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I will fight with everything I have to keep my family together. Okay, I'm just surprised at your choice of venue to do so...GQII...A place where people are fighting tooth and nail to PREVENT the exact kind of relationship that you are in... Imagine for a moment that Coho's first husband had been an MB member who came here to try and save his marriage to her...He got support and yet the marriage still ended and Coho married, YOU, her OM...Now here come you and Coho years later...Is it reasonable to expect those same people to help you save your affairage?  Can you see how your presence here is offensive to many? How can we tell hurting BSs that affairs end and help them expose, all while giving you advice on how to save your affair? Seems pretty incongruent, no? I have no doubt that you guys will continuing posting here though...As I said before, not considering others is what has landed the two of you in your current predictament...  Good luck... Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Mrs.W,
I think you are out of line for 2 reasons ...
1st, you can view this in black & white terms if you so choose, but from my perspective, this is a very gray area, and is not a clear cut affairage. I for one accept ZW's account and the humbleness he has displayed.
2nd ... and more importantly ... as a FWS, you don't have "standing" to be speaking for any BS who may read this thread and interpret it differently.
As a BH, I take no offense to ZW posting here and seeking help with his situation. I see him as someone who made a mistake in judgment after originally being misled ... recognized it ... owned it ... and apologized for it.
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Being this is my thread, and ZW's and my relationship, may I respectfully ask those who don't think we should be here to not read/post on our threads? You know who we are, you know your opinion and feelings on it, then don't read and don't respond. you're not helping, you don't even want to help. some of you I think as being the WS are just trying to mark up points for your own BS and look better. do it at your own expense, not mine. or go hug your BS instead of making a billboard out of me for your needs. You have plenty of other threads where you can go feel self-righteous, but your snide piety isn't welcome here.
as for those of you that stick by us and help us, I do thank you so very much and take everything to heart.
thanks,
cohosalmon
WW(me)-34
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DS(WW's M-1)-14
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Her ex does have custody of the her 14 year old son, and we do pay him child support. They were seperated, so, like I said, it is a matter of degrees, but I don't think defending it really goes over well here so we're not going to. She has paid and paid for her past but I don't think we're doomed to a miserable life because of it. We have apologized and been forgiven and we are all trying to do the best with the present. Our 3 and 4 year old children deserve the best shot we can give them, and I'll tell you that there are no better parents out there (until this horrible mess) than Coho and me. Believe me, our household is by FAR the more stable home. Her 14 year old would tell you as much. Her ex's home is pretty much non-stop chaos.
We can't really defend what we did, but for those willing to listen, we're sorry, it WAS a separation, but they were still married. We are trying to save this and we are a deserving family. If you have a different view of it, we understand, but please don't just try to tear us down.
For those who continue to help us, THANK YOU.
I will fight with everything I have to keep my family together. I would like to point out here as well, that my ex-husband and all involved have a mutual understanding of the situation that happened. There is far more that is not being disclosed to you because it has no bearing on this, IMO, and I'm not going to dig up buried bones. Both my ex and I have no ill will towards each other, we have all moved on and are the better for it.
thanks,
cohosalmon
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Of course the problem with Coho doing this is that friends and family would likely wonder why it was wrong for her to cheat now...I mean, she and Zen didn't see it as wrong when they did it to Coho's first husband, so tell me, why is it wrong now? Because it was done to Zen? Because Zen is somehow more special than her first husband was?
I'm sorry, I've kept quiet for a long time on this, but affairages coming here for help just sets my teeth on edge...The venue is, IMO, wrong...I realize that Steve and Dr. Harley do counsel people in affairages, but what they do not do is do it in front of VICTIMS of adultery...This "marriage" is the WORST nightmare of many, many BSs herein (As a matter of fact, I'm a FWS and it's a nightmare to me too)...IMHO, it is telling that Coho and Zen would come here for help...it speaks volumes about their lack of concern for OTHERS, which is what has landed them in the spot they are in currently...
Mrs. W how's that high horse?
thanks,
cohosalmon
WW(me)-34
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DS(WW's M-1)-14
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[I'm sorry, I've kept quiet for a long time on this, but affairages coming here for help just sets my teeth on edge... I'm going to take up for ZW here ... THIS IS NOT AN AFFAIRAGE ... at least based on what we have been told so far. Coho was seperated, but not technically divorced when ZW met her. Now technically, she was still M'd, but IMHO, this was not an AFFAIR. ZW played NO PART in breaking up Coho's 1st M. Let's use a little perspective here. I'm going to take up for Mrs. W here...THIS IS AN AFFAIRAGE. Here's Zen's exact words from a post 2/1/09 The truly scary thing is that this is history repeating itself. I met my wife at the end of her marriage. Turns out, I helped her end it. Our first couple dates I didn't know she was married. Then it came out and she insisted that they were separated and the marriage was dead, blah blah (EXACTLY what she tells the OM!). I was hooked at that point so I ignored the brain and dove in head first. Now I'm on the other end. I owe that man an apology. I never viewed it as an affair until now.
