I bumped his old thread for you.

He was very different when he first came here.

So Coho, hows it going. I hear you are "super cook"

I was wondering if you have written your EP's yet. If you need some idea's, Tst could post you his, and flick as well.

I know you read ZW's thread and I am sure you can hear his concern about your drinking. At this early stage of recovery, you need to be working on not only filling his EN's but also avoiding LBing him. Alcohol is a nice thing, and some of us can drink more than others. I personally can drink my DH under the table
However he doesnt like it, so I don't. Its a simple case of that Extrodinary Care thing we promise them when we say our vows.

ZW says that you agree recovery is worth more than drinking, so why not just stop for a while. Make a date you will not drink for or a drinking limit that you can POJA on.
Flick and my POJA is I will not open a second bottle of wine. Its fairly easy to remember On occasion we go thru alcohol free spells for a week or 2, usually after Christmas and the new years...we need to dry out and let our livers heal

Recovery is a tense time for couples, tip toe-ing around each other. Why make it unecessarily hard?

Coho,
I read Zen's thread and know that he is going through a rough spell. This is normal. Hang in there. Please understand that it won't take much to trigger his bad moods and insecurities right now. His pain is still so fresh. He is looking for answers and re-assurances. Alcohol is an easy escape but it is a barrier between you and Zen. It may seperate or numb you from a little of the pain that you are feeling. It also seperates and numbs you to Zen. He needs your presence to re-assure him of your sincerity. You have said that he is the cuddly affectionate one in your relationship. That is a clue to you about what he likes. I am the same way in our house. Try showing him more affection or cuddling. I bet it would help his moods. Sometimes when I am feeling all the yuck from the affair, my husband comes up and puts his arms around me or just really looks at me and kisses me and I feel INSTANTLY better. It doesn't always take much. Sometimes his touch is all it takes to remind me that he is right here with me and if he actually says something sweet - all the better.

we certainly view parts of that evening differently. I'm pretty upset about it.

you know that toothpaste analogy? take a tube of toothpaste, squeeze all the toothpaste on to the plate. no, put the toothpaste back in the tube. words are like that. once they come spewing out of your mouth, you can't take them back.

I'm not saying I didn't deserve what was said to me. ZW's feelings in this are very real and his perception is his reality in this. Me having 4 drinks in 5 hours doesn't quite tip my BAC over an unacceptable limit according to OLCC. ZW's perceptions about drinking and socializing are, in many opinions, a bit warped. I'll put myself on a 3 drink max or a no drink night or whatever he wants to get us through this.

what does EP stand for again?

Some days suck. really suck. I feel I have no right to be depressed or upset or feel lonely. I know what you're going to say - that I need to lean on him. I don't really want to. I'm mad at him. but then, I have no right because this wouldn't all be here if it wasn't for me, right?

ZW was mad that I was talking with our old friends, one of which being his brother. They're still my friends too, right? All through some of this, ZW insisted that they're still my friends and that I should talk to them. I married in to most of them and ZW told them everything that was going on, so I felt very alienated. Rightly so, I get it. And so we go out, and I'm talking to them in a social setting - is that the time to make it about me and the A? is that the time, on the anniversary of a friend's sister's death and the night after another death and a friend playing on stage that night - is that the place to go around to all of them and bring up how I'm sorry about everything I did to ZW? I just feel everything I do, every way I do it is wrong. And it was expressed as such Friday night. I shouldn't be having conversatons with my BIL because I haven't apologized to him yet. I can't still be mad at a friend and care that it's the anniversary of her sister's death. I'm not writing the right things on the forum.

I'm not trying to come across as defensive, just depressed. just really, really sad. NCAA, local college and I don't even remember what was on the other screens...something - and even if I get off at 6, it takes 10-15 minutes to split tips, and yeah, a pizza takes 15 to cook, 5 to make and that's if there isn't food in front of it.

anyway. I need to snap out of this depressed mood.

ZW is a wonderful man.

I read most of this on Friday. thank you for sharing!

