Dagger,

AGain, I will remind you that you will learn much more if you do very little talking and a great deal of listening. Women cannot stand silence, and if you are quiet, she will start talking. You listen and you listen very carefully. Ask a question if something said doesn't sound right and then go back to quiet.

One of the largest love busters and certainly the most deadly to a marriage is the disrespectful judgement, DJ for short. It is an assumption about what the other person did/thought/said without data to support it. What makes it deadly is people make an assumption and then take actions.
"I didn't think he loved me so I went out with ****" YOu get the picture.

You will make many fewer DJ's if you listen a lot, and talk less. I know I know the advice is for us guys to speak up, spill our guts, show out emotions, etc. The reality is that women don't like us to show our emotions, unless they are harmless such as crying at a sad movie. Anger, fear, frustration are all emotions and they don't want to see them.

IF she asks you something you answer her honestly. But for the most point you need to hear her point of view. You need to evaluate this point of view. Because if it does not change, the the advice MIM, MyRev and others have is dead on...get out.

You need to see growth, you need to see her accepting responsibility, you need to see her finally care what you think and feel, you need her to see the emotional effort it will take for you to rear another mans child. You need her to ask, and inquire, you don't just jam it down her throat.

If her perspectives on marriage and her boundaries don't change and a clear clue will be seen in the following example
That BUT/HOWEVER just negated everything she said before. It negates everything you said before it. "Yes But..." is a disagreement. If you hear these things, she has not changed.

I told you before what you will need to see from her, and that is a plan to protect you, your children, and your marriage, a plan with action items, ways to check things, ways to detect problems and improve them, ways to effectively communicate, and ways to evaluate how everything is going.

Pops, Tigger, and Kimmy are really good resources for your choices.

You say you love your W. I wonder if you do. You see love is action, it things you do, it is things you say, it is care given. It is NOT A FEELING. If you just FEEL like you are in love, then you are in infactuation, not in love. I would say from what you have said there has been precious little love in your marriage,although I am sure there has been desire, and feelings from time to time. Marrying someone you have "feelings" for is a huge mistake. You marry someone you are willing to love as in the verb to love.

Take your time, gather legal advice, and listen, listen, listen, and then occasionally speak. Be honest, but avoid the dreaded DJ.

God Bless,

JL

Alright. That I will do when she comes over and can talk face to face on Sunday. I guess I get pretty upset about alot of things between W and OM because she has been so dishonest about everything, and when it comes to light, its everything that I did assume and I get mad because she doesn't see the same picture as I do, and that is probably selfishness on my part. She also has said me getting worked up like that, in return makes her get worked up and then results in her not wanting to talk to me. That tells me that she isn't willing to understand my side of it and only wants to understand her own, I may or may not be wrong, that's a question to some of you. I know I need to relax, but how can I when I know what has happend in the last month?

I think I have to relax and listen, but i dont know how because of the dishonesty in the last month. On Sunday though, when we're face to face I will let her speak for the most part, which is actually the best thing because I don't understand her actions or her thinkings.

Another question is this...

I asked her to check this place out and She has said on Sunday she will be coming onto this forum. Should I have her read this whole topic and reply to it on this topic, or should she start her own? Either way, I want her to read this topic, but I also think she should send her true feeling out in her own way on here like I have done.

The usual advice given is that spouses should start and stick to their own threads.

However, I wouldn't be so quick to invite her here. Depending on your choice of action, she could use what you write here against you.

BTW, from the comments you made in your previous post, I'm more convinced than ever that you'll be making a huge mistake trying to stay M'd to her. It's plainly obvious that she's only really interested in herself, her feelings and her needs, and that's likely not going to change.

JL has it exactly right. Just listen to what she says Sunday. You will find out a lot.

I would not have her come here Sunday. Wait for that. And when she does come, she needs to have her own thread.

I dont think there is anything I've said here that she could hold against me that I havnt already told her.

Egh! I'm just so worked up in every way about this and i DO need to relax, it's just tough.

