I expect you'll find telling that I was married when I met BH.

oh, crap.

ok.

well, BH is zenwolf.

so,

yeah. I don't know. nah, that's a cop-out. I do know. I like validation, albeit in unhealthy ways at times.

let's get this clear, I have not been cheating (on either) all along - just when I decide I want out I move on. Not excusing it, just trying to make sure we understand I'm not an open market.

I just read BH's thread - well a good bulk of it. I can see I'm due for a thrashing, but will listen and take it and absorb it and apply it.

thanks,
cohosalmon

Hi Cohos,

I think I know you quite well from his posts.

Please endure the insults that is going to come your way. We are a marriage building community and folk do this to steer you into the right direction.

As I recall, your independent behaviour is a chief problem for you husband. We agree. Forgo all other contact and for a 25-30 hour weekly contact time.

Your husband has been disabled by your actions.

Fix him. He loves you.

yep, thought so.

I am very glad for zenwolf's sake you are here.

To be honest, I don't see how he could expect that you are serious about making the kinds of changes necessary to keep a good man like him at your side, but again I am glad you are here.

He is too good a man to be put through this.

I'll shut up for awhile....

no, please, don't. that won't do me any good.

Fear not, I won't be able to shut up for long.

PS: I am married to your east coast twin.

Thanks for coming here. You may get some posts from folks that seem raw and over the top. A fresh FWW is coming out of the fog and may trigger some BS's...just know you may be confronted more readily than some, but please stay.

I have, what I think, is a very important question...

Are you prepared, for the rest of your life, to have only one man in your life...no matter what, no matter what excuse, no matter what happens with you or who you meet, or how you feel?

If you can't answer yes to this, then figure out what is getting in your way...what rationalization, what gate, would allow you to allow someone else in your life...

My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.

OK,

But there are 2 issues...there are problems with a marriage, and there is an affair...and one does not explain the other.

If you truly are resolved to NEVER having another man in your life except zen...and I mean truly resolved...no looking at other men in fancy red sportscars, no oggling at Brad Pitt, no casual 'hi's' to coworkers, then this may resolve one issue.

My thought is this is easy to say or answer, but to do, is quite another...

How can you let him know this? Perhaps showing you he cares about you can come in another form for him? Or perhaps he doesn't know how important it is to you?

If I were you, I would do some serious counseling. You are young, and on your second marriage, which was born from an affair. You are STILL (in the last couple days) seeing your adultery partner.

You have young kids who depend on you, and you have been out at bars, and driving drunk.

I don't care how awful your husband was, not helping, blah, blah, blah. You are on the path to destruction, and the destruction of your family too.

Hi Coho, I see the last few posts to your thread before the boards went down have been lost. The last thing I remember writing to you was something like the below in response to your request for help and guidence.

You said in an earlier post that you are reading SAA, I wondered where you were up to with that? Also, have you and Zen filled in the ENQ and LBQ? Have/are you making some time for UA without the wee ones? Have you written your EP's (extrordinary protection) and a NC letter to the OP for Zen to look over?

ok, so, that was a huge ambiguous tangent unless you get where I'm coming from. then it would make sense.

what I do is my responsibility and I'm better than my family history - I am responsible for my actions and life doesn't "happen to you", you control your own life.

Cohosalmon,

I have read your thread and a bit of your H's. I am sitting here thinking I should say many things to you, but realize something very important.

You have never stated WHY you had the affair. You have never stated what you told yourself to allow your boundaries (I assume you have them with regard to marriage and fidelity) to be overrun.

You have never stated what you feel a good marriage would be.

You have never stated what you feel a good husband would be.

You have never really stated why you want to remain married to your H.

You have never stated why you have issues with "controlling" things. My question would be is what do you fear. Most controlers fear many things most of them things they cannot control.

So I would like to inquire as to your take on the things I see missing from the information we would need to really offer you advice.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks for your reply. I am glad that you are sensitive to his moods. It is wonderful that you can be frank with each other. This is well on the way to establish a POJA.

Your views on independence coincide with this site's views on "when a woman leaves a man".

Zen has expressed that you have had " a light switch" moment. Does this mean that you have motivated yourself to recognize the good points in your marriage? Would you share them with us?

We talked a bit today in the car to get Indian food for lunch together....

it's interesting that the BS is shocked that the relationship was so damaged in the eyes of the WS, time and time again this is what happens in these disasters. I did bring up that I hadn't really been talking to him for years. I felt he had always dominated the conversations, that he'd cut me off and never ask me to continue or care what I had to say, that I thought he was hyper-critical of anything I did say (any factoid I ever had wasn't real until it was verified by a reliable source such as a friend with a PhD or a respected news source he read himself), so I quit confiding and talking to him long ago. I got mad at first, but then just let it go. it's all those things that added up, that leads to a WS letting themselves be open - letting down boundaries and letting those needs be met by someone else. at first it was just girlfriends that met those needs, but the more I became disillusioned in my marriage, the more I just didn't want to be in it and went to the habit I knew to break it.

ok, so reading over that and getting input from ZW, it doesn't read very appreciative. ZW has always been there for me to lean on, confide in - he has always been the steady one. he has built this house, he has gotten up with the kids at night countless times (I sleep like a rock), he has more than pulled his weight. this affair, this mess, is my fault and my fault alone. ZW is better than any man on earth can possibly be. he's thoughtful, sweet, hardworking, super intelligent (I mean, come on, entomology as a hobby?!? remembering every latin name of every plant and insect? I can't even remember my 2 years of spanish!)

I'm here because I loved him then and I love him now and we're going to bake cookies together for our grandchildren. that is why.
_________________________

2. & 3. A good marriage is a partnership. I was looking at the POJA and ZW and I talked a bit about the giver/taker dynamic. I suggested that I think that dynamic is dangerous in itself. Why should there be a giver and taker? Through our decade together there have been years where he was the taker, times when we were equals and these last few months I was certainly the taker. But really, both should be givers. There’s times when people need to feel like they’re being given to more than others – obviously if you’re sick or hurting, you need to take a bit more, but it does need to be agreeable. I think that is a good marriage. I used to love the idea, in the book Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut of the Nation of Two. A good husband is half of that dynamic. A good husband needs to be strong for me sometimes – not always let me be the strong one. I get tired of it even if I don’t show it. A good husband needs to be the counterweight. Sometimes heavy, sometimes light, but keeping it balanced with me.

Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

Coho,

Meantime, let's continue to talk. I think you have the potential to become a very honest, a very good, and a very productive human being and more importantly to your H, spouse.

