Blood is thicker than friendship.

And yes, the OMs GF is going to be told. First I need to build up the courage...then develop a speech. Then find her darn phone #.

Yes she will be informed.

DNU, the affair needs to be exposed everywhere. Expose to these brothers, their parents, the OM GF. Get it all out there so it is likely to die and stay killed. I would not be hanging out with this family any more lest you risk them running into each other again. Exposure is like chemotherapy to cancer. The more exposed, the more deadly the exposure. They should ALL KNOW.

Dr Harley:

"I'm in the process of rewriting "Surviving an Affair" to add information about plan B. Some of the main points are as follows:
Whether in plan A or B, the world should know about your husband's affair. All of your relatives, your friends, your children, and the licensing board for your husband's lover. In some states a licensing board will revoke a license if a counselor is having an affair with a married person, client or not. This is because it's well known that affairs hurt families, especially children. And counselors know better than to have an affair.

The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is.

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery. "

Courage is a CHOICE, a decision. It is not something you build up or grow into; it is not something that magically alights on you against your will. It is a choice. And you choose the time. It can be NOW, or it can be in 30 minutes. But the sooner you get it done, the faster you can go to work on your marriage. DElaying exposure delays recovery.

I KNOW its not easy to cut off friendships ... but also keep in mind that F#3 and F#1 are OM's brothers. They likely either already KNOW about OM and WW or that OM has had other questionable relationships. Typically, OM just don't "accidentally" wind up sleeping with married women ... this is likely a pattern with him. Either way, you're better with all 3 of the brothers out of your life PERMANENTLY ... and it never hurts to let them know that it was their brother's actions that caused the breaking up of the friendships.

However, my main concern in your situation is your RELUCTANCE to take any action ... what are you afraid of??? Be honest about this, and we can help you get past it.

Honestly, I'm pissed, ashamed, afraid, mad, upset, trying to find my own way and trying to do what's right.

My family has always had this false sense of "openness." Parents always said "you can tell us anything." But when Dad came down with crazy illness parents decided to not tell the children (us) for fear we might not understand or worry too much. Dad's not a big talker but Mom is, on the surface anyway.

Immediately after DDay#1 (1996) I called my Mom and told her pretty much everything. Wanted her opinion as I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. Told my sister, brother, their families, WW's family, etc. Exposed to the world but had no idea what exposure was back then. Counselor said to be careful about telling family as they might not forgive should I decide to work on marriage.

I did decide to work on marriage and it took a very long time for things to heal with family, both hers and mine. Wife owned the A and appologised to family and friends that knew. Took them a very long time to get over.

And that's probably the one regret that I had with A#1...wish I would have kept to myself. @ DDay #1 the A was over and wife was committed to working on marriage, that's when she came clean.

With DDay#2 I kept to myself and thought long and hard what I wanted to do. didn't want those outside influences saying "you need to dump her" or "you must save the marraige." I needed to do what I wanted to do, regardless of any external forces, influences.

I know now that I want badly to work on this marriage. That's going to be hard enough to deal with. My sense is having family know at this point will make working on the marriage more difficult. My Mom and sister would be calling me daily asking how things were going, trying to dig me for info while simultaneously banging on WW. I need to connect with my WW, not spend all day defending my decisions.

I know, exposing and making things hard for her is the point of ending the A. But there has been no contact in over a month and I don't expect any. We have an NC. At this point in time I don't see the value in exposing...the affair is dead.

And I guess that's my reluctance to expose to hunting buddies. Buddies know my Dad and brother...might this come up some time over beers? Slip of the mouth?

I fully understand that the GF needs to be told, and will do that. After hearing more feedback here I understand the link between F#1, F#3 and OM being brothers will make friendship impossible. I'll need to sever ties.

I need to process those conversations more in my head and strategically pick a time where I can contact GF, F#1 and F#3 in order. Want them to hear from me...not the OM.

That's it in a nutshell. Thank you again for the feedback. And helping me gather courage to do things I wouldn't have done without your assisance! It's easy for me to give to others, to lend a helping hand, to sacrafice for friends and family. It's hard for me to do things FOR me. Just how I'm wired. I'm a good friend to have because I'll do my darndest to help out. And here in lies a problem...I see it, you see it, now we just have to get past it.

DNU, did you read what Dr Harley said about exposure? I dare say he is a little more qualified and experienced than your counselor. You are already on here planning how you can LIE to cover up the affair and protect the affairees from embarassment. Talk about ENABLING! That HARMS them instead. The only thing you help with your secrecy is the AFFAIR.

You have already admitted that your W has not given up. Your helping her hide this secret enables her path back. If the OM GF and your friends and his family don't know, that leaves the door wide open. Staying friends with all these people ensures that a time will come when your W and you are exposed to the OM again. Your wife can hear about and ask about the OM from his sisters in law and brothers. I see so many pitfalls with your secrecy that the possibilities are endless.

I can think of no good reason to NOT expose it to these people and end your friendships, DNU. NOT ONE. Your fears are leading to you some very bad decision making, DNU.

Thank you Melody.

Once again you are right. Ending friendships with F#1, F#3 won't be that hard. They are literally 1000's of miles away on other side of country. And OM and his GF are even further away! That's good.

You are right, I am scared. I want to do the right thing. Ending the friendships is the right thing.

DNU, I am so sorry about all this. But can you imagine the tangled web you would weave if you continued to hide this? The only beneficiary of that would be the affair. The OM would be free to pursue his brothers wives. And that would be a disservice to your friends.

You would have to concoct a new lie every year. Might as well get it all out now and all can be forgotten by next year.

I know how it feels to be scared to expose. It's very scary! This is tough stuff. I have had to do this myself and it is not easy. I had to make a decision to do it, suck it up and get er done, putting my fears aside.

The OM GF will not be easy, DNU. And your heart will be broken afterwards. It is a horrible, hard thing to do.............but I promise you, it is the RIGHT THING. A good man does the right thing even when it is hard. And I can tell you are a good man.

Thank you.

OMs GF will not be hard for me to talk to. I've delivered much worse information in the past as result of my jobs. Finding her phone number might be difficult.

And maybe deep down inside I'm scared of what ex-military, gun-toting OM will do?

You are right, hiding this won't make it go away. Exposing to OMs GF, F#1 and F#3 will help the healing process.

thank you again!

OM wont do crap. He will be a chicken

I sincerely hope you are correct. Knowing as I do I'm not sure what his response will be.

My OM is the same way. Ex-Marine(I know, there is no such thing) and all. 6'5" and about 260 lbs. But he never said jack to me.

On a slightly different note: I mentioned to WW that I purchased Surviving Affair book and she said she would like to look at it when arrives.

And she set up time to see counselor today...with no prodding or pushing from me.

And she referred to the OM as 'that a-hole' today.

Progress...slow, but steady.

Need to log-off...wife home from gym with girlfriend soon. Need to deposit in her love bank

Been doing a lot of thinking lately (imagine that...). WW and I have been reminiscing about the past, re-living and re-connecting. It's been good, and bad at the same time.

Some thoughts...

Way back in the 80's the WW and I had been dating about a year when she gave me the now famous "I want to date around" speech. Now I liked her, but didn't know if she was the woman for me. So I agreed and hung around, trying to improve myself (what I now see was a Plan A type thing).

Well, after a week to 10 days of not feeling right about this, getting the knot in my gut when I called to see if we could go out and hearing the "I've got plans", I said enough. I told her, "either I'm your ONLY boyfriend or I'm outa here." She could not decide. Didn't want to loose me, but didn't want to stop dating around.

So I said, "your indecision is your decision...I can't be 1/2 your boyfriend. I'm out of here." I asked for my stuff and left. Lots of tears on her part.

She tried to keep in contact, but I told her it was too painful to know she was dating other men. We needed to stop talking (Plan B, executed with precision and comleteness).

Week later she sees me in video store with a friend who happened to be female. I get the call later that night from WW...wants me back, doesn't want to date around. We work on things and relationship grows to marriage.

Fast forward to my grad school, her medical school (1994-96). She struggles to get in but when she does really excells. Confidence grows. I feel like she's sprouting wings and give her some space (DANGER, wrong move). I concentrate more on my school & work and A#1 develops.

She sits next to OM in school 6-8 hours a day building an EA (94-summer 95). Becomes PA after one year in school and WW tells me doesn't know if she loves me in August of '95. I buckle down and try hard at our marriage (Plan A). Keep giving, giving, giving, and giving more. And keep asking if there is another man. She denies (fog).

Keep working my tail off...finally in April of 96 she agrees to counseling. She finally comes clean wants to work on the marriage (affair over -- less fog) and I'm thunderstruck. Counselor helps us work though things and we make progress. Our relationship grows much deeper and stronger than ever before.

