Been in moderate contact w/ WW the past few days.

She's express a desire to make our marriage work. Says she will whatever it takes, whatever I ask.

Gun shy doesn't really cover my feelings.

I've explained that I can't trust her. That the onus of rebuilding trust lies with her.
Went on to expalin that there are major issues in the past that we'll have to dredge up. Things will get much worse and more painful for a while before they get better.

There is my question:
In a situation where there is a painful past, the likes of which needs to be re-hashed, how can two people at the end of the rope discuss these things without AO's, while trying to maintain some level of respect?
It would be easy for me to drop a lable on her as a selfish "such-and-such", but that's a short cut to failure.
I'm not really ambivalent about all this. I am very cautions. My eyes are open.

Part of me also says, two people can't even begin this process until there's trust.
This is something I've never really noticed or mentioned here.
OK, the WS in caught, WS fesses up. But really, at that point you can't trust the WS, nor for that matter the WS the BS. The honesty is only as good as the paper it's printed on. And the maritial currency isn't worth much.

How much trust and love must be re-built before that honesty has value?

How much talking is too much? How much time together is too much at this point?

What aspect of a marriage should be worked on first?

The pain and betrayal are still at the surface.

I told WS I'm glad this happened. As it's the only chance (irrespective of her A), for us to fix this marriage.

I've dug out all DR. H's books. Read a fair bit of all of them again.

Ok, so will she do the things I listed on your other thread? Here is what I said:

Ok, what is her plan? Here is what it will take to recover a marriage with a serial cheater and I guarantee ya she will not do this. But her ability to lead a secret second life is what has led to her affairs and that has to be eliminated entirely:

1. take a polygraph to get out past affairs - confess everything

2. no leisure time without you - everytime she goes out it is with you OR NOT AT ALL

3. no more drinking since it seems to lead to situations like this

4. she gives you full access to her cell phone, office voicemail, computer, bank accounts, complete transparency

5. no opposite sex friends

6. no skanks or stupid trashy women for female friends

7. she attends a Marriage Builders weekend with you and learns to start acting like a wife and LEARN TO MEET YOUR NEEDS.

8. CHANGES HER OCCUPATION to one that is not vulnerable to affairs

The above things are what it will take to AFFAIR PROOF your marriage. If she will do those things, you have a chance. And this is not about you telling her what to do, but all about her WILLINGNESS to do what it takes to recover the marriage. If she won't do that, then this is hopeless.

If not, then you need to move on forward. BUT, most importantly, DD, I would file the divorce and then let her PROVE herself. If she doesn't, then you have lost nothing and can get out. You have nothing to lose. But you do have alot to lose if you stay in this marriage under these conditions. ALOT.

Just AGREEING to those things will not be enough because TALK IS CHEAP. You need a DEMONSTRATION. A promise from a liar is meaningless. Get the divorce filed and tell her your plan. And tell her it will "take alot to make me change my mind."

"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."
"it will take alot to make me change my mind."

huh?


15 hours a week together meeting each others needs is what is will take. I don't know what you mean by "how much talking is too much."


AFFAIR PROOFING the marriage. Plug the leak first. She has to make dramatic changes in order to protect you from a repeat performance.

What is your desire, though? It bothers me that you are more concerned about her desires than yours. That is part of what has led to this problem. Her desires have run roughshod over your marriage, in the absence of any boundaries on your part.


What an odd thing to say. Are you telling her that her affair is GOOD for your marriage? Isn't that sort of like telling a rapist that rape is good for the victim? Are you trying to encourage her to do this more often? Telling her something like this is very counterproductive and actually REWARDS her for crapping on your marriage over and over again. Adultery is the worst thing that can happen to a marriage, DD. Sure, people survive IN SPITE OF IT, but not certainly not because of it. Unless you are into masochism, it can't be said that an affair is good, DD.

IMO, you should schedule recurring appointments with the Harleys, so they can short-pass you through the bs and get into the fixing the marriage part.

I think the process begins with faith. Not neccessarily faith in the WS/BS, but faith in the process.

The MB approach is a fair and reasonable model for building or rebuilding a M. I think if you follow the process, the trust issues will be resolved one way or another. I think following the process requires faith in the process. As an example, if you really have faith in the process, then AO's should resolve themselves, since you believe they do no good.

That is not to say you will be perfect and not have any, it's just to say you should get better about it over time and eventually eliminate them. If the WS has faith in the process, they will understand that improvement will come over time.

Also, faith in the process doesn't guarentee it will work. If the WS has no faith in it, it won't. But, the MB approach accounts for that circumstance as well.

Mel,
She's agreed to most of that.
And is willing to follow through.

I choose not to pursue the polygraph and I doubt it's in the cards to attend a MB weekend any time soon. The rest, including looking for a different sort of job she's going to do.

I know and understand she has a lot to prove to me. I more aware of that than anyone.

I know it doesn't make sense, what I said about being glad I found out about the affair. ALL BS need to know. It's living a lie that's worse for me. The lack of honesty. Even from a simple "this marriage is broke" perspective. If you don't know it's broke, you can't fix it. AND/OR If it's not broke you don't fix it. I know my marriage has been broken for a while now. This horrid event make force a change. If it doesn't, it will end the marriage. WW knows that.
That's been made clear to her. That if she's not willing to do the hard work. To be honest. We are done.
My odd questions were along the lines of that honesty. The basis of it. The trust and the basis of it. You can't build on a rotten foundation. So in that I'm at a disadvantage.
Maybe too my WW is going to fight an uphill battle.

Not so much worried about that, just don't want to set up false hopes for myself.

DD,

I am not sure you are making a wise decision, but let me offer some thoughts.

1. It is your W's job to show and convince you that something has changed within her.

2. It is your W's job to come up with a plan that both reassures you and has the openness and honesty to allow you to verify anything and everything you need to verify.

3. it is your W's job to address her issues and I do think her latest actions have caused and will cause some severe issues within her.

4. It is your W's job to protect the family and you and she needs to lay out a plan that does that.

Recovery is hard as you well know, but the further damage to your kids, yourself, and yes even herself cause by her failing to be serious this time make me wonder if it is worth it for any of you. Somehow she needs to convince you that the risk is worth the reward and not just to you.

God Bless,

JL

What has she not agreed to? And how will you know the truth about her previous affairs?

DD, please stick to one thread. When you start new ones it makes it hard to keep up with your story and give reasonable input.

I agree that it's likely unwise to try to work out a marriage with her, but that is your decision to make and no one else's.

If I were in your shoes, I'd give her the Harley books and tell her "This is the kind of marriage I want. Read these books. Then if you're still serious about reconciliation, you lead."

Then sit back and watch what she does.

Pull your head out of fantasy-land. You have absolutely no rational basis to assume the bolded statement is true. On the contrary, you have mountains of supporting data to show that it is more than likely, not true. Under no circumstances, should you give her the benefit of the doubt as a starting point in your recovery. I'm not saying this to be harsh, but I see in you a man who doesn't know who he is without this woman in his life. From your posts, I see someone who would rather be continuously crapped on by his WW, than lead a life without her. Women don't respect weakness. This attitude will actually ensure your situation continues. You are going to need to be much stronger if you want to actually accomplish anything in this process. You MUST set and enforce boundaries, and this post shows that you are already caving on those and the process hasn't even started yet.