Well, if you like Indian food, you can't be all bad! lol

Seriously, I could be you. My H was the exact same way. I could have written the same words. The difference? I didn't feel entitled to change things to give myself anything, such as an affair partner. I just put up with it. Took me 30 years to find the nerve to speak up and fix things.

What changed? I came here. People told me to get over myself. I was insulted. I was mad. I was sure they were all wrong.

But they weren't. They saw exactly what was wrong - I was refusing to admit MY 50% of the problem.

Once I admitted it, I had to work on it. I've been here 1 1/2 years. It has taken me this long to finally have 'the' talk and work things out. You have an advantage in that ZW is already here. You can go right to him and own up to your half and ask to work together.

Total humility.

Can you do that? Doesn't seem like it yet. Seems like you still have some really trite answers for everything.

So I'll ask: Have you had a 100% honest conversation about this with your mom and dad (if alive)? Your brothers and sisters? Your best friend? ZW's parents?

NOTHING is going to change until you have faced all these people in total honesty and begged them for forgiveness.

JMO

here's a question that I keep coming back to. what right do I have to be here? he's a good man, with a lot to offer. wouldn't he heal better and be able to go on and have a more normal relationship without me? He makes good money, has a good future, a nice house, paid off truck, is a master fisherman/gardener/wood-worker....would a BS recover...I don't know if 'better' is the right word, but recover more if they didn't see the F/WWS every day - had someone to hate for awhile? didn't have to work at it? I'm not looking for a way out - don't take this wrong, oh, please don't sick the MB wolves on me, I'm just trying to do what's right by ZW and this, I feel, is a valid thought. I haven't lost resolve.

my heart just sank so much when I read that man's feelings. When I see so many on here who have such deep wounds and knowing that I'm one of the knife holders - that sucks.

he's a good man, with a lot to offer. wouldn't he heal better and be able to go on and have a more normal relationship without me? He makes good money, has a good future, a nice house, paid off truck, is a master fisherman/gardener/wood-worker....would a BS recover...I don't know if 'better' is the right word, but recover more if they didn't see the F/WWS every day - had someone to hate for awhile? didn't have to work at it?

I've talked to my family some - not since getting less foggy tho. My dad has been dead for some time now. ZW's parents? Oh, no way. I'm not ready. I hurt their precious boy. I don't mean that sarcastically at all - I mean that as a mother. The love a parent has for their children isn't like any other love on earth and to know that, and to face that? My family knows me well - I'm not the person who hides who they are from their family. Many people take on different traits around their family - you know, tone it down or what-have-you. I'm less afraid of facing them at this time. I've talked to my brother a few days ago.

The similarities of unfaithful behavior and addiction are startling. Addicts withdrawal from those they love out of shame when they are using. It's the MO. I don't want to see in their face what I'm doing wrong.

I've written and re-written a response to this. I can't even respond without coming across as incredibly defensive, angry and hurt. the thought that I write something and you get to play with our lives and decide to advise against me - how am I supposed to post? I can't explore thoughts?

I'll suck it up and deal.

Coho,

When you are down, do you know where to turn? You simply turn to your H. You go over and hug him, maybe kiss him. You simply take his hand and hold it and draw strength. He has the strength to help you, he doesn't even know how much strength he has, but he has enough so use it. You two are still a team.

There will be times when he needs your strength, but right now you need his. Go to him and just hold on.

God Bless,

JL

thank you, thank you, thank you. I was super emo yesterday. so very sorry. I got laid off the thursday before that last OM contact so a little over a week ago, and I'm digging around for jobs. yesterday was just a little overwhelming. sick kids at home cuz can't put them in preschool when there isn't money, well, and they're sick....10.8 percent unemployment here staring me in the face, and a marriage to save. let's see...am I forgetting anything?

usually money stresses me out more than anything but right now it pales in comparison to the damage I've created at home.

Coho,

When you are down, do you know where to turn? You simply turn to your H. You go over and hug him, maybe kiss him. You simply take his hand and hold it and draw strength. He has the strength to help you, he doesn't even know how much strength he has, but he has enough so use it. You two are still a team.

There will be times when he needs your strength, but right now you need his. Go to him and just hold on.

God Bless,

JL

I know it sounds trite, but it will get better.

I was faced with all that you are right now only I was the BS....and a few years later EVERYTHING is right in our world.

Dig in, be brave and do it. You can...I KNOW it.

I wish my husband would do this everytime he feels low. I know that it would comfort me and hope that I could comfort him as welll.

He's the cuddly one - sometimes the traditional male/female roles are switched in this house.

it's so odd, having this deeply personal yet anonymous forum.

in the NW? like the recreation capital of the country. How about a hike in the bush for a weekend.

Having just the two of you in a primal setting without the world's distractions and day to day worries.

My wife and I set aside one week per year to hike the appalachian trail segment by segment. We hike about 150 miles in a week. This is where we bond and work together as a team. Also another excuse for couple time getaway.

Just a thought - going in the woods for a bit of time is good for your health and calms your mind.

Coho, where you live--wow--do I miss living there. We never ran out of things to do! I know you and Zen are different people and I've got the added issue of my H hating everything and everyone where we live now, so going in to poke around the city is met with resistance. But if we lived back in the PNW, we'd start negotiating from a strong base instead of a weak one.

I'll take the class at Sur La Table with you. I miss that store and the entire market area!

we've done hiking and camping and he does love those things, and I keep doing them because he loves them but I do not.

last night I asked ZW about his top 5 ENs and we went over how he would like those met. he wanted to ask about mine, but I really thought it was better to focus on him for the evening. one of his ENs is recreation time together as a couple - it's fairly high up there for him. so, I have to brainstorm how to do this. we've tried in the past and it has, at best, fizzled out, so I need to suck it up and try again. our personalities sometimes get in the way of these sorts of things - I'm a 'get in and get 'er done' sort of person and he's a 'slow and steady wins the race' sort of person...so, apply that to gardening/fishing/whathaveyou and we can clash a bit. I get irritated with his criticism and he probably gets irritated that I give up and all the other things that happen with that dynamic. sooooo....what to do. when we went out monday night, we saw a band we haven't seen in forever - this WWII era swing jazz band, and the requisite swing dancers. I'm notoriously difficult to lead dancing. I can do a mean Tina Turner or twist on my own - but throw someone in the mix trying to lead me? I turn into Urkel (sp?). I was thinking maybe dancing lessons. I would be forced to follow his lead, not be in control, we would be close and spend time together. it's an idea. it would require $$ and a babysitter, but it's an idea.