FF again and we are in great neighborhood with friends, close to family, she's got great job, kids happy. Me, I'm happy...and I think this is where we start going down hill again. She calls / texts a lot and I don't want to be bothered (yes, I see it now...was not meeting her needs). I feel comfy in marriage and don't try as hard. Don't deposit in love bank. PUsh her away unknowingly, trying to get her to be more independent and strong in her job. And I'm struggling to re-discover myself. Looking inward when should have been looking to her.

I see it now. It's as clear as can be. She wasn't getting from me what she needed -- those ENs met. It wore on her, it sapped her strength in this relationship. Made her vulnerable.

When we were on vacation (Aug 2008) and she met the OM they connected. I saw it, but just thought it was friendly, innocent. It developed. It "got out of hand" as she recalls. She was out of control (hello FOG!).

Then the November blow up - just after the Vegas hook up. She opens up and attacks, saying I wasn't doing what I needed to do around the house. I thank her for the feedback & buckled down and refused to ask about an A. FF to DDay and here we are.

Things that concern me: her insecurity, her ability to flat out lie (our youngest daughter has a lying issue...i'd never known where came from until looking back at our history), our communication problems (both of us!).

Some days I struggle. I think today is one of those days. I look to her for little signs that things are progressing. My mind wanders. I think bad thoughts. Then I read more here, compare with other situations and thank God I am where I am.

As bleak as things are it could be much, much worse. I thank all of you for the continued support and feedback.

It it weren't for MB.com I'd either be in Plan D or building the foundation for A#3! Thank you again...D.

ACTUALLY, that is EXACTLY where you ARE!!!

No consequences for your WW's actions = NO CHANGE. Given her history, she is just waiting on you to grow complacent and "SURPRISE" ... OM#3!!!

You WON'T expose to OMGF (or anyone for that matter) ...you WON'T confront OM ... you WON'T establish and protect your boundaries with WW ... you WON'T break off frienships with OM's brothers ... you haven't DONE ANYTHING to keep this from happening again.

Look, recovering from an A is hard, and most M's won't survive long term ... if you're dealing with serial cheaters or long term affairs (LTA), the odds go down even further.

In fact MANY BH's #1 boundary is that they will give R one shot, but if WW has a 2nd A, its straight to Plan FU!!!

... and IMHO ... you should be seriously considering this option for two reasons (1) you are dealing with a serial cheater, and (2) you don't have the strength to stand up for yourself and protect your boundaries, if you even have any.

Bang, right in the face! Yep, you nailed it. Spot on.

I'm procrastinating with exposure to OMGF. I'm procrastinating breaking off friendship with OM's bros.

I'm waiting and I'm not sure what for. Trying to be patient. Trying to be calm. Trying to think through all options. What the heck is stopping me?

Wife actually exposed herself to best friends -- one social and one @ work. They didn't tell me, of course.

Big decisions have historically taken time for me to come to. Call it procrastination, patience, lack of action...

Maybe I'm waiting to get my hands on the books to further verify what I must do. Maybe I need a little more evidence this is the path that will work.

Maybe you are too scared?

Many a BS has lived and died their life believing they could not survive without their cheating spouse.

DNU1,

We ALL have our own specific strengths and weaknesses. Successful people play to their strengths and try to avoid situations that highlight their weaknesses ... but to do either you have to recognize what your strengths and weaknesses actually are ... and it appears you are starting to evaluate those in your own life.

It appears to me that one of your weaknesses is that you're AFRAID of losing your WW ... would you agree?

Now ... what would you consider your STRENGTHS?

What would you do in this situation "if" you weren't afraid?

Keep in mind that FEAR is not necessarily a weakness on its own ... its only a weakness if you are paralyzed by that fear. COURAGE, on the other hand, is taking ACTION in spite of your fears.

Rev: yes, i'm scared of losing my WW. Scared of being alone, scared of throwing away 20+ year relationship, scared if we do go our separate ways i won't find someone. Scared I'm going to do the wrong thing, make the wrong decision about this marriage.

I'm also scared this will happen again -- another affair.

Strengths: helping personality. Giver. will work my tail off for friends, relatives, etc. Communication. Driven. Organized. People person.

Knowing my WW I understand that she needs to educate herself about all of this. If I push too hard she'll dig her heels in and get stubborn. She's progressing ever so slowly.

I understand Harley's boundaries and safeguards to marriage. My counselor even talked about boundaries.

I want my WW to understand boundaries importance. Not forced on by me, but a revelation on her own terms. I feel that would be a much stronger committment than me making demands.

ok, DNU, you are avoiding conflict. Which book are you waiting for? Dr Harley does not discuss exposure in his books. He is changing that:

I think I'm waiting for a couple of reasons:

1. Big decisions require lots of thought on my part. Takes me a while to process, decode, come to decision.
2. I saw how much pain exposure to A#1 caused for me, my WW and our family (everyone knew). I saw the embarassment of wife, the disappointment of family. Took a long time for that pain to heal.

Okay, yet another:
3. I think I'm afraid if I expose A#2 my family will think less of me for wanting to work on this marriage again. I want to hole up in my own little world and figure this out for myself. I want to be sure this is the right thing to do, without the pressure of family. And I don't want people calling me an idoit, a fool. Heck, I don't want to be a fool.

I'm making the resolve to call the OM's GF today! They are many time zones away, so it's going to have to be in a few hours. I've got that time to develop a speech. It's hard.

Need support on this on. It's a baby step, but a good step. Hold my hand and help me through this......

Another point...I'm reluctant to ask but deep down know what the answer is going to be.

If the affair is indeed over, I understand telling the OMGF for her benefit. And I understand cutting off relations with OMs brothers / my friends. I'm okay with that having processed it through my head.

Harley's point regarding exposure is that it helps end the fantasy, helps stop the affair.

If indeed the affair has ended, what good does it do to expose to mine and her family? Yes, would help her own her actions. Help me more with this one.

DNU, this is conflict avoidance, my friend. But I think it is promising you are calling the OMGF today. That is a step in the right direction. Perhaps doing that will embolden you to call the others.

I think you should consider that it is not that your family will think less of you but rather that they love you so much that they know you deserve better.

If you don't expose to those people, you are put in a position of where you have to LIE to them to make excuses why you can't see them. That makes no sense. You and your wife cannot socialize with these people anymore, DNU.

Also, how will your friends know that their brother is a scum if you don't tell them?

DNU, there is absolutely no reason NOT to tell them unless your goal is to protect the affairees from the consequences of their actions. That does not help them!

Melody: I need to clarify a little here.

OM, OMGF, OMs brothers are thousands of miles away. Breaking contact with them not a problem. Exposing to them, yes, I'm going to do that. I promise! I see the rationale and understand that we cannot be friends any longer.


My question is this: I'm torn about exposing to my family, who live in our town. From what I've read on your post / quote from Harley,

"The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy" and hence, help end the affair.

If the affair is over, why the need to expose to family members here in town?

I wouldn't. I don't see any reason why you should.

Is it over?

Whew. I was hoping you would say that, but preparing for the other answer...

Thanks for confirmation.





The call goes to the OMGF in a few hours. Now to formulate a speech.

No contact with OM for over a month. He stopped contactly shortly after the hook up.

Wife feels used, hoodwinked by him. Kicks herself. Referred to him as "that ba$$[censored]" the other day. I still think she has a little withdrawl left, but coming out of it. The fog has lifted for sure.

So yes, I feel it's over.

Contacting the OMGF will help wife establish closure. I'm going to suggest the NC letter from her to him.

Putting the blame on the OM seems pretty convenient for you WW. It certainly keeps you from revealing to other people and also seems to be pushing you away from demanding any changes from her. I guess she really know how to push your buttons.

I also want to say that you do not know that these are the only two times she has cheated on you. You have put no measures in place to track her activities. You only know that you had a feeling and caught her two times. That means she has cheated at least two times.

Understand that my WW has told me how horrible she feels about the A. She hurt me and knows it. She takes responsibility for her actions.

Yes, I do not know if these were only two infidelities. I do have access to her e-mail (she doesn't know) and I'm tracking her every keystroke on our computers. And checking her phone without her knowledge.

I understand your uneasyness. I'm uneasy also. Working towards transparancy and boundaries.

It's been exactly 3 hours since you posted this ... don't lose focus on what needs to be done ... besides YOU promised YOURSELF!!!

Just made the call! OMGF has been told! She's furious. Calling me back in minutes when she can get by herself.

Thanks for the support!

