Been in moderate contact w/ WW the past few days.

She's express a desire to make our marriage work. Says she will whatever it takes, whatever I ask.

Gun shy doesn't really cover my feelings.

I've explained that I can't trust her. That the onus of rebuilding trust lies with her.
Went on to expalin that there are major issues in the past that we'll have to dredge up. Things will get much worse and more painful for a while before they get better.

There is my question:
In a situation where there is a painful past, the likes of which needs to be re-hashed, how can two people at the end of the rope discuss these things without AO's, while trying to maintain some level of respect?
It would be easy for me to drop a lable on her as a selfish "such-and-such", but that's a short cut to failure.
I'm not really ambivalent about all this. I am very cautions. My eyes are open.

Part of me also says, two people can't even begin this process until there's trust.
This is something I've never really noticed or mentioned here.
OK, the WS in caught, WS fesses up. But really, at that point you can't trust the WS, nor for that matter the WS the BS. The honesty is only as good as the paper it's printed on. And the maritial currency isn't worth much.

How much trust and love must be re-built before that honesty has value?

How much talking is too much? How much time together is too much at this point?

What aspect of a marriage should be worked on first?

The pain and betrayal are still at the surface.

I told WS I'm glad this happened. As it's the only chance (irrespective of her A), for us to fix this marriage.

I've dug out all DR. H's books. Read a fair bit of all of them again.

Ok, so will she do the things I listed on your other thread? Here is what I said:

Ok, what is her plan? Here is what it will take to recover a marriage with a serial cheater and I guarantee ya she will not do this. But her ability to lead a secret second life is what has led to her affairs and that has to be eliminated entirely:

1. take a polygraph to get out past affairs - confess everything

2. no leisure time without you - everytime she goes out it is with you OR NOT AT ALL

3. no more drinking since it seems to lead to situations like this

4. she gives you full access to her cell phone, office voicemail, computer, bank accounts, complete transparency

5. no opposite sex friends

6. no skanks or stupid trashy women for female friends

7. she attends a Marriage Builders weekend with you and learns to start acting like a wife and LEARN TO MEET YOUR NEEDS.

8. CHANGES HER OCCUPATION to one that is not vulnerable to affairs

The above things are what it will take to AFFAIR PROOF your marriage. If she will do those things, you have a chance. And this is not about you telling her what to do, but all about her WILLINGNESS to do what it takes to recover the marriage. If she won't do that, then this is hopeless.

If not, then you need to move on forward. BUT, most importantly, DD, I would file the divorce and then let her PROVE herself. If she doesn't, then you have lost nothing and can get out. You have nothing to lose. But you do have alot to lose if you stay in this marriage under these conditions. ALOT.

Just AGREEING to those things will not be enough because TALK IS CHEAP. You need a DEMONSTRATION. A promise from a liar is meaningless. Get the divorce filed and tell her your plan. And tell her it will "take alot to make me change my mind."

"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."

huh?


15 hours a week together meeting each others needs is what is will take. I don't know what you mean by "how much talking is too much."


AFFAIR PROOFING the marriage. Plug the leak first. She has to make dramatic changes in order to protect you from a repeat performance.

What is your desire, though? It bothers me that you are more concerned about her desires than yours. That is part of what has led to this problem. Her desires have run roughshod over your marriage, in the absence of any boundaries on your part.


What an odd thing to say. Are you telling her that her affair is GOOD for your marriage? Isn't that sort of like telling a rapist that rape is good for the victim? Are you trying to encourage her to do this more often? Telling her something like this is very counterproductive and actually REWARDS her for crapping on your marriage over and over again. Adultery is the worst thing that can happen to a marriage, DD. Sure, people survive IN SPITE OF IT, but not certainly not because of it. Unless you are into masochism, it can't be said that an affair is good, DD.

IMO, you should schedule recurring appointments with the Harleys, so they can short-pass you through the bs and get into the fixing the marriage part.

I think the process begins with faith. Not neccessarily faith in the WS/BS, but faith in the process.

The MB approach is a fair and reasonable model for building or rebuilding a M. I think if you follow the process, the trust issues will be resolved one way or another. I think following the process requires faith in the process. As an example, if you really have faith in the process, then AO's should resolve themselves, since you believe they do no good.

That is not to say you will be perfect and not have any, it's just to say you should get better about it over time and eventually eliminate them. If the WS has faith in the process, they will understand that improvement will come over time.

Also, faith in the process doesn't guarentee it will work. If the WS has no faith in it, it won't. But, the MB approach accounts for that circumstance as well.

Mel,
She's agreed to most of that.
And is willing to follow through.

I choose not to pursue the polygraph and I doubt it's in the cards to attend a MB weekend any time soon. The rest, including looking for a different sort of job she's going to do.

I know and understand she has a lot to prove to me. I more aware of that than anyone.

I know it doesn't make sense, what I said about being glad I found out about the affair. ALL BS need to know. It's living a lie that's worse for me. The lack of honesty. Even from a simple "this marriage is broke" perspective. If you don't know it's broke, you can't fix it. AND/OR If it's not broke you don't fix it. I know my marriage has been broken for a while now. This horrid event make force a change. If it doesn't, it will end the marriage. WW knows that.
That's been made clear to her. That if she's not willing to do the hard work. To be honest. We are done.
My odd questions were along the lines of that honesty. The basis of it. The trust and the basis of it. You can't build on a rotten foundation. So in that I'm at a disadvantage.
Maybe too my WW is going to fight an uphill battle.

Not so much worried about that, just don't want to set up false hopes for myself.

DD,

I am not sure you are making a wise decision, but let me offer some thoughts.