How about considering something you can do while hiking with him? Something that may appeal a bit more to you? For example, Photography, Bird-watching, Etc.

that is good. we've about killed the canon and I've been drooling over a new dlsr...

I'll suck it up and deal.

I just want you all to know that while right now I'm not responding to all of your posts, I AM reading every single one and re-reading and really thinking about everything said. many of you are so eloquent and the analogies are so helpful.

last night I asked ZW about his top 5 ENs and we went over how he would like those met. he wanted to ask about mine, but I really thought it was better to focus on him for the evening. one of his ENs is recreation time together as a couple - it's fairly high up there for him. so, I have to brainstorm how to do this. we've tried in the past and it has, at best, fizzled out, so I need to suck it up and try again. our personalities sometimes get in the way of these sorts of things - I'm a 'get in and get 'er done' sort of person and he's a 'slow and steady wins the race' sort of person...so, apply that to gardening/fishing/whathaveyou and we can clash a bit. I get irritated with his criticism and he probably gets irritated that I give up and all the other things that happen with that dynamic. sooooo....what to do. when we went out monday night, we saw a band we haven't seen in forever - this WWII era swing jazz band, and the requisite swing dancers. I'm notoriously difficult to lead dancing. I can do a mean Tina Turner or twist on my own - but throw someone in the mix trying to lead me? I turn into Urkel (sp?). I was thinking maybe dancing lessons. I would be forced to follow his lead, not be in control, we would be close and spend time together. it's an idea. it would require $$ and a babysitter, but it's an idea.

Maybe a Sur La Table class together. that would be good. Might be too chic-chic for him though.

anyway. just trying to think of things to meet his needs. the other top 2 & #4 are easier for me to meet. his needs for affection and admiration - I think I've done well at those for the most part. He certainly deserves much more respect than I have given him...and I'm still battling my resentment (which after reading so much, I feel I don't have a right to, but it's there).

so, that is where I'm at today. reading. thinking of solutions. more reading. job hunting in there somewhere.

and again, I can't express how thankful I am for the wisdom and support.

I've taken a SLT class and it's a blast. I think he'd like it too - and they have romantic couples nights....Uwajimaya also has cooking classes. that would be a blast. did you ever go to one of those while in the NW? Can't wait for farmers markets to open back up. the hillsdale one goes year-round, but it's still darn cold.

I want to make tamales this week - that will be good to do together as a family....I need to prep the masa today. one benefit of being laid off! tamales! it's easy to get fat in the PNW - any food you can imagine you can get.

he likes to bike....I wouldn't mind biking along waterfront. that would be an investment though. he already has a nice cannondale. doesn't thrill me, but I'd do it.

I don't know. I'm trying to get over the whole "he's such a pain in the [censored] to do anything with" feeling - because he's not, it's just I'm an a-hole and get frustrated with him. I'm staring at this website I'm supposed to build and I've put it off because I find him so hard to work with that I just want to throw up my hands and tell him to design it himself and I'll do the coding instead of trying to do any of the design myself. so, how do I re-look at everything and try, try again? I've got this page open on one monitor and that website on the other monitor, staring at me.

DD is playing harmonica and making it difficult to have any train of thought. ah, darling little monsters.

That is the tone for any negotiations of RC time, or really any other topic. It starts with "I want YOU in my life." You will be surprised how easy it is to start to find win-win if the main goal of the negotiation is "I want you in my life."

I bumped his old thread for you.

He was very different when he first came here.

"I'm not saying I didn't deserve what was said to me. ZW's feelings in this are very real and his perception is his reality in this. Me having 4 drinks in 5 hours doesn't quite tip my BAC over an unacceptable limit according to OLCC. ZW's perceptions about drinking and socializing are, in many opinions, a bit warped."

So was Zen telling us the truth when he said you got a DUI????

Okay, so sorry. I thought you were drinking and driving with the kids in the car. I must have gotten your story mixed up. Please forgive me.

Hey, Coho.

I don't have much time to write right now. And that's probably a good thing as I tend to go on and on and on...

But one thing I did of my own accord was I wrote hand-written letters to my H's family and our closest friends, apologizing for what I had done to my H, their brother/son/friend. Some I apologized to face-to-face, but those I knew I wouldn't see for a while and those who I wanted to make sure they heard me, I put a letter in the mail. An example of one of my first letters here:

Dear Friend,

I am so sorry for bringing so much pain to your friend, my husband. I had to tell him about my cheating and I can’t explain anything more to you. I’m sorry for disappointing you both. It’s killing me watching H go through this and I’m sure it’s hard for you as you hear him and see him experience my betrayal. He is understandably hurting and I thank you for being there for him. He needs support as he processes what I’ve done.

Thank you for being his friend before and through this horrible time. Please help take care of him.

===========

Doing this helped me, it helped our friends, and my H was appreciative after he heard about it from those who received the letters. It helped me understand what the people around us might be having to deal with and it helped me crack that very uncomfortable elephant that was certainly in the room. Me broaching the subject first and admitting my responsibility I think helped people feel okay about supporting our M -- seeing that I was truly remorseful and was not going to hide behind any excuses.

This is hard, isn't it.

Of course the problem with Coho doing this is that friends and family would likely wonder why it was wrong for her to cheat now...I mean, she and Zen didn't see it as wrong when they did it to Coho's first husband, so tell me, why is it wrong now? Because it was done to Zen? Because Zen is somehow more special than her first husband was?

[I'm sorry, I've kept quiet for a long time on this, but affairages coming here for help just sets my teeth on edge...

I have a 14 year old from a previous - I expect you'll find telling that I was married when I met BH.

I'm going to take up for ZW here ... THIS IS NOT AN AFFAIRAGE ... at least based on what we have been told so far.

Coho was seperated, but not technically divorced when ZW met her. Now technically, she was still M'd, but IMHO, this was not an AFFAIR. ZW played NO PART in breaking up Coho's 1st M.

Let's use a little perspective here.

The truly scary thing is that this is history repeating itself. I met my wife at the end of her marriage. Turns out, I helped her end it. Our first couple dates I didn't know she was married. Then it came out and she insisted that they were separated and the marriage was dead, blah blah (EXACTLY what she tells the OM!). I was hooked at that point so I ignored the brain and dove in head first. Now I'm on the other end. I owe that man an apology. I never viewed it as an affair until now.

Our relationship was pretty rocky at first because I was scared to death of what I was getting into and she was insanely needy. We eventually grew to have a very strong relationship with good communication. I think we beat the odds for affair relationships.