And yes, I will listen to what she has to say on Sunday, rather than tell her everything I already have 100x more

""""Alright. That I will do when she comes over and can talk face to face on Sunday. I guess I get pretty upset about alot of things between W and OM because she has been so dishonest about everything, and when it comes to light, its everything that I did assume and I get mad because she doesn't see the same picture as I do, and that is probably selfishness on my part. She also has said me getting worked up like that, in return makes her get worked up and then results in her not wanting to talk to me. That tells me that she isn't willing to understand my side of it and only wants to understand her own, I may or may not be wrong, that's a question to some of you. I know I need to relax, but how can I when I know what has happend in the last month?

I think I have to relax and listen, but i dont know how because of the dishonesty in the last month. On Sunday though, when we're face to face I will let her speak for the most part, which is actually the best thing because I don't understand her actions or her thinkings. """""""""""""""''


PLEASE reread what you wrote here. This is exactly the problem with youth. she tells ou something, you get angry, say something out of haste and she replies the same way and the arguement is on. nothing ever gets accomplished.

dude,, you said multiple times in this post and in others that you BOTH HAVE stepped out of the marriage. you BOTH have created this mess and you thinking you can now lay down th elaw and fix it will never work.

now you want to point the finger at her like she is thismajor sinner. reread your own words on this. what kind of marriage have you both practiced for the last 4 years? what boundaries have either of you set for each other?

you both cheat on each other many times and now that "you" feel "you" have turned the corner "you" are upset that she is still living the same life that you (the 2 of you) have established throughout your entire marriage.

and the big deal (not that it isn't) here is that she is pg. all the past cheating from each of you is supposed to be put aside because she is pg.

dagger listen to this very carefully. YOUR MARRIAGE HAS SOME SERIOOUS PROBLEMS AND THE PREG IS NOT THE BIGGEST OF THEM.

you need to listen to what her thoughts on tis and listen close. and keep your mouth zipped unless you need some clarity on an occasional point

also stop trying to tell her what a piece of trash the om is. all that will do is push her closer to him. she doesn't care about your opinion of him anyway. she has to see the real him and you can't show it to her.

You are right, I guess I cannot magicly fix it knowing our past. I do realize that me talkin about OM drives her away more, but I just feel like she isnt seeing it, and she isn't, and if I dont show her she won't find out in time and our marriage will be over by the time she does realize that. I feel that in every aspect of this situation, that I need to show her whats real and what fake. It's probably wrong because no matter what I say, she will have her own decision about it. I will stop talking about OM and focus more on our marriage, which is more important than OM. I guess that is probably one of my main problems is talking to her about OM.

I guess as of right now, I don't see this ending good. Choices she's making, things that are happening. Yes, she isn't to fully blame as we have a past full of disgrace.

And yes I am young, thats why I am turning to you older "folks" for advice

"OLDER FOLKS?????"" I resemble that remark. I'll have you know Pops is at least a decade younger than I.

Dagger you said
You just confirmed what Pops said. Further, step back and reread this. Let me tell you this and in this I AM SURE I AM RIGHT. You don't want to be married to a woman that YOU have show how to live. No woman wants to be married to a man she has to show how to live. That is exactly the point of you listening. Until her perspective changes, there is no reason to remain married.

You are right she may not see it in time, that does happen. But you cannot "SHOW" her anything. You can simply be the best man and father you can be. YOu "show" her by your actions that you are growing into the man a woman wants and needs. You show her by your actions your love.

Let me tell you something that is obvious to all of us. You are not unique, when we were your age we thought pretty much like you do. This will change. But, consider this, when you two married and you said your vows who did you promise to love/honor/cherish/ and be faithful too?? Your thought it was your W right? Well you are wrong. You made the promise to yourself. You promised yourself you would protect her, love her, be faithful to her. After all only you could make sure you kept your promise.

