Yes. In fact there was a thread I stumbled on here a while back asking BSs if they were working to get their WSs back on board just so the BSs could dump them and hurt the WSs back. People admitted to that being their motivation to "recover" and it knocked the air out of me.

Some posters also said that they were going to go through the motions until the kids leave. I've asked H that. He says he's thought about it -- staying only for the kids. If it means we'd go back to living as we had the last few years, I won't stay until the kids leave. I'd leave before then.

L4,

If you H can honor your boundaries regarding name calling etc, then maybe you should just give him his time to think and process alone. I know it will be scary and it is probably scary for him as well. I'm one of those guys who needs to spend alone time thinking about problems to figure them out. I do not like long conversations etc as part of my thinking process. Maybe your H is like me, I need to think, ask short questions, think more, repeat until I have a decision. Then we can talk or negotiate.

I really think he will stay until the children are grown at a minimum, but I could be projecting my own overly developed parent mode onto him.

Thanks for the condolences on my divorce etc. I'm happy these days, but I hurt my children because I didn't force a resolution to the problems when the A occurred. I've learned from that.

Mark, your posts always speak to me. Good for my soul and much needed.

L4 I hope you can find the strength to hang on. A few months of R seems like years whether you are the the BS or the WS. BH feels like you MUST have hated him because it's hard to grasp how you could betray him otherwise. I thought my FWH must hate me to do the things he did. Why else would he be willing to cause me such pain? At the time it sure beat, "You weren't even a thought." Both suck and hurt. It takes a good while for most BS to digest that if they ever do. You may want to go back a hundred pages and read Sugar Cane's post to you describing how OMW likely felt on Dday when you were angry at OM. The feelings SC describe are those of your BH as well.

Wish you the best.

I think you owe it to your H to let him know that you too are evaluating if you are going to stay in the M. It may seem obvious but he should know it.

Don't miss that the analogy also applies to your own healing...

Go back and read it again keeping that aspect in mind.


Does he maybe see this as you trying to fix him?

Mark

He does. I've told him I won't stay only because the SF is better than it's been in years or soley out of obligation. I'm here now because I love H, I choose H, and I want to share our lives together. If he can't love me and choose me but stays only out of obligation -- which means he goes back to treating me as before -- I will leave, no matter how much I love him. I won't go back to that. What "that" is may still be lost on H, though. So that would take some learnin'. On both of our parts, frankly.

But I have to work on processing and healing from the betrayals first. Until then, the other stuff will only be addressed on an as needed basis. That's the game plan. And I need a plan, right E? (I've been reading Mikey's thread too.)

It's a thought, Mark, but I don't think so. I make myself available, tell H I'm here to answer questions, get the kids out of his hair, help him, leave him alone, enjoy SF with him, stay on my side of the bed, buy his favorite foods, hug him, put gas in the car, listen to him... Whatever he needs to heal.

If I was trying to fix him, I'd tie him up, put us on plane to an MB weekend, force him to listen to audio books of HNHN and SAA on the way, make him complete an EN form, duct tape him to a chair at the weekend, bring him a bedpan so he couldn't leave the room and wouldn't miss a word, and ravish his ENs 'till he couldn't breathe.

Think that'd work?

I don't either. (Well, maybe the EN part if I really knew what all of them are.) I'm letting him steer his ship.

L4,

I'm glad you've been so open with your H. I'll tell you what I think as a BS man type person. This may not apply to your H but since he isn't doing much talking I'll give you my take.

I would think that you "love" me now because I was trying really hard before, while you were having an A. So your love and dedication are conditional on my behavior, while you are expecting that my love, and behavior will not be conditional, that I will forgive this huge thing, or in your case two huge things. I would also think that you will probably have another A. Then I would make a plan to hide my true feelings from you to keep you around as a good mother to the children. When the children were raised I would be out the door.

I wish I had a solution to this for you. If the best you can get is for him to stay until the children are grown, then I think you can get him to behave in an acceptable way. That was my plan, and I can tell you that my WW thought I was completely over everything and happy. Her mother clued her into my plan, she is smarter than xW.

I would have carried the plan out all the way to the end but I started to feel guilty about it and forced the whole thing into the open. Which I should have done earlier.

Hello Looking4

You are right about not having a lot of time to turn this thing around...

Your husband's independent behaviour is increasing and him making plans WITHOUT including you is exactly what Mrs.Flint meant by him getting stronger everyday for a life with or without you...

You asked how do I forgive myself without minimizing what I did?

The adultery should only be brought up by your husband...AT THIS TIME...

If he wants to talk he will ask you...

Later after your H decision to make the marriage work has been made both of you can work on the marriage rebuilding together. When you show yourself and the marriage in a new light it is all torn down again by bringing up the affair...

The marriage based on lying before you were married?

You tell him that you agree, you would never live with a person that IS a liar. Remind him that not only have you confessed this to him, but to God also. Ask him if there is something more required biblically or personally to him. Tell him that you will NEVER lie to him again and that if he doubts anything you say, at any time, you will willingly take a polygraph (and pay for it yourself, which is exactly what Mrs.Flint offered to do.)

