Of course you can. Ultimately, this is what a forum is for - an exchange of ideas, opinions, observations, and feelings. For everyone. We've been listening to Zen pour his heart out for ages now. And tried to help him stay the course with you. Not knowing you.

Now that you're posting, and we have something of your side to ponder, I'm still waiting to hear anything from you that even suggests you have feelings for this guy. I'm sure it's your fog speaking, but good grief - I'm here, because it's the life I have? I'm stuck with this schlub cos he's the one I chose to have kids with?

Frankly, I'm surprised people are being so generous with their words to you. I've seen many WS's come here and just get hammered for their self-absorption.

coho, I'll give you a big clue that it takes many people (including me) a LONG time to understand when they come here. When something hurts that a poster says, it is usually because whatever they said is closer to the truth than you are willing or ready to deal with. Else, why would it hurt?

Therein lies your ability to take that knowledge, and wrestle with it. Why does it hurt? Because it just may be true? Because it's so far from true that you must be doing a poor job of communicating your feelings and we're misunderstanding? Or somewhere in between?

If you truly want to accomplish anything by coming here - help Zen, help yourself, fix your marriage, atone for your mistakes, raise healthier kids...you have to be willing to hear what we say critically and honestly.

So far, I don't read that in your posts. That's all I'm saying. From here, it just looks like you're going through the motions.

Trust me when I say that you aren’t the first WS to come here and get beat up. If you go back and read Mrs W's early posts or the first few posts by LaLa (Resonance) you will see that what you are being told was what they were told too.

But what has to be considered by any WS who comes here with the stated goal of saving the marriage and rebuilding it into one in which both BS and WS learn from the mistakes of the past and create a life-long relationship that is honoring and caring toward each other has to deal with one very important issue. That issue is that it was the WS who broke the vows of marriage and chose to go outside of the marriage to get personal satisfaction. The way that personal satisfaction was achieved is irrelevant. Cheating is never a justifiable option when you are married.

It isn’t just the act of cheating that you have to come to grips with. It is the notion that there was anything at all, no matter how huge or how trivial in your own mind that made that choice viable to you that you must figure out. Any apology that begins with “I’m sorry, but…” is not an apology at all.

To repent does not mean simply changing the way we act. It means to change the way we think. Real repentance comes from thinking differently and because of that difference in thinking our actions change from that new way of thinking. The sign of that type of repentance is earmarked by the idea of “Whatever I have to do from this day forward…” That is the kind of repentance that earns the stripes to turn a WS into a FWS. Until that stage is reached means only that the WS is a WS not actively engaged in cheating.

You wonder what you can do to make it up to ZW. Nothing ever will. There are no Mulligans on this front. You wonder when he will ever trust you like he once did. The answer is that he never will because he was a fool to trust you implicitly to begin with. That is something HE must learn from this. You worry about what ZW wants from you. The answer is that HE gets to decide what that will be.

It is absolutely true that there are things that ZW needs to do in order to make your marriage a great one and not the old yucky one that resulted in you going outside for fulfillment of your ENs, but first the fact that you DID go outside to get your ENs met must be dealt with. The fact that you have recently had contact again means that you are not yet over the affair. It will take ZW much longer to get over than it will you but until YOU are over it and done with it and no longer consider it anything but the most heinous of things you could ever have done to anyone, he stands no chance of recovering. It will only be later that you can work on communication skills, establishing a way to negotiate with each other that does not deplete each others LB$ and actually reach a point where the affair is no longer the primary focus of your attention.

Mark

Nicely said Mark.

JL

Coho: Remember, wear your hard-hat when posting and reading. You are going to get 2x4's up against your head for a while...and deservedly so. Defensive, angry, hurt...yep, you should be feeling that right about now. What probably irks people is that you aren't feeling remorseful and regretful that you had an affair...AND hooked up with the OM last weekend.

When betrayed spouses come here people often say they are sorry to see them here. And ask them to take their time making any decisions about the marriage right now.