Very poor decisions. Very poor. You haven't even started the process yet and you are already capitulating on your "requirements". These are probably the two most major methods for her to prove that she is serious this time, and you throw them away because they are hard.


Your posts don't support this claim. You are already eliminating some of the most important steps in the process.


I seriously doubt she is taking you seriously in your claim to end the marriage. How long have you been living in this limbo hell? Isn't it going on 5 years now? Didn't you just take her back again, and then find her 2 weeks later starting another affair online? Its pointless to verbalize consequences if you have a track record of not enforcing them. Again, I'm not trying to be harsh, but I think you need an objective viewpoint here to try and shock you back to reality.


Then do recovery the right way. Stop trying to wing it and follow the plan and advice of the Harley's and other forum members. You have got to approach this with strength. If you don't value yourself enough to set strict boundaries, she will not respect you enough to actually learn and become a real wife.

Minor correction to the above post since it won't let me edit it. I see she is willing to look for new work. I meant to put the marriage builder weekend in that part.

Unfettered is exactly right, DD. You are giving the benefit of the doubt to someone who has proven she does not warrant it. The fact that she "wants to work on the marriage" is meangingless BLABBER coming from a liar. Talk is cheap, DD, and you would be a fool to do anything based on her words. Only ACTIONS count.

And I suspect she is not willing to do much at all, if anything. You find hope in her empty words. Well, hope is not a plan. It has not worked for you in the past and will not work for you in the future.

I suspect she knows she is complete control here and knows you will not divorce her, DD.

Dalton, for all intense purposes your wife has an open marriage. She has cuckolded you multiple times. You will not polygraph her, so its obvious that you know this. You will simply put up with this because she has stripped you of all selfrespect. She has told you she will not quit her job. It pays well and she gets tipped in men. All I can say is good luck and see you in 5 years.

DD,
I'm in agreement with posts here but it seems you believe the outcome may be different this second time around. If this is indeed true follow what Turtle suggested - your wife, not you, needs to take the books out, read and prove to you with ACTION. Mel made a good point about you not being taken seriously by your WW. Show her your serious, file papers for D, put in Plan A and let's see how serious your WW really is about R?

GG

GG

Thanks for the unwavering support.

I guess where that leaves me is where I was several years ago.

My statement that all WS (past and present, ya'll's included) should be dragged into the street and summarily shot.

It's an option.

I think it does, because there is nothing to indicate that your wife has changed rather than just telling you what you want to hear to support whatever short term goals she has this week. The advice we give you hear is not to tear you down, but because we don't want to see you continually hurt by her. You are where you were several years ago, but you don't have to stay there. You have options open to you, but they all require you to set clear boundaries with consequences and then enforce them.

If you are going to try to reconcile, you absolutely must set the bar high...like stratospherically high. You have to value yourself enough to see that its up to her to EARN you. Not for you to set the bar low enough to ensure she can step over it. Personally, I think you might benefit from some individual counseling sessions that can empower you to see your own worth again. Once you realize that you really can do much better, it will become much easier to set those boundaries and shrug off her antics.

So what is your plan now?

DD,
I like to see it this way with the advice you are receiving - many of us would not like to see you back here in a couple of years with DDay3. That is why it's so important to set the bar high now - like the previous posts mentions. If you want to work with you WW then more has to be done than what was done the last time in order to prevent it from happening again.

"Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for each other exceeds your need for each other."

GG

ahhh, the triggers come marching in.

There is a huge difference this time. AS WW is in NC, has disclosed all about her A, is transparent in all ways.
Is working herself to rebuild this marriage.

But regardless, those triggers are always worse than D-Day.

It's hard to seperate last time and now. Not sure I should really when I comes to my feelings.

But the triggers...they do march on... stomping down your self-esteem.

Wow how deceived can one man be. It is like a week and you're sure she is in NC and is transparent. Oh Its different now. Right. She won't ever cheat again.

** a reminder to posters to offer even contrary comments respectfully please **

DD,
Did you get the polygraph done? If not, you simply CANNOT make the above statement. Please protect yourself from being here again in the near future for the exact same reasons. You are being very naive to grant a serial adultress the benefit of the doubt. She has told you a few things, and you are ready to claim she is in NC, completely honest, and transparent. Please use the wisdom of the veterans on this board to help you understand that it doesn't work like that. Just from reading the other stories on this board, I can tell you that the odds of a woman like your wife just owning up to everything and changing over night are astronomically low.

I honestly don't understand why you are doing this to yourself. You need a foundation to build on.

After a trigger filled afternoon and early evening, WW sat and listened to many of the things bothering me. We talked, not just me talking at her.
That's a huge change.

Spoke about her last A. How rotten she acted. That many of those actions led to this happening again. Her being unwilling to address any issues of our marriage head on; rather, ignore them and hope all works out in the end.

She still has a tendancy to get defensive in conversation. So there were lots of starts and stops. Long silences. As I refuse to argue or let the tone of any conversation go negative.

Interesting unrelated thing happened. Youngest daughter had a problem at school (3rd grade so nothing serious). But while sorting it all out with the principal, the principal made a comment that struck a chord. She's got to understand the seriousness of her actions and how they effect everyone around her, but also needs to understand that once she's been punished that we hold no grudges.
An interesting parallel. Does the WS get punished? They lose a degree of freedom. They are not trusted for a very long time. They have to earn back those things. But is that the punishment. As adults we don't get that sort of punishment often provided we don't break any laws. Even with an affair. Regardless of the outcome of the marriage there isn't a lot of punishment going on.
Oddly the person who feels most punished is the BS. Not so much a "woe is me" statement, more along the lines that the BS is victimized and sees little the way of....not sure the word I'm looking for????
In so many cases the best they can hope for is a restored marriage and for the pain to fad.

She is defensive, because she believes that she should be able to have these affairs. That's why she is defending herself. She is getting angry, so she can take back control of the marriage, and get you to back off. You refuse to let things get negative. That's what she is depending on. She already got you to stop considering divorce by saying she wants to work on your marriage. Your first discussion about it, she gets angry and defensive. She will keep this up till you back off. She will lay low for a few months. Then she will go back to what she was doing.

If there is not change in her attitude, There will be no change in her actions.

I think the thing I learned the most is that my gut feeling was not me going crazy. You are victimized because the world tht you thought you understood was fiction and the truth was something you can not bargained for. I believe this is what most BS go through in their head.

I would use the word CONSEQUENCE rather than punishment. The consequence of untrustworthy behavior is a lack of trust. If she wants to be trusted, she has to earn it. That is not a punishment.

Dalton, I hope that you see she is not serious here, but then again, neither are you. All this discussion is for naught. All you need is her agreement and proactive ACTION to the things on the list I showed you. That is the only hope you have for recovery. She will have to work her [censored] off to prove herself and she is not willing to do that.