That what you did is unforgiveable?

All of the FWW have agreed how tough this is to do which is a CREDIT to all of you. It means that you ALL understand the depth of what has happened.

HOWEVER, to the Christians among you, I remind you that you don't get a choice and neither does your husband if they are Christian also.

You are commanded to be a light to the world. Are other persons attracted to you in a Christian way because of your behaviour and joy in your life? Have you shared Christ with them?

Your husband is COMMANDED to forgive you IF you have confessed and become repentant to him and to God. If he hasn't and you have he needs to be called on the carpet for that by your pastor. What does your pastor say about his behavior? This Christian thing isn't as easy as it looks, at least if you are doing it right...

Does that answer the forgiveness on both of your parts?

If not let me know...

Continuing to rub the adultery in your face?

See above about him being commanded to forgive you, seventy x seven...

You are going to have to remind your H that he can BELIEVE you are a different person because you CONFESSED your sins to him and to God. If you had not become the NEW person you are today you would not have confessed.

Re-read above...

Tell him again...

Tell yourself...

Over and over...

THAT is a tangible fact that he can see for himself and take to the bank.

Your love for him and desire for a new marriage based on truth is what motivated you to confess.

Remind him of that.

I REALLY think you are doing a good job for the length of time since D-day. The problem is two things. You have got to get more aggresive about the Christian thing. People that are not Christian just do not always understand forgiveness. Christians do. WE didn't deserve it or earn it either. And neither have you. None of us can. Is your husband treating you in a Christian way? Nope!

Forgiveness is GIVEN by Christ and by those that are Christian to other Christians. Neither you nor your husband are acting as though you believe you are forgiven.

The other thing is that you are basing everything as being contingent on your husband doing this or that. What if he wants out of the marriage? Will THAT make you forgive yourself? Of course not. Your job is to be the best wife and mother you can be.

The criteria for forgiveness is confession and repentance. If you have truly done so it's now on your husband. If he doesn't then it needs to be brought to your pastor's attention for his advice and his involvement. He can also back me up that it truly is time for you to forgive yourself...

I would really like to hear your pastors take on your husbands behaviour toward you and his lack of forgiveness. You have talked to him about the adultery haven't you? If not, I think it's probably time to get some more outside motivation, for both of you, don't you think?

God bless.

Jim

Jim, L4;

I would recommend against telling him that god will get him if he doesn't forgive (paraphrasing here).

In some jewish sects, divorce is basically required in the case of adultery. I'm pretty sure that christians are allowed to divorce in the case of adultery, but I could be wrong. Am I misinformed on that? Or do I not understand that he can forgive and divorce as well?

6yearsleft,

Which Jewish sect did Looking4 say she was from?

If I missed that, I apologize for the Christian message.

Your mockery of Looking4's faith and every other person who believes in God or any other deity is disgusting.

Both I and your former wife understand why your marriage failed and and it has NOTHING to do with God...

and because you asked,

Forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same...

Jim

This should probably be my last post today as I'm going to overload the storage capabilities on MB with all my words!

A lot of talk here the last couple of days about boundaries. The AOs and name calling are obvious and I know how to handle those. And have. It’s the DJs and IBs that I now have to find an appropriate way to deal with. Especially since the DJs are probably here to stay. They’ve always existed. More so in our later years together as he’s become more bitter and negative and they are so hard for H to see, even when I point them out right on the spot. We call them “thinking for me” moments – when H tells me what I want, think, or feel. During our brief time in MC, we were beginning to address these.

Yesterday morning I finally got H to talk about has been weighing on him. I told him the distance I’m feeling between us is really concerning to me. He began. So I let him do the talking. And after the initial, “I don’t know what to do,” the conversation became chalk full of DJs -- about how last year I hated him so much and wanted to divorce him, and was disgusted by H… He didn’t seem to think those thoughts last spring. If he did, he certainly did very little to try to change these bad opinions of him that I supposedly had. It’s now after knowing I was having an A then that he sees things differently. And yes, I was a different person. But the things he’s projecting on me now are untrue. I knew we were going to get nowhere so I tried to stop the DJs by saying, “You remember that time one way, H, and I remember it another. We both have different versions of the last few years.” He stated, “No. I know you hated me last year. You’ll never admit it. But I wish you would have divorced me then.” Much more was said.

Despite trying to tell H – both verbally and via email – what I was going through and what led to me having the A, he thinks what he thinks and I can’t change his mind. His opinion is the truth. And it’s interesting because he’ll ask me why I had the A. I’ll tell him the why and the what, as I’ve learned here at MB. He’ll then tell me why I did it. He apparently knows why – and it has little to do with my version. Yet he doesn’t know why. Are you as confused as I am?