Anyway, none of this bodes well for me in this. I'm a pretty centered, compassionate person, but if this isn't the worst case of karmic revenge, I don't know what is. It also doesn't speak well for her ability to deal with unhappiness in her life, which I think is at the core of this.

let's get this clear, I have not been cheating (on either) all along - just when I decide I want out I move on.

Her ex does have custody of the her 14 year old son, and we do pay him child support. They were seperated, so, like I said, it is a matter of degrees, but I don't think defending it really goes over well here so we're not going to. She has paid and paid for her past but I don't think we're doomed to a miserable life because of it. We have apologized and been forgiven and we are all trying to do the best with the present. Our 3 and 4 year old children deserve the best shot we can give them, and I'll tell you that there are no better parents out there (until this horrible mess) than Coho and me. Believe me, our household is by FAR the more stable home. Her 14 year old would tell you as much. Her ex's home is pretty much non-stop chaos.

We can't really defend what we did, but for those willing to listen, we're sorry, it WAS a separation, but they were still married. We are trying to save this and we are a deserving family. If you have a different view of it, we understand, but please don't just try to tear us down.

For those who continue to help us, THANK YOU.

I will fight with everything I have to keep my family together.

I will fight with everything I have to keep my family together.

Her ex does have custody of the her 14 year old son, and we do pay him child support. They were seperated, so, like I said, it is a matter of degrees, but I don't think defending it really goes over well here so we're not going to. She has paid and paid for her past but I don't think we're doomed to a miserable life because of it. We have apologized and been forgiven and we are all trying to do the best with the present. Our 3 and 4 year old children deserve the best shot we can give them, and I'll tell you that there are no better parents out there (until this horrible mess) than Coho and me. Believe me, our household is by FAR the more stable home. Her 14 year old would tell you as much. Her ex's home is pretty much non-stop chaos.

We can't really defend what we did, but for those willing to listen, we're sorry, it WAS a separation, but they were still married. We are trying to save this and we are a deserving family. If you have a different view of it, we understand, but please don't just try to tear us down.

For those who continue to help us, THANK YOU.

I will fight with everything I have to keep my family together.

Of course the problem with Coho doing this is that friends and family would likely wonder why it was wrong for her to cheat now...I mean, she and Zen didn't see it as wrong when they did it to Coho's first husband, so tell me, why is it wrong now? Because it was done to Zen? Because Zen is somehow more special than her first husband was?

I'm sorry, I've kept quiet for a long time on this, but affairages coming here for help just sets my teeth on edge...The venue is, IMO, wrong...I realize that Steve and Dr. Harley do counsel people in affairages, but what they do not do is do it in front of VICTIMS of adultery...This "marriage" is the WORST nightmare of many, many BSs herein (As a matter of fact, I'm a FWS and it's a nightmare to me too)...IMHO, it is telling that Coho and Zen would come here for help...it speaks volumes about their lack of concern for OTHERS, which is what has landed them in the spot they are in currently...

Mrs. W

I'm going to take up for Mrs. W here...THIS IS AN AFFAIRAGE.

Here's Zen's exact words from a post 2/1/09



Now...this is not to say I don't feel sorry for Zen as it appears he was initially duped; however, he WAS an adult and he voluntarily drank from the lips of an adulterous woman. Even gave her his virginity out of wedlock (and I'm not judging him for this as I, too had pre-marital sex and suffered consequences therefrom). The consequences of his actions are his own and COMPLETELY PREDICTABLE.

I'd still like to see Zen and Coho at least offer Coho's first husband...the one SHE betrayed and Zen was at first dupped and then knowingly participated in destroying (Zen also in now deleted posts due to the MB upgrade indicated he NOW understood what Coho's first husband endured)...custody of the now 14 year old son. There are other options like just offering more visitation or voluntarily giving him back all or part of any child support he has to pay but I think custody would be best with Zen and Coho paying him child support. Coho had said she really liked her first husband's new wife and it's likely (alas it HAS TO BE) a much more stable home for such son to be living. Affairage households are ALWAYS crazy-making where everybody's individual happiness is paramount to right-wrong.

Good day,

Mr. Wondering

So Coho, hows it going. I hear you are "super cook"

I was wondering if you have written your EP's yet. If you need some idea's, Tst could post you his, and flick as well.

I know you read ZW's thread and I am sure you can hear his concern about your drinking. At this early stage of recovery, you need to be working on not only filling his EN's but also avoiding LBing him. Alcohol is a nice thing, and some of us can drink more than others. I personally can drink my DH under the table
However he doesnt like it, so I don't. Its a simple case of that Extrodinary Care thing we promise them when we say our vows.

ZW says that you agree recovery is worth more than drinking, so why not just stop for a while. Make a date you will not drink for or a drinking limit that you can POJA on.
Flick and my POJA is I will not open a second bottle of wine. Its fairly easy to remember On occasion we go thru alcohol free spells for a week or 2, usually after Christmas and the new years...we need to dry out and let our livers heal

Recovery is a tense time for couples, tip toe-ing around each other. Why make it unecessarily hard?

Coho,

lot's of opinions on this thread, I think all are valid, I was waiting for a post like Mrs Wondering's


I see alot of things in hear that remind me of my ww, such as the alcohol! It's so easy to say I will set a three drink limit, or sure there have been times when I have driven over .08, the fact is with most people I know who drink, and my WW is an alcoholic, not saying you are, however alcohol is a large problem for you and it needs to be gone. Thats it, no more. When people who drink speak the way you do, the drink means more than the relationship with the H.

One drink and you are not the same person, sure legal is .08, but one drink and you change. You may not see it, but you do.

You cannot deal with this M if you drink. So pick what you want, alcohol or working on a M that started out strained to begin with.

Her ex does have custody of the her 14 year old son, and we do pay him child support. They were seperated, so, like I said, it is a matter of degrees, but I don't think defending it really goes over well here so we're not going to. She has paid and paid for her past but I don't think we're doomed to a miserable life because of it. We have apologized and been forgiven and we are all trying to do the best with the present. Our 3 and 4 year old children deserve the best shot we can give them, and I'll tell you that there are no better parents out there (until this horrible mess) than Coho and me. Believe me, our household is by FAR the more stable home. Her 14 year old would tell you as much. Her ex's home is pretty much non-stop chaos.

We can't really defend what we did, but for those willing to listen, we're sorry, it WAS a separation, but they were still married. We are trying to save this and we are a deserving family. If you have a different view of it, we understand, but please don't just try to tear us down.

For those who continue to help us, THANK YOU.