Just know, that this is all more of the same, and if you agree to stay with her on these terms, then you must accept that your life will be more of the same.

That is the only hope you have for recovery.
[/quote]

Isn't that paraphrased from Star Wars?

----------------------
I'm doing things as is my WW to improve our marriage. Is it in the militant style presented here as my only hope? Partially.
But everyone has their agenda's

ENOUGH of that....

about me.
The panic attacks are in full swing (right on schedual if I'm not mistaken). Sometimes from obvious trigger. Other times, seemingly for no reason (beyond the obvious). I really hate this.
Despite all sorts of honesty, there's no stopping the fear.

What about the self stuff? I can't seem to stop getting down on myself. Not blaming myself for WW's actions. Just a mild depression. At least that is a positive thing. I'm not mired in a deep depression. Don't recommend that to anyone. That really sucks.

Isn't that paraphrased from Star Wars?

----------------------
I'm doing things as is my WW to improve our marriage. Is it in the militant style presented here as my only hope? Partially.
But everyone has their agenda's

ENOUGH of that....

about me.
The panic attacks are in full swing (right on schedual if I'm not mistaken). Sometimes from obvious trigger. Other times, seemingly for no reason (beyond the obvious). I really hate this.
Despite all sorts of honesty, there's no stopping the fear.

What about the self stuff? I can't seem to stop getting down on myself. Not blaming myself for WW's actions. Just a mild depression. At least that is a positive thing. I'm not mired in a deep depression. Don't recommend that to anyone. That really sucks.
[/quote]

DD,
If you ignore everyone's advice and post flippant responses, no one is going to take the time to bother with your thread. You came here. We didn't come to you. The MB plan is not militant, its logical. I'm going to bow out of this thread until a BH who wants to change his situation actually shows up.

It is difficult to continue to support someone that is so self deceived. He is isolated and is willing to take any hope she gives, no matter how thin and transparent. Very sad.

DD,
Militant is a strong word. Some who post here actually have professional credentials. Other's have been in your shoes more than once and they have discovered that the Harley concepts have proven to work, including myself. You can't fix an engine if you don't know where the problem is. You want to fix your M but your don't know where the problems are. In order to keep the engine running you need to do preventative maintenance. How can you do preventative maintenance if you don't have the tools? The concepts here are the tools.

I was in your shoes - I blamed myself. I don't do that anymore because I'm not the one who chose to cheat.


GG

turning into a major AO day. Not cool

gg615, I don't blame myself. Oh sure, like many of the BS I may have contributed to the circumstances that led to WW's A.

Contrary to most of the posts, I've set out the rules for WW. And she's accepted them.
No I'm not playing the polygraph game. Firstly it's no more reliable than intuition. It's a fact I don't trust my wife.
Secondly, it sets up a situation that I can't even begin to put words around.

Anyhow, crappy day. with AO's Will likely ask WW to leave again for a few days for a cool off.

Nice day outside, but not really in the mood to do any work. Sorta sucks.

How will you be able to check on her. Make her exchange cell phones with you. Tell her that she is not to erase any of her text messages or call history. Will you at least take that precaution?

DD,
You said youd down on yourself - why?

GG

Bad "Will likely ask WW to leave again for a few days for a cool off."

Can't reconnect when you are apart. Makes her vuneralbe to back sliding to OM.

Didn't come to asking WW to leave. We got the AO's under control finally.

I sat down, re-read most of SAA. I forgot how much the intial burden is on the BS.

DD, the initial burden here needs to be HERS since you have already gone through this before. Now it is all her job.

How is she doing?

Yes and no the burden is her's. Yes it's her's as I've told her what is required regarding honesty and openness. She's doing/done that. She is being open with all her actions.

For my part, the emotional stuff, the AO's, and the demands (on my part) are hard to control.
Not so much being angry at her, more I get worked up by the 1001 daily triggers. Some days more or less so than others.

To make this work, it does require a lot of effort on my part. Being the BS, I really want to put all the burden on her. That won't work.

A lot of stuff between us has been discussed. We are both trying to limit it somewhat. If we start talking about her A (past and present), she goes on the defensive. Part of me wants to demand we talk about it ALL right now. Part of me knows, too much will put her in a fight-or-flee mode.
In the past, her long fog and my deep depression found us both tired and beaten. Most of the big NO-NO's that a BS shouldn't do I did.
I'm a tad more emotionally detached this time around. Not wanting the marriage to fail. But unwilling to allow myself to go through what I did before. In hindsight, the only thing that would have worked was plan B. I was unwilling to go that far, as I felt that just gives the WS what they really want.

OK. So I didn't do right last time.

I don't know how to handle the rough days. Not without wanting to ask WW to sit with me while I relate my feeling. But, that's not working. I see that. So that's the demands part...that leads to the AO's. I've got my arms around the disrespectful judgements. Or maybe that is a side effect of needing to talk.

Hence, as the BS this is a huge burden. Regardless of how much my WW is putting her best foot forward.
And no, it's not wishful thinking on my part.

This does not sound like someone who is even remotely invested in recovery, DD. This is a woman who is only invested in getting you off her back. Does she understand that radical honesty is the only solution? Have you told her this is your condition?

If she is not even willing to be forthcoming about her affairs, how do you imagine this is ever going to work? That is step 1. If you can't even get past the first step, don't you see that this is going nowhere?

This is not like a one time affair, DD. Recovering from this will take extraordinary measures on her part to change her life. That has to start with radical honesty that comes willingly, not as a result of your grilling.

This is not a person who is invested in recovering her marriage. This is a person who just got caught AGAIN and is only invested in keeping you off her back. BIG DIFFERENCE.

DD, this is not going to magically fix itself on its own. This is not an aberration of character with your wife where just ending the affair will do the trick. This is a WAY OF LIFE with your wife, and the only thing that will save your marriage is if your wife makes dramatic personal changes. BY CHOICE.

You do not have the power to change her. You only have the power to protect your own boundaries from her. And if she will not do even the most basic things necessary to repair the horrific damage done to your marriage, what makes you think anything will change?

Dalton, this is much more than being defensive. SHE IS DEFENSIVE BECAUSE SHE IS UNWILLING. She is DEFENDING LIES, not producing TRUTH.

She is unwilling, Dalton... She is unwilling to do the most basic thing required to salvage your marriage.

I'm checking up on her contantly. Not telling her so. But checking her honesty. I have access to her phone records. Calling after her at work to see what/when she doing things.

It's not a matter of getting me off her back. I ask her questions about what she's doing. But limit the questions about what she's done. She's open about what she's doing and thus far it's held up to my scrutiny.
That IS NOT WISHFUL THINKING ON MY PART. I don't trust her. She is aware of that. She knows the ...............

Mel, you are making me defend her. I don't want to do that. My eyes are open. Could she still be involved? 90% certain she's not. In contact? Same deal, 90% certian she's not.

Could she be faking all the honesty? Sure. But the conditions I've set are if she's in contact or she's lying and I find out about it now or later....SHE'S OUT, WE'RE DONE. No flip-flopping. No second chances. I'm willing to invest the effort if she's willing to be open and honest.
I've insisted on several EP's and she's following through with those (NC w/ OM, NC with any men on a personal level, no unaccounted for time, access to her phone records....and a few other personal things)
The real knife edge is with Plan A.