Good for you ... just so you're prepared ... right now, she is likely confronting OM and HE WILL LIE TO HER AND SHE WILL WANT TO BELIEVE HIM ... be prepared for it and have your reponse prepared so she can see the TRUTH. Also, you will likely be painted as the "crazy jealous husband" by the OM to his GF ... again, just be prepared for that.

Just remember, her world just got rocked and she will NOT be thinking clearly. Make your points clear, concise and to the point.

Also ... TWO BIG THUMBS UP ... feels good to take back some measure of control over your life doesn't it???

That's what COURAGE looks/feels like ... you faced your fears and took the correct ACTION in spite of them.

Well Done!!!

Thanks Rev. Appreciate the heads up on his future lies.

I'm preparing myself for the phone call from him. Not that it will ever come, but I'm getting ready to unleash a 50 gallon barrel of whoop-butt on his sorry behind.

I'm nervous, but feel liberated. This was the right thing to do. Now just the waiting until WW returns home so I can tell her I contacted OMGF.

Hold off on that right now ... give it a day or two ... see if your WW brings it up ... if she does, then you KNOW NC has been broken.

Right now you are in "trust but verify" mode ... let's see if she is worthy of any trust at this moment.

Remember, OM stopped communicating with her over month ago.

Is there difference if OM calls WW vs. WW calling OM? She hasn't sent him a NC letter/e-mail, he just stopped calling.

I remember that he quit calling a month ago, but I bet he takes "this" opportunity to call her up.

Let's hear from the rest of the group about their thoughts. I can see waiting to see if WW will tell you if there is contact AND I can also see benefit in using this exposure to OMGF to ask WW for a NC letter and let her know what you've done and expect her to tell you if he attempts contact.

Others ... your thoughts???

I like option #2 (tell WW I exposed to OMGF, ask for NC letter). Feels more honest and up-front to me. And puts pressure on her to come up with NC letter.

Perfect chance for her to prove her honesty. Do not tell her, see what she does.

This is only if you really decide to go the R route. Frankly, with a serial cheater I would not recommend that.

Would not recommend what?

Not recommend telling her about contact with OMGF? Or not recommend working towards recovery with my WW?

Don't tell her about contact, test her.

If you 'caught' her twice you should assume that you did not catch her many other times. Do what you will but I advise strapping her up to a polygraph.

Iam: I appreciate your honesty. I really do.

It's hard for me on this forum because I want so badly to work on my marriage that I try to listen to much of what is posted here. Yes, my situation is both different and similar to others. Yes, I'm dealing with TWO affairs, if not more.

Yes, I've instituted keylogger and am snooping more.

At this point in time I am working on my marriage. I've examined myself, my feelings, my wants and needs and I've choosen to work on my marriage. Please support that decision.

Saying you couldn't trust a serial cheater does not help me. WW and I have a very long way to go. I need support.

DNU,

Support doesn't mean agreement. Support means providing you with all of our insight in an effort to help you. If you were an alcoholic who decided he was just going to drink a little and asked for support , then I'm sure you would see why some would not offer encouragement on that path.

I think many here, me included, are saying you have probably been cheated on numerous times and your current actions will probably lead to being cheated on again. That being said, if you want to live in a marriage like that more power to you.

Exactly.

DNU1,

In all honesty ... it really DOES make a difference in the advice given whether we are advising a BH who is dealing with a one time thing or a serial cheater.

Most of us have learned the hard way that we would never put ourselves through this he11 a 2nd time, and for those that choose to tackle that task, the requirements of your WW should be MUCH more strict than before.

All WW's are NOT the same ... some are much worse ... and WW's with multiple A's are near the bottom of that list ... for obvious reasons.

DNU, I have a suggestion. I think you do need to tell her about it if she doesn't tell you. BUT, I would suggest telling the OM's brothers NOW and getting that out of the way. If she is going to be upset about exposure - and she will be - get your money's worth and get it all done at once. That way you deal with only one explosion and not several.

After this is done, you can tell her in the next day or so what you have done.

And BRAVO to you, my friend, for choosing to be COURAGEOUS and do the right thing. You are a KNIGHT and not a SERF, and I am proud to know you!

Iam and Rev: I understand.

I try to keep an open and remain positive. I want to hear the feedback. Lord knows I would be out of my mind crazy without the feedback and advice given here.

I want to look back on this event when I'm old and dying and say I made the right decision, whatever that may be (Plan D or Recovery). I'm working on my marriage. Haven't forgiven WW. Don't trust her. I'm watching closely.

I'm slowly, subtly moving forward.

It's just hard to read the "I would never forgive A#2" comments. It's easy to give advice. It's another thing to be standing in my shoes, living my life.

That's why I want to take my time and give this a chance. For my sake.

Thanks Melody.

Just one thing ... PLEASE lose this mental roadblock. I see this attitude a lot from BH's and it rarely (if ever) serves them well. It causes you to overthink, which leads to inaction and causes you to lose focus.

Others will likely disagree ... but NONE of us KNOWS that our actions are/were correct for many years, if ever. I'm 18 months out, and at times, I'm still not sure if I did the right thing. So don't wait on PERFECTION ... it can't be achieved in a situation as ugly as adultery.

Forget about waiting for the "right decision" ... you just have to do your best with the situation and information available to you at this moment. Don't hold yourself up to an IMPOSSIBLE standard.

DNU,

I hope you were able to read some of my replies to your comments in Kangkoks thread.

Also all other MBers. Please read Kangkoks thread and add your 2 pence (he is in England) as he needs a plan.

Thanks again Rev. I'm very analytical...and can argue both sides to any argument. That is why this is soooo terribly hard for me. I see all sides - Plan D, Recovery, WWs side (still understanding) OM (okay, not really, but maybe), and mine.

Deep inside me I want our marriage to work. Yet I know there are many roadblocks, many obstacles to overcome. WW needs to show me a lot of transperency, built boundaries around our relationship. She's making progress and I have to be patient, not use LBs.

Have to run. Kiddos home from school. Thanks again, D.

Update: got the kids off to bed last night and told the WW about my conversation with OMGF while closely watching her reaction. She was calm, but crossed her arms never taking her eyes off me. She asked how I told her. I explained.

I asked what she feeling. Shrugged...then said she was shocked I called GF. Asked why I called her. I explained that she needed to know and threw in some more "stick" of Plan A (You are to blame for A, so is he. Didn't apologize for calling GF. Need to own your actions, etc.)

She asked if I called to get back at OM in some way. I was honest and said "...a little. But the main reason was OMGF needed to know."

I asked what she was feeling towards OM and she admitted some mixed feelings. Again asked if any contact had been made -- she said no (I can confirm no e-mails (hello keylogger) and from what i've seen on phone, nothing. Yes, she can erase call log, but she has been very open about leaving her phone around house).

We talked about affair / love for OM being like addiction -- feels good at moment, crave the contact, etc. Compared to druggie being clean...then even a small amount of drug takes them right back to addiction. That was good analogy for the medical professional WW.

Talked about how exposing A to GF helps bring closure, how WW can't contact him again. She again agreed to NC and said she would let me know if he contacted her.

And she agreed to share e-mail passwords, phone logs, text logs. She was a little iffy (I still sense some withdrawl) but agreed. Boundaries!

I'm moving over to her company phone plan today, so gaining access to complete phone records. We talked about transperency and opening up our lives to create boundaries around our relationship. She agreed [note, these conversations were long and in depth...I'm paraphrasing here for brevity. This wasn't me saying "need this" and her nodding in agreement]

I watched her very closely the remainder of the night. I could see she was thinking, processing, pondering. I headed right back in to the carrot of Plan A.

I'm really pleased with my approach last night. Subtle yet strong. Influential yet not demanding. I'm pleased with her response to all of this information and conversation.



6:00 AM: Another update. Fire up my phone this morning and get a message from OMGF. She confronts OM and his reply is something along these lines, "Don't know why BH called you. I did bump in to WW while in Vegas. Nothing happened, blah, blah, blah, blah"

I think it was Rev who said be prepared for this kind of response from OM. Obviously OMs been there before. Thanks for continued support.

That's it for now. WW is off early today. She suggested we do some shopping (clothes for me!), lunch and possibly hit the gym.

I've forgotten ... some of these threads run together ... do you have any saved physical evidence admitting the A (i.e. saved emails, text messages, etc., where WW & OM openly discuss the A) that you can forward to OMGF to prove your allegations?

Can you tell from her correspondence whether she believes your story or OM's?

Rev: I do have access to e-mails my WW sent to the OM. Nothing from OM to my WW.

I only listened to GF's voice mail. Not sure if she believes me or him. I'm guessing if I forward an e-mail he will just say it was fabricated.

GF said she was sorry this caused rift in my marriage. And hoped things worked out for me and WW.