Our relationship was pretty rocky at first because I was scared to death of what I was getting into and she was insanely needy. We eventually grew to have a very strong relationship with good communication. I think we beat the odds for affair relationships.
Anyway, none of this bodes well for me in this. I'm a pretty centered, compassionate person, but if this isn't the worst case of karmic revenge, I don't know what is. It also doesn't speak well for her ability to deal with unhappiness in her life, which I think is at the core of this. Now...this is not to say I don't feel sorry for Zen as it appears he was initially duped; however, he WAS an adult and he voluntarily drank from the lips of an adulterous woman. Even gave her his virginity out of wedlock (and I'm not judging him for this as I, too had pre-marital sex and suffered consequences therefrom). The consequences of his actions are his own and COMPLETELY PREDICTABLE. I'd still like to see Zen and Coho at least offer Coho's first husband...the one SHE betrayed and Zen was at first dupped and then knowingly participated in destroying (Zen also in now deleted posts due to the MB upgrade indicated he NOW understood what Coho's first husband endured)...custody of the now 14 year old son. There are other options like just offering more visitation or voluntarily giving him back all or part of any child support he has to pay but I think custody would be best with Zen and Coho paying him child support. Coho had said she really liked her first husband's new wife and it's likely (alas it HAS TO BE) a much more stable home for such son to be living. Affairage households are ALWAYS crazy-making where everybody's individual happiness is paramount to right-wrong. Good day, Mr. Wondering this is so incredibly warped. please go away. I'm not a statistic for you to feel better about.
thanks,
cohosalmon
WW(me)-34
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So Coho, hows it going. I hear you are "super cook"  I was wondering if you have written your EP's yet. If you need some idea's, Tst could post you his, and flick as well. I know you read ZW's thread and I am sure you can hear his concern about your drinking. At this early stage of recovery, you need to be working on not only filling his EN's but also avoiding LBing him. Alcohol is a nice thing, and some of us can drink more than others. I personally can drink my DH under the table  However he doesnt like it, so I don't. Its a simple case of that Extrodinary Care thing we promise them when we say our vows. ZW says that you agree recovery is worth more than drinking, so why not just stop for a while. Make a date you will not drink for or a drinking limit that you can POJA on. Flick and my POJA is I will not open a second bottle of wine. Its fairly easy to remember On occasion we go thru alcohol free spells for a week or 2, usually after Christmas and the new years...we need to dry out and let our livers heal  Recovery is a tense time for couples, tip toe-ing around each other. Why make it unecessarily hard? this was super helpful. thank you. we talked about this last night.
thanks,
cohosalmon
WW(me)-34
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Coho, lot's of opinions on this thread, I think all are valid, I was waiting for a post like Mrs Wondering's Of course the problem with Coho doing this is that friends and family would likely wonder why it was wrong for her to cheat now...I mean, she and Zen didn't see it as wrong when they did it to Coho's first husband, so tell me, why is it wrong now? Because it was done to Zen? Because Zen is somehow more special than her first husband was? I see alot of things in hear that remind me of my ww, such as the alcohol! It's so easy to say I will set a three drink limit, or sure there have been times when I have driven over .08, the fact is with most people I know who drink, and my WW is an alcoholic, not saying you are, however alcohol is a large problem for you and it needs to be gone. Thats it, no more. When people who drink speak the way you do, the drink means more than the relationship with the H. One drink and you are not the same person, sure legal is .08, but one drink and you change. You may not see it, but you do. You cannot deal with this M if you drink. So pick what you want, alcohol or working on a M that started out strained to begin with. while you're certainly one I respect more than others, I think we might all want to remember you're seeing tiny little and recent windows into our lives. that is all I'll say on that.
thanks,
cohosalmon
WW(me)-34
BS-34
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Her ex does have custody of the her 14 year old son, and we do pay him child support. They were seperated, so, like I said, it is a matter of degrees, but I don't think defending it really goes over well here so we're not going to. She has paid and paid for her past but I don't think we're doomed to a miserable life because of it. We have apologized and been forgiven and we are all trying to do the best with the present. Our 3 and 4 year old children deserve the best shot we can give them, and I'll tell you that there are no better parents out there (until this horrible mess) than Coho and me. Believe me, our household is by FAR the more stable home. Her 14 year old would tell you as much. Her ex's home is pretty much non-stop chaos.