1. It is your W's job to show and convince you that something has changed within her.

2. It is your W's job to come up with a plan that both reassures you and has the openness and honesty to allow you to verify anything and everything you need to verify.

3. it is your W's job to address her issues and I do think her latest actions have caused and will cause some severe issues within her.

4. It is your W's job to protect the family and you and she needs to lay out a plan that does that.

Recovery is hard as you well know, but the further damage to your kids, yourself, and yes even herself cause by her failing to be serious this time make me wonder if it is worth it for any of you. Somehow she needs to convince you that the risk is worth the reward and not just to you.

God Bless,

JL

What has she not agreed to? And how will you know the truth about her previous affairs?

DD, please stick to one thread. When you start new ones it makes it hard to keep up with your story and give reasonable input.

I agree that it's likely unwise to try to work out a marriage with her, but that is your decision to make and no one else's.

If I were in your shoes, I'd give her the Harley books and tell her "This is the kind of marriage I want. Read these books. Then if you're still serious about reconciliation, you lead."

Then sit back and watch what she does.

Pull your head out of fantasy-land. You have absolutely no rational basis to assume the bolded statement is true. On the contrary, you have mountains of supporting data to show that it is more than likely, not true. Under no circumstances, should you give her the benefit of the doubt as a starting point in your recovery. I'm not saying this to be harsh, but I see in you a man who doesn't know who he is without this woman in his life. From your posts, I see someone who would rather be continuously crapped on by his WW, than lead a life without her. Women don't respect weakness. This attitude will actually ensure your situation continues. You are going to need to be much stronger if you want to actually accomplish anything in this process. You MUST set and enforce boundaries, and this post shows that you are already caving on those and the process hasn't even started yet.


Very poor decisions. Very poor. You haven't even started the process yet and you are already capitulating on your "requirements". These are probably the two most major methods for her to prove that she is serious this time, and you throw them away because they are hard.


Your posts don't support this claim. You are already eliminating some of the most important steps in the process.


I seriously doubt she is taking you seriously in your claim to end the marriage. How long have you been living in this limbo hell? Isn't it going on 5 years now? Didn't you just take her back again, and then find her 2 weeks later starting another affair online? Its pointless to verbalize consequences if you have a track record of not enforcing them. Again, I'm not trying to be harsh, but I think you need an objective viewpoint here to try and shock you back to reality.


Then do recovery the right way. Stop trying to wing it and follow the plan and advice of the Harley's and other forum members. You have got to approach this with strength. If you don't value yourself enough to set strict boundaries, she will not respect you enough to actually learn and become a real wife.

Minor correction to the above post since it won't let me edit it. I see she is willing to look for new work. I meant to put the marriage builder weekend in that part.

Unfettered is exactly right, DD. You are giving the benefit of the doubt to someone who has proven she does not warrant it. The fact that she "wants to work on the marriage" is meangingless BLABBER coming from a liar. Talk is cheap, DD, and you would be a fool to do anything based on her words. Only ACTIONS count.

And I suspect she is not willing to do much at all, if anything. You find hope in her empty words. Well, hope is not a plan. It has not worked for you in the past and will not work for you in the future.

I suspect she knows she is complete control here and knows you will not divorce her, DD.

Dalton, for all intense purposes your wife has an open marriage. She has cuckolded you multiple times. You will not polygraph her, so its obvious that you know this. You will simply put up with this because she has stripped you of all selfrespect. She has told you she will not quit her job. It pays well and she gets tipped in men. All I can say is good luck and see you in 5 years.

DD,
I'm in agreement with posts here but it seems you believe the outcome may be different this second time around. If this is indeed true follow what Turtle suggested - your wife, not you, needs to take the books out, read and prove to you with ACTION. Mel made a good point about you not being taken seriously by your WW. Show her your serious, file papers for D, put in Plan A and let's see how serious your WW really is about R?

GG

GG

Thanks for the unwavering support.

I guess where that leaves me is where I was several years ago.

My statement that all WS (past and present, ya'll's included) should be dragged into the street and summarily shot.

It's an option.

I think it does, because there is nothing to indicate that your wife has changed rather than just telling you what you want to hear to support whatever short term goals she has this week. The advice we give you hear is not to tear you down, but because we don't want to see you continually hurt by her. You are where you were several years ago, but you don't have to stay there. You have options open to you, but they all require you to set clear boundaries with consequences and then enforce them.

If you are going to try to reconcile, you absolutely must set the bar high...like stratospherically high. You have to value yourself enough to see that its up to her to EARN you. Not for you to set the bar low enough to ensure she can step over it. Personally, I think you might benefit from some individual counseling sessions that can empower you to see your own worth again. Once you realize that you really can do much better, it will become much easier to set those boundaries and shrug off her antics.

So what is your plan now?

DD,
I like to see it this way with the advice you are receiving - many of us would not like to see you back here in a couple of years with DDay3. That is why it's so important to set the bar high now - like the previous posts mentions. If you want to work with you WW then more has to be done than what was done the last time in order to prevent it from happening again.

"Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for each other exceeds your need for each other."

GG

ahhh, the triggers come marching in.

There is a huge difference this time. AS WW is in NC, has disclosed all about her A, is transparent in all ways.
Is working herself to rebuild this marriage.

But regardless, those triggers are always worse than D-Day.

It's hard to seperate last time and now. Not sure I should really when I comes to my feelings.

But the triggers...they do march on... stomping down your self-esteem.

Wow how deceived can one man be. It is like a week and you're sure she is in NC and is transparent. Oh Its different now. Right. She won't ever cheat again.