Remember, you have hurt Zen to the core of his being. I know, I've been there TWICE! The pain is unimaginable. The hurt, the broken trust...all from a person he pledged to spend the rest of his life with. You've got to understand that we are naturally going to come to his defense here. But also understand that this site isn't called "divorce builders" it's called "marriage builders."

People are trying to HELP you! People are banging you in the head because you need a good wack to your brain. We aren't doing this just to be mean. We aren't doing this to get revenge. Heck, if we were really vengevul we would have told Zen to head right to Plan D! But people aren't saying that right now. People are trying to understand your thoughts, trying to be helpful. Trying to assist your marriage. Listen, learn, read, tear down your defenses and open up your mind and heart. Really dig in to this stuff and look at your life. Look at your self.

What you have done is incredibly selfish (affair), what you need to do is get your head on straight and get as far away from the OM as possible. And read these replies. Read what JLearning is saying, and DO IT!

thanks JL and DNU1 and Cat...

just having an emotionally down day.

need a breather. or a batting cage. or a bikram yoga class. I'll settle for some time....I'm reading, re-reading. today was a day of crying which is few and far between for me.

I'll suck it up and deal.

So much in life requires us to do just this. Warm thoughts...

Coho,

When you are down, do you know where to turn? You simply turn to your H. You go over and hug him, maybe kiss him. You simply take his hand and hold it and draw strength. He has the strength to help you, he doesn't even know how much strength he has, but he has enough so use it. You two are still a team.

There will be times when he needs your strength, but right now you need his. Go to him and just hold on.

God Bless,

JL

Wow! Powerful words JL! Bang...right in the face...hits home! My kiddos and the 7 week old pooch were driving me nuckin-futs this morning (wife on call last night...stayed at hospital...home around 7:30 AM) New pup not sleeping much = me not sleeping much. Grumpy. Kids not listening. Pup running around. Wife walks in door, takes one look at me and gives me HUGE HUG! Just what I needed!

Open up to Zen, coho. Tear down those walls. I know it's scary, but the more you open up the better things will be. I'm sure there is a feeling that if you hide things from him you are protecting him from pain. Don't do it. Be completely transparent. Tell him EVERYTHING! Open up and he will open up to you...and your relationship will grow to a level it has never seen before.

thank you, thank you, thank you. I was super emo yesterday. so very sorry. I got laid off the thursday before that last OM contact so a little over a week ago, and I'm digging around for jobs. yesterday was just a little overwhelming. sick kids at home cuz can't put them in preschool when there isn't money, well, and they're sick....10.8 percent unemployment here staring me in the face, and a marriage to save. let's see...am I forgetting anything?

usually money stresses me out more than anything but right now it pales in comparison to the damage I've created at home.

I know it sounds trite, but it will get better.

I was faced with all that you are right now only I was the BS....and a few years later EVERYTHING is right in our world.

Dig in, be brave and do it. You can...I KNOW it.

why am I still so angry and resentful towards ZW sometimes?

FBH here:

Its these times that you realize and need to circle the wagons with your family. You are a wife and a mother and you know now that you need to get on the team. In the large scheme of things - nobody in this world cares about you other than family. There will good days and bad days - hang in there. Your emotions will be like a rollercoaster.

I feel like an a-hole. well, I mean, of course I should, but in addition to that, feeling down makes me feel more like one. anyway.

we're discussing easter weekend. that is good.

I wish my husband would do this everytime he feels low. I know that it would comfort me and hope that I could comfort him as welll.

I read your story today. I'm continually shocked and appalled at the stories on this board. but then, I get to look in the mirror. I catch myself thinking, my - at least it isn't that bad. but then I remember, a death is a death is a death.

it's so odd, having this deeply personal yet anonymous forum.

I am incredibly lucky to have a very sensitive and affectionate husband that reaches out to me and comforts me when I'm down. He's the cuddly one - sometimes the traditional male/female roles are switched in this house.

Coho,

you said
Sometimes that is not a bad thing.