We can't really defend what we did, but for those willing to listen, we're sorry, it WAS a separation, but they were still married. We are trying to save this and we are a deserving family. If you have a different view of it, we understand, but please don't just try to tear us down.
For those who continue to help us, THANK YOU.
I will fight with everything I have to keep my family together. standing side-by-side, arms locked at elbows. thank you pumpkin. again, I'm not going to go in to the details of the last marraige or the separation(s) or any of the other crap because that isn't what I'm here to do. ZW is all that matters and our family. I'm here to fight for him, not fight forum members on the minute details of things that have no bearing. To form opinions based on so very few facts and feel so good about judging and condemning - that's just sort of scary. We're still human and so are our children. the alternative is to succumb to what you say. So, then, what? I mean, have some common sense. "Oh, sorry DD & DS, we've been recently told we're invalid as husband/wife/humans, so therefore you're f*(ked. I'm sure there's an orphanage around here somewhere that will take you. Mom is only fit for whoring and dad is only fit for..." I actually have NO IDEA where you're going with this whole idea. I don't think you do either - you're too busy finger wagging to stop and think. If our threads cause you pain, I am deeply sorry. Really. I don't want to cause another human pain - I truly care about other people and hate to see them hurting, ZW above all. ZW and I have to work through our lives, you do not. Quit reading and posting.
thanks,
cohosalmon
WW(me)-34
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When two cheaters marry it will not work. And you're just saving face having these kids.
"See look we have kids we're in love aren't we lovely?"
One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger
I will not spend my life this way.
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So Coho, hows it going. I hear you are "super cook" I was wondering if you have written your EP's yet. If you need some idea's, Tst could post you his, and flick as well. I know you read ZW's thread and I am sure you can hear his concern about your drinking. At this early stage of recovery, you need to be working on not only filling his EN's but also avoiding LBing him. Alcohol is a nice thing, and some of us can drink more than others. I personally can drink my DH under the table However he doesnt like it, so I don't. Its a simple case of that Extrodinary Care thing we promise them when we say our vows. ZW says that you agree recovery is worth more than drinking, so why not just stop for a while. Make a date you will not drink for or a drinking limit that you can POJA on. Flick and my POJA is I will not open a second bottle of wine. Its fairly easy to remember On occasion we go thru alcohol free spells for a week or 2, usually after Christmas and the new years...we need to dry out and let our livers heal Recovery is a tense time for couples, tip toe-ing around each other. Why make it unecessarily hard? this was super helpful. thank you. we talked about this last night. PS - I did look up EPs last night. I have another Harley appt. Thursday morning. being this is only my 2nd, I'm sure we'll have some talk on this. I do want to do all of these things, but in the timeline and with the help of Dr. H. while I respect and take everything to heart here, we have the resource of Dr. H himself and I would like to have his advisement as to my timeline of work. I have an outline for the next 3 steps and I don't think I should try to rush any recovery steps so will do them as he advises. that and we're paying the man, so I'd like to get our money's worth. ha. seriously, though, this hasn't fallen on deaf ears and I'm on it.
thanks,
cohosalmon
WW(me)-34
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When two cheaters marry it will not work. And you're just saving face having these kids.
"See look we have kids we're in love aren't we lovely?" what is funny is you're just having the opposite effect on me. I'm more stubborn now and will dig my heels in even more and fight even harder for ZW.
thanks,
cohosalmon
WW(me)-34
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Wow! I thought maybe this would die down. Glad to see this is bringing you together. I guess the two of you are triggering a couple of folks around here. None of us are perfect. If we were, we would not be on this website. We have all come here for support on saving our marriages. You can't save your first marriage anymore. What good can come from running you off? The satisfaction of vengeance towards an OM or satisfaction of destroying a marriage with 2 little children because it started as an affair strictly speaking? I think there is a lot of pain speaking in these attacks. I don't have a problem supporting a husband and wife that want to live an honest, decent life together and raise their children with both parents in the house. What's done is done. It is ancient history. I see no good from condemning either of you for something that was done years ago. It is not my place to judge anyone. If your post made me uncomfortable, I hope I would choose another post to follow. There are plenty to choose from. There are hundreds of people hear desperate for help and support.
Over it.
