LOL, I actually got that.



This is VERY important. It's good to see that you recognize this. Sounds like you're willing to do the work on you.

What's the status on the NC letter? It's an important issue.

well, I don't know. I guess that's ZW's call. do I need to do it over again? that actual letter or the plan? the plan has been written out, oked by ZW and sent to Dr. H. Goodness, I really like to not have any contact at all and I don't know OM's actual address...so do I tape it to his door or something? do I email it? really don't want to open up the email thing. I guess that's entirely up to whatever ZW wants, that is what I'll do.

Coho -

You and I have butted heads here, but a friend on MB seems to want to help you, so I will pitch in.

JustLearning posted here on your thread, and I'm sure you don't know him, but he gives the absolute best advice, better than anyone else's here on MB, to WW's.

I really hope that you will respond to him, because he has experience with helping WW's. It is almost uncanny.

got it, will do. I think I have answered most of them throughout but will be happy to do a condensed one tomorrow. ZW and I are off to date night right now, so gotta go get ready. Thank you all so much!!!

Thanks for your reply. I am glad that you are sensitive to his moods. It is wonderful that you can be frank with each other. This is well on the way to establish a POJA.

Your views on independence coincide with this site's views on "when a woman leaves a man".

Zen has expressed that you have had " a light switch" moment. Does this mean that you have motivated yourself to recognize the good points in your marriage? Would you share them with us?

1. It’s a culmination of a lot of things. Growing apart – not sharing many of the same interests anymore – or sharing them, but not feeling like I have any say or not allowed participation in (house, garden, music, furniture – ask about curtains some time - twice), so then when suggested I need to have hobbies, I start going off in another direction – mostly work and culinary pursuits that are not the same (I cook Japanese, he cooks Thai, I cook French, he cooks Mexican, etc. because we can’t possibly specialize in the same). Then, when my mom/nanny decides to go back to school, we decide I should quit my career and stay home with the kids. I was for looking in to all options, but ZW really wanted me to find a way to stay home. That turned out to not really be for me. Now, you’re probably thinking with recent events and this revelation that I’m not very maternal – I’ve breastfed, cloth diapered, made their baby food, have 3 slings for baby wearing and believe in attachment parenting, so that isn’t it at all. I’m not cut out to be a stay at home mom – in addition to that I took on a few extra kids and while I loved them all, that really drove me bonkers. So, while this is happening, I’d need adult time and Adam never wanted to go out, so I’d go out with girlfriends. By end of August of last year, or beginning of September, I’d really had it. I was going out 2-3 times a week, working 4 10-12 hour days with the kids and not at all happy. So, while Adam did not like the idea at all, I decided I needed to go back to work, one way or another. Either I bartend nights or I try to get back in to marketing/communications/multimedia work that I’m used to and put the kids in preschool. I found the preschool while simultaneously pursuing both job options. While searching, in October, I suggested that perhaps we have some problems in our marriage. Nothing came too much of that other than I voiced it. I think we may have talked about it one more time after that, but I don’t recall. I found a marketing job at the same time I found a small, pt. time bartending job right at the beginning of November. I was still going out a lot, bar-backing sometimes at the bar where the OM was met through my friend, the bartender (friend prior to her working there), working 13 days straight to try and catch up from not working for so long ($$). 1 week before thanksgiving without prior thought I suggested to OM that we take off and so we did. I called the next morning and told OM that it was a stupid mistake and that I’d never do that again. He said ok, and that lasted awhile, and you know the rest.
So, in that, I had the affair because I was not happy in my marriage. I didn’t have the guts to file for divorce, so I did something that would cause irrevocable damage to force a divorce. I didn’t have an EA first, I had a PA first. After the PA, I thought it was a mistake and tried to bury it. After awhile, the OM started meeting emotional needs and I never would have told ZW about it if he wouldn’t have found out, I would have just let ZW go. Too much guilt and too much pain – no need to inflict it on ZW. But he found out, and so there it was. Again, it’s a first instinct I think of a WS, to hold on to the guilt and pain and keep running to the OM. Why face the BS if you don’t have to?
2. & 3. A good marriage is a partnership. I was looking at the POJA and ZW and I talked a bit about the giver/taker dynamic. I suggested that I think that dynamic is dangerous in itself. Why should there be a giver and taker? Through our decade together there have been years where he was the taker, times when we were equals and these last few months I was certainly the taker. But really, both should be givers. There’s times when people need to feel like they’re being given to more than others – obviously if you’re sick or hurting, you need to take a bit more, but it does need to be agreeable. I think that is a good marriage. I used to love the idea, in the book Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut of the Nation of Two. A good husband is half of that dynamic. A good husband needs to be strong for me sometimes – not always let me be the strong one. I get tired of it even if I don’t show it. A good husband needs to be the counterweight. Sometimes heavy, sometimes light, but keeping it balanced with me.