I will fight with everything I have to keep my family together.

this was super helpful. thank you. we talked about this last night.

When two cheaters marry it will not work. And you're just saving face having these kids.

"See look we have kids we're in love aren't we lovely?"

Because you see, I fear that the message delivered to new FWSs by affair marriages being supported here is this: "What I did was only wrong because I didn't divorce my BS and marry OP. If I would have done THAT, then my affair would have been legit!" Clearly NOT a great take-home message...

what is funny is you're just having the opposite effect on me. I'm more stubborn now and will dig my heels in even more and fight even harder for ZW.

what is funny is you're just having the opposite effect on me. I'm more stubborn now and will dig my heels in even more and fight even harder for ZW.

To form opinions based on so very few facts and feel so good about judging and condemning - that's just sort of scary. We're still human and so are our children.

Next as part of the marriage ceremony we will have GPS chips inserted in the Bride and Groom (More so for the Brides)

I did look up EPs last night. I have another Harley appt. Thursday morning. being this is only my 2nd, I'm sure we'll have some talk on this. I do want to do all of these things, but in the timeline and with the help of Dr. H. while I respect and take everything to heart here, we have the resource of Dr. H himself and I would like to have his advisement as to my timeline of work. I have an outline for the next 3 steps and I don't think I should try to rush any recovery steps so will do them as he advises. that and we're paying the man, so I'd like to get our money's worth. ha. seriously, though, this hasn't fallen on deaf ears and I'm on it.

I've been trying to think of ways that I can verify my locations/actions until I go to work

:I've been trying to think of ways that I can verify my locations/actions until I go to work

IMNSHO this is awesome and showing ZW a real effort to make him feel safe...extrodinary care in action

I'm sure she's not going to read this anymore.

I humbly request advice. whatever it may be.

Some day i hope this fog lifts and you realize what you have lost. Right now you are probably reading this thinking, "they don't know me...I'm smarter than them...I'm in control." Blah, blah, blah, blah.

I'll add something else, lol, before the mods get me.

I hope your children hate you and you never get to their graduations or their weddings. You don't deserve that.

Would you like to see the pics of my DD's gorgeous wedding? My H and I were there as happy, proud, TOGETHER parents. Shame you'll miss that.

Oh, and I'm the FWW. Funny that. I knew where my happiness was and it wasn't with any stupid OM.

I have broken a wonderful man. the man I do truly love.

Sad. Sad to see people do things like this to someone that loves them, started a family with them, was there for them...even worked through many false recoveries for them.

It was right there for you Coho. Zen's love was right there for you to accept. And you blew it.

Some day i hope this fog lifts and you realize what you have lost. Right now you are probably reading this thinking, "they don't know me...I'm smarter than them...I'm in control." Blah, blah, blah, blah.

I'm saying a prayer for you tonight. And a prayer for Zen.

So would those GPS chips have done any good last night?

What were you thinking?

Oh, wait, waywards don't think...
they "feel."

Do you want ZW?

Or do you want your OM?

Make up your mind and act accordingly.

Of course if you choose OM you will lose your children, likely a big chunk of money....shall I go on?

I don't want to lose ZW. I want ZW. that is all I want.

I don't want to lose ZW. I want ZW. that is all I want.

Offer ZW a Post-Nuptial Agreement, whereby if ZW will take you back and give you a chance ... should you break NC with this OM or start an A with another OM, you will waive right to custody of your joint children, AND walk away from the M with ONLY your personal belongings.

Would you sign such a Post-Nup???

I don't want to lose ZW. I want ZW. that is all I want.

I have broken a wonderful man.

Personally, I think that Coho WAS drinking when she slipped. And I think THAT is the problem, although no one here seems to agree.

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

We are all imperfect sinners in need of redemption. If ZW still wants to try to save this marriage and Coho shows that she seriously wants to prove herself able to be a faithful spouse....who are we to say that shouldn't be attempted...again? How many times were we told to forgive?...seventy times sever....etc etc...

It took my FWH several attempts to get it right. I have to believe that Coho is still capable of redeeming herself. If she can, then an intact family is in the best interest for the kids.

OK ... "Talk's cheap, but it takes money to buy whiskey" ... are your ready to put your money (and kids) where your mouth is???

In exchange for this "one last chance", would you ...

Offer ZW a Post-Nuptial Agreement, whereby if ZW will take you back and give you a chance ... should you break NC with this OM or start an A with another OM, you will waive right to custody of your joint children, AND walk away from the M with ONLY your personal belongings.

Would you sign such a Post-Nup???

I don't want to lose ZW. I want ZW. that is all I want.

ZW is taking the kids 3 hours away on saturday. I work saturday night so can not go. This, I feel, is a huge leap of trust on his part. ZW has suggested that I take a day for myself and go window shopping. isn't that the sweetest? I've been trying to think of ways that I can verify my locations/actions until I go to work. I probably won't leave the house much if at all, but if I do, do you think texting is enough? I can take photos of myself and send them too....although sorta dorky while in a store. ha. I'm sure I"ll pop on here for a bit, but just wanted to know (Flick?) what others have done.

She told ZW that she was sober when she was with the OM.

She planned to be with the OM on his birthday.
She could have stopped.
She hung out with the OM
she could have stopped.
She got in her car and drove to his place.
Zen Wolf called her at 11:00
She could have stopped.
When she got to his place she went inside.
She could have stopped.
She went to the OMs bedroom.
She could have stopped.
She/he took her clothes off
She could have stopped.
Her husband Called her at 3:00
She lied to him about where she was.
She could have stopped.
She got into bed with the OM
She could have stopped.
They had sex.


At every point she had the ability to not go through with it.
She knew at every turn, what this would do to the husband that loves her. She knew this would drive a stake through his heart. And when they were having sex, she thought to herself.

"I will just ask Zen Wolf for another chance."

KiwiJ, wouldn't you say that every word of your posts could be applied to you during your own false recovery? Which was every bit as public as this one? You defended breaking NC on this board -- in fact refused to come clean, to the point that another poster had to be the one to tell your poor husband. I'm very glad that your husband gave you a second (third? fourth?) chance, but you no more deserved it than coho does ... though I will say that the fog with this one is very, very thick, and her behavior has been extremely cruel.

I have serious doubts about coho, too, but this post in particular was just way over the top, IMO. There are many WS's on this board that have behaved perfectly abominably and still recovered. Like, for example, you.

OK ... "Talk's cheap, but it takes money to buy whiskey" ... are your ready to put your money (and kids) where your mouth is???