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Because you see, I fear that the message delivered to new FWSs by affair marriages being supported here is this: "What I did was only wrong because I didn't divorce my BS and marry OP. If I would have done THAT, then my affair would have been legit!" Clearly NOT a great take-home message... You couldn't be any more wrong about what I think of my cheating.
Me (FWW): 45
BH: 46
M: 11/94
PA: 2/08 (4 mos)
Confessed: 10/08
DS10
DD8
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When two cheaters marry it will not work. And you're just saving face having these kids.
"See look we have kids we're in love aren't we lovely?" what is funny is you're just having the opposite effect on me. I'm more stubborn now and will dig my heels in even more and fight even harder for ZW. You're welcome. (and you said we weren't being helpful) You see...your affairage ISN'T in the past. It's an affairage TODAY. The sickness transpires. Which means the chances for a TRUE recovery are VERY SLIM (according to Dr. Harley). You have a history of giving up and moving on. My wife quoted nearly those exact words above. There is WAY more to recovery than just ending your affair. It could change your life and your family forever and effect way more than just the two of you. For the benefit of your children and your children's children I'd like to see your wayward mindsets end. Both of you. It's not likely it will and I simply don't think this is the right forum for you to achieve it...but it doesn't mean I don't wish it for THEM. What's really "warped" about it is these two threads of yours are like rapists coming to a support forum for rape victims and insisting on help. Your husband even invoked the "Good Samaritan" story to knock us Christians for not offering assistance when neither of you represent here a innocently injured victim alone on the side of the road. Rather you are more like a gunmen laying on the side of the road with a self-inflicted gunshot wound surrounded by a plethora of your own and other innocent gunshot victims. In addition, "just don't read it" doesn't work when there is no way to forewarn newbies here that this is a "affair support thread". It's hurtful and a continuing of a entitlement mindset which in itself is an indication that neither of you are going to get it, irregardless of your "stubborness". Though you two may recover yet it seems unlikely you will really recover and for THAT I am truly sorry for your children. Mr. Wondering
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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I'm offended in a big way by this thread and agree with the Wonderings. It takes very "special" people to look for HELP from the very type of people they caused harm to.
It shows an utter disregard or complete lack of understanding. The more you defend, the more you confirm.
Immediately upon being questioned, you flipped the table and pointed fingers at your BS - justifying WHY what you did was ok.
You have a LONG way to go.
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what is funny is you're just having the opposite effect on me. I'm more stubborn now and will dig my heels in even more and fight even harder for ZW. Coho, I don't think I've ever posted directly to you ... mainly because I didn't care too much for your attitude ... you were just TOO wayward in your perspective and as a BH, I just don't do "wayward" very well. However, I noticed a change in you today and I wanted to extend to you an "attagirl". I was impressed by the tenacity you displayed in defending ZW and your M from these ridiculous and petty attacks. Prior to this, it seemed you were more interested in excusing your behavior, but today you stood up in defense of ZW and your M ... I noticed the difference and I bet ZW did too. I don't know if you all can recover from the effects of your A, but you took a very positive step in that direction today. Kudos to you for being the better person today.
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Thanks myrevelation. that's helpful. I know I'm flippant and I apologize.
thanks,
cohosalmon
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DD-4
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I agree with Myrev about the attitude--though I disagree that I saw much of a change today. I think you and Mr. W should have a birds' eye view of each other from equally high horses. To form opinions based on so very few facts and feel so good about judging and condemning - that's just sort of scary. We're still human and so are our children. If you are going to come here and lay bare the most intimate details of your marriage and then claim we only have a glimpse when you hear things you don't like well... that doesn't work for me. It's a bit too much like.... ..cakeeating.
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so, anyway. if it's alright, I'm going to drop this topic because there is no resolution.
and on to another.
ZW is taking the kids 3 hours away on saturday. I work saturday night so can not go. This, I feel, is a huge leap of trust on his part. ZW has suggested that I take a day for myself and go window shopping. isn't that the sweetest? I've been trying to think of ways that I can verify my locations/actions until I go to work. I probably won't leave the house much if at all, but if I do, do you think texting is enough? I can take photos of myself and send them too....although sorta dorky while in a store. ha. I'm sure I"ll pop on here for a bit, but just wanted to know (Flick?) what others have done.
I also have my #2 appt with Dr. H tomorrow AM - the one where I discuss going over details. tummy already rumbling over that one, but on the other hand it will be nice to jump that hurdle. well, 'nice' isn't the word - it will be something though.
thanks,
cohosalmon
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