GM

Please slow down your mind. You're thinking some great deed or action is going to make it all better. That's not how this is going to play out. It's going to take a lot of time.

Healing from what you've done is not an EVENT, it's a PROCESS!

This doesn't mean sit on yourass and quit trying. Quite the opposite! Continue to find ways to comfort sss and do the work that Steve H gives you, along with reading everything you can about the MB program.

It is many actions, by you and sss, over a long period of time that will allow her to heal.

Hang in there!

I'm sorry to sound so harsh and you're probably not going to like me after this post, but....

GET OVER IT. Seriously, GM...do you know how freaking LUCKY and BLESSED you are that SSS is even CONSIDERING attempting recovery with you????

And you are moping over giving up hikes with your dogs?!?!!?

Holy cr*p, man...you don't know what you have and it's staring you in the face!

My FWH has given me grief over having to give up some IBs too, and let me tell you...it's a GREAT way to drain her lovebank.

If that's your goal, then good job! Keep up the moping [because that's what it IS...don't give me this sadness cr*p...you are MOPING like a child!]

Grow up and realize that any changes that happen in your life right now are YOUR FREAKING DOING. Yep, YOU did this to yourself, GM...you have NO ONE ELSE TO BLAME.

I'll try not to say "I told you so" if this keeps and she kicks you out. Honestly, you are driving yourself to ruin with this attitude.

I went through kind of the same thing about 8 years ago with my step-son. He was driving home from school and a guy made a left turn in front of him, while he was going about 50.

The weird thing is that I'd been telling all the kids NOT to waste my insurance by going to the ER for small things. My step-daughter was lazy and used it like a clinic.

So my step-son refused to take the ambulance to the ER and walked home about 2 miles, all beaten up and bloody. He showed up at my door. I rushed him to the ER, and there was NOTHING wrong with him.

It still haunts me to this day. Close calls are very traumatic too.

Try harder.

I know. It was a spontaneous reaction, not calculated. I do very much need to grow up emotionally. It is ridiculous. I get teary at the drop of a hat now. Very emotionally volatile. I do appreciate your response. You are right in every respect.
I will stop this nonsense. Like I said before, I have been a child. A spoiled, petulant child who has never had to face consequences or learn boundaries. Its crunch time. I know it. Thanks, MF.

Thnx. I needed that, too.

"On another matter, she cannot really ride horses on those trails. They are heavily wooded and hilly (we are in Eastern Kansas), and horses are not allowed on those that are close to here. There is one that is also for horses, but it is about 20 miles east of here, and SSS would have to trailer in the horses. Nope. I am going to just have to give up the hiking. SSS feels bad about that, but it will not heal her if I go on these by myself. I feel like I need the green and wild places most days to keep my head comfortable"


i was the one who suggested this.....is she against this or is it too much trouble to YOU to trailer in the horses??

if she is for this find a way. another suggestion is why have to do trails? can you ride the horses on the roads where you are? i do it all the time here. hubby takes dogs and i ride along with one of my horses. if this is important to you find a way. you may have to do things differently, and that may be uncomfortable for you, but it is up to you to try to work this out.

You won't have to "try" so hard if these changes come from your HEART and you make them because you WANT to, not because you feel "forced".

dude......I'm starting to feel your flair for the dramatic again...we don't need to be constantly shown your belly. Just keep your head down and work in the MB program.

Oh, and even DISCUSSING for a SECOND this trail thing is ridiculous, never mind 15 posts or whatever. SSS is uncomfortable for any reason about it? Done.

Get a treadmill. And if it's so important get one of those Jetson dog treadmills for the hounds....

Good suggestions. Too much traffic here, though, and busy railroad track. Also, the trailer is hers, and I don't know anything about horses LOL. Not that big of a deal though. It will work out. Mike is right.

Maybe I could hook it up to a generator and save on electricity.

I had promised to post my list of extraordinary precautions some time ago and realized I had not. Here it is for comment or suggestions It is in outline format, which did not copy and paste with outline indents, but here it is anyway:

Plan for prevention:

