The first thing I said to WW that seemed to break through was "You have not only ruined my life now, but wasted it with 20 years of loveless marriage..."

Sorry,that probably smarts...

It does, but the truth is the truth. Even so, you are an inspiration. If I can do my work, we have a chance. That helps me a lot right now.

You seem to be working very hard and I have high hopes for the marriage. Hang in there.

I am, believer, and I have hopes. One of the things that some members of this forum do not really know is that, despite the tremendous damage, SSS and I have some kind of special "chemistry" that we both recognize. Neither one of us wants to live without the other. Even if we failed, and the marriage ended, we both recognize that we would probably always call each other and be friends. That would constitute an EA, and would prevent us from ever really finding someone else. That makes it absolutely imperative that I succeed in healing her and learning what to do. There really is no other option.

There is another option...

SSS could decide to divorce you and go no contact with you. She would go through withdrawal from you and eventually be able to have a committed relationship with someone else.

"High hopes" for your marriage is a bit much at this point, considering the history of your marriage.

Keep your focus on healing HER regardless of the state of the marriage, and give her the right to exit this marriage if she so chooses.

This will be a VERY LONG process, and she really has no idea how she's going to feel in the months/years ahead.

I wrote "hopes", not "high hopes". Regardless, I know it will be a long, long process. Also, she doesn't need me to "give her the right" to exit this marriage. She is in the drivers' seat, and her rights don't come from me. But your point is well taken.

SMB has this spot on. Pay good attention to what she said. Let's not get bogged down in semantics!

Yep. I understand. Thanks, bigkahuna.

I have a question and need some advice:

Right now, of course, there is still nothing but this gigantic open wound in our marriage, and SSS is in mental anguish at many times, and I am trying and am dedicated to learning how and what to do to heal this. It is 100% MY job. I understand that completely. Though it could take forever, we have been advised that this healing phase will most likely take "around" two years. Here is the question:

SSS wants me to still be able to go on occasional hikes on trails with my dogs. I have done this for years, usually about 5 times per week. SSS wants me to still be able to do this, though , not as often, because she knows how important it is for my health and for the dogs. But, she worries, of course. I have the GPS tracker on my car and on my cell phone, so that she can see where I am in real time and later on, have been. Her "giver" does not want me to sacrifice this important part of my life, but her "taker" is nervous, and "enthusiastic agreement" with my going hiking cannot be achieved. She wants me to, but is not really totally comfortable. My "giver" wants to stop these hikes, because I need to heal her and make her feel safe, and I don't want her to be the least bit uncomfortable. My "taker" obviously wants to still go on one or two of these hikes per week, which take a couple of hours. It is important to my long term health, because I have a bad aortic valve in my heart, which will require replacement some time in the next few years, and it is important that I stay in good physical shape.

What should we do about this? Is it too early to be applying the principle of "joint agreement" requiring ENTHUSIASTIC agreement by both, because of the anxiety it causes SSS? Or should I be willing to accept her "giver" and go on these hikes that are important to my health and our dogs, and allow the GPS tracker to keep her more comfortable about it? Any advice is welcome, regardless of the opinion.

Before you give an opinion, it is extremely important that you know that I went with the OW on some of these hikes in the past, and that is the BIG source of her worry and discomfort about allowing me off to go hiking.

Get a treadmill.

Since you went hiking with the OW, and your dogs, I would say that you cannot do it anymore, unless your wife goes with you.

Otherwise it is very hurtful to her.

I agree, you can't go alone...that is out of the question.

Can she go with you? If 5 miles is too long for her, can you shorten it with the long-term goal of getting back up to 5 miles WITH her?

Is there another form of exercise that the two of you could do TOGETHER? That would provide some nice time to meet your needs for conversation, UA, RC...it could count towards your 15+ hours you are to be spending together/week.

You just need to think outside of the box for this...there IS a solution that can be successfully POJA'ed.

To give you an example, we have done this as well...FWH used to run marathons, he met OW on a running message board. For obvious reasons, running marathons is now out of the question...it was also an IB that helped to tear our M down in the first place.

We POJA'ed this and now we exercise together...but not running, we lift weights. It's been a great source of RC for us; it gives us a common interest; it sparks converstation. We just needed to think outside of the box and this is SO great for us.

Keep brainstorming...you will come up with something!

Thanks, all, for the replies. I see the wisdom of this. Even though she wants me to be able to do this, if it makes her uncomfortable I simply cannot do this anymore. Looks like I ruined things for my dogs, too. I can get the excercize I need on my Air-Dyne stationary bike, and when the weather is warm, my dogs can retrieve dummies from the pond and walk around the property. SSS is willing to hike with me and the dogs on occasion, probably more like a three miler, maybe once per week. I just cannot do anything that makes her uncomfortable anymore. Simple as that.

Right, you cannot. I hope you are not feeling or showing any resentment or frustration over this, either...you did this to yourself and it's going to be a big fat LBer if you show and resentment or frustration.

I think taking 3 mile walks/once a week together is a GREAT start...who knows, maybe she will really love it and you two can add miles and how many times/week you do it and get back up to your 5-milers. But in the meantimes this is a great start!