In exchange for this "one last chance", would you ...

Offer ZW a Post-Nuptial Agreement, whereby if ZW will take you back and give you a chance ... should you break NC with this OM or start an A with another OM, you will waive right to custody of your joint children, AND walk away from the M with ONLY your personal belongings.

Would you sign such a Post-Nup???

How many of us have a WS that could have and should have stopped but didn't? I feel badly for Zen Wolf. I can't imagine going through the pain of discovery over and over again. I hope I don't have to. It is his decision though. Only he knows how many times he is willing to get back up. Only time will tell if Coho wants the marriage. It is just so painful to imagine what she is doing to him. I wonder how she justifies it... But, I have wondered how my own husband justified it and have no answer for that either. I am just happy that he appears to want our marriage now and seems to be willing to work on it with me.

absolutely. where did you get it? one online that we can have notarized? link please?


Best question on this thread!

With all the negative chatter.... it runs the risk of getting lost.

Coho, What say you?

When I was asked this question, I told my wife YES.
I also followed through with it ASAP!

So, what say you??

Let me try and get some of this straight.

You have been boinking the OM all this time or just in contact?

Also ZW read your secret email account...did you give him access? and the talk about marriage was that recent???

All you want is ZW? Is that all you wanted when you were having sex with the OM?

You are a pathological lier and do not deserve ZW. Give him everything and leave him alone.

I'm not in control. I have no ego. I have no pride.

and the talk about marriage was that recent???

I'm not in control.

I have no pride.

That's a laugh.

Coho,

Can you please tell me/us?

1. Why did you do it? And please don't say "I don't know, it was stupid" etc. etc. I mean really, why?

Because I was still in contact and wasn't letting go of those feelings

2. What were you thinking, and please no, "I wasn't thinking." I mean did you have any thoughts about ZW when you were in the act of coitus?

I was confused and felt like giving up and was not being honest with myself or ZW or anyone.

3. Why should ZW beleive you really want him and only him, and please no, "I don't know; he shouldn't, I am not credible."

I don't expect him to but I will do what it takes and will keep doing it until I'm 6 ft under.

The pat answers are what I would expect, and they are a ploy for sympathy and an avoidance manuever. I mean, can you really answer the above honestly?

yes, in an instant.

I just downloaded a GPS tracker to my iPhone.

I talked to Harley this morning.

I'll be downloading spectorsoft shortly.

Coho,

He should still send you away till you "get it"...

Give him everything and try to earn it all back. I did just offer to stay out at my mother's house. he has that option

Only unconditional surrender should be accepted now.

WHILE you were here talking af how to make ZW feel safe again you were PLANNING to betray him AGAIN with OM!

NOTHING you say should be believed. ONLY your ACTIONS count! What are you going to DO? I have called his mother, father, brother and some key friends and apologized. I have set up a GPS on my iPhone - I just went outside to initialize where I am at. I will turn it on whenever in the car, call him while in the car and talk to him, and communicate as much as I can while at work. I will install spector software as recommended by Harley. We have another call on Wednesday.

A hundred years or so ago ZW could have shot you on the spot and nobody would have batted an eye!

Mark

I just downloaded a GPS tracker to my iPhone.

I talked to Harley this morning.

I'll be downloading spectorsoft shortly. [b/]

How on earth does "I was still in contact" answer the question WHY you did it? The WHY question is about why you lied to your husband. Saying that you lied to your husband is not answering the question, it is just repeating the question. We know that you lied.

Similarly, "I wasn't letting go of my feelings" is another blinding flash of the obvious. We know that you weren't willing to put your selfish feelings aside for even a second. The question is, WHY did you do this?

ZW was asked about a week ago what his biggest need from you was. Can you answer this in a thoughtful way?

"I WANT TO KNOW WHY THIS WILL BE DIFFERENT. Top question. Question number ONE."

I did it because I was being selfish and only caring about me.

It's different because I'm willing to put my a$$ on the line - regardless of whether or not ZW does give me a chance or not. Any stupid prideful BS I had is not part of me anymore.

Glib.

Hi Coho,
welcome back to MB. I don't know exactly what will happen from this point, but that took some courage You made a comment once about being happy that you had not been given as hard time as Flick, guess you know what that feels like now huh? It is a shame you did this, it will make things harder for you now, but all can be overcome, with work.

So, a couple of things... firstly please email me at the addy in my sigline. I am not going to shout at you or beat you over the head, I want to extend a hand of friendship. If it helps, I talk to Kiwijen and looking4 (FWW) offlist and they do not appear to have been traumatised by it
I also have been asked to forward info to you and Zen.

Secondly, I admit I havent been on for a couple of hours so forgive me if you have already answred this (I will look back over after posting this) how are we going to protect Zen and Coho from self destructing Coho? Its a real question and one I asked Flick alot after our FR. I see you have given Zen the passowrds to the secret email, thats a start.

If you would like me to butt out since you now have so many others posting to you, thats okay, I understand

Secondly, I admit I havent been on for a couple of hours so forgive me if you have already answred this (I will look back over after posting this) how are we going to protect Zen and Coho from self destructing Coho? Its a real question and one I asked Flick alot after our FR. I see you have given Zen the passowrds to the secret email, thats a start.

no, I am sorry. I am not at all trying to be glib. I don't have it in me to be glib.

Thank you.

Please answer this question:

Thank you for replying.

These steps are great. If you are serious then you need to call out to Tst, Lousy golfer, melody lane who are great, hard hitting but awakening of wayward people.
They will have hard words to say BUT it is stuff you need to have hit home right now. Going back to OM really is a very callous thing, particulary when you did seem to be 'getting it' So alot of people will yell and scream and 2x4 you. Listen to what they say, accept the truth, ignore the false.

As far as leaving. I do not know. I see people saying you should go. How strong are you right now? Right now? F@#cking Goliath. Can you resist OM? I will do anything and everything for the ONLY love of my life, ZW. I will call my mom, I will call his mom and I will call my MIL to lean on. that is it. Do you believe in the addictive nature of A's? Like you wouldn't believe. Do you realise how difficult withdrawl is? I do believe it and I will lean on family. Personally I wanted Flick to be home with me even when i didnt like him because at least I knew were he was. You need to ask Zen.

He is who you have to make right with.

This makes me sick. Too sick to even read anymore.

I have given log in/password to email account.
I have given log in/password to our cell account to see full phone records
I have downloaded GPS tracking to my iPhone
I have called friends and family to apologize
I have talked to Harley this AM and ZW will on Wednesday

Should I just leave? should I go out to my mom's? people seem to be saying I should just do that on my own, but, really? doesn't Harley say to stay close?