1. Suborn self-interest to the interests of the marital relationship. Establish the needs of the spouse and the marriage as the single most important thing in my life. Though this realization has already occurred as a result of this crisis, this will be continually reinforced and patterned by long-term, dedicated study and implementation of the principles and basic concepts in the Marriage Builders course and lesson work, which will establish:
a. Meeting the emotional needs of spouse as my prime consideration.
b. Discussing with my spouse if I feel my emotional needs are not being met.
2. Recognize the clues and warning signs of risk-taking behavior, including:
a. Use of medications or any psychoactive substances, including alcohol, without my spouse’s knowledge, to achieve a feeling of just “feeling good” rather than for legitimate and prescribed medical indications or in her presence in a social setting.
b. Having the idea occur that something I want does not first have to be enthusiastically agreed to by my spouse. Having any idea occur that cannot be discussed with or brought to the knowledge of my spouse. Finding myself withholding any emotion, activity, information or knowledge of any kind from my spouse. Basically, finding myself violating the principle of “radical honesty”.
c. Finding myself scheduling some activity that requires my being away from my spouse for a major part of a day, when the same activity could be scheduled to occur at a time when we could be together.
d. Being alerted by spouse of any forgetful, obsessive, or agitated behavior of mine.
3. In conversations with my wife, follow the principles of radical honesty, meeting her emotional needs, and relying on her (and my) “[censored] meter” to question whether my words are being formulated to deceive or achieve any other effect other than convey honest information or feelings to try to achieve any effect that is for my advantage rather than for our mutual benefit.
4. Discuss with my wife any feeling of anger or resentment or concern with regards to her or my sexual fulfillment.
5. Establish specific boundaries of behavior in our marriage and decide the specific consequences that would occur in the case of a violation of those boundaries, including:
a. Conversational boundaries with members of the opposite sex
b. What kinds of touching violate the boundaries of appropriateness, when interacting with members of the opposite sex
c. Boundaries regarding what kind of activities can be planned that involve private time with members of the opposite sex
d. Immediately inform spouse of any warning signs that occur with regard to the above.
6. Seek spiritual guidance and redemption by attending church regularly with my spouse and though meditation and prayer.

Well, great list, but I think it is more of an entire MB plan (ENs met, etc) than a list of EPs.

IMO, EPs are basically knowledge of actions/whereabouts and access to all communications (cell/email, etc), I would say...

I would consider not muddling it up, make it short and sweet so as a stand alone doc it can be referenced and held to scrutiny.

Here, I'm bored:


1. Suborn self-interest to the interests of the marital relationship. Establish the needs of the spouse and the marriage as the single most important thing in my life. Though this realization has already occurred as a result of this crisis, this will be continually reinforced and patterned by long-term, dedicated study and implementation of the principles and basic concepts in the Marriage Builders course and lesson work, which will establish:
a. Meeting the emotional needs of spouse as my prime consideration.
b. Discussing with my spouse if I feel my emotional needs are not being met.

1. I will actively take part in the MarriageBuilders counseling and program.

2. Recognize the clues and warning signs of risk-taking behavior, including:
a. Use of medications or any psychoactive substances, including alcohol, without my spouse’s knowledge, to achieve a feeling of just “feeling good” rather than for legitimate and prescribed medical indications or in her presence in a social setting.

a. Avoid alcohol or contolled substances that may cloud my judgement on NC.

b. Having the idea occur that something I want does not first have to be enthusiastically agreed to by my spouse. Having any idea occur that cannot be discussed with or brought to the knowledge of my spouse. Finding myself withholding any emotion, activity, information or knowledge of any kind from my spouse. Basically, finding myself violating the principle of “radical honesty”.

b. Commit to Radical Honesty as defined by MB and seek that with my MB counselors.

c. Finding myself scheduling some activity that requires my being away from my spouse for a major part of a day, when the same activity could be scheduled to occur at a time when we could be together.

Avoid Independent Behavior and seek to schedule activities with spouse rather than alone.

d. Being alerted by spouse of any forgetful, obsessive, or agitated behavior of mine.
censored] meter” to question whether my words are being formulated to deceive or achieve any other effect other than convey honest information or feelings to try to achieve any effect that is for my advantage rather than for our mutual benefit.

MB Program not EP.

4. Discuss with my wife any feeling of anger or resentment or concern with regards to her or my sexual fulfillment.
5. Establish specific boundaries of behavior in our marriage and decide the specific consequences that would occur in the case of a violation of those boundaries, including:

a. Conversational boundaries with members of the opposite sex
b. What kinds of touching violate the boundaries of appropriateness, when interacting with members of the opposite sex
c. Boundaries regarding what kind of activities can be planned that involve private time with members of the opposite sex
d. Immediately inform spouse of any warning signs that occur with regard to the above.

All good!

6. Seek spiritual guidance and redemption by attending church regularly with my spouse and though meditation and prayer.

Not EP.

Interestingly, you sem to have missed the key concept -- transparency in all communications through elimination of, or full access to, access to cell phone records, texting, emails at home and work and email passwords, all voicemail accounts and voicemail passwords, land line phone records home and work, beeper records, chat programs, or any other possible way contact could be made with OW (present, past and future).

Constant communications of whereabouts and plans. EX: after work, WW calls me to say if she is stopping off for an errand and tells me where and when she will be home. If she goes shopping she tells me in advance what stores she is going to and when she will be home (I usually send a D with her).

You get the drift.

GM - I suggest you also check out some of the sex addictions sites - usually there are SA meetings, and RecoveryNation has a great one on-line. I think you might at least want to consider that idea.

Oddly, SA has very little to do with sex, or so they say, but has to do with intimacy and control and FOO issues.

You are very intelligent and can figure out if it is something you need to look at or not.

