I would leave the book, Surviving an affair lying around. Go check out the Q&A articles because there are lots of good letters in there from wayward wives. Hopefully when you say you are being subtle, you mean you are just leaving them lying around and not pushing them on her? That would be a lovebuster to push this on her.

And something else I will just warn you about so you don't get discouraged. She is in withdrawal right now so you will not be able to meet many needs. You are doing better than most, though. Just don't be discouraged if you don't get much response.

edited to add: I posted before i read JustLearning's excellent post! He said it better than me.

More good conversations with the WW this morning. A few topics for discussion:

1. We spend a lot of time together and we don't talk about our marriage or the A much. I enjoy being around her (need to fill out my ENQ). She brought up an interesting topic, that is the topic of talking about the A. Her words were something like, "I kind of feel if we don't talk about it, well, it's just going to go away...but I know we have to talk about the affair."

I feel similar -- want to talk about the A and our marriage, but don't want to over-do it. So the question for today is where is the middle ground?

2. SF. Have not filled out the ENQ, but I'm pretty sure SF is high on my ENs. I'm not totally comfy with thought of having sex with the wife, but the urge was getting to me. So I brought up the topic this morning. WWs not completely comfy either, and expressed that to me (communication, that's a good thing!).

We have lots of issues with regard to intimacy and sex life. Both are afraid to express ourselves fully, I realize that. I asked if she wanted to talk more and she just isn't ready (note to self, avoid LBs...be calm...supportive...)

The question then becomes how do I get SF? Wouldn't bother me to fly solo, but how do I word that to her? It's going to be an awkward conversation for both of us.

She's walked in when I've been looking at on-line stuff...okay, I'll call it what it really is - porn. She's never walked in when I've been "flying-solo." We've talked a little about it, but that remains one of those underlying, non-spoken subjects. Probably why I'm having trouble bringing up the SF need to her. (heck, it's even hard typing this here!).

Feedback in this touchy area greatly appreciated.

First off, I would lose the porn. You wouldn't believe how much damage we see on this forum from porn. It is bad for marriages, no matter how you look at it.

It would be GREAT for you to have sex, because women feel more bonded to men after they have sex. I wouldn't be talking about it so much as just doing it. Try to be spontaneous and just seduce her. Once you do it ONCE, you should feel closer.

Why are you avoiding this discussion? If she wants to talk about it, talk about it. If you want to talk about it, talk about it. The only thing you have to avoid is lovebusters.

DNU,

Well there are many strategies about discussing the affair. The ones I like were posted and done many many years ago here.

The first one is to agree to discuss it say once or twice a week, but limit the time to say an hour or so. No one solves all of the problems of the universe in an hour or so, except perhaps myself , but the idea is go slowly but steadily.

The second strategy I like is for you to write down the questions you have. Do so a few days ahead of a conversation, then write down why you need to know this and how the information will help you. Let it sit for a few days and then see if you REALLY need the information. If you do, then it becomes a question to discuss.

Now here is the part that is kind of interesting. Give the list of questions to your W along with the why you need to know. Let her have this a few days ahead of the discussion, and let her pick the ones she wants to answer and discuss.

The third stategy I like is really the policy of joint agreement POJA. Talk with her about these ideas, see if she has any suggestions that would make them more effective for you her. She may want to produce a list of questions of her own, who knows, but the same rules apply.

Eventually, all of your questions will need to be answered, and I am sure as the discussions continue new questions will come up.

Nevertheless, involving her in deciding to use these approaches and the using these approaches seems to me a good way to not only use the policies Harley recommends (radical honesty, joint agreement) but it starts you two learning how to negotiate.

Finally, and this is farther off. If you two discover issues in your marriage that really you don't see eye to eye on, switch roles and you become her and she you, and then see if you can find a solution. Ultimately, what you both need to come to understand that you both need to end up happy in this marriage and that means you really are on the same side.

This leads to my last point. The discussions of the A should in the best of worlds not be adversarial. Ask her "to help you understand what happened, what she is thinking, how she would like to see things resolved", etc. Invite her to help you, and offer to help her. The key is for both of you to keep your defenses down.

Must go, I hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

You are absolutely right on the porn thing. "flying solo" was mainly a result of me not wanting to bother her with my urges, or her being tired and me feeling guilty about asking for SF so much.

I think the porn aspect entered when got faster internet, and too much free time. Again, you are spot on here.

And as far as being spontaneous and seducing her...I'm not one to kiss and tell, so I'll just leave it as

You are a very bad boy!

way to go!

JL: Wise words here once again. Thank you!

Appreciate the slow but steady approach. I like. The thing is we've talked so much in the past week that I've pretty much got most all of my questions answered. Yes, more come up there and there. In fact one popped into my head last night and WW seemed open and honest in her reply.

I don't want to know the details of the physical hook up in Vegas. Asked those questions after A#1 and it was hard to hear her doing things with OM that didn't/wouldn't do with me. Hard images to get out of my mind.

I guess what concerns me is that she doesn't have many questions for me, if any. WW has always been quiet with regards to deep personal stuff. I often have to keep digging to get her to open up (warning, warning...issue to continue working on in this marriage!)