"I'm not saying I didn't deserve what was said to me. ZW's feelings in this are very real and his perception is his reality in this. Me having 4 drinks in 5 hours doesn't quite tip my BAC over an unacceptable limit according to OLCC. ZW's perceptions about drinking and socializing are, in many opinions, a bit warped."

So was Zen telling us the truth when he said you got a DUI????

WHAT? I've never had a DUI. I think that might be a misread or a typo.

Okay, so sorry. I thought you were drinking and driving with the kids in the car. I must have gotten your story mixed up. Please forgive me.

sorry, not it. I'm not saying I've always been under .08 when I've driven, but certainly not with kids in the car and certainly no DUIs nor is it common.

Hey, Coho.

I don't have much time to write right now. And that's probably a good thing as I tend to go on and on and on...

But one thing I did of my own accord was I wrote hand-written letters to my H's family and our closest friends, apologizing for what I had done to my H, their brother/son/friend. Some I apologized to face-to-face, but those I knew I wouldn't see for a while and those who I wanted to make sure they heard me, I put a letter in the mail. An example of one of my first letters here:

Dear Friend,

I am so sorry for bringing so much pain to your friend, my husband. I had to tell him about my cheating and I can’t explain anything more to you. I’m sorry for disappointing you both. It’s killing me watching H go through this and I’m sure it’s hard for you as you hear him and see him experience my betrayal. He is understandably hurting and I thank you for being there for him. He needs support as he processes what I’ve done.

Thank you for being his friend before and through this horrible time. Please help take care of him.

===========

Doing this helped me, it helped our friends, and my H was appreciative after he heard about it from those who received the letters. It helped me understand what the people around us might be having to deal with and it helped me crack that very uncomfortable elephant that was certainly in the room. Me broaching the subject first and admitting my responsibility I think helped people feel okay about supporting our M -- seeing that I was truly remorseful and was not going to hide behind any excuses.

This is hard, isn't it.

Of course the problem with Coho doing this is that friends and family would likely wonder why it was wrong for her to cheat now...I mean, she and Zen didn't see it as wrong when they did it to Coho's first husband, so tell me, why is it wrong now? Because it was done to Zen? Because Zen is somehow more special than her first husband was?

I'm sorry, I've kept quiet for a long time on this, but affairages coming here for help just sets my teeth on edge...The venue is, IMO, wrong...I realize that Steve and Dr. Harley do counsel people in affairages, but what they do not do is do it in front of VICTIMS of adultery...This "marriage" is the WORST nightmare of many, many BSs herein (As a matter of fact, I'm a FWS and it's a nightmare to me too)...IMHO, it is telling that Coho and Zen would come here for help...it speaks volumes about their lack of concern for OTHERS, which is what has landed them in the spot they are in currently...

Mrs. W

Coho,

lot's of opinions on this thread, I think all are valid, I was waiting for a post like Mrs Wondering's


I see alot of things in hear that remind me of my ww, such as the alcohol! It's so easy to say I will set a three drink limit, or sure there have been times when I have driven over .08, the fact is with most people I know who drink, and my WW is an alcoholic, not saying you are, however alcohol is a large problem for you and it needs to be gone. Thats it, no more. When people who drink speak the way you do, the drink means more than the relationship with the H.

One drink and you are not the same person, sure legal is .08, but one drink and you change. You may not see it, but you do.

You cannot deal with this M if you drink. So pick what you want, alcohol or working on a M that started out strained to begin with.

I'm going to take up for ZW here ... THIS IS NOT AN AFFAIRAGE ... at least based on what we have been told so far.

Coho was seperated, but not technically divorced when ZW met her. Now technically, she was still M'd, but IMHO, this was not an AFFAIR. ZW played NO PART in breaking up Coho's 1st M.

Let's use a little perspective here.