4. I remain married because this is where my life is. I don’t have the perfect, pretty answer – I don’t know what that would even be. This is my life. This is my family. This is what we built. This is where I belong.

5. oh, well. Yeah. I’ve had my therapy on this. This is your basic fear of abandonment and fear of failure. I don’t rely on other people – I’ll just do it myself because then I can control the outcome. “I don’t fail. I do not make mistakes. Why would I let you make a mistake when I can make sure it’s done right? You can’t fail me if I don’t even let you try. If I don’t rely on you, you can’t disappoint me.” I'm very typical in this until I unravel. pull yourself up by your bootstraps, fix it, make it work, move forward, point a to point b. But, when a control freak loses control or lets it all become a giant clusterf##k, that is when the anxiety takes over and the focus is gone.

you know, when I first read the 'when a woman leaves a man' some of it hit home, but a lot of it I thought did not apply at all. I will re-read.

oh, there are plenty of good points in the marriage. it's hard to look at them sometimes without the tainted view- like the food thing. we're both pretty into the 'foodie' thing and that's fun to share. but to have to fight to get a day open so I can make chevre - what a pain in the butt that was even though I need to have hobbies. see? I wanted time in a fabric store while we were in sisters, and I got a few minutes alone, and I bought something he would like too. things like that are good. I guess - it's hard right now. I felt after all of these years I needed to be selfish and I took it to the pinnacle of selfishness. now, coming back down, I look at all the reasons why - all the tarnish is hard to clean off.

he taught me how to fly fish. but got pissed that I hooked a fry and didn't even know it was on the line when I yanked the line back out of the water and the fry hit the rocks.

He's taken me all over Oregon. we've visited all the places you're supposed to visit when you're a kid with your family. that was super cool. that was pre our kids.

he's opened up my world to a lot of things - entomology even though I will hold on to my insect phobia until my dying breath, I can hide it from my kids. ha. Music - oh, my lordy, music. ha. when we first met, he refused to listen to later beatles or led zeppelin. so funny. to wrap his head around something - it just has to be done in his own way and own time. but I had never listened to early kinks before him, and now that is some of my all time favorite.

he's doing a job that isn't really artistic at the venture of it all to try to support his family. he has to have some sort of art outlet. I don't need that as much. I like the business game. so, sometimes that is complimentary

he's built like....I don't know. really broad shoulders, very muscular, tiny hips, mountain biker's butt, huge soccer thighs and calves...built very well without much effort.

we're both pretty nerdy in our own ways and we both get super obsessed with our current interests - that can be both good and bad. it can alienate us or bring us together depending on the topic.

I have a history with comic books/graphic novels and we went to see Watchmen last night. I was sorely disappointed, but other than that, the previews for the other nerdy movies made me super excited and we laughed about how nerdy I am.

and here I am rambling again. it's that shared history - that knowing each other so well that allows things like that. but it's also that shared history that's marred. like the story about fishing and yanking that poor fry out of the river - that should be a funny story. but it's not. it hurts.

oh, I have a little boy with poopy pants. I hope this answers something. not sure what.