I need some more help. I know this sounds pretty infantile, but here goes. I don't know what to do, when SSS is on the downside of the roller coaster. I don't know what I can do or say to make her feel loved. Isn't that stupid? She tells me that I'd better figure it out, and that she is feeling like it is still all about ME, and that I am really not working this program. And yet, I feel like I am trying everything I know how. I have done the assignments from Steve Harley, made an appt. for a post-nup, agreed to polygraph, made reservations for the March MB weekend, got the phone GPS set up and use the GPS trackstick. I am seeking help on this forum and being radically honest about everything now. I made continued fatal mistakes during the first few months after discovery. I continued to lie and withhold facts about the affair and numerous other infidelities with paid sex workers during the preceding 18 years. After finally baring it all and coming completely apart, ending up in the mental hospital for a few days, we are basically back in the earliest stages. For some reason, I just couldn't make myself tell the truth about those other things. It was just too sordid and embarrassing and humiliating. I was petrified that she would never respect me again and could never love me after that, so I said nothing about it and flat out lied that there was nothing else to tell. I was terrified that it would be over. The realization that a polygraph would bring that out forced me to finally give it all up. Who knows? Maybe it is too much to expect a person to assimilate that kind of hurt and pain and make a go of it. I know that it will take years before she cqn begin to feel even a little bit comfortable about me. But the fact is that I LOVE THAT WOMAN (don't worry - she has me on IGNORE). I could look a thousand years and not find someone like her. That is just plain true. am desperate for this to work, because of that, not just because of a quest for forgiveness or for guilt, even though both of those things drive me as well. All those years, I had buried my love for her because of her anger at me (that I had caused). Now I am faced with the realization that I may have permanently destroyed that which was what I was always really seeking. Incredible and tragic. At the same time, just banal and stupid.

SSS is an amazing woman, and in the last few weeks, I find myself feeling love that I thought was gone for so many years. I find myself fantasizing about her sexually, and I get positively giddy when she is having a good day. I adore being around her then and doing things together. It is like before we were married. She is going to feel massively hurt and violated and betrayed for the rest of her life, but I just plain don't know what I can do or say on the "bad days". Unless I can learn to handle that in a more satisfactory way, I fear that she will give up on me. Can any of you help me?

wot?


When my WW sees me in "seethe" mode she showers me with attention, hugs, SF if I want it....sometimes gets teary and apologizes, says it was all the biggest mistake, is really committed to the M and helping me heal, etc

That works.

PS: someone on your BW's thread, in case you aren't reading, suggested while you walk along, she go on horseback since you own horses.

Well, since it has been such a short time since she found out all of this, I think she is doing quite well.

You can expect her to feel bad for several YEARS.

I think you are doing what you need to do, and all of that stuff will make her feel safer with you.

And please realize that your son's accident will bring her back feelings of fear.

Maybe you can just hold her and comfort her.

Yes. SSS was almost continually angry with me nearly from the beginning of our marriage because of my attitude of dominance and ego and my deference to my father, who hated her because she was not subservient to me. I didn't understand at the time that I was the one with the problem, the one who caused that anger, or even how totally obnoxious I was in our marriage in the early years. I just assumed that my Dad must be right, and I became just like him. He was insufferable. She was terrified but trapped in the marriage and thought that all my good qualities would cause me to see the light eventually and change. Instead, I reacted to her anger, which I had caused, by withdrawing, eventually completely, and refused to see what was my fault in our initial attempt at marriage counseling in 1984. Our enormous sexual compatibility and activity level was put in the deep freeze, and what followed felt like sexual rejection. In actuality, it was justifiable rejection of my behavior and attitude. Needless to say, I reacted to sexual rejection not by improving myself, but by getting deeply resentful. I caused this entire problem and basically set up the conditions that I used as an excuse for my own infidelity. Pretty sick puppy, I was. But that is what I meant in my previous post. Since October, my basic view of myself, the world, and her has radically changed, and I understand what happened now. I even remember vividly now the long ago hurts and episodes that I had suppressed and not remembered. They seem like yesterday. It is all coming back to me. The recent disintegration of my sense of self after finally puking out all my misdeed and hidden activities was needed but literally put me in the hospital. I have the motivation and intelligence to change and finally be the husband she always thought I had the potential to be, but now there is this gigantic hurt and quarter century of betrayal for her to deal with. Neither of us knows whether MB is powerful enough to save us after this, no matter how hard we work. But if we succeed, imagine the inspiration it might provide to others.

On another matter, she cannot really ride horses on those trails. They are heavily wooded and hilly (we are in Eastern Kansas), and horses are not allowed on those that are close to here. There is one that is also for horses, but it is about 20 miles east of here, and SSS would have to trailer in the horses. Nope. I am going to just have to give up the hiking. SSS feels bad about that, but it will not heal her if I go on these by myself. I feel like I need the green and wild places most days to keep my head comfortable, but I need her more.



Thanks, Mike for the suggestions.

I showed sadness about it last night. I couldn't help myself. I tried to avoid having it look like frustration or anger, but I think she interpreted my sorrow as frustration, and it hurt her. This is all so hard, but I am trying. Thanks, MarriedForever.

What great insight! I hadn't thought that his accident would intensify her feeling of fear about this, but it is so obvious now that you mention it. I expect her to feel bad about my betrayals as long as she lives, as will I, but if several years could help us enough to stay with each other and be reasonably happy, I will be incredibly grateful.

We are so relieved that he wasn't hurt. It was incredibly close to being a fatal accident. Totaling a car is a minor problem compared with what could have happened. Right now she is napping next to me on the sofa. I helped her fall asleep by stroking her hair. So, at least I am doing one thing right. Thanks, Believer.