Let me give two recent examples of how my H communicates with me:

Tuesday night – A commercial came on TV. I told H that that was the business that my sister’s partner almost worked for. Her former boss started that company and wanted sis’s partner to work for him in CA. Kind of exciting to see it’s going so well. H’s response? “Bet they regret that now. Probably didn’t go because your sister wanted to stay here so she wouldn’t have to be away from her precious friends and change her easy way of life.” The point of the story was I think it’s cool to see what has become of this person we indirectly know and their high profile business. H turned it into slamming my sister. I responded with the truth. “Actually sister wanted to go. It was Partner who wanted to stay here.” He added another DJ. I said, “Why do you have to turn my little story into something bad about Sis when you know nothing about it?” “Well, because she…” I left to get the laundry which is where I was on my way to anyway.

Wednesday night – I said, “I see where our backdoor neighbors have really cleaned up their backyard. It looks really nice. They’ve done a lot of work back there. And they cut the ivy so it won’t crawl up into our yard any more. They’ve planted flowers and trees… The kids and I were checking it out.” H’s response: “Great. Now in 5 years those trees will block our view.” I shook my head. H says, “What?” I said, “Why do you see the negative in things. That yard has been full of junk since we moved in 6 years ago. The new neighbors have fixed it up really nice and you focus on something that may or may not even happen 5 years from now. “ He said, “So you don’t want the view?” I said, “I don’t even know what kind of trees they’ve planted. I was trying to make conversation about our apparently responsible neighbors and you make their work a negative.” I said all of this with a smile on my face so as to not make it too serious. But this is my H. The glass if most often half empty. And the more grumpy he is, the more empty that glass becomes.

For the record, the majority of my life I’ve seen the glass as half full. I think I’ve even mentioned this here – that H is the pessimist and I’m the optimist. And he’d tell you the same if he was here. The world is out to get H and he'll remind you of that. So as you can imagine, my cheating has only hardened his belief that his life is full of hardship.

Way to go, L4.

Back to yesterday morning’s DJ-a-thon... I learned that H doesn’t believe I’ve told him everything. I have. Everything. And I’ve told him to ask if more questions come to mind. He said he believes I’ve betrayed him more than what I've admitted to but he’ll never know because I only tell him things he’ll be able to uncover through a third-party. He said that I am a liar, I’m the best liar he has ever met, and he’ll never trust me again. I told him that’s not true. There has been no one else. He said, “I don’t believe you.” So… Tell me how I can help him heal from that? How can I prove there is no one else when there isn’t anyone else?

BTW, as H was leaving the room yesterday morning, H said in a smart-alecky way, “I guess what I’ve learned is that if any guy gives you affection and attention, you’ll give him all of your love.” He walked out. I wanted to scream, “If you’ve learned this then why won’t you do that?! I’ve been telling you for years that’s what I need!” But I didn’t. It would have come out as an AO and I’m really watching the LBs. He'd also probably see it as me justifying my PA and not me trying to share a true EN with him. (Yes, that's a DJ, but I make it based on very recent experience. Don't shoot me.)

Jim,

You might want to read my story before you jump to conclusions about why my marriage failed.

It was an honest question no mockery intended, and I still recommend not chastising her H for being a bad christian.

We were cross-posting, Jim.

Pastor knows. Confessed to him two days after I confessed to H. Though now that I think of it... I don't think he knows about the pre-M PA. I should get him up to speed.

Pastor spoke briefly with H about the A when he stopped by our house in the early days. Kids were around so they didn't get into it. Pastor assured H he's available anytime and would be happy to talk with H alone or with me. H hasn't taken Pastor up on it.

I do need to meet with Pastor again though. I've been thinking about it a lot this last week, especially with all this forgiveness talk. Plus I really like Pastor and respect his opinions immensely. So I need to add that to the plan. I'll call Pastor and see if I can get a meeting with him soon.

Thank you, Jim.

L4,

I think you learned something really really important. I am sorry it was so painful to get the knowledge. Your H is afraid that you are such a good liar that he will never know what you are truly thinking. He has some reasons to think that, but it does give you a clue to an angle you can work.

6yearsleft,

Which part, the part where you said you don't love her anymore in your very first post???

Or where you do like scr*wing her but are going to dump her in six years no matter what???

Or the part where you refuse to forgive her???

It read the same as the last time... :RollieEyes:

Jim

Jim,

Perhaps you missed the part where I offered to reconcile if she would be a good mother and she refused, abandoned her children and moved to Italy.

I did not refuse to forgive her, she refused to ask for forgiveness.

I'm not sure that telling the truth in my posts should elicit such venom, I didn't love her anymore, she never asked for forgiveness, I pushed for some attempt at reconciliation because I felt guilty about the situation.

I still see you recommending that L4 get the pastor to help her tell her husband that he is being a bad christian.

6yearsleft,

I refuse to allow your hatred for Christianity to be lodged in Looking4's thread at her expense. If you want to discuss this somewhere else please let me know, but please keep replies directed at me out of her thread unless she requests it. Thank you.

Jim

Jim,

Last one, I don't hate christians - nice character attack there. You started it, my post was very specifically a recommendation for L4 to not use her religion as a hammer to compel behavior from her husband. I like L4 and I am giving my advice and perspectives to try to help her be happy.

6yearsleft,

I think the above quote contradicts your two statements about not mocking Christianity and who started it...

Jim