I accidentally used his real name. sorry. and it won't let me edit it. sorry.

ok, so reading over that and getting input from ZW, it doesn't read very appreciative. ZW has always been there for me to lean on, confide in - he has always been the steady one. he has built this house, he has gotten up with the kids at night countless times (I sleep like a rock), he has more than pulled his weight. this affair, this mess, is my fault and my fault alone. ZW is better than any man on earth can possibly be. he's thoughtful, sweet, hardworking, super intelligent (I mean, come on, entomology as a hobby?!? remembering every latin name of every plant and insect? I can't even remember my 2 years of spanish!)

I'm here because I loved him then and I love him now and we're going to bake cookies together for our grandchildren. that is why.

Knowing about all those bugs should be great for catching coho...

And other salmonidae.

Just a little humor to lighten the mood a bit...

I'm going now. Gotta tie up a bunch of plecoptera imitators for my next fishing trip.

Mark

Well, if you like Indian food, you can't be all bad! lol

Seriously, I could be you. My H was the exact same way. I could have written the same words. The difference? I didn't feel entitled to change things to give myself anything, such as an affair partner. I just put up with it. Took me 30 years to find the nerve to speak up and fix things.

What changed? I came here. People told me to get over myself. I was insulted. I was mad. I was sure they were all wrong.

But they weren't. They saw exactly what was wrong - I was refusing to admit MY 50% of the problem.

Once I admitted it, I had to work on it. I've been here 1 1/2 years. It has taken me this long to finally have 'the' talk and work things out. You have an advantage in that ZW is already here. You can go right to him and own up to your half and ask to work together.

Total humility.

Can you do that? Doesn't seem like it yet. Seems like you still have some really trite answers for everything.

So I'll ask: Have you had a 100% honest conversation about this with your mom and dad (if alive)? Your brothers and sisters? Your best friend? ZW's parents?

NOTHING is going to change until you have faced all these people in total honesty and begged them for forgiveness.

JMO

Coho,

Thank you for answering my questions. As you can imagine I find your answers very confusing and I would think your H would find them very discouraging.

I get the "we grew apart" aspect of your answer #1.

But, I have big problems with some of the other things you have said. You say you are a control freak and really need control, but it is clear you cannot control yourself or your H. Don't you find that interesting? You violate your own morals and vows because you have no control. You offer no other reason.

Your answer to #4 is also interesting. You remain married or want to as a default decision. You apparently derive little joy from it, little satisfaction from it, and don't truly honor it. That is sad. Your marriage should be source of strength, a source of joy, a source of satisfaction. I could go on, but you don't even stay because you like your H. Interesting.

You said in another post

Yet you have a need to control. While I am glad you realize the affair is your fault, accepting that is not really what leads to recovery. What you have not said is "what you told yourself to make having an affair OK with you and your moral" You see being ticked at your H does not absolve you of your vows or your morals. Feeling distant from does not absolve you of your vows or your morals. Being a "strong woman" or a "controlling" woman does not absolve you of your vows or your morals.

You need to understand why it was so easy for you to violate yourself, when in fact you fear so many things and mostly things being done wrong.

You also said

I think you misinterpretted Dr. Harley's discussion of the "giver/taker". He states we both have them and they need to be in balance "within ourselves" Some who is a total "giver" is actually going to have as much problem in the marriage as someone who is a total "taker". I uses these two aspects of human nature to illustrate that there is nothing wrong in needing something from your spouse, and there is nothing wrong in giving to your spouse, but there is something very wrong if you do one or the other to the exclusion of the other.

He points out that plan A is for trying to recover the marriage but it is NOT a good marriage strategy. Why? Because plan A requires the BS to put their taker on hold completely for a period of time and no can do that for long without developing a deep resentment. So plan A is for a definite period of time. Taker/giver need to be balanced, but each persons balance point and and I believe often is slightly different.

POJA is a way to avoid resentment. Harley does not believe in unnegotiated sacrifice on the part of either spouse as it leads to resentment as does the strongly unbalanced giver/taker in either spouse. There is an old saying that applies to this


There is much more to say, but I thought I would end this particular post with an question and observation which will lead back to my question of what you told yourself.