But, one thing you should realize it is taking a lot of strength on his part to remain. I thinks it will be worth it. I suspect he is right. What do you think?

Hope your day is going better.

God Bless,

JL

Coho:

Your quote:


Yes, isn't it? You have been reading. Searching here and there for info, for threads the bring you... what? Comfort? Peace? Analysis?

There is a fence that runs through this place. The BS/WS fence. What you discover, is that there is a path on both sides of that fence, and each side MUST walk it side until they get to a gate. One can stand at the gate and decide to walk thru and investigate what is on the other side. Or one can ponder the gate, and then move along until another gate appears.

It seems you are opening the gate. And looking around. You can see the path that ZW must walk. You learn this by reading the threads of the other BS's that have trod that path. You see much about yourself and your actions in these stories. Yes, you can rank them, that WS was WORSE than me, or I did more than that one in this BS's story. Your story, no matter how similar to others, is uniquely ZW's and CS's.

Your not ready to join ZW on that side of the gate. You may be soon, you might have some more traveling to do on your side. There are more gates. There is more time to step through.

The fence isn't solid. ZW can see you through it. You can see him. You just see him clearer now.

What you will realize, is that it's you that has to change. In fundamental ways. Your short, snarky answers to things? Doesn't mean that you can't have fun and be happy with others, but you will change that. This place WILL make you more reflective. The information here is so applicable to so many facets of your life that it will make a world of difference in how you approach others in daily activities.

The fence never totally disappears. A wayward mentality is difficult to shake, and to truly get rid of it, your posts and outlook on many things will have evolved to something better. The person I was three years ago is nothing like the person I am now. Do I see the fence around here? No. You will see it disappear as you travel on your side. But you have to do the travel.

And reading about the path on the other side is an excellent way to speed your journey.

(((CS)))

LG

I just want you all to know that while right now I'm not responding to all of your posts, I AM reading every single one and re-reading and really thinking about everything said. many of you are so eloquent and the analogies are so helpful.

last night I asked ZW about his top 5 ENs and we went over how he would like those met. he wanted to ask about mine, but I really thought it was better to focus on him for the evening. one of his ENs is recreation time together as a couple - it's fairly high up there for him. so, I have to brainstorm how to do this. we've tried in the past and it has, at best, fizzled out, so I need to suck it up and try again. our personalities sometimes get in the way of these sorts of things - I'm a 'get in and get 'er done' sort of person and he's a 'slow and steady wins the race' sort of person...so, apply that to gardening/fishing/whathaveyou and we can clash a bit. I get irritated with his criticism and he probably gets irritated that I give up and all the other things that happen with that dynamic. sooooo....what to do. when we went out monday night, we saw a band we haven't seen in forever - this WWII era swing jazz band, and the requisite swing dancers. I'm notoriously difficult to lead dancing. I can do a mean Tina Turner or twist on my own - but throw someone in the mix trying to lead me? I turn into Urkel (sp?). I was thinking maybe dancing lessons. I would be forced to follow his lead, not be in control, we would be close and spend time together. it's an idea. it would require $$ and a babysitter, but it's an idea.

Maybe a Sur La Table class together. that would be good. Might be too chic-chic for him though.

anyway. just trying to think of things to meet his needs. the other top 2 & #4 are easier for me to meet. his needs for affection and admiration - I think I've done well at those for the most part. He certainly deserves much more respect than I have given him...and I'm still battling my resentment (which after reading so much, I feel I don't have a right to, but it's there).

so, that is where I'm at today. reading. thinking of solutions. more reading. job hunting in there somewhere.

and again, I can't express how thankful I am for the wisdom and support.

in the NW? like the recreation capital of the country. How about a hike in the bush for a weekend.

Having just the two of you in a primal setting without the world's distractions and day to day worries.

My wife and I set aside one week per year to hike the appalachian trail segment by segment. We hike about 150 miles in a week. This is where we bond and work together as a team. Also another excuse for couple time getaway.

Just a thought - going in the woods for a bit of time is good for your health and calms your mind.