I will call OMGF later today (they are 3 hours behind me), and get a better sense of her feelings.

He's covered his tracks pretty well. No incriminating e-mails to WW...only phone records. I'm sensing he will deny, deny, deny until he's blue in the face.

When i told WW last night she predicted he would deny. I believe this will help her get over him and push her through the withdrawl stage.

Your wife should APOLOGIZE to OMGF.

Your wife should make the call to her and explain.

It would help her heal.

What she did to another woman is truly horrible, and she should TRY to make amends.

DNU1,

I like this advice!

Like I said before ... "I" wouldn't attempt to R with a serial cheater ... but its "YOUR" life and you want to try.

Therefore, my advice is that you need to set the recovery bar VERY HIGH for a serial cheater, and having her make a call to OMGF will do two things for you (1) there is NO WAY that OMGF will believe OM AFTER your WW calls her and confesses to the A with OM, and (2) your WW will take a GIANT step towards "owning her shi!t" ... its time for her to take responsibility and face some consequences for her actions ... REMEMBER WW's ACTIONS speak much louder than any WORDS ever could.

Let's see what your WW is actually made of ...

And while she is professing her eternal love and sorrow to you how about she puts some skin in the game?

Ask her to give you custody, CS and the assets should you divorce. Any truly sorry WW should offer that at a minimum!

DNU1,

As (at least) a 2 time adulteress, you MUST realize that her WORDS are worthless ... she has PROVEN that by her ACTIONS ... she has PROVEN that she will LIE and DECEIVE you for HER benefit ... have her PROVE to you with ACTIONS what she is willing to do for YOUR benefit.

iam is right ... this is not normal MB R advice where the BH is dealing with a WW who has made a one time mistake and is now ashamed, embarrassed and remourseful ... this is a situation with a multiple cheater who needs to SHOW you through ACTIONS that she CAN be considered marriage material by learning from past mistakes and actually CHANGE her whole outlook.

In your case, you will need EXTRA:

openess and honesty
transparency
extraordinary precautions
just compensation

... and if you don't see FULL compliance with these basic terms, then its better to walk now, rather than be hurt later after wasting MORE of your life on this broken woman.

I also agree with iam that requiring a POST-NUPTIAL agreement with the terms he suggests would be a good start for her to put ACTIONS to her WORDS.

Be ready for the OM to attempt to contact your wife to find out what she told you!!

InLikeFlynn:

I see from your sig that you have been the BS twice, like me(?)

I'd be interested in hearing more from BSs who have gone through this twice. Granted, all situations are different, but what are your thoughts, fears, hopes, etc.

Thanks, D.

Thought for the day -- hope.

My eyes are about bugging out of my head from all the reading I've been doing lately. Both on this site and SAA book. Loads and loads of informaion bombarding my little brain, forcing me to think, examine, contemplate...then re-think all over again.

One day I'm discouraged, the next I'm encouraged. Sounds like par for the course in a BSs world.

Today there is hope. Not hope from reading anything here or in the book. Not hope from any little thing the WW has done in the past few days (and believe me, I've been watching...CLOSELY!).

Hope springs from my examining the past. My history. Her history. Our history. I look at the things I've done (not meeting ENs, not building boundaries, etc.) and I'm coming to understand just a little why these A's happened. I'm not there yet, and may never be able to fully understand. But there is hope.

I know she's a "serial cheater," and I know Melody, Iam and Rev are telling it to my straight, with no filter because they want me to know. No, they NEED me to know. I appreciate the "right in your face" feedback (even though some days I'm reluctant to accept it right away).

Today I have hope. I'm hopefull because in the past when there has been an issue I felt strongly about, I have been able to subtly, quietly, ever so slowly get her to just see my line of thinking.

Some might call this manipulation...that's a strong word. I'd much prefer "helping her understand." I'm not talking about manipulalating her to "love me" or somehow forcing her to read SAA, or agree to demands (caution, avoid LBs). I'm talking about helping her understand Harley's principles. Helping her see the light.

As a previous poster said, I cannot educate her, nor should I. What I'm talking about here is subtly, carefully and ever so gently moving her towards wanting to learn Harley principles.

That is why, today, I have hope. [check back tomorrow at our regularly scheduled time to see anti-hope...I'm sure it is coming :)]

DNU,

I think the word you are looking for is persuasion.

Hope, what a powerful word and feeling. It is what this site is about. If you have hope you must act, and try. That is a good thing. I often think people don't realize this site is about hope. One needs the unvarnished truth, but hope is what this place is really about.

Why Do I say this? Well, let's examine your situation. You have hope you can make the marriage better. That may or may not turn out to be the case. BUT...if you learn and use the tools here, no matter how this marriage turns out, you have every reason to know and "hope" that your next relationship will in fact be rewarding and satisfying to you.

Don't lose your hop DNU, just understand that sometimes the things you hope for come from differnt places than you expect, be prepared. There is no better way to hone your skills, and learn new perspectives than trying to save what you hope to save, your marriage.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL!

DNU, you are doing great! I see you growing in STATURE right before our eyes by becoming a LEADER in your marriage. Your wife will greatly respect that!

A couple of things I wanted to touch on. In addition to asking her to tell you if the OM calls her, I would work out a plan of action if he does call. For example, she should be prepared to hang up, etc, if he does. Its not enough to plan to just TELL YOU, she needs to plan to AVOID his contact. She should have a plan in place to avoid him.

Have you exposed yet to the OM's brothers? I would implore you to get this done NOW and stop dragging your feet. The sooner you get this over, the sooner you and your wife can move forward. You don't need to be dragging up a new thing in 2-3 weeks when things have settled down. GEt it done now while the getting is good and move on.

And lastly, I would take a good hard look at going to a MB weekend. Dr Harley's program really does work and can result in an affair proof marriage where you are both in love. He knows his stuff and is worth every penny. His staff will walk you all the way through every lesson no matter how long it takes. You will have daily access to Dr Harley over on the weekend forum. It made an amazing difference in my marriage and since you are on affair #2, I would strongly recommend this.

Keep up the good work, DNU!

D,

You wanted to hear from others with serial WWs, well, I'm your huckleberry!" (Tombstone, the movie!!!!).

Anyway I too am in the heat of battle, just returned to MB forum yesterday to start posting and grab me a big slice of "Hope". Your welcome to read my stories, the first, seven years ago and again a month ago I discovered the second A.

I am plan A right now as well (hatin it!!!!!). 6:30pm here, Friday night, W still at work, hopefully not making contact with OM :=(. It tears me up not to know if she is or isnt. So, I'm gonna settle in here for a bit, pour myself into a bottle of rum and try to numb my brain, so I can get up and do it all over again. I have a gig two hours away in San Diego for 12 hours tomorrow, customer is proflowers.com. Do they sell Black Roses???

For anyone who has read my thread, does it sound like me??? Is my resentment fueled attitude showing???

Sorry all, just venting.

Having one of those tortuous moments....

D, just wondering how you dealt with the first A. Did you use MB principles? I did the first A, and it went as planned, perfectly executed (sort of) and ended desirably, but not easy by ANY stretch of the imagination. Since then, something has gone sideways, either ENs not met or not LB deposits, dunno. Getting great feedback from senior members though, "YOU GUYS AND GALS ROCK!!!".

So, we're in this together.

My apologies, but Im in no position to offer advice. But feel free to hit me up anytime, I can always lend an ear and a shoulder.

Hang in there brother!

Sincerely, Gid

Thanks Gid! No need to explain the quote...I'm a fan of that line!

And no, did not know about Harley's principles for affair #1. Looking back I realize I lucked into a Plan A (even the blind squirrel finds an acorn every once and a while) even though I had no clue an OM was even in the picture. Worked my tail off to be a better hubby and it worked.

My problem, our problem was after DDay#1. Lots of communication but also LBs. It was difficult, and a long road. And I think I was too eager to forgive and move on. I wanted to put it in the past and not talk about, not acknowledge it even happened. Mistake. And looking back (hello, hind-sight!) We just laid the foundation for A#2. Yes, it was 13 years of good marriage, but I'm sitting here after DDay#2 none the less.

I am grateful that OM is out of contact for close to two months now. WW and I are pretty much glued together at the hip any time she is not at work. We talk, we laugh, we discuss the A, we enjoy rec activities together, we are re-connecting.

It's slow, I admit that, but I'm seeing progress. She brought up the topic last night and even suggested I touch-base with OMGF to see what was up. And WW even offered to talk to GF and apologize(!) with no prodding from me. Progress.

WW is moving forward and I'm patiently "helping her understand" the things I need.

Mel, thanks for kind words. No plan of action developed yet, and no contact from the OM. PLan of action a great idea, thanks!