You put me in a pickle, too much mistrust and I won't be able to function. It will consume me. Not enough and I may as well put blinders on.

I never claimed that things are hunky-dory. Far from it. It's a tough row to hoe. If you think I'm really missing the boat, fine. But really, I've been here before. I knew last time when she was lying. I knew last time she was still in love w/ OM and there was nothing I could do about it. I plugged away with questions and more questions until I got the honest answers.
What I'm doing is NOT talking about her A. Because at this point I know plenty. AND, at this point it's causing issues. I am questioning her actions and following up on my own.

I'm trying to follow a plan here. I'm not just accepting things at face value. But hell, you're making me defend my every action and my WW's.

This stuff sucks goat a$$. Cut me a bit of slack here, or let me fail and say "I told you so" later.

No, she is not faking honesty, she doesn't have to fake it. She has told you openly she is UNWILLING TO BE HONEST:


She is unwilling to be honest about her affairs. That is not honesty. Not even close.



This is not true.

Ok Dalton, one more opportunity to ignore me. You need to do a surprise phone switch on her. Make her take yours, tell her no erasing messages and texts. If the OM or a number that you don't know calls. Let the message take it. And then play it back. You may find out something that at this point you are trying to avoid.

My question to you, DD, is are you willing to go forward in this knowing she is UNWILLING to be honest about her affairs?

Are you willing to accept the marriage on those terms?

Mel,

Reading your comments, I would say "you" should go back and re-read SAA.
I'm not perfect so I'm flubbing up a bit. But the steps I've been following are correct.

A BS MUST prove to themselves over and over "independantly" that the WS isn't still lying. I'm doing that and will continue to.

There is no blind faith here. My eyes are open. I'm more aware of the past than anyone, WW included.


Therefore based on your comments, you're either purposley trying to upset me (rile me up, or cause me to doubt myself) or you've got no clue what you are talking about.

No clue ???

Dalton:

Mel can get under your skin because she picks at the scab that most nneds to be picked.

Sorry. That's what she does so well.

It's your life. There are your shoes.

Your WW was no interest in being Open and Honest, and will not.

Your building, slowly, to establish your boundaries. I commend you for that. Nothing wrong with being encouraged to "Move Faster!"

Life WILL get better.

LG

Ok, so what is your plan?

I mean it sounds like you are trying to reach some "steady state" in your M, where your WW will no longer use leaving you as her final offer or back up plan. Monitoring her for NC, meeting EN's and avoiding LB's in hopes that at some point it will "tip the scales" so that you can feel confident she is more motivated to address her issues instead of fleeing. Sort of a wait till they "grow up" plan.

Philosophically, I can see the appeal of this plan, because it seems like they are so close to "getting it" that it would be tragic to throw it all away right when they are on the cusp of "growing up." "Pushing" them just seems to send things in the wrong direction. Finally, it has the appeal that it seems it will be easier for the WW to work through these issues once they are "grown up."

Practically, this approach has some major drawbacks. The first, is that the WW seldom "grows up" without being pushed. Not pushing them tends to have the opposite effect. It enables them to become more childish. Second, even if they did grow up, working through their issues becomes harder. Most times they get more entrenched. Lastly, it's just brutal on the BS.

What this really becomes, this waiting for them to grow up, is that while you are waiting, it is a M where the WW sets the terms. Any issue, condition, or requirement that violates what the WW is comfortable with will be rejected with a "take it or leave it" response.


Thus, I think this question is valid. Perhaps it should be posed as how long are you willing to accept a M on those terms? If in 6 months your WW is unwilling to discuss the A, is that acceptable?

You aren't in recovery until she is truthful about her past. It establishes that she still cares more about herself, than she does about you or the M. Which means, your M is in "limbo".

Now, if you are okay with your M being in limbo for some period of time, okay. I think sometimes, that's just the way it is.

But usually, what gets people going here is when people deny that their M is in limbo, when it obviously is. Or worse, when they know its in limbo, don't like it, but don't want to do what it takes to fix that.

Dalton,

There is a thread on GQII, 'False Recoveries, need voices of experience' by Pepperband.

If you read it you will see just how easy it is to have a false recovery, even when people think they are doing things right.

Much can be learned from that thread, if you have faith in what others are saying.

rprynne,
my "plan" isn't mine it's from SAA.

WW is in NC OM. WW has been honest/open regarding of the details of the affair. YES I'VE GOT MORE QUESTIONS...But I'll adress that later. I'm proving to myself that what she tells me daily is true. Not everything. But enough that if I catch wind of one lie I'll know there are more. There's been nothing since D-day.

I'm under no allusions here, I don't think I'm in recovery, nor will I be for some time.
I'm slowly trying to meet her EN's and will begin to spoon feed her SAA when I'm sure she won't look at it like a vampire does a cross.

Fact is WW messed up. Twice. It's not my place to daily remind her of that. I've told her what "my" conditions are. Right now that's honesty and openness. Yes there's more to come.

As for all the details of her affair, I know most everything that went on. There are some details I don't know. This isn't rocket science though. An affair is a dirty secret thing built on lies and more lies. Honesty is built on trust. In the midst of AO's and what-not forced honsty becomes a LB. Yeah, I'm sure Mel, would laugh at me for that comment. "WHAT ARE YOU NAIVE AND STUPID TOO?" But I get it. It's not giving WW a pass. It's giving WW time to get back into the marriage properly so that she's doing these things because she wants to, because she sees the vaule in the truth. The value they bring to the recovery of the marriage.

Dr. Harley is right about honesty, that no matter what, the BS is better off knowing. It builds trust. The timing of that honesty is a critical parameter.

I'm not naive.

My comment this AM was simply after re-reading SAA, the BS has a heavy burden. In the midst of trying to meet WS's EN's and avoid LB, the BS must manage their resentment and pain.
SO BAM a trigger hits! and a BS wants to confront WS about it. It's a difficult matter. To the WS it may feel like a disrespectful judgement or demand to speak.

There are many things I won't do. Not to protect my WW. But because I don't feel they're respectful.

I don't think I'm in recovery yet. Not by a long shot.

I only know a few things right now, WW is in NC w/ OM, and thus far in every double check I've done (like 10-12 of them so far) she's been honest. That doesn't make WW a stand up gal. It only means she may be serious when she says she wants to save the marriage.

There is an ELEPHANT in the room:




and then...



These contradictory statements were all made on this thread. can you explain this, Dalton? She is unwilling to be HONEST about her affairs yet you say "I'm willing to invest if she's willing to be open and honest." That doesn't jive.

Is that OldeSpeak TruthTalk?

check this out: serial cheaters

I see your point that the statements seem contradictory.