I'll sign a post-nup - I'm sure Adam's dad will have someone draw one up shortly.

I did another NC with ZW - we drove to OM's condo and taped it to the door with OM's key.

I'm so scared I really, really broke him. I feel so horrible. Just horrible. I love ZW and want only ZW.

my call with Harley this morning was to set up strategy so that I have a plan to have hope in and to carry on and fight and keep from going down this path again.

I would not blame ZW for divorcing me. I deserve that.

It's different because I'm willing to put my a$$ on the line - regardless of whether or not ZW does give me a chance or not. Any stupid prideful BS I had is not part of me anymore.It's different because I'm willing to put my a$$ on the line - regardless of whether or not ZW does give me a chance or not. Any stupid prideful BS I had is not part of me anymore.

These steps are great. If you are serious then you need to call out to Tst, Lousy golfer, melody lane who are great, hard hitting but awakening of wayward people.

I have given log in/password to email account.
I have given log in/password to our cell account to see full phone records
I have downloaded GPS tracking to my iPhone
I have called friends and family to apologize
I have talked to Harley this AM and ZW will on Wednesday

It's different because I'm willing to put my a$$ on the line - regardless of whether or not ZW does give me a chance or not. Any stupid prideful BS I had is not part of me anymore.

I have given log in/password to email account.
I have given log in/password to our cell account to see full phone records
I have downloaded GPS tracking to my iPhone
I have called friends and family to apologize
I have talked to Harley this AM and ZW will on Wednesday

When the 'dumb answers' thread was started, I had trouble restricting myself to two posts. There were about 137 dumb answers I could have dropped in right away. I notice the thread is still growing healthily, so clearly 'fog' is a universal mirth-maker.

I was also struck by Kat's thread on how tough it must be to be the deliverer of the dumb answer, the one deep in fog.

So yesterday, during an interminable technical seminar and a long motorway journey, I found myslef wondering just how WS's get into that situation. My own H has described his own situation to me very clearly, and I've generated my own homespun psychology to explain it. I suppose I'm still at the stage where I'm trying to make sense of everything.

So the following is a personal slant on what I think goes on in the mind of affair partners, and how I think the fog works. It's talking about the 'soulmate' kind of affair - I think fling-type affairs follow different paths. I'd find it useful to know if it matches with others' experiences.

And it's LONG.

To begin with, I believe that 'fog' is a distorted reality.

‘Reality’ for each of us, consists principally of two things – our ‘life model’, and our value system.

The ‘life model’ is the picture we have in our head of how the world works, how people interact with each other. As with an engineering model, we feed possibilities into it and come up with predictions. The accuracy of the model is dependent on many things – how good a starter pack our parents gave us, how detailed we’ve made the model, how much we’ve tested it by running sample data through. Some people have highly accurate models and are considered ‘shrewd’, and some have poor predictive powers and are thought naive. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle.

Our values system is what we use to guide us through life. It’s the set of rules and restrictions and codes that we innately believe will give us the best chance in life. It can be a narrow set – “what’s best for ME”, can revolve around the family, or can be very broad – “what’s in the best interests of the community (town, nation, world)?”

Some of our values are personal – we’ve learned hard lessons from our own experience. – “Don’t steal, or you’ll get a record.’ Some we’ve unconsciously absorbed from our parents – “It’s wrong to steal”. Some we adopt to fit in with peer group ideals – “Her son was done for burglary, isn’t it awful?”.

When we engage with a life-partner, we usually pick someone with a similar values system to our own, and we work hard to bring those systems together. This is not lovey-dovey stuff - it’s innately practical. If we are both bound by the same restrictions and drivers, we are likely to support and reinforce each other. We will be able to ‘trust’ – to confidently predict the other’s actions and opinions – and will therefore have a solid platform on which to base our life.

Our values system is based implicitly on our life model, and it works by reward and punishment. If we conform to our values, we build self-esteem and feel good about ourselves. If we violate our values, we feel discomfort. We attempt to get away from the discomfort by a) confessing and apologising, ie reconforming to values, or b) stuffing the discomfort down, or c) altering the values system so that we don’t appear to have breached it.

When an affair begins, there is usually huge temptation involved – for whatever reason. The temptation overwhelms the values system – when the WS says “I didn’t think…” , that’s exactly right. The normal mental mechanisms were not in play, largely because the life model was not sophisticated or accurate enough to detect what was happening nor predict the likely consequences, or because an intensity of resentment or anger caused normal mechanisms to be deliberately ignored. There is a ‘fantasy leap’, almost like a leap of religious faith. This leap says ‘ I want some fun / excitement / attention. I deserve that. I believe that this will make me feel better, and I believe I can control it, and get what I want out of it.”

The ‘denial’ mechanism can’t operate for long – the values system is too powerful for that. But by the time the underlying values system kicks in, the two affair partners have usually got themselves in sufficiently deep for there to be painful drawbacks in pulling out, and significant benefits in staying in. Excitement and pleasure oppose pain and discomfort.

For most people, an affair is a serious violation of their values system, so that sooner or later, the intense discomfort of values-betrayal is felt. This is heavy-duty pain, the kind that the WS is keen to escape from, like appendicitis. So how do they escape that pain? See above. They could a) confess – but of course it’s not something trivial they’d be confessing, so forget that, b) stuff the discomfort down, or c) alter the values system.

I suspect that most WS’s begin by trying to stuff the pain. But it’s too big – like getting an elephant into a suitcase. So there is really only one way to go. The values system has to change. It seems likely that the WS moves rapidly away from such intense pain – perhaps so quickly that its presence is not even noticed.

So the WS’s position metamorphoses:

1) It’s wrong to have an affair.
2) Friendship is not an affair.
3) Affairs are only wrong if they threaten the marriage. This is a friendship-with-sex and does not threaten the marriage.
4) The outside relationship ‘brightens’ me, and is therefore good for the marriage.
5) Other people are inexperienced. They don’t understand the power of a passionate friendship, and how enriching it is.
6) This affair is not wrong. In fact, I could not live without it.

The process is driven, I suspect, by a factor which none of the literature seems to comment on much – the fact that TWO people are involved.

Both affair partners are having to alter their values systems to accommodate what they’re doing. This feels uncomfortable, so they look to each other for confirmation that they’re justified in acting as they are. Neither wants to believe that they’re involved with someone whose values system is easily changed – that would be weak - so they must each work hard to convince each other that they are good, that their values are altering only because they are ‘growing’, becoming too complex and sophisticated / visceral / emotionally liberated for the old realities as personified by their spouses. They therefore reinforce each other, generating a self-perpetuating cycle that builds like a fire in heavy winds.