Now listen to this carefully. YOu promised to love her in sickness and in health, etc. Do you know the love you promised??? It was not that you promised to "feel in love with her" through all of this. It was that you would always act loving toward her. No one can promise what their feelings will be a week from now, a year, a decade, many decades. But we can promise to take actions and that is why the love you promised is/was an action.

Until she takes responsibilities for her promises, her failings, how she sees things, you have no hope of having a good marriage. That is why we are telling you to listen and not talk. This is not a debate, this is a process and the purpose of this site and marriage building is to offer a processs that allows people to see hope, and see the merits in changing their perspectives. However, YOU cannot change your W, you cannot argue her into being who she doesn't want to be, you cannot out "logic" a wayward spouse. She has to do those things to herself.

All you can be is the best you can be, and that means learning, listening, and changing your own perspective on things.

Dagger, I cannot tell you whether or not your marriage will survive, I cannot tell you if it should survive. I do know you will be happier, your children will be happier, if you give things a chance and you do the work on yourself that this site recommends. You cannot be your W's conscience, you just cannot do that. So the need to talk is really minimal. What you say to her about her actions, about OM, don't matter. You can only speak with authority about yourself. And until she asks, anything you will say will fall on deaf ears.

God Bless,

JL

A lot of words have been written on this thread. Things are being made way to complicated.

If you want to recover your marriage that's good.

If you don't want to recover your marriage that's good.

If you can raise the OC as your own that's good.

If you can't raise the OC then WW will have to give up the OC or you will have to divorce.

If you want and must have total NC with the OM and WW does not you need to divorce.

If the OM won't give up custody, and or the WW won't keep him out of the OC's life, and you must have NC for the WW, OC, and you. You will have to divorce WW.

If you chose to ignore any deal breakers they will come only to bite you in the butt for the rest of your marriage.

you may be right on the age JL but i bet your golf score is a good decade or "more under mine.

Dagger again i will use your words. """"""""""I do realize that me talkin about OM drives her away more, but I just feel like she isnt seeing it, and she isn't, and if I dont show her she won't find out in time and our marriage will be over by the time she does realize that""""""""'''

so what are your choices here? you drive her away with your mouth or she takes herself away with her choices.

either way she is gone.

NOW IT DOESN"T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY. let me give you an exampple from my own disfunctional past

when my w had her A it was partially due to the way "I" was in our marriage. NO her choice of infidelity was NOT my fault. what was my fault was that "I" did not protect my marriage by doing all i could to meet my w's EN (emotional needs).

this gave my w (as with most waywards) the excuse/need to seek those EN's elsewhere. whether consciously or not.

then once i had realized the slippery slope she was walking on just prior to her A turning physical, i started telling her of the om's weakness's. whining to her like a lost puppy of why, how could you throw "all this" ( , all what) away, blah blah blah.

i was showing her that i was weak and that is not the man she had fallen in love with. i was actually driving her away by trying to tie her closer to me.

so i started backing off. stopped talking to her about om. when she would tell me things that he did to upset her her i just shrugged my shoulders with indifference.

i stopped begging her to stay. letting her know that she had to make her own choices as to our future.

i started doing fun things with our kids. she was always invited but never expected to join us. i started going to events with our friends, playing cards, beach, sporting events, bar-b-q's, etc.

again although it hurt i showed her indifference when she didn't come along.

once she realized that she was free to go she also realized that i had turned back into the man she originally fell in love with.

now this didn't happen over night or in a week. it took some time. i would say in our case about 6 weeks or so for her to "start" understanding that i was allowing "her" to make her own choice as to which life she wanted to live and where. with me or without me.

hope this helps you understand where i think we are trying to lead you.

and hey it took me a long time to get this age, don't expect me to change overnight.

theroad my good man. you are completely right.

what i and others (i think) are trying to help dagger with is give him some tools so he can try and recover his marriage.

from what he says he wants to attempt to save it. he is very confused and needs to learn some very basic facts, techniques, battle formations if you will, to give it a go.

otherwise it is sure to fail.

sure if any of the scenerios you laid out come about and his marriage fails then it fails.

but if he feels he wants to save it, and doesn't make an effort and it fails he may regret that the rest of his life.