When you marry and you say vows before friends, family, church, etc. Who are you making those promises to?? Most folks they are making them to the other spouse. But, I contend that is not true. You make them out loud so that your spouse knows you have made them, but you make them to yourself. It is you, that is going to have to maintain your fidelity. It is you, that is going to have to honor your spouse. It is you that is going to have to love your spouse through sickness and health. And by the way when the vow says love, it does not mean "feel in-love" it means as in actions. You may be really ticked at your H but you still promised to love him via loving actions. The love you vowed as an action not a feeling. You see whether your H was there or not. Whether he could find out or not. You made those vows to yourself and it is your duty to maintain them, otherwise you violate yourself first and foremost. You violate your family and your H second.

So my questions to you are to probe you concerning your own feelings about your violations of your promises and vows. My questions are meant to start a dialogue about what you see in yourself, and you are going to change in yourself, and what your plan is to protect YOUR boundaries in the future. You see if you don't come to a point of developing a plan to protect your own boundaries/vows/promises how can your H ever come to the point of feeling he can trust you and feel protected by you and your vows?

You are not there yet. You are still a little foggy. You are still dancing around some deep subjects. When you settle down and really start to probe yourself, you will begin to see the power of what is one this site.

Meantime, let's continue to talk. I think you have the potential to become a very honest, a very good, and a very productive human being and more importantly to your H, spouse.

There is no doubt he has things he needs to change. But there is also no doubt only he can change them as only you can address yourself. Let him work on his changes and you start to take inventory of yourself and then develop a plan to get where you want to be.

I hope something I have said is of use to you.

God Bless,

JL

I agree!

Thanks for the detail about Zen entomological hobbies. I live in South Africa where the insects really get interesting.

Thanks for the warning of the Watchmen. What did Zen say?

I don't mean to be trite. I do have a self-deprecating sense of humor and often deal with things with humor or with being flippant. I'm not a cryer. well, not with my own life. we went as a family today to see Marley and Me thinking it was more of a kids movie (it's not really) and I bawled during most of the movie.

I've talked to my family some - not since getting less foggy tho. My dad has been dead for some time now. ZW's parents? Oh, no way. I'm not ready. I hurt their precious boy. I don't mean that sarcastically at all - I mean that as a mother. The love a parent has for their children isn't like any other love on earth and to know that, and to face that? My family knows me well - I'm not the person who hides who they are from their family. Many people take on different traits around their family - you know, tone it down or what-have-you. I'm less afraid of facing them at this time. I've talked to my brother a few days ago.

The similarities of unfaithful behavior and addiction are startling. Addicts withdrawal from those they love out of shame when they are using. It's the MO. I don't want to see in their face what I'm doing wrong. Know the saying, "you know how to know when a junkie is lying? Their lips are moving." People fall off the wagon the same, relapse the same, have withdrawal symptoms the same - damage relationships the same.

I'm not mad or insulted here. I pause to write certain things and pause to respond not wanting to hurt ZW any more than I have and knowing he won't be able to resist reading this even though I just warned him not to for awhile. that and it's hard to know where to start or what to write. I feel like I'm throwing things out here and seeing what sticks. I feel like I'm finally getting people who ask the right questions back, so I know where/how to fine-tune my, uh...what do I call this? I don't even know. I'm in the lake, I don't know how to swim and I have to pull a bag of bricks with me. Something like that.

oh, yes, I have problems all of my own and only I own them.

did I answer anything or just babble?

JL

I don't remain married as a default decision. The horrible truth is I don't have to be here - no one has to be here. I remain married out of love and because this is where I want to be.

Never really thought of an affair as violating myself. I had to digest that one for a bit today.

I want to write things that I don't think BSs should read, that I'm sure have been written on this forum before, and I certaily don't want ZW to read...

having that individual, focused attention - that early, visceral feeling of love and attraction, to be doted on and that look of awe that someone gives you when you're first in a relationship - that's the high. that's the reason - or a reason. it was all mine, I didn't have to share it.