Thanks, Mike. Points are good except for the things that duplicate what is on my NC list. I have a separate NC list. This other stuff was advised by Steve Harley to address the other behaviors in the decades preceding the affair. The actual NC list is shown below:

The following are my planned procedures to assure spouse of no attempted contacts with OW or any future infidelity by me:
1. Provide to spouse all passwords and sign-on’s to my phone records and answer any question about any logged calls or investigate to our satisfaction any unidentified call.
2. Carry an operable GPS tracking device for my vehicle whenever away from home and make sure that the device is functioning and active. Provide this device to spouse to download the GPS data upon her request and answer any questions she may have regarding the data.
3. Carry my GPS-trackable cell phone whenever away from the home so that spouse can see my whereabouts on a map at any time.
4. Take a polygraph at any time upon spouse’s request.
5. Provide spouse a post-nuptial legally-binding agreement that would insure that she receives settlement sufficient to maintain current lifestyle and current location in any future divorce settlement based on any infidelity from this point forward, as long as we remain legally married.
6. Keep track of who I call and ID the numbers on the cellphone website call logs.
7. Study and master all materials recommended by the Marriage Builders program and implement them permanently.


The following represents my planned procedure in case of any attempt by OW to communicate with me or in the case of any appearance before me, either intentional or unintentional. These scenarios and procedures are as follows:

1. If she attempts to contact by telephone
a. Do not answer, if caller ID is recognizable as hers or any of her friends.
b. If an unknown number calls, and I answer and discover it is her or any of her friends, hang up immediately without speaking.
c. Inform spouse as soon as possible.
d. Inform our attorney of the attempt, if spouse so agrees
e. Provide spouse with all passwords and sign on’s to access my cell phone logs.
f. Save any voicemails from her for review by spouse and our attorney
2. If she attempts to contact me by email or instant message
a. Do not answer
b. Save the material for review by spouse and our attorney
3. If I receive any written materials from OW, either in the mail or by any other route
a. Do not open
b. As soon as possible give to spouse for her examination
c. Inform our attorney, if spouse agrees
d. Do not open any unidentified mail except in spouse’s presence
4. If I encounter OW’s vehicle while driving or parked, or any vehicle in which she is recognized to be a passenger
a. Look straight ahead and do not make eye contact or attempt to gesture or communicate verbally or non-verbally
b. Change route as soon as possible and as necessary until the vehicle cannot be seen.
c. Inform spouse as soon as possible
5. If I encounter OW in public or at any event or store
a. Do not make eye contact or attempt to gesture or communicate verbally or non-verbally.
b. Turn around and walk away
c. Inform spouse as soon as possible
6. If approached purposefully by OW at any place or any time
a. Do not make eye contact or attempt to gesture or communicate verbally or non-verbally
b. Turn around and move away quickly
c. If OW follows or is insistent, find a security officer and tell him/her that I am being followed and harassed and to please intervene
d. Inform spouse as soon as possible
e. Contact our attorney
7. If I encounter OW on any public transportation.
a. Do not speak, gesture, or acknowledge her presence
b. Disembark at the first opportunity
c. Inform spouse as soon as possible

Actually, I don't think it was SA. I am aware of that entity, not to mention skeptical about it. I think SA is more of an excuse, though I could be wrong. I have always had a strong libido but probably not beyond the normal range. Possibly at the upper end of normal, but I am no expert on that. SSS and I have talked at length, and we both believe that it was more of a lifelong sense of entitlement and ego, combined with anger and resentment at my situation in the marriage. This situation, as mentioned, was created by my own dominating and unloving behavior very early in the marriage, and SSS's adaptation was completely predictable. Her adaptation was then used by me as an excuse. Looking back on it, what I did is really not a mental disorder, but more of just a despicable and immature behavior pattern that includes some affinity for risk-taking. The latter is something that lasted past adolescence only because I never was held to account. The very thought of repeating such a thing makes me sick to my stomach, now. It seems an impossibility that I would ever repeat such behavior. But just in case it is some kind of compulsion that could reappear in future years, I developed the first list that I posted, in order to recognize the warning signs and head it off at the pass. Steve Harley recommended that I do that, and SSS certainly agrees.

To be a less clinical about it, the truth is simply that I have been a [censored], a horrible jerk, a complete A-hole all my adult life in my personal and marital life. In all other respects, I have been a kind, empathetic, principled, law-abiding, ethical, and honest man. Most of who I am is really very good, believe it or not. I have done many good things for people and for the community, and I have wide respect. But in my personal life, I have been a mess. That is the area I am dedicated to fixing belatedly. SSS knows this, but I have done so much damage, that neither of us knows what will happen.

Sufficient?

I thought the point was it would wipe you out.

What you describe is probably what she would get in a straight up divorce.

I hadn't heard that EP and NC were tackled separately. Jennifer just had us do one. It seems like a lot of the stuff on your first list was just MB protocols, not "extraordinary".

Perhaps due to your history, Steve thought it was a good exercise.

I had 100%, but SSS suggested that be changed. I think the MB material worded it the way I showed it, also. The language there was suggested to me. As for me, I would go along with either, because there is no risk for me. Any EA for me in the future is off the table. Won't happen. One question was whether or not it should include the past. What is done is done. I am not sure how I would react to that suggestion that it include the past EA, as far as 100% of assets. I doubt that the attorney who represents me in the post-nup would even allow me to consider that. But for any future affairs, yes. She is going to ask Steve Harley again in the upcoming phone consult.