I've not contacted the brothers. I'd like more conversation with GF...she may have even talked to them already. OM continues to deny the A. I can envision your reply to this already...I've got a plan & timeline for this...trust me here. With a little "helping her understand" (pursuasion) she will soon be saying "we need to tell the OMs brothers about this!"

MB weekend a great idea. However WW and I headed to mexico for some sun next week. WWs idea back in November. I questioned this vacation idea after DDay and she said she felt it would be a good thing to connect with me.

That is it for now.

Hang in there Gideon! I'm with you brother! Together we shall work hard and do our best to move forward. D.

DNU, instead of waiting on an unrealistic and completely unncecessary delay, can I suggest you email or call them NOW? There is no reason to delay and there is no reason to demand that she do this. If you don't tell the brothers, the OM may tell them himself. And if he tells them, it will be a highly spun version with you starring as the "jealous nutjob."

There is no reason to delay, DNU.

[/quote]




It's slow, I admit that, but I'm seeing progress. She brought up the topic last night and even suggested I touch-base with OMGF to see what was up. And WW even offered to talk to GF and apologize(!) with no prodding from me. Progress.

[/quote]

Why does she want you to touch base with OMGF? What does she mean "to see what was up"? This sounds to me like it could be an effort on her part to find out what OM is up to and if he and OM GF are still a couple.

It is also possible that her willingness to talk to OM GF and "apologize" could be an effort to get information about OM or at least to put herself into OM's thoughts.

I am concerned about these statements primarily because OM dumped her and she expressed sadness at that fact.

I think that in this situation, she should have no contact with OM or OM's GF. You can have contact in order to complete exposure, but I think that your wife should be kept completely out of this exposure loop.

Why the need to tell OM's brothers?

I suggested my WW talk to the OMGF in order to appologize and further close the book on OM (at suggestion of others in this thread).

In addition to WW feeling terrible about our situation, she feels bad that OM lead her to believe GF was just "a friend, nothing else."

OK,
I thought it was her idea to contact OW. It is good that she is showing remorse.

Hope yesterday...dispair today (I called it)

OM texted WW last night while we were driving home from party (she driving, me picking up the text). I read to her.

Basically OM said (I'm paraphrasing here) "he stopped communicated with her because he thought it would come to this. It would be nice if we stopped calling OMGF...she gets picture. Hopes WW and I can work things out."

Confusing.

Wife still not sure why he stopped communication, broke off affair. I'm sensing the way it ended still bothers her. Could see her slipping into withdrawl right before my eyes

We talked a lot on way home and before bed. I could see the effect on her emotionally. I love busted a little (bad DNU), trying to influence her to write an NC letter.

Today I pushed more to talk, but she withdrew and got really quiet. Said she wants to think about things for a little while. I need to dial it back to the strong Plan A and stay away from LBs.

Disappointed and down today. But we are watching FB and spending quality time together. Hope, where art thou?

DNU, he shouldn't be contacting her at all. You can see what happens when he does. Ask her to send him that nc letter. Perhaps she can email it and cc the OW? This is very dangerous with him contacting her. I have no doubt this contact has triggered her and given her HOPE for the affair.

adding paragraph about nc along with nc letter template:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html


My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Also, you might respond to the scumbag and tell him that you are intercepting his messages and he can stop.

D,

Boy were you lucky in intercepting that text, I havent even seen my W cell phone in a month, she hides it like a national secret. She would be furios if I even held her phone, claiming invasion of privacy.

If you didnt intercept it, do you think she would have let you know about it? I cant say, I dont know her, but my W would keep it to herself.

Not much to report on my battle, I worked at a customer site two hours driving distance to San Diego, from saturday morning to sunday morning, over 24 hours without sleep. Sleep doesnt come easy now anyway, along with food and a clear mind. We did speak saturday before I left, and we had incredible sex last night, but she just rolls over and sleeps, when I would like some afterglow closeness. Im not pushing anything right now. Her mom and my daughter were with her, so I believe NC.

I dont know about you and your/W daily schedule, but with mine commuting and working long hours, its always at the forefront of my mind as to if any contact with OM was going on, Its a killer.

I'm sure the way it ended (if it ended) bothers her. My W first affair, she wanted revenge for being used by OM. I used that as my queue to plan A, shes emotional and pissed at OM, I'm plan Aing my [censored] off. She responded well. But, I knew for sure the A was over then, now Im not.

I believe your right with strong plan A. Right now thats my tact as well, along with continued snooping to do my best to guarantee there is NC, there is no 100% here, but I have to do what I gotta do.

My W gives me that same "Think about things for a while" routine. I dont react to it, just try to keep my finger on the pulse of the situation.

Hang in there D, hope you have a great day man!

Gideon

Thanks Melody. My sense it we were very close to a NC letter and WW giving me complete access to her e-mail, phone, texts, etc. It was just a matter of time...I kept trying to avoid LBs and move her closer to transparency...but this contact by OM pushed her backwards a little. That really bummed me out.

She did give me the password to her blackberry last night, so that was a step. I continue to monitor her e-mail (got her password via keylogger).

I noticed myself doing the "disrespectful judgements" LB the morning after OM texted her. I spent some time alone, re-evaluated, re-focused and got back to strong Plan A. Sunday was better. Lots of time together, laying on my lap watching football, back-rubs, cooking her dinner, dishes, getting kiddos ready for bed, the works.

Gideon: I'd like to say she would have told me about the text. WW is growing to dislike the OM more and more -- me with a strong Plan A and the OM denying affair to his GF are helping drive her away from him and towards me

WW meets with counselor today. It's her first meeting...hard to get in.

Guess I'm lucky in that my WW spends 99% of her time at home when not at work. She doesn't go out on the town. She does head to gym with female neighbor (who knows about the A and our efforts to work on marriage). Aside from gym and occasional drink with the female friend, my WW is pretty much a home-body. Makes Plan A-ing convienent.

Work is where the A started -- via text and phone conversations. Remember, OM is three time zones away from us! I'm grateful for that! I'm on her wireless plan now and trying to strategize a way to get phone records (it her company account...). My biggest fear is her at work. So I text and call her at various times of the day.

That's it for now. Oh, one more thing -- I forwarded OMs texts to my phone...so long he had to send in two messages. Unfortunately only the second/last half came through. It reads as follows (little paraphrasing at first part):

...As for GF, it would be nice if you could keep "her out of all of this. I think she's got the picture.....as for me All I can say is I'm sorry an I really hope you can work it all out."

Neither wife nor I can decied if OMs full of crapola or really means this.

Hang in there G! Keep in touch. And give me a link to your thread...I'll search also.

Gideon

Did you expose to OMW?

Copy the text in an e-mail to OMW and indicate to her that you'd prefer that the OM no longer make contact with you our your WW and if there's anything further that she needs to know, please feel free to contact you. Once the OM knows that ANYTHING he sends you will be sent back to his OMW, AND you're perfectly willing to share as much as you can with her, he'll be a LOT less likely to send any more messages.

But get your DVR ready - he might try to call next time to execute more "damage control", thinking you won't be able to copy that to her.

Update: Wife met with her IC last night. She called me immediately after leaving her (female IC) office while waiting for her vehicle to warm up. We talked until she hit the driveway, then talked more.

I'm always apprehensive when WW goes to counselor. Just wonder what the IC is telling her...hogwash or good stuff.

WW said conversation was good. They started slowly with some background, gradually got in to the A and then IC started asking questions about WW's upbringing.

WW has always had a difficult relationship with her mother. MIL is controlling, manipulative, passive aggressive and generally a netagive person. IC thinks my WW still harbors bad feelings towards her. IC suggested when the MIL gest on the pitty-potty that my WW do what I and my FIL do...just let it roll off back.

After reading Harley's book and listening to people her I'm skeptical about all this "tell me about your childhood" hoey. But the wife seemed generally interested, so I put on my patience hat and listened.

Other stuff. WW talked about how she was getting to point of the A being comletely over and done with. Then the text from the OM on Sat night and how this causes WW to take two steps backwards. IC likened it to addiction and someone passing a drunk another drink (good analogy...). I'm glad the IC is telling WW similar to what I've been telling her on the issue of the text, withdrawl from OM, the feelings, etc. So I'm pleased that part of the conversation went well.

IC gave WW two books (okay, actually sold them to her).

1. After the Affair by Janis Abrahms Spring
2. Private Lies by Frank Pittman

I'm going to read these. Anyone have any insight as to how these stack up with Harley's principles?