In addition, the same values-converging process that happened with the marital partners operates on the affair partners. Ironically, there is a strong need for security, perhaps to replace the dwindling security that the marriage is likely to provide (if the affair is exposed). The affair partners therefore work to keep each other ‘in’ the relationship by escalating involvement and increasing the other’s personal investment.

The desperate need to believe in the security of the relationship, in its ability to support and nurture, in its essential goodness, leads to what looks from the outside to be reckless behaviour. There is a mutual denial of the dangers of STDs or pregnancy.

By this time, the WS’s values systems are a LONG way from where they began.

Think back to what a values system is. It’s a set of beliefs based on a life model – the most realistic picture an individual can generate of how the world works. To support the altered values system, there has to be an altered life model (the one that says, eg, affairs won’t hurt my family).

The problem with the altered life model is that it’s not realistic. It starts from a premise that’s innately flawed – that it is OK for this individual to have this affair. The flaw distorts all logic.

Imagine that you postulated a theory that air would support your weight if there was enough of it under you, ie if you got high enough above the ground. Obviously, water supports large ships under a similar theory, so it’s a reasonable conjecture. The theory would look OK as long as you didn’t have to personally prove it. We can see that skydivers don’t appear to conform to the principle, but perhaps that’s just because they don’t get high enough?

Once you’re working to this theory, it becomes obvious that planes are a rather naïve concept. All that going-fast when all they have to do is climb up to the level where they’re supported by air molecules! The notion that satellites have to orbit at high speed is also clearly daft – at that height the trouble would be getting them down!

The affair partners are now operating far above safe oxygen levels. But to them, everything makes perfect sense.

This is ‘fog’.

The flawed model is a poor predictor. It fails as soon as it’s put to a real-world test. In fact, it fails all the time. In truth, it fails so frequently that the affairees must exert colossal energy just to keep themselves in the suspension of disbelief. And the self-delusion may eventually be exposed by real-world reactions that cannot easily be denied or ignored – the anguish of children, the disappointment on a mother’s face, the lash of a lawyer’s letter.

So what’s happening to the marriage, while all of this is going on?

To begin with, the WS moves between the two realities with a sense of excitement. It’s an escape. But, as the two realities diverge, there is increasing discomfort at the difficulty of bridging the two, of making the transition between them. To counter this, and because the affair is where the excitement is, a sense of anger, indignation and self-righteousness develops that the WS is ‘having’ to lie and deceive. If only the BS’s could be sophisticated enough to understand the benefits of the arrangement! If the BS’s were not so selfish, they would be glad that the WS’s are happy! It is infuriating that the stupid, inflexible BS’s would inevitably whinge and complain and wreck the perfect love of two people who were destined for each other…

There is no counter-balancing argument from the BS, because the BS does not know what is going on. But the likelihood is that the spouse has an instinctive awareness that something is wrong, and is becoming defensive and confrontational. The marriage is becoming an uncomfortable environment.

So the WS has now manoeuvred themselves into a position where the only source of acceptance and pleasure is with the OP. The WS inevitably moves further away from the marriage.

The affair usually loses its flavour, as the affairees begin to know each other and recognise that the affair partner is far from an improvement on the marital partner, and that the effort involved is no longer justified by the benefits. But as the emotional bond weakens, the two affairees may perversely cling to each other even more tightly, though not always at the same time. There is probably a bond of friendship, hopelessly complicated by the sexual connection and conspiracy to bteray.

By now they are in a position where exposure of the affair seems likely to end the two marriages anyway. The marriages are now so tarnished – the WS’s have moved so far away from the original values systems still supported by their spouses – that the affair, for all its misery, is now a more likely candidate for the future than the marriage. Both WS’s are locked in a death-spiral – each is terrified that the affair partner will leave the affair to recover the marriage, leaving one WS abandoned and hopeless. And at least one WS may be trapped by the terror of having to establish permanence with the affair partner, or be alone.

So what about the ‘fog’? The WS is moving between two realities; he or she is effectively two people. There is a ‘flickering’ effect, like moving between perceptions in a magic-eye picture. Sometimes WS#2 flickers into life in Reality #1. If the bad reception makes it difficult for the BS to ‘see’ the wayward spouse, the discontinuity makes it impossible for the WS to ‘see’ the old reality clearly too. WS convinces themselves that all is unchanged and well in the old life. They may even become angry if the BS is liberal with the old value system. It is necessary for the BS to be predictable via a well-understood parcel of values, in order for the WS’s deceit to work. There may also be a need, unacknowledged, for the BS to act as keeper-of-the-flame, to vicariously hold to what the WS has lost, to be a solid platform to return to.

And then comes dday, and the clash of matter and anti-matter, as the two realities meet. For the first time, the WS is presented with penetrating questions about the logic of the affair’s life-model. For the first time, the illogicality of the affair’s premise is exposed. The WS must defend the affair, or appear hilariously stupid. Defending the affair with dodgy logic has been the option for the life of the affair; the dodgy logic has been vigorously supported by the OP, so that the WS has had no practice in providing a reasonable defence. Small wonder that the WS feels threatened and humiliated and hits back. Small wonder that the arguments are so feeble – the same feeble arguments have been applauded as sage wisdom for so long, the WS is profoundly indignant at being challenged in any way. At this point, the WS provides us with all of those witty sayings that we howl at on the ‘dumb answer’threads.

At this point, the WS can head off in one of several directions. They might retreat permanently. They might reluctantly acknowledge that some of the logic was flawed, and move slowly back into the old values system. They might recognise immediately the mistake they have made, and set about with energy and determination to fix the mess they have created. Or they might settle for a fortress mentality and stubbornly defend what they’ve done, in unconscious fear that being wrong means being annihilated.

There seem to be lots of each WS type here on this board.

Sorry, but Melodylane is puking.

Sorry, but Melodylane is puking.

This is the way of life in an affairage. It is very unfortunate that Zen used such tragic bad judgment

but given how slick and glib Coho is with words, I wouldn't doubt that she was still *with* the first husband and selling Zen a bill of goods in order to lead him on.

Any stupid prideful BS I had is not part of me anymore.

Wow! You can turn that part of yourself off that easily??? Why did you wait until now?

You are disgusting to do this to your husband. Stop the lying.

I'm not sure what good a polygraph would be at this stage. I think ZW has enough info to go forward.