However, "I" feel that before a couple can fully recover they have to rebuild trust. That starts with the honesty and openness. Okay?
I'm not even starting to recover my marriage. I know that. Or if it's happening is baby steps. With some chutes and ladders tossed in.
Not defending WW postion, but she's unwilling to contatntly speak about her A. As most new BS (and me returning) know, that's all they want to talk about. The how, the why, the WTF were you thinking?, the whole shootn' match. THE WS DOESN'T want to talk about that.
IMO, there's got to be some middle ground. If the WS sees A talk as a LB then it's pretty hard to talk about it 24/7! If the BS wants to talk about it 24/7 and can't that's a LB too.
My marriage needs talk about the past and present A. There are/were unresolved issues.

Again, not defending WW, I don't think she's a serial cheat. I could be wrong. After reading the post you linked/bumped. I'm not inclined to think so. She screwed up royally twice. It was selfish, rotten etc etc. But MY failure to address all of our issues after her last A is part of why we are here again. It not my fault she cheated. That's all on her. I was beaten and gave up and settled for what I could get last time.
Big screw up on my part. But that's where my failings end.

A certian amount of mutual trust needs to be built before I/we delve into the more difficult issues. Again maybe you'd call that naive on my part, but my eyes are open.

I am willing to put in the hard work. Yes the condition is she being open and honest. Yes she's not "ready" to tell me all the details of her affair. Hell, I know most of it. One sexual encounter, a month or two of talking while she was at work, she got pregnant. She got a chemical abortion. Since the night of the sexual encounter she's never contacted OM again. I am pretty sure all of that is the truth. Do I hound her as to the last point. Hell yes. And I check it constantly.
Do I need to know more, I think so. But, I can wait.

If I look at SAA, if I get things in place for she and I so we are ready to begin recovery that is the best I can do.
Start with trust and honesty as a two way street. I need to know she's being honest, she needs to trust I'm going to treat her in a respectful manner. Doens't mean roll over and let her walk over me. But, as SAA says, this should never be a matter excerting power or control over other spouse. I won't allow her that over me (unlike last time), and she needs to realize that's not my motivation.
And yes, shortly she'll have SAA tossed in her lap. Sorta as an....let's use this as a road map.

I'm less emotional, because I am protecting myself and my children. But, I'm also ensuring that she knows that our marriage can be fixed. AND YES, my eyes are open. And she knows that.

DD,

I think it is fair that you consider yourself NOT in recovery. It is probably an accurate assessment. However, you will need to know the answers to your questions before recovery can really happen. More importantly in my mind is that your W is going to have to come up with a plan for the recovery of the marriage. Not your plan, but her plan. At this point a negotiation POJA, can be understaken to discuss what it will really take to create a plan for recovery that you both will be able to follow.

She needs to know that when she is ready to really try recovery she will need to bring a plan to the table.

God Bless,

JL

thats exactly my point. How will trust be built WITHOUT openess and honesty. She is unwilling to be honest. Therefore trust will be impossibe.


A serial cheater is someone who has multiple affairs. That is your wife. She is on her second affair, that you know about.


DD, this all makes it clear to me that you are not serious about recovery at all. Recovery from multiple affairs takes a GLOBAL EFFORT where the WS must make dramatic changes in her own life. Your wife is not interested in any such thing. She refuses to take the first step, which is honesty. She knows you have no boundaries.

I thought it was even more dire than that. Didn't she have 2 affairs that he knows about, and then 2 weeks after he took her back the last time, she was talking to a 3rd guy on the internet about how much of a mistake it was to return to him? Even if she didn't physically consumate that one, it shows just how deep her waywardness runs. She is definitely a serial cheater. DD needs to be more focused on the deep seated character flaw that led to this behavior than whether or not she is in NC now.

I think one fatal flaw in DD's approach to his WW is that he assumes if he doesn't push her too hard now, she will volunteer to resurrect this painful information later on when things are getting better between them. DD...throw that idea out of your head right now. It is not going to happen. Your WW will use that as an excuse NOT to talk about the things you need to talk about. The truth is not a LB. All you are really doing right now is helping her to avoid the real consequences. The logical end result of that is that she won't learn what she really needs to learn to protect you from further adultery.

If you don't believe what everyone here is telling you, why don't you consult with the harley's. Or is your wife blocking you from marriage counseling as well?

ARRRGGGHHH!

Could ya'll at least cut me a little slack here! I'm trying!

I'm holding my WW accountable for her actions. She IS NOT getting a free pass back into the marriage. This isn't let by-gones-be-by-gones. This is serious shi$.

WW by is making changes. Is being open and honest. I've said that 20 times now.

About the only positive advice I've gotten is negotiation POJA. Which I was going to do at the time I "tossed SAA in her lap" Okay crappy choice of words. Spank me again. I need a bit more abuse.

I keep being put in a postion where I feel I must defened WW's actions. The heck with that! I don't want to. They were selfish and dispicable.
With calling me a screw up:
Tell me how holding her accountable for her actions, insisting on the truth (and checking on her), requiring openness and honesty, limiting LB's, trying to meet her EN's is not doing what I should be?

That is straight from SAA.

Do I expect her to make other changes? Yes
Do I expect her to tell me of those? Yes
About her plans for those? Yes

Rome wasn't built in a day. I'm not in recovery and therefore I don't expect instant solutions. This marriage is FUBR!

Mel, et. al.... I know you've got it in you to give me contructive advice without knocking me down. Without using my words to trip me up. If you can't ignore my posts and assume I'm wallowing in self pity. (Granted, I do that from time to time).

DD,

Maybe it would help us to understand where you are coming from if you could describe how you are holding her accountable for her actions and requiring honesty from her?

It doesn't seem that you are doing that but it is easy to miss the whole picture. Some specifics might help in terms of what you mean by holding her accountable, and what does it mean to require something?

Geez DD, I gave you some constructive advice about self respect and dealing with abuse, which IMHO cut to the core of your problem. But you didn't respond.

I find it frustrating posting to you and others report this too. So I took your advice and stopped posting.

I suggest you start listening to others' experiences and acting on some of the advice you've been given, or at least respond to it.

You're not listening!

I am taking advice. Taking it to heart.

MEL your skank post hit home yesterday. In positive way. Spoke with WW about how she needs to change the way she thinks about such things. That a man hitting on her or flirting w/ her is really declaring up front what he thinks of her. Easy-sleezy, has no respect for her, thinks she's got no respect for herself....etc etc.

She was upset, not mad, upset as she'd never looked at it that way. Told her she needed to shift the way the feels about such things. That feeling flattered is really a reflection of her own character. Then went on to tell her that any man doing that (starting any sort of relationship in that manner) obviously doesn't respect her. AND was really declaring that from the get-go.
She was upset and cried.
It wasn't about knocking her down. Throwning her A in her face. It was about showing her a way to change her thinking in a manner that's positive.

Mel, you can tell me over and over the burden is on her. I can agree. But in the end if you've got someone who can't find their way back into the light from where they are, and you leave them to do all that alone, you aren't helping them at all.
You can't just tell someone to change and not give them a road map.

She spoke more about her A(s), after realizing that she can trust me. After realizing that my aim is to rebuild the marriage, the trust, and love.

AND THAT HAS BEEN MY POINT ALL ALONG.