More on session: IC told WW she was pleased at how open she was, how in tune WW was with her feelings (basically blowing smoke up her skirt, trying to keep her talking and opening up) WW really seemed to like this stroking. It's strange, because WW always talks about how quiet she is, how she doesn't like to talk. Either she felt really comfy with this IC, or the IC is a master at reading and manipulting WW into talking more.

WW talked about how I sometimes push for progress, push for movement on issues and generally get anxious. IC recommended WW take her time, ask me to be patient and not push too hard. It was good for me to hear that from another source besides myself -- because sometimes I don't listen to myself.

Sometimes it's hard for me to talk with WW. She's generally reserved and quiet and I've got some counseling in my background/training. At times I find myself digging for more information or carefully trying to manipulate the direction of the conversation. ** must listen more **

I've got IC session Wednesday morning. We head to Mexico on Saturday for six days in the sun. More updates later. Thanks for listening (even if no one is really listening...it's just good to type this stuff and let it out :))

8:47 PM.

Need a boost, need a pick me up. WW home early today so we did lunch. Good time, good conversation. She headed to gym then we had bball practices to take kiddos to (her to one, me to another).

I'm feeling mighty low tonight. Can't put my finger on it. Just a sense of hopelessness.

D,

Good job man! It at least sounds like the train is on the tracks, all you need to do is build up a good head of steam.

I'm unsure if I am making any progress. W just called me on her way home from work, freakin out about job, kids, home and probably OM, crying. I think she may have had some sort of contact, but not a pleasant one. I just let her vent. I could go on, but I just wanted to check on your progress, the last thing I want to do is bring my cloud in. I'm glad for your progress, happy for you.

Dude, I could use a mexican vaca, I'm very envious of you. I hope you two just kick back, enjoy each other and reconnect. Really, dont think about anything else, just focus on you two and treat her like a queen. Get some pictures of you two, in the sand and surf, at dinner, having drinks, wahtever. You can look back at them and remember the special time together.

I expect to hear all the juicy details when you get back :=)

Cheers,

G

Thanks G! Your words help a lot!

I see the WWs mood gradually improving. She's doing those little things that I haven't seen in a while -- subtle pinch of my behind, the inside jokes we shared, little giggles here and there. Asking if I'm okay. Little things...

I know it's progress but there are days (like yesterday) when my mind plays tricks on me. I get an image in my head of her and the OM together (ICK!). I think "what if she freaks out and just up and leaves." What if she's doing this and secretly behind my back calling divorce lawyer. Aarrggghhh. Just shut the damn brain off already!

I need to keep being patient, keep Plan A-ing my behind off and stick to my guns. I need to make this the most inviting, warm and safe home I can. She inadvertently meets a few of my ENs, because they are top ENs of hers (being close and touchy-feely, conversation). But there are days when I feel like my tank is empty. I'm hanging in there.

Here's a quote for you. Been a good one for me to keep in my head (guess who):

"I gotta keep breathing. Because tomorrow the sun will rise. Who knows what the tide could bring?"

G, I'll post on your thread...Thanks again, D.

Since wife gave me her blackberry password, I took it upon myself to forward the OMs text to my e-mail.

Little background on the exposure to OMGF.

Called OMGF in morning (her time zone) and just flat out told her. OM told my WW that his GF was just a "friend" nothing more. OM told GF he was going to vegas to hang with buddies.

When i told GF that the OM went to Vegas to be with my WW she was pissed. PIssed at OM and sorry he did this to me and my WW (I said takes two to tango...)

GF called me back on cell 10 minutes later to talk more. GF called me next day and left message saying OMs reply was that he did go to vegas with friends, and just happened to run into my WW (liar!). My WW asked if she could talk to GF and apologise.

I called GF again and left message saying WW wanted to talk and apologise if she could bear talking to her. Never got reply back from GF.

Then a few days later my WW gets text from the OM. We are driving home from party, wife driving. I see message come across and ask if I can look. I'm shocked / amazed he even texted. Read to WW and can see her slipping backwards emotionally. Here is text:

"Sorry that it came to this but that's why I stop talking to you then. It never should have went this far. As for Janice it would be nice if you two left her out of all of this. I think she's got the picture.....as for me All I can say is I'm sorry an I really hope you can work it all out."

Wife visibly shaken. We talk and talk a lot more. WW still wants to know why he ended it. Two steps back in her recovering from withdrawl. But she's again making progress.

Interesting phrase for me is the "it would be nice if you two left her out of all of this..." My read: I have a large stick in my hand and am waiving it over his head He knows this and is afraid.

Need to get kiddos off to school It's -20 here today. COLD! take care, D.

DNU,

The two books your W got from the counselor are very good. In fact, in the past they have also been recommended here to complement Harley's books. You might find them interesting reading as well.

God Bless,

JL

Thats a killer!!! So if he didn't want to end it where would you be???

Thanks for info about the books JL! I've started reading the first and it's pretty good so far.

In-Flynn: Well, from what WW tells me about their hook up in Vegas, by Day #3 of 6 days together the OMGF was calling and texting so much that my WW came to realize that they were just more than "friends" (OM and OMGF). Could sense their affair coming to an end.

WW confronted me on things I wasn't doing in the marriage Nov 6th, just week after the Vegas hook up. Her and OM were still communicating, but he was beginning to pull back.

I took the confrontation (nov 6th) to heart and really banged hard on the things I needed to improve in marriage. Had no clue about the A, but had a gut feeling something wasn't right. In essence I started Plan A at this time, before DDay.

By Dec the OM had stopped calling/texting my WW. First week of Dec my wife recomended Mexico trip for us to "spend some time together." DDay was 12-26-08. Crap hit fan that afternoon when she got back home from work.

Looking at this with hindsight I realize I got really lucky. Lucky the OM stopped calling. Lucky I didn't find out sooner and have to suffer through ending the affair. Lucky I found out and can now take steps to work on marriage.

Yes, WW wanting to know why it ended put a freeze on her withdrawl. Luckily her IC said something to the effect "WW, no matter what OM tells you about why the A ended, it probably will never satisfy your curiousity. You probably just have to end it on your terms to come to closure..." (I'm paraphrasing here...)

Update: The week in Mexican sun was wonderful. Normally she wants to sit by pool and worship the sun and I'm one wanting to go on excursions, play in ocean, and just do things. So this trip I committed to just being a pool / sun junkie and meeting her every need.

Got her drinks, food, made sure she was comfy, drug myself out of bed in morning to mark our spots by the pool. You name it, I was all over it. She said numerous times how much she appreciated all I was doing for her.

And I made it a point to just concentrate on us, and not talk to much about the affair. I'm guessing the subject came up two or three times -- it's hard to watch TV, even Mexican TV without some reference to infidelity

We were inseperable for the entire week! And intimate too

So now back state side we have started our exercise and nutrition program. Working out together daily and cooking meals together. It's been good.



I'm debating the following topic and need some expert advice here. I am well aware that the best way to end an ongoing affair is to expose, expose, expose, to everyone. Since my WWs A was over on DDay, there was no need to expose to her family, friends, co-workers, etc.

Here's the question: Do I make my WW aware that if she engages in yet another A, my first response will be to expose to EVERYONE -- her family, my family, our friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc.?

Would telling her about exposure now be a LB? A threat? A demand?

Or would the thought of exposure help her identify a potentially dangerous relationship in the early stages, come clean with me and take steps to fix the situation?

Your thoughts?

You never threaten to use exposure.

You never warn that you are going to expose.

You need to expose because your WW needs to have to face the consquences of having an affair.

Expose WW's parents and her siblings. Expose OMW/GF. If they are co workers then expose at work.

By not exposing you will teach your WW that she can have another affair because there will be no cost to her.

Exposing help to ensure that there will be NC.

I understand your comments but I think you are not seeing my context. Yes, never threaten to expose while WW is in an affair. Never warn when WW is in an affair.

What I'm talking about is this -- now that my WW's affair has ended and OMGF exposed, and we are headed towards recovery -- do I mention to her that IF something like this happens again, she can expect full and complete exposure.

See the difference?

"What I'm talking about is this -- now that my WW's affair has ended and OMGF exposed, and we are headed towards recovery -- do I mention to her that IF something like this happens again, she can expect full and complete exposure."

No, never warn, even now.

Full exposure?

Did affair happen at work?

Did you expose to WW's siblings?

Are there kids and were they exposed?

Everyone, does not mean the same thing.

Did your wife ever agree to have you send the no contact letter?

Thanks Road. That hits nail on the head.

Lake: I believe she was very close to a NC letter. Then the OM texted her and it threw her back a few steps

Remember, I was there and read the text to her...it was basically a "this never should have happened, hope you can work things out...please stop calling my GF..." type of thing from the OM (actual text elsewhere in this thread).