I am weak. From everything thst was said from your posts after my last one, just proved that. I'm doing all the WRONG things. I'm trying to show her what to do, I'm talking about things that dont really matter to her.

JL - Your words put alot of real thoughts in me about what marriage really is.

Pops- That is similiar to my story, and I need to change my @$$ around and do what you did... do things for me and my kids, and hopefully in time she will see, I just dont in time that she see's, it wont be too late.

Man, I've been going about all of this very wrong with her from the start, and I think if I were to have done them right from the beginning we would have already made progress.

Thank You all...

Dagger,

Just a little reminder and heads up. Do you see my user name. I picked it because when I came here in my 50's I realized I had a lot to learn, and to this day I am "just learning" many things.

The fact that you didn't see or know these things is not a surprise. Most people don't. It is a matter of acquiring knowledge. You are in that mode, keep learning, and you will never regret it. No matter how things with your W turn out, you will be a better father, a better man, a better friend, and a better husband for what you are learning. Odd that it takes something a traumatic as an affair and pregnancy for this to happen, but here again you have lots and lots of company.

Your job is to grow and learn and you do that best by listening and asking well focussed questions. It is true here, it is true in your marriage, it is true in your job, and it is even true when you are helping other people.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

JL- This site and you people have given alot of knowledge that I never thought of, and just like you, I'll learn and hopefully good comes out of it. I do think I'll be a better father, and person in general once I can get the full outlook of things, but thats why I came here. Yes, I do have alot to learn, as does she. I just hope everything can be restored.

Not against any one trying to recover. Just him to realize that if there are things that are truly non negotiable. Then he needs to hold his ground on those things he can not swallow.

There has to be a give and take. Though trade offs can not be done without concern as to their costs. Short term and long term.

I want for him to want what ever he want's.

Though that he takes the time to think things through. For his mental state is not the best for him to make long term decisions.

I would let the OM take it from here. Let HIM take care of your wife and thier unborn child.

She is not to be trusted again. Ever. Unless you want to continue in a lifetime of heartache.

Wait Wait... Isn't that what this place is alot about? Over coming marriage hardships, issues, etc..? Sure, people can only change themselves, but with the right knowledge anyone can switch it up on any given time or day. I'm not saying in this particular situation, because honestly I don't know her TRUE intentions or the real reasoning behind this mess yet.

There's just so many things to be talked about and I'm trying to learn on here how to control situations. She'll say something and I'll bring a valid point across and she gets histerical and turns it into a fight! It seems like any truthful point I bring up she don't want to discuss nor hear about it. Yes, I've learned I can't force anything on her otherwise it'll drive her away even more, but whats a guy suppose to do you know?

I know I need to let things go so she'll realize things on her own, but my main issue is time and our kids. People say I have time, but do I really? How long should I let this go on and leave it be, or should I just come to realization that she does want out of the marriage and there's nothing I can do? Yes, all of that is something I need to find truth with in myself, its just a struggle no matter which way I look at it.

Like I've been saying, today is the day we're going to sit down and talk tonight, but at this point I just don't see anything REAL coming from her to work with or to even have an idea on.

i know that it is hard for you to envision life without your w in it.

keep learning from tis site and you will indeed become a better person, father and mate. whether it is to your present w or someone else.

i also know it is hard but you still need to refocus your main attention on YOURSELF.

stop worrying about things working out with your w. it detracts from the most important subject in this whole situation. you being a stable and healthy father to your kids. they need to see you as a strong loving father.

if your w decides she wants out then it is better for you anyway.

you deserve a loving caring w.

you are young and have plenty of life ahead of you

keep your head up, look to a positive future for YOU and your kids.

Remember what JL said - do a lot of listening. There is no need to make any decisions tonight. Don't LB her or get into any arguments. Let her do the talking, and then report back here what she says.