I'm not looking for status quo. Nor am I under the impression that you can catch more flies w/ honey.... AND even if "I" feel there was movement in the right direction last night, don't think I'm in any sort of recovery yet. Tonight or tomorrow I'll have to deal with POJA.

SO thanks again for the skank post...

Things that suck in this BS state of mind:

favorite foods don't taste good
can't listen to music or watch a movie
can't consentrate to work
can't work out
never feel like I'm caring enough for kids (even though I am)
Being alone isn't a good idea, but don't like being around people
Heart races for no reason
Feel like a robot so often, just going through the motions
Fun and happiness aren't a priority

My favorite "holiday" of the year! and I'm not even participating. That's a real bummer.

Been there, bud.

The only upside is that you lose unwanted pounds.

Other than that, it all sucks.

Surround yourself with support.

Bad day.
Sat down did some reading. SAA mostly.

Being a unwilling re-tread here, SAA is a formula for getting a marriage back on track.

But what it lacks, what all the MB material lacks is information for the BS to let them know that it's okay to feel how they do. SAA is sterile in that respect. BS's go through hell. They, have feelings they can't descrbe. They don't know if there is something wrong with them. There's no formula for that. There's nothing to tell them, yeah, you are going to have bad days. They will take the form of X, Y, and/or Z.
You are going to feel helpless, no matter how much you empower yourself. You will doubt your self-worth and your every action.
You will sit on a fence in fear, regardless of what your WS does.

Depending on a person's support network, they could be getting all sorts of bad advice.

What's really rough is a support network who clubs you like a baby seal! Or chases you with pitchforks and torches like Frankenstien's monster.

DD,

I have not clubbed any baby seals (today at least), but I'm not sure what you think support means. This is a group of equals and support means telling you our perspectives from our experience. Support does not mean saying nice things to make you feel better while accomplishing nothing (or worse).

I am sorry you are feeling low. I have been there and it does get easier over time.

Who is the baby seal??

I think DD is down on himself again and this site is his punching bag and that's okay.

GG

Well I do get down. Depression is part of what a BS goes through. As is mistrust, questioning self worth, questioning WS, obsessive thoughts....there's quite a laundry list of feelings and emotions.

Reading another book late last night (NJ Friends), I realized there is a lot in there that supports the feelings a BS goes through.
Almost to a T, describes my emotions. I find the book short on a real way to get the marriage back on track and to keep it there.
I guess a BS must pull from many sources what they need. Churn it all together and come up with a plan that works for them.

Still, knowing all this stuff, and being able to deal with it is another thing.

I did laugh at a passage (because it's ironic). A BS is crying in bed, WS is thinking "oh no here we go again" The WS always want to supress the A and it's consequences, while the BS wants to get it all out, express their feelings. A further point, in normal times its a woman who is more expressive and a man who is more supressive. Yet after an A, regardless of sex, the WS is supressive and the BS expressive.

On the home front WW is being supportive, AND expressive. Still being open and honest. Not getting defensive of me questioning all her actions. Explaining them, showing proof. Being transparent. No, not in recovery. I am just trying to get "our" duck in a row such that we can move in that direction when there is a level of trust I can live with.
No I don't trust her, and she knows that. She realizes why, and IS NOT tossing it back in my lap saying "that's for you to deal with" which was what happened last time.

SO, mini-goal for me today is to try not to obsess too much today. Mini my butt! That's a huge goal.

It's good you found some comfort in the book. I was the BS but I was the one who was suppressing and my FWH was expressing. I just didn't want anything to do with my H then. We actually went to MC before we found this site. I think we were fortunate to find a MC that knew how to work with us. My H liked this site better. We did the steps here too. So far our R is going very well. I'm glad your WW if making an effort. Do you think she would post here? She could start her own thread.

thanks gg615....

-----------------------------

begin daily venting rant.

I read things like it takes 2 years to "get over it" Arrggh.
I can tell people that's true. Oh sure some things in the marriage get better. Maybe in that time you become closer to your spouse. But the price is so high.
Regardless of all my personal failings do I really deserve this?

Music I normally listen to, the lyrics will suddenly come shooting out into my brain. Forget that I've heard this song 100 times, This AM, listening to MP3 player here at work, I've got hundreds of songs on it. My Immortal by Evanescence. F- me! Just what I needed. I liked the song for the womans vocalization, just the sound of it. Then it had to get all complicated with lyrics. (laughing at myself...yet again).

Can't sit on the fence forever. But also can't make a choice when you are over-wrought with emotion.

Try to do things with WW, who of course loves it. I swear it's always a win-win for the WS. They go from one relationship where they are having their EN's met....bounce back to the marriage only to have them met again by the truck load.
Don't get me wrong WW is doing everything she should. Even meeting many of my EN's without even knowing what an EN is. YES I gotta get on that pretty soon.
I had asked to have my threads here deleted. But I guess, the MB-Gods don't do that. Hate to introduce WW to MB, then have her see all my emotions laid bare. Not sure I want to share "this" with her. Would make me feel far too vunerable.
So, in a nutshell another rotten day where I can't work, won't be eating much, won't be getting any sleep tonight. Timing is about right for this too. Last time, it was just about 3 week in before I really took a nose dive. Hello nose dive remember me.

Manic and frantic (are those the same thing), sad and sullen (those are the same).
I would never put myself in a postion where I would have an affair, but I do see the appeal of rushing out and doing so. Something different, something you know is seperate and quasi-safe (only because you have no expectations of a real relationship). No, not my thing. Hell most times I have to be hit with a crowbar to even notice a woman is hitting on me. Who's the really dummy.

I'm very glad the kids are doing good. One huge thing I told WW was that if there was a single voice raised regarding this subject in front of the kids I would pack her stuff for her. She's abided by that as well. Not the point, the kdis are doing well. Okay they are being themselves! Just the normal incidents.

You know what really breaks my heart? I do everything for them. But still when I get home, I hardly get even a "Hi Dad" from them. WW comes home it's a race to go see her. That sucks eggs!

The debilitating effects of all this are beyond comprehension. A normal life, then wham!

Hence my daily worry that none of this is worth it.


I read Steve Harley's article about co-dependancy. With a couple of generations of selfish people running around....there is a big need for more of that. More of the selfless giving. Not just husbands and wives....neighbors, friends...(not in my case) but also family.

Lesson learned from sometimes, it's better to keep it all inside. This tame venting is harmless. It doesn't show the darker side of things. What so many BS really feel.

Anyone ever see a deer (or other animal) that's been hit squarly by a Semi on the highway? You know, that smear that goes for 1/4 mile. That's how I feel is like that deer.

But what's worse, when people drive by, what they feel is revulsion.

Knowing that is almost worse.

QUESTION:

On really bad days with LB's flying around, what's the best way to move past it?

In negotiation you name the demon.

If it is a DJ, OA, insult - name it. You do not accept it. Persistence is rewarded by withdrawal in person or response. The trick is to be wary that one is not committing the crime.

Today, I was partialy....no, I was the one commiting the crime.

WW understood my bad day. Then, she made a small comment. Not negative. I was already in a funk. So I tossed her last affair in her face, with something to the effect.