I immediately pressed her to send the NC letter and could tell she was conflicted. So I left it alone for a while.

About a week later, just before our trip to Mexixo my WW said she was thinking of texting OM back. I was a little shocked, but happy she told me. I asked why and she basically still wanted to know why it ended between them, why he stopped calling.

Feeling that was not the best approach for our recover, I subtly convinced her to leave it alone until we returned back from vacation.

I can hear the replies now -- demand a NC letter, NOW. Making demands on my WW typically do not go well. While she is indecisive on issues, if there is an issue she is wavering on or contemplating, and I come across with a strong demand one way or another, she's been known to dig her heels in.

On the positive note, if I'm subtle, patient and take my time working on her, I can with great certainty move her towards my side of the argument. Baby steps.

Tell her it was because he was finished using her. Once he was forced to choose her or his girlfriend he was able to drop her with no second thoughts. That's how much she meant to him.

Oh yes, already did that. Remember, I hunted with this guy three times. When you are out in teh wilderness, alone, no TV, no phone, just standing there for hours...you tend to talk.

And this guy talked a lot. He's a "player." Talked openly to me and others in the group about how easy it was to woo women. How he'd never be married again. How he was just keeping his GF around for his fun (sex), never intending to marry her.

When the EA started he kept telling my WW that his GF was just a friend, no sex involved. When WW and OM hooked up in Vegas the GF was calling and texting the OM regularly. My WW figured out quickly that she was more than a "friend."

WW tells me it was day 3 of their Vegas trip where she realized that the relationship with OM was going no where...but she still held on.

After returning from Vegas his calls and texts dimished. Then OM took his GF to Hawaii. AFter that the OM stopped all contact with my WW (thanksgiving).

When I asked her about the relationship she said she felt used, duped, stupid, like a sucker...then went in to how sorry she was she hurt me, our family, jeapordized our realationship, family etc.

When I told her what I knew about his being a self proclaimed "player" she really felt used. Even more than before. I tried not to do the "i told you so" thing, but she got the point.

Update:

WW on call this weekend, so has to stay in apt close to the hospital (about 20 minutes from our home). We text and call constantly...which is good. Conversation an EN for her. She takes book her IC recommended and got some good reading in this weekend.

Note: I didn't want to kwow the nitty-gritty details of the Vegas hook up @ DDay. Lately my crazy mind has been creating all sorts of images...and I told WW a week ago that I'm going to have to ask those questions (very subtly...wanting to see how she reacted). She said something like "part of me just wants to forget and move forward." Hmmm. I say nothing more and let that seed grow.

Today a week later, after reading her book more she guides our conversation towards the affair -- one of the few times shes brough up the subject. And says it was wrong of her to want to "forget and move forward." Reading helped her realize that she needs to answer those questions...and I need to ask them. More honest and open.

Progress

And a little pick-me up from last night. Went to surprise party for neighbor by myself since wife working. Few of the ladies commented on my shirt -- "nice shirt, looks good on you." WW and I exercising and doing nutrition plan. I'm feeling good, looking good. And today I say to the WW, neighbor gals liked my clothes Wife says, "you do look good in them. I need to compliment you more" (yep, appreciation is an EN for me).

I continue to strive to meet the ENs and be the best husband / father that I can be. Her two friends who have full knowledge of the A keep telling her "he's an amazing man..."

Baby steps...progress...movement forward. Hopefully the rollercoaster doesn't take a nose-dive on Monday. Crossing fingers, saying a little prayer...Thanks for the support.

Haven't updated in a while. So here is what's new.

Wife took her female buddy to doc to see about knee...torn ACL. Wife and buddy went out for two beers...I think I told this story on another thread. Anyway, wife basically tore my clothes off later that night for some good SF. I haven't seen passion like that from her in a year. Good.

Feb 8th WW met with counselor and talked about talking about the A. IC said WW needs to talk about the A and get it all out in open. That's only way to move past this.

Wife admitted to me she comes home from work half expecting to see her stuff on the lawn, locks changed. She's still scared.

WW told IC I'm doing tons around house, meeting her needs, trying my best to be great husband & dad. IC said good. And IC glad to see I acknowledge doing things that were LBs.

IC Also said my WW needs to be more direct in asking me to do things. Before she joked about doing things...hard for me to realize what was real, what was joke.

I've started getting up and making her breakfast in mornings, getting her coffee ready, packing lunch and getting her out the door. Feels good. She's saying ILY's without my saying them first, and saying things like "I need to be a better wife." Hello, heck yes...

We have had three date-nights, once per week last three weeks. Good to sit and talk and spend time away from kiddos.

We work out daily and following nutrition plan -- eating good foods, etc. It's been fun and good for our health.

She's still a bit reluctant to completely open up. I'm still being subtle and very patient. DDay was just Dec 26th, so just 8 weeks out. We spend 97% of our time together when she's not at work. And text probably 20+ times a day while she's at work.

WW has one more IC, then we are doing MC with her counselor.

DNU,

You are EN master, it seems. I will watch your thread with much interest.

Let us know how V-Day goes....

Melody: You deleted your post(?) Why?

Anyway, bump in the road tonight. Good VDay up until about an hour ago. Spent majority of day together meeting her ENs, being the good dad, etc.

We are watching a movie when all heck breaks loos up stairs with the kiddos. I head up and take care of the situation. One kiddo comes back to Mom and cries on her shoulder and WW gives me the "you were too hard on her" look. I'm holding strong. Follow through on my promise to send kiddo to bed and as I'm donig this my WW comes up stairs.

I say, "is something wrong?"
Her, "no"
Me, "are we going to finish the movie"
her, "no I'm ready for bed"

Well the long and shor of it was she didn't feel I was being fair to the kiddo. Backed me, but pretty much ended out night together and kicked in to "crabby-patty" mode.

I get kiddos to bed and walk to bedroom to talk with her. She gives me the not-going-to-look-at-you treatment. When I try to talk to her she's short, cuts me off, doesn't want to listen. I'm getting angry but remember no love busters.

I let her say her part, then try again to make my case. I'm cut off again, but finally get my point across. It's clear she's done with me for tonight and I say, "well, you just want me to leave you along..." She says yes.

I head down stairs and am fuming. I write a little in my journal and get even more angry. this is crap! Shes pushing my buttons, causing me to live in fear of her angriness, mainpulatin me with her anger.

I've had it! Three months of Plan A, doing everything I can to meet her ENs and this is crossing the line. I calmly walk into the bedroom and say I'm furious. I'm furious you would treat me like this. I'm tired of living in fear of your anger. I try to explain my reasons and you cut me off and don't listen. I'm shaking I'm so angry, but I hold it together and say my part...then leave back downstars to cool off.

I didn't raise my voice, didn't mention the affair, didn't say much more than that, but I said my piece...and it felt good. I'm still angry. And I've had it. I 've been patient and I've waited, and waited.

This just royaly pissed me off to no end. She's done this little digging her heels in, not looking at me, cutting me off mid sentence, passive aggressive crap all our marriage. Granted, 99% of the time she's wonderful, loving, caring, but this is a major love buster for me! And I'm sick of it!!!!!!

Tomorrow will be an interseting day (don't care about spelling right now...sorry)

She will either be completely sorry and apologize a million tmies, or she will kick it into passive aggressive mode version 2.0

I seriously need to calm down and find my zen (or whatever the heck they call it...). Maybe this is the angry outburst I should have had DDay. Don't know. All I can do is type right now. My fingers are flying and I'm still shaking I'm soooooo mad. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!

Well, that didn't take long. I've been up most of the night thinking about me, her, our M, this damned A, etc.

And you know what...I'm not afraid any more! She's got nothing on me any more. I was afraid the withdrawal (just for you Mike :)) was still in her, and if I made demands or love bust she would just check out or even move out. Well, if she does then I'm fine with that.

I've worked my tail off to meet her ENs (house support, kidds support, conversation, affection -- just for you Melody). I've gotten rid of love busters that I knew were bugging her. And although i've seen progress, it's been slow. And i've been feeling like I'm doing all the giving and my taker is getting very little...slim to nothing.

So Im sitting down here stewing, thinking the heck with her, I deserve better. I'm a great dad, good man and would make any woman a wonderful catch. That fear caused inaction in me. That fear paralyzed me. Not any more...

So around 4:00 AM I head back to bed...and just in time as she's coming to see where I am. She's teary eyed and hugs me, but I don't hug back. I'm still grumpy.

So we talk.

She says she's scared I'm going to leave. I say yep, thought crossed my mind. She says sorry for the grumpyness last night and we hash through that one more.