I don't know that I reasoned with myself much - hence the heavy drinking to block out what I was doing. hate drama, hate guilt, hated the reality of it. it's not 'so easy'. why does someone goes through with it when it's not so easy - well, the paragraph before this I suppose.

I don't feel absolved of anything. I saw your post today or yesterday on a thread about a BH going to plan D with his FWW after 3 years of trying to recover--I was just searching your posts and found that one. my mention has nothing to do with what you wrote - my heart just sank so much when I read that man's feelings. When I see so many on here who have such deep wounds and knowing that I'm one of the knife holders - that sucks. I still question my right to be here.

I do like my husband. he's my best friend, he's a wonderful person, sex is fabulous, he's a great cook, he's super smart - any woman would be hard-pressed to find someone even close to as wonderful. Yes, marriage should be a source of strength, joy and satisfaction....that would be nice. I think I screwed some of that up for awhile if not forever.

This is hard. earlier today, driving around town with the family, I had some of this sorted out in my head as I've been thinking about it...but then, this evening with the kids and life happening in between...and I sit down to write what I was thinking and I'm not sure where it went! ah, kids, so cute but I swear they make my brain melt a little more every day. I appreciate those that are on here to help and really do give points to ponder and think about. I feel like I'm less focused in what I write as I come here every day...more all over the board and starting down lines of reasoning, but stalling out before I come to a conclusion. I don't know if that's better or worse.

here's a question that I keep coming back to. what right do I have to be here? he's a good man, with a lot to offer. wouldn't he heal better and be able to go on and have a more normal relationship without me? He makes good money, has a good future, a nice house, paid off truck, is a master fisherman/gardener/wood-worker....would a BS recover...I don't know if 'better' is the right word, but recover more if they didn't see the F/WWS every day - had someone to hate for awhile? didn't have to work at it? I'm not looking for a way out - don't take this wrong, oh, please don't sick the MB wolves on me, I'm just trying to do what's right by ZW and this, I feel, is a valid thought. I haven't lost resolve.

ugh. I feel crappy. stupid dog movie today made me cry. I hate crying. PMSing. that thread mentioned above. some cavelier mockery of people's lives on this site. looking at my own life/our life and hating the soap opera that it was made into by me. reading back over this and thinking everything I write can be taken wrong and I don't know how to make it write. crap. I"m crying. I'm signing off for tonight.

and my spelling and grammar is stellar tonight as well. ok, really signing off.

Coho,

Don't worry about the spelling and grammer. Mine gets a little shady especially as I start to type faster and faster as I have more to say.

Let's tackle something very important that you said.

If you want to do what is right you must do three things:

1. Be a good mother to your children.

2. Be as good a W as you can to ZW.

3. Let ZW make the decisions about what he can and cannot take, what he wants and does not want.


Frankly, I am sure he is torn. Part of him wants to leave this pain. Part of him wants to preserve his family. Part of him LOVES you deeply and wants you in his life.

The part the LOVES you deeply sees thing in you that you clearly don't see. He sees a strong good woman that does NOT need to be controling because she can handle what comes up. He sees a woman that he gave his heart to and who still holds his heart in her hands. He sees the mother of his children. He sees the little girl in you. He sees so many things, and yes he sees some of the parts of you that allowed you to cheat. And so seeing all of this, he struggles.

If you were to act like DD's W in the post you were referring to and had another affair and then aborted the child from that affair, I am sure he would be more resolute in his decision.

You should really really consider that the affair is violating yourself. It is only you that makes your vows work. It is only you that can meet your moral standards. And IF you decide you want to be a good and faithful W I strongly suggest that you develop a plan to protect your weakness and your marriage.