That if I had killed myself (I was in a really really bad state last time), I wouldn't be going through this now and she'd be off with her former lover, and things would be just fine for her.

I admit that was over the line. This crap-ola is tough. I've got a ton of old stuff, plus the new.

WW is still trying. Despite my gloomy days.
Things are totally different. Last time she was head over heals in love.


My question still is, after a shippy comment like that, how do I move forward. I am wrong, but I'm not. I'm entitled (I hate saying that as I feel "entitlement" is a huge problem w/ out society) to have emotions. The hurt and pain I own. I try not to wallow in them. But they are dark emotions and they can (DO) take over.

I'm sorry for my LB but not my bad day.
None of it makes any sense.

ANYONE got any advice w/ this?

What suck is meds make me loopy and bother me worse than not taking them. Working out is really bad, as soon as my heart gets pumping, I get filled with rage. I could sit down and consume massive amounts of booze, but that's a really bad idea.
Tried meditation and therapy last time. Can't meditate, because as soon as I settle down, my mind drifts to ...."stuff".
And Therapy...."why do you feel that way?" "WHY THE HECK DO YOU THINK I FEEL THIS WAY?" Or lets's try meditation..

Sad state of affairs (groan that was a bad pun).....

I went back to your first post and it looks like you are still in the first couple of weeks. When did your WW establish NC? When did you discover the affair? The first month is a month filled with pain, nausea, inability to focus, and tears. At least that is what I remember. It does get better. The only advice that I can offer that might make it easier for both of you (she is going through pain too) is to try to not do any lovebusters and work on meeting each other emotional needs. I haven't read your entire thread but will also advise you to expose to everyone that may have an influence on your wife as well as OMW or girlfriend if there is one. You also need to get all the details of the affair from your WW. You don't want to find something new out every couple of weeks. New discoveries will reset your recovery clock. Try to go easier on yourself. Don't get your heart pumping so hard if it triggers rage. Try yoga or pilates. Take a walk. You can't avoid negative thoughts at this point. It is just part of the junk. Just try not to run her off with your negative moods. You do have a right to be outraged but it won't make your marriage stronger. She has to go through withdrawal first. Come here and vent instead.

Yup, know the feeling. I'm in my second month and don't feel like that anymore. Not sure when it went away. I felt like poop on my husband's shoe that he scraped off and tossed aside most of last month. My friends described me as run over and left for dead by my husband when they saw me last month. Somewhere along the way it went away and I didn't even realize it until I read your analogy. Just keep getting up...one foot in front of the other...you can do it....

WW was in NC before I knew of the A. I found out because she got pregnent. I found out about a month after NC.

I know most everything about the A. I suppose a BS can never know it "all". But what is left is really WW's feelings and emotions, not details. I know most of her feelings. Even though she's not told me.

What makes this hard is that this is the second A. There are times I want to end it.

But, despite me alter-ego as a baby seal getting clubbed, there are a lot of positive things in my marriage. Not just the kids.
That's what makes this so hard. yeah WW messed up. BIG TIME.
TWICE no less.
But, as they say "with all this horse manure there's gotta be a horse in here someplace"

OR

For all my pain and suffering, I can still see things working out.

It's lot of work. Work I'm not really totally able to do right now. The degree of detachment needed is huge. I can't do that right now. Hence my really bad days feeling like road pizza.

I worry a lot about running WW off with my emotions. For her part, she seems to be taking it. But I'm not sure for how long she will continue.
She asked me today, why don't we just get a D? Then you won't have to deal with all this.
Told her, I will still have to deal with it, just more alone than I am now. She feels I'm using her as a punching bag at times. Even though I don't throw her A in her face screaming WHY WHY WHY. Just my low feelings make her feel my motivation is to hurt her.
That's an issue, as I usually ask "WHY is this about YOU?" "It's about me and my feelings, not you and your actions."

That's me being my most respectful. I'm in pain, but not throwing her errors in her face, just asking for her support with the betrayal. Sorta a razors edge.

Bad boy, I did grab a glass of wine.
Kids are watching a movie. Don't need Daddy tonight. ~sad~

WW isn't happy with my feelings about her job. I don't like her going to work where she is now. But, not sure any change of job would make a difference. Yeah, she changed jobs a few years ago.

She hurt me today when she said, "I took this job, because I needed a career, in case you ever left me." Things like that never enter my mind.
I guess it's like my whole approach to money and material things...not a priority. I've worked since I was 13. Moved away from home at 18. Been supporting myself since. Never relied on anyone. As an electrical engineer, it's easier to not worry about money, but I worked for all that before I met her.
Even if I lost my job I wouldn't worry. I'm not afraid of loss of material stuff. Maybe that's a LB for her. But she's never had a want or need not provided for.

funny people who work hard for what they get seem to be less worried about the loss. Not sure why.

LOL WW is pissed at me because I lost about 10lbs in the past couple of weeks. Not because I didn't need to, not because it's an issue, more because she's always trying to loose a little bit.
I told her I didn't recommend my weight loss program. Too many side effects. Funny....but not really.

One more funny, turned on the radio tonight while I was making dinner for the kids, that frigging song by Nelly from 2004 was on
OVER AND OVER. WHAT THE HECK!!!???? That song was on the radio like every 20 mins when WW had her first affair. Couldn't escape it. It was everywhere!!! That song should be banned.
Sat and listened to it shaking my head. There was another one from back then, a country tune about two guys in a bar, one upset about cheating....can't remember it...good thing!

Guess I should check on the kids....

hope no one is really reading this, it's just my outlet. The only safe thing.

DD,
Are you starting to feel resentful and that is causing you to snap back at your WW? Maybe things you were suppressing are starting to come out now. You made a comment in one of your earlier posts that you thought sometimes it's better to keep things in - but you know when you do this you become a bubble ready to burst. You also wrote you read it takes about two years "to get over it." I think you'll find some of us here will say you never got over it. You learn to deal with it and put it away. I'm in my second year and I don't feel I got over it. You can't erase the memories implanted in your brain by a WS. It's all in the choices you make in how you deal with it. Also DD - I disagree about you not wanting your WW to see how vulnerable you are. You own these feelings you've written about. The one thing I've learned from my experience is that I don't want to hold back from my FWH. This could have contributed to my M problems in the first place. I don't hold back anymore and neither does my H.



GG

GG

Yes and No as to me being resentful. yes it hurts, no I don't feel hate.
I do agree that my supressing things isn't helpful. Many years ago I wasn't the greatest husband. No A's or anything like that. I just wasn't what I could have been. I hate myself for that. But, I did a 180. I've changed. tried to do/be everything for WW. She became the ultimate taker.
Then just took it all for granted. Then had two A's.

I guess, I need to start talking about that. Then a few other things. You are right about the bubble thing. That's totally me.

I was over her A from 4 years ago. In fact, I even thought to myself this past winter while WW was in the midst of the most current A. that I was glad I didn't have to worry about such things any more. That's vomit inducing irony.

I'll try talking more. But not so much as to be a pest.

I like the way you put that Imagine. I said the same thing earlier using many times more words.