And then we get to the good stuff. I tell her I feel like I'm giving, giving, giving and I'm afraid that my giver will run out...and my love for her will run dry. I point out all the changes I've made, all of her ENs i'm trying to meet daily, that I want to forgive her, that I want our marriage to work.

More tears. More sorrys. Then she does something she hasn't up to this point...she asks what she can do to help ME. What can she do to make our marriage better. Ahhhhaaaaaa...turning point. She had never asked me about my ENs up until then. Yes, we filled out the ENQ, and I sneaked peak at her sheet...but I was waiting for her to say "hey, lets look at these..."

I tell her I'm frustrated she just wants to "put the A in the past and move on." I tell her about Joseph's letter. I talk to her about honesty and openness. And I'm doing a good job of not love-busting or being demanding. I'm saying the "i feel..." and the "it bothers me when..." instead of the "you did this..." etc.

For three plus months the ball has been in her court. I've been Plan A-ing and working my tail off to improve myself. But today...today the ball bounced back in to MY court!

Don't worry, I will be a good steward of the ball. I will continue to deposit ENs, avoid LBs, take care of my kiddos, myself and my WW.

Sorry Melody...realize now that you posted on the recovery thread...not here. My bad.

Oh good! I read that and wondered if I was losing my mind! Any chance y'all could get to a Marriage Builders weekend and go through the whole program? What is does is teach you to fall in love again, the greatest way to affair proof a marriage. Its worth every penny. It might be something you want to consider since this is her second affair.

WW very apologetic today. I've heard a lot of "I'm sorry"-s. And "how can i help?"

Good.

Maybe I need to channel Mike more

Simultaneous post...Jinx!

would love a MB weekend. Her schedule as a doc makes things tough. I'll plant that seed.

Here are the next ones:

March 20th & 21st
Embassy Suites Minneapolis - Airport
Minneapolis, Minnesota
More information...
REGISTRATION OPEN


May 15th & 16th
Embassy Suites Minneapolis - Airport
Minneapolis, Minnesota
More information...
REGISTRATION OPEN

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi011_dates.html

Thanks Mel. We've got plans for the March date, but May might be a good fit for our schedule.

She's finishing her book and she read the EN portion of the SAA book.

It was really a weight off my shoulders last night. Felt like I was holding back and trying too hard to be patient. I'm glad she made me angry...brought out some emotions and feelings and caused us to talk more. A few steps back in order to move forward.

The two of you need to come to agreement on discipline.

This child used her mother to defy your boundaries and limits - and mother played right into it!

Children don't want to see their parents fight, really. But they will push as far as they can to get their own way, and that includes playing one parent against the other. It's why children feel so guilty when their parents fight and shortly after split up.

The fact that you were contemplating leaving would have been devastating for this child. And your wife needs to know she got played to some very destructive ends. From now on, the two of you need to agree to back each other up and NEVER in front of a child, take the child's side. If you disagree with the way in which something is handled, you still support the parent in front of the child.

I agree completely. And so does wife. Probably best to clarify more. When child was crying in WWs arms, my WW mouthed the words to me 'being to hard on her.' Even though she didn't agree with my initial decision, she did back me in the end.

And kiddos do play mom vs. dad. WE've seen that before and generally do a pretty good job defeating that tactic.

Wife disagreed with me outside of kiddo earshot. Not sure if I made that clear in first post.

So this weekend is up and down. Fight and blow up was down. And it's been a long week since any SF (high on my EN), so I'm thinking it's go time.

Got her flowers last week and a good VDay present, cards. She, on the other hand, got me nothing. But I'm thinking, okay, some good SF and my major EN met...

Well, nothing. Didn't feel like it. Tired, whatever you want to say, blah, blah.

So this morning I bring up the issue in non-confrontive, non-love buster way and she says "I need to be a better wife."

Granted, she's on anti-depresants, and I know they are messing with her libido.

But thinking more I think about what ACTIONS she does to show that she loves me. What does she DO that shows me...besides saying, ILY.

[Uh, oh...I sense the "taker" waking up here...]

Our relationship is a lot about me giving and her accepting, or taking. I'll just call it what it is. She loves being taken care of. And I love taking care of her.

When I look at my ENQ originally I pushed SF down on the list because, well, something in my head said SF shouldn't be that high. Too many years working at university -- female bosses / co workers banging in my head how relationships should be more about emotional connection, not physical.

Bag that. I'm a man and SF *is* high on my ENs.

But this frustration just got me thinking about what my WW really does to show me she loves me? She talks a good game with ILYs, cuddling, snuggling, etc. But what does she do for me?

In all seriousness, she could give me SF three times a week, be open and honest with me and throw some admiration my way and I'd be good to go.

Give me some feedback here people...am I crazy?

DNU,

Sorry to hear about the episode with your kid and WW. I think V-Day is a pretty emotionally charged day/weekend for us BS's. I personally am glad it's come and gone. I would have rather received SF than the card and chocoalte I was presented with but that's just me.

My WW has just started true withdrawal so I'm not seeing snuggling, cuddling or any of that for the most part. At least your WW is providing that for you; you should appreciate that and see that as rebuilding steps. Maybe she still needs a little more time for you guys to get into the groove with SF? My WW is on anti-depressants also and tells me she does not even want to think about SF right now - food for thought.

I think we both have long road and we'll both have to be patient. I'm optimistic about my own situation reading yours as you guys are a few months ahead of us, relatively speaking. It seems to be a bumpy road to travel....

Hang in there!

THanks for the words Kman. It's frustrating to be sure. Yes, making progress, but geeesee...throw me a little. Anything.

It's a rollercoaster right now because I'm sure if I did get some SF I'd be on top of the world. She's coming downstairs now...more later. D

Someone needs to slap me in the head and say "patience, you dumb a___"

I'm just grumpy today. Maybe I'm reading too many Mike posts...naw, that's not it. Mike funny man.

It's just hard when I'm busting my balls to meet her ENs, show her I love her and want to recover our marriage, doing all the little things that I know she likes, avoiding LBs...

And what do I get in return? A Love buster valentines day gift from my wife, a few minor ENs met (affection, admiration), but the big ENs still lingering out there. Openness and honesty are still hard to come by. I've been preping her for the "i want all the details" conversation. Hasn't happened yet. No SF in a week. My boys are blue.

People talk about an A being an act of selfishness. I guess today I'm just looking back on our relationship with the "selfish" glasses on. Seems like a lot of me giving and a lot of her taking...

Okay, enough of this pitty-party. Someone, please, kick me in the head!

Keep your eyes on the prize!

Thanks again K!

I'm just feeling empty today. Like I've been pouring out all this effort in to the marriage, my wife, rebuilding our lives. And today I'm just feeling empty.

need a pick-me-up and it's hard to get that. The only people that know about the A are two of WW's good friends and the wonderful people on this board. No one else.

There was no need to expose since the A was over on DDay (12/26/2008). So my *venting* comes here.

I really need to be patient, I know that. WW knows I'm frustrated and running low on patience. Hard.

I think you're expecting waaaay too much from a WW. You should accept that SF is a long ways off and simply understand that it's going to be a while.

Same with getting affection from her.

She was in the middle of an affair recently. She wanted to leave you and end the marriage.

Expecting SF is a bit much.

Some waywards in recovery get crazy with SF and use it to cover the pain for the betrayed.

I had a horrible experience where the WW wanted SF simply because she wanted it and warned me to not get any hope from it.

Honestly, your cravings for SF are a little weird IMHO. Chill right now.

Expecting a WW to give a rats a$$ at all about your EN's is unrealistic.

I should probably give you a little more history...I think you are making a few assumptions about SF and our relationship.

We were pretty solid twice a week sex couple, even through the affair. Being the High SF / EN that i am, I pay pretty close attention to how many times we are intimate in a week. When WW returned from the hook-up (PA), we had SF two nights after she got home...then a dry spell, probably 13-14 days, which is long in our world.

Then as the A dwindled we picked up the sex more. After DDay it was probably a week before we were intimate. But since then it's been pretty regular twice a week. When on vacation in Mexico it was every day

And throughout all this the cuddling in bed has always been there. Affection like that is high on her ENs also. Kissing was pretty dormant for past 6-8 months, but even that has gotten much more frequent and passionate in past month.

I think what frustrates me most isn't the lack of SF...it's the lack of WW trying to meet my ENs. Yes, she's "talking the talk" about showing more open and honest, SF & admiration. But it's been slow going.

And really the only times we talk about emotional needs, the affair, our relationship is when *I* bring up the subjects. She still doesn't initiate as I would like.

Yes, you are right in that we are only 8 weeks post DDay. She is amost 3 months past NC with minor blip Jan 10th (text from OM).

And I'm know I'm having a hard time today. Thanks for the feedback.