I agree with MyRev. I don't think this is a classic "bust up the former marriage" affairage. This is hard enough without name-calling and more bashing.
Coho, I understand that you wants to have a normal night out. I don't think that date night is the night to seek out friends and family to talk about the affair. I do think that if you had spent more attention on ZW, he wouldn't have been so cranky. I think that he was feeling neglected from what I read in his post. Two weeks after the last dday is a horrible time. I know that you have been working on your marriage longer but every time you have contact with the other man ZW has to start the healing process all over again. I know that you had a horrible fight and ZW left you alone at the bar which was not a loving thing for ZW to do. But, you ran to the OM. Yes, you were drunk. I won't tell you again that maybe you shouldn't drink at all. This should be clear by now. ZW is emotionally exhausted. I'm sure you are too. You guys just have to get through this. Have you read LoveBusters yet? I'm reading it now and it has some good ideas about how to deal with anger that I think would be helpful for both of you - might help keep your toothpaste in the tube. Hang in there.

From Coho herself on this thread:


I don't think it would have been mentioned that way if it weren't for the affair factor...

Mrs. W

I'm going to take up for Mrs. W here...THIS IS AN AFFAIRAGE.

Here's Zen's exact words from a post 2/1/09



Now...this is not to say I don't feel sorry for Zen as it appears he was initially duped; however, he WAS an adult and he voluntarily drank from the lips of an adulterous woman. Even gave her his virginity out of wedlock (and I'm not judging him for this as I, too had pre-marital sex and suffered consequences therefrom). The consequences of his actions are his own and COMPLETELY PREDICTABLE.

I'd still like to see Zen and Coho at least offer Coho's first husband...the one SHE betrayed and Zen was at first dupped and then knowingly participated in destroying (Zen also in now deleted posts due to the MB upgrade indicated he NOW understood what Coho's first husband endured)...custody of the now 14 year old son. There are other options like just offering more visitation or voluntarily giving him back all or part of any child support he has to pay but I think custody would be best with Zen and Coho paying him child support. Coho had said she really liked her first husband's new wife and it's likely (alas it HAS TO BE) a much more stable home for such son to be living. Affairage households are ALWAYS crazy-making where everybody's individual happiness is paramount to right-wrong.

Good day,

Mr. Wondering

Also said by Coho:


But whatever...

What moved me to finally say something in the first place was seeing a relatively new FWS posting help on this thread...THAT concerns me for HER recovery, and I'll tell you why...If I were her BS, it would cause me great pause to watch my FWS reaching out to help an affair marriage...It would say to me that she didn't quite "get it"...This is not an attack on L4 at all, but hopefully a heads-up, to think about what she is doing...To REALLY think it through...

Because you see, I fear that the message delivered to new FWSs by affair marriages being supported here is this: "What I did was only wrong because I didn't divorce my BS and marry OP. If I would have done THAT, then my affair would have been legit!" Clearly NOT a great take-home message...

Over and out for now...

Mrs. W

Her ex does have custody of the her 14 year old son, and we do pay him child support. They were seperated, so, like I said, it is a matter of degrees, but I don't think defending it really goes over well here so we're not going to. She has paid and paid for her past but I don't think we're doomed to a miserable life because of it. We have apologized and been forgiven and we are all trying to do the best with the present. Our 3 and 4 year old children deserve the best shot we can give them, and I'll tell you that there are no better parents out there (until this horrible mess) than Coho and me. Believe me, our household is by FAR the more stable home. Her 14 year old would tell you as much. Her ex's home is pretty much non-stop chaos.

We can't really defend what we did, but for those willing to listen, we're sorry, it WAS a separation, but they were still married. We are trying to save this and we are a deserving family. If you have a different view of it, we understand, but please don't just try to tear us down.

For those who continue to help us, THANK YOU.

I will fight with everything I have to keep my family together.

Zen, it is nice to see you defend your wife. She is getting pretty bashed here right now. I thought you were going to stop reading her posts...

Oh I also mentioned that her ex cheated on her at least twice, once right after her son was born. The man was/is not a saint and the marriage was very much done when I met her. Acknowledging it as an affair was our attempt to be completely honest on this forum and glean whatever help we could. Looking through the lens of today, I should have waited until they were divorced and it would have saved a lot of pain and suffering. Again, we're sorry. I understand the sensitivities here, believe me, but it is unfair to judge our family from afar.