Regrettably, DD is in transmit mode.

Straight from the book "Negotiating for results"

I'm not a politician but it's nice to know the rules.

So then your wife lied to you again by telling you it was a ONS? I guess it was kind of silly to think she only did it once with him. When did she disclose the rest? Or has she?

And a lot of us here (especially me) would more likely be the pest.

Different OM. Different situations. Previously, she was all fogged up. The whole package. The only issue w/ WW last A. Things that led to the A. never changed. I tried, for long time, she was in a fog for 8 or 9 months. Living with that, and doing a poor plan A is a real challenge.

She's disclosed a ship load.
This A. was a ONS, sexually. The other stuff that led to that lasted about 2 months.

I doubt there is much of significance that I don't know. WW's emotions and feelings. But that is coming out now.

-------------------------------
WW came home last night. Said she was having a hard time dealing with my rollercoaster ride. Dealing with me. In that respect, I left it to her to descide if she could handle it. Told her, there are going to be more days like yesterday with me/us.
That's the nature of the beast. She did what she did. She chose to betray this marriage. Regardless of our failings in the marriage, I didn't choose to be cheated on, nor did I cheat.
Told her, what I needed is for her to be with me 100% as I go through the spectrum of emotions.

She say's she's trying to do that and support me. But admits it's hard, cause she has bad days too. Right or wrong, I told her the best thing is for us to share everything and go through it all together. That stuffing it away just leads to resentment down the road.

WW may be getting closer to a point where I can "dump" the MB stuff on her. She's not there yet. first chance I get, I will see what she thinks of the POJA. She's getting sensitive to my needs more and more. I'm making her aware, that I know her needs, that I am, and have been meeting many of them. That the major issue is that she's been taking for granted all she has.

See, that is my big issue with the entitlement frame of mind that this country has moved into (might start that as a new thread). So many people expect so much, so many people aren't willing to work for what they get. Like spoiled children.

Was hoping for a good day. Spiral is starting now. Not because of the hurt. Because of the hopelessness of things. Was alone last night, alone today, will be alone all day tomorrow. WW got home late last night tired, will get home around 5 today tired, will get home tomorrow round 5 tired.

My days off and her's never line up. The 15 hour thing works fine if you've got awake and alert time with your spouse.

I'm sad because I don't think things can work out because of this timetable. Not that I'm giving up. But really, how can you expect to make a loving marriage when you can't make time, even when you want to to be together.
That sucks.
ya know, an early saturday AM talk, coffee and breakfast, then some time working round the house together. Time with the kids together.

It's been this way for years. No wonder WW feel into what she did. She's no more in a marriage than I am

I can't see her staying faithful for the long haul, she is just not there enough to have her needs met by you. And she has obviously chosen her job over you and her family. There is just no way to heal a marriage like that. As I said b4. She has a live in babysitter she trusts, and can still have her job where she basically lives another life. You took her back to soon. Again no consequence, no change.

Rough night with WW. She feels beat up by me emotionally.
So, I had to be there for her. Not because I HAD to.
Because that's who I am. Some things can't change.

OH BEFORE I FORGET. THE SMART MONEY IS ON NEITHER.

Okay, back to my shop of horrors....

Even though I'm a mess still. I'm seeing things a tad more clearly. Things about WW. Not all good things. Just about who she is.

I actually figured out why this happened again. WW was in fog for 9 months. By the time she was ready to work on the marriage, I had given up. Just accepted things. Went on trying to make a nice home for the kids.

Oh sure, that wasn't the best choice. But as a beaten man, I didn't know what else to do.

WW is upset that I continue to have thoughts of her last A. I don't think she understands the pain.

Would like to have a nice day, but that's questionable at this point. Sucks to get up in the AM, and know your day is screwed befre your first cup of coffee. Need to toss a bit of Irish wiskey in the coffee. Maybe that'll help.

Today, a big part of me really wants to pack it in. I think WW's hesitations last night amid her having a bad day planted a seed of doubt. Seeds suck.

WW is off to work early again. Won't see her most all this week either.

In that light, maybe that is the best thing.

I need to give that some real thought.

I love my wife.
I care for her.
Don't see myself with another woman.
We get along very well
Know each other very well
Kids love Mom best


She works different hours
Never spend time with her
THE PAST
Did I mention the past?
I deserve a better mate
Her career is important to her
SHE comes first in her life
Kids don't really like me and my parenting style
Kids never come see me when I come home, race to see her
THAT LAST ONE HURTS SO BAD.....

You know, it really sucks. It's 6:30AM, I'm planning dinner for tonight already, got a load of laundry in the dryer already, plus another in the washer behind it, cleaned kitchen, and a dozen other things. In the end, no one cares. I'm a sloppy guy for F-sakes! What the heck???

This is a slippery edge I'm walking right now. As much as I cherish my wife and this marriage, I get nothing out of it.
Affection, respect, support, conversation, SF....they are all hollow and half hearted.

I want WW to meet those needs. But, not sure she will care enough to.

several hours of thinking about this. Not stewing. Just thoughts...

really not sure now. It's not the hurt, the anger, or the betrayal. It's that she's got doubts that she can deal with me.

It's that she's not willing to live with the consequences or her actions.
I am forced to live with those consequences. The chips have fallen.

I see that the WS can walk at any time and wash their hands of the consequences of their actions. The BS can't do that.

Want to call or txt ww, not sure it's worth my effort. It's a transistional week for WW. her schedual is very different.

I'm thinking a week apart is a must. The following week I'm vacation. Then too.

Where I'm weak is that I love my wife. Despite her mistakes.

With children all parents know unconditional love. I've felt that for my wife also. yet when things get rough, she wants to toss in the towel.

It's either demand she be stronger, have stronger convictions about this marriage and me, or split up.

Another weekend day alone.

Near tears, as the kids....don't want to do anything I say. I'm forced to be "mean dad". I hate being the ever present bad guy.

Being a single parent while you are married sucks. It suck dirty pond rocks.
I know for 1000's of years women have done this. being a man doesn't make it any different. just that I also do this and work 40 hours a week makes it tough.

Maybe I should contact the government officials in China, don't they have some way of breaking up clouds? They could drop some silver nitrate (or whatever it is) on the cloud over my head.

when the moment of giving up occurs, when do you know? Bells? Tears? Silence? Just an internal resolve?

It's not what she's doing, it's what she's not doing. Should I be the one to tell her? Should I lay it out. Connect the dots.

Again, I'm back with the whole entitlement thing. People want to follow the path of least resistance. As an electical engineer, I get that 100%. But with life, you can't do that.

With life, the path of least resistance leads to being lazy. It leads to shoddy morals. It leads to sleeping with others. It leads to marriages that suck pond scum.

In the end it leads to D's by the truck load. Which line the pockets of lawyers seeking to get a better suite at the local sports stadium.

I blame myself for not working harder. But I blame every parent out there who raises entitled children who only expect their next present wrapped in a pretty bow.

I'm sad because in the end, with no support from my WW my kids will end up the same way.
Hating me for not allowing them every "advantage".

WW says she wants to die. Hell I can't stomach what the world around