I have mentioned this before but I will do it for you again. I did not marry until my 30's. I had a very enjoyable single life. I traveled the world, I finished my education, I was in the military, and I dated many women. When I got married my job entailed a great deal of travel and since I knew my way around night clubs, bars, etc. and I knew that while I never wanted to cheat on my W, that life has a way of tempting one. So I developed my own plan. When I traveled I never went to night clubs or any place where there was dancing. I never went to bars. I ate alone or in groups but never individually with women. I carried books and work to do in my room at night and that is what I have done for over 30 years. My travel was at times as much as 3 weeks a month. I have never cheated on my W. Not because I am stronger, or smarter, or whatever. I never cheated because I stayed away from temptation, did my job, and came home to my W.

You don't have to use my plan, but I knew myself and I knew human nature, so I made sure that I limited my exposure to temptation.

You need to know yourself. YOu need to understand your weakness. YOu need to understand what you need from your H and what your H needs from you. And most of all you need plan that addressess your weakness, the holes in your boundaries. You will be happier and your H will develop a trust for you.

Your H could even help IF you two can sit down and dispassionately discuss the holes in your boundaries.

You should be on this forum and you should write from YOUR point of view, however your concern for your H reading some of this is valid, yet ZW might be willing to discuss these thing with you before you write them here.

You have not quite figured out yet in your fogged state but he would much rather hear the truth spoken by you, than not hear the truth spoken by you, or worse her lies by omission or commission.

The excitement of an affair is real, and you are certainly not unique to feel it and desire it. But, you have to ask yourself is this excitement worth the "excitement" of your family breaking up?

I must go, but I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Here is a hint. You are getting a lot of information thrown at you. Wait a day and then go back and reread the posts and select a topic or two and sit down with a word editor and just focus on that topic and then cut and paste it into here. It will help you organize your thoughts and responses.

Hey Coho,
Its so good to see your still here and posting, thanks for replying to my thread. I wonder if you have looked at ZW's EN's yet?

You said that you wonder what right you have to be here. I assume you mean your marriage. Actually you don't really have any right to it. On the other hand ZW loves you and wants to try. I wrote something to him the other night that got eaten by the upgrade monsters... the reason we do MB is so we can say we tried EVERYTHING, and really that goes for WS's and well as BS's. I have alot of statistics and research on D that I did during the A, while I was still deciding to do MB or not. Trying is best, really.

I also posted to ZW that for the time being he should not read your thread, this is the voice of experience here, I am not so far into recovery myself and i remember what it was like still. Rather vividly in some cases.



thats the fog clearing. Yep it sucks. Yep its going to suck for a while. It is actually a good thing tho. You are regaining normal human empathy that the A chemicals seem to suppress, and if what I read on another thread is correct, will give you an almost Pavlovian response should similar circumstances eventuate that lead to the A in the first place. I can say Flick still feels them after 8 months, KiwiJen (a very sweet FWW) still feels it several years after the fact. Its part of the damage you have done to your self.


As a FBW I think this from time to time myself. The reality is you don't get to choose this one, its up to ZW to say if he can't take it. And while I may have days where I get very close to calling it quits, the days when it is great, help me see what a wonder and miricle choosing to stay each day is. Really, why would you want ZW to hate you? Hate is just a slow poison that benefits no-one. Wouldnt it be better to work on love?

I am sorry you had a bad day. They will pass as you defog, get more secure in your M, as you and ZW regain your love and comfort in each other. Yes the kids will drive you mental and suck your will to live LOL. It does get better.

*hugs*

Then I would have to advise ZW to not trust you. You don't truly want your marriage. You want YOU to be happy. Marriage is about wanting the OTHER person to be happy.

Have you ever been in that position? Or has it always been about you? Did he marry you hoping that you would learn to love him?

You say you want this marriage because it is your life. Umm...what? Not because you found a great man? Because you love your kids more than your own life? Just because it's what you have?

Sorry, but I've never even been betrayed (that I know of), and even I am feeling pretty indignant at your lack of contrition and level of selfishness.

I've written and re-written a response to this. I can't even respond without coming across as incredibly defensive, angry and hurt. the thought that I write something and you get to play with our lives and decide to advise against me - how am I supposed to post? I can't explore thoughts?