She mentioned the feeling that if she doesn't talk about or think about A it will just go away (again, warning), but she followed up immediately with statment "but I know we need to discuss this and work on our marriage."

I continue to bust my behind to meet ENs and she seems to be responding. I'm seeing little things I haven't seen in a while -- the way she touches me, looks at me, is near me. It's little things, but progress none the less.

I need to remember to support her, not pressure her, stay away from LBs, remain calm and cool (that's hard some days).

Thanks. SF need met!

The whole intimacy thing is going to be probably one of the most difficult issues for us to discuss. She grew up Catholic and is a bit reserved. I think there is a lot of passion deep down inside her, but getting her to talk about it is going to be one of my greatest challenges!

I need to be patient right now and allow her to work through withdrawl of OM. And to continue to bond with me.

As much as I'd like to FForward through these tough times, I realize and embrace the journey.

I just wanted to agree with Melody about porn, its the only thing my husband has done in our marriage that makes me want to run far far away and never let him touch me again.

I see that you already agreed but I couldn't not say something as it destroyed my self esteem and desire to be close to him when I found out he'd been "flying solo" looking at another girl's naked body.

I have been reading your thread and would like to add a few things from my experience

Many years ago my H had an A, all these years later things never quit got worked out, we lived under the same roof but had different lives, I never felt safe, I knew he had more secrets, we could never really be intimate, he always had to lie and cover up things that he did not want me to know,and there were times he slipped up and I would sometimes question H, and H would lie, things started to build, I now was asking for truths, he still lied, I got a moving truck and moved out, I was out 4 days and he came clean, with more A's, and an EA.
The point of my story is; your W might have ONLY done what you know, but if there are secrets there can never really be the true intimacy in feelings and thought that you want out of a M, she has to be completely truthful with everything she has done against the M.
My H also lied to the MC for 6 months, so that was money completely down the drain. H said he didn't want to hurt me with more but the reality is he was protecting himself.
You NEED to know it all, trust me on that one

Doingfine: Yes, I agree that I need to know all. I periodically ask her if there have been more A's, other men besides what I know (EA, PA, etc.). She continues to look me dead in the eye and tell me no.

What I mean by "not wanting to know all" is that I don't want to know things like sexual positions. I know about the OM, what she found attractive, what she found sexy, conversations they had, how the actual hook up came about (she says it was mainly her pushing for the vegas meeting...hard to hear, but it was the truth), etc.

Those are hard things to hear, but I have to deal with them and move foward.

I've keylogged her e-mail and facebook passwords and have been keeping an eye on her. And she's leaving her blackberry around the house unlocked. I'm growing more at ease with picking it up and looking at it when she's around (and I'm snooping when she's not around

Update: WW has always been touchy-feely. Looking back I've noticed me not meeting that EN for a while -- wanting to "get things done around here" mentality. Not spending enough time just hanging out, snuggling w/ her. So in past week I've tried to be more in tune to her EN. Feeling more intimate with her.

Anyway, she's long banged on me for the tighty-white underwear. Wanted to see me in boxers or boxer briefs. When I was getting her some x-mas gifts back in mid Dec I picked up some boxer briefs, but didn't get them out until Xmas (knew she would put 2+2 and figure where I was shopping). So long story short I throw on the new undies yesterday and she gives me the "i like those" look. Haven't seen that in a while...makes me feel GREAT.

This morning I throw on another pair and she stopps putting on make up, walks over and grabs my behind and makes a comment I can't really post here Holy crap! That was cool!

Sorry, had to share. Still don't trust her and will continue to work on ENs, stopping LBs, snooping, etc. But that made my day!

That's it for now. I'm off to earn some tokens into heaven -- mother-in-law has new computer and needs help setting it up. Note: setting up e-mail is exponentially easier when you know the passwords. Strike that, when you know that e-mail even NEEDS a password.

Need a little advice on dealing with the OM. As stated before he's a hunting buddy of mine. Hunted together for a week in 2001, again in 2002, then took a long outback type camping trip in 2005. Spent week in his town this summer, 2008...wife met him there, families spent lots of time together, WW made a connection and eventually started calling him after returning from trip, blah, blah, Vegas hook up, you know the story.

Here's the rub. I'm friends with the OM (okay, WAS friends), and met him through his brother...a much better friend of mine. And I've grown to like the third brother. Confusing, so here's explanation:

F#1: worked with him for year, hunted several times, good man. Known him since 1997. Introduced me to his two brothers...
OM: older brother to F#1, met him on hunting trip, spent time hunting with him on three occasions, even a week long outback camping trip. F#1 asks my family to come with them on vacation this summer to OMs town.
F#3: middle brother of the three, met him through F#1. A bit quirky, but good fellow none the less. Lives in same town as OM.

So today I get a call from OM & F#3's area code. OM doesn't know that I know about the A. I'm thinking answer the phone? Or not? Give him piece of my mind, or just ignore him (no I haven't contacted OM's GF yet, so no reason for OM to call me).

Well, turns out it's F#3 (whew!). We talk, no mention of OM at all (good).

The rub is this. I'm pretty sure F#1 and F#3 are going to invite me on trip some time in future. I'm not at all comfortable spending time or even seeing OM. Thought about handling in this way, give me some feedback.

F#1: "Hey D, we are thinking of doing a trip. Me F#3 and OM, want to go?"

Me: "Well, if OMs going I respectfully decline."

F#1: "WTF?"

Me: "Me and OM had a falling out. I'm just going to leave it at that. If you want more information you are going to have to talk to your brother(OM)"

[Note, WW has not had contact with the OM in over a month now...by his choice. I believe she's still in withdrawl, but getting better daily]

And part of me wants to call OM just to say, "hey, thought you were my friend...very disappointed this happened, please don't ever contact me, my WW or family again..."

Thoughts? Suggestions?

DN --

I don't see that you have contacted OM's GF yet.

I really encourage you to do so.

20+ years ago I was dating (then engaged) to a man who was cheating on me. No one told me. There were so very many people who could have.

I married this man. I had children with this man. And no one ever told me that I was making these decisions without all of the information. I deserved to KNOW all the facts about this man.

I cannot tell you how angry I felt when I learned about his betrayal. I didn't just feel betrayed by HIM, but by everyone who didn't speak, didn't tell me what the real truth was.

Just one person could have saved me. But no one did.

DNU1,

You need to understand that I'm also a serious hunter ... hobby breeder and trainer of english setter grouse dogs. I also have lots of male friends/acquaintances through this sport ... many of which I've taken extended hunting trips with. Why I'm telling you this is because I fully UNDERSTAND the dynamic of "hunting buddies".

You should also note that I'm a fellow BH.

With that background and the experience that I've gleened from it ... here is what I would have said to F#3:

"I'm sorry F#3, I've always liked you and your brother F#1. However, due to your other brother OM having an adulterous affair with my WW, I'm afraid that none of us will EVER be friends again. My WW and I are trying to recover our M from the damage done from her and OM's A, and any contact with any of you would only set back that effort. I trust you understand that I didn't cause this to be this way and I will miss our friendship. Goodbye."

It is best to just make clean cuts where possible. This will also serve up the side benefit of exposing OM to his family as you can bet that F#3 will be on the phone to F#1 immediately after you tell him, and it will filter back to OM and OMGF.

Just so you'll know, we also had to cut 2 of my W's friends out of our circle of acquaintances ... one because she was toxic and encouraged my W's A, and the other simply because she represented a trigger for me, just like your previous hunting buddies would be for you.

Also, we told both of these friends EXACTLY why we were cutting them out of our lives, not that mamby pamby reply about you and OM having a falling out like you are contemplating.

This A stuff is UGLY business and needs to be discussed in a straight forward manner, including the consequences that come from such ugliness.


I don't understand such a wimpy confrontation with someone who betrayed your friendship. I can gaurantee you that if one of my hunting buddies/acquaintances had pulled this stunt, my reponse would have been MUCH MORE PERSONAL than a phone exchange about my "disappointment".

EXACTLY what does it take to pi$$ you off???

My suggestion would be to put away the crackpipe and stop enabling the OM. How about:

Me: Your brother, OM, has had an affair with my wife and it because of that that I must decline all hunting trips. I am sorry this happened, but what your brother has done is so painful to me and my family that I cant come anymore.

Why would you cover up for the OM, DNU? You are doing NO ONE any favors by hiding what a scumbag he is. Further, these brothers need to know what a slime he is so they can protect their own marriages from him.

Evil thrives when good men stand silent, DNU. Don't be an enabler, my friend. STAND TALL and do the right thing.

DNU,

I agree with MyRev and Mel. Let's put it this way, an affair is one thing, wondering around with guns in this mess is an entirely different thing. One of the reasons 'hunting buddies' are often close is there is an element of TRUST involved given that all have weapons and accidents could happen if care and respect are not present.

I would definitely agree with Lexxxy as well. OM's girl friend needs to know the truth. What she does with it is her call, but you need to let her know the truth.

Sadly, OM has cost you some friends and still may cost you your marriage. Your WW is not a FWW yet. She is working on it.

Please take this opportunity to be with OM was not and your W was not...HONEST.

God Bless,

JL

Damn, I thought you all were going to come with that. And once again you are correct.

I guess my feelings on this were to put the lid on exposure for now and see just where WW was with regard to OM...lurking, snooping, watching. And sticking to Plan A, the NC agreement and moving forward with our marriage.

I felt that if OM was really done with her and she over him, why expose to anyone but the OMs GF?

WW really likes F#1 (& his wife) and F#3. I was hoping to maintain that contact / friendship and be able to cut OM out of the picture.

Clearly you are stating that will be a difficult option. Blood is thicker than friendship.

And yes, the OMs GF is going to be told. First I need to build up the courage...then develop a speech. Then find her darn phone #.

Yes she will be informed.

DNU, the affair needs to be exposed everywhere. Expose to these brothers, their parents, the OM GF. Get it all out there so it is likely to die and stay killed. I would not be hanging out with this family any more lest you risk them running into each other again. Exposure is like chemotherapy to cancer. The more exposed, the more deadly the exposure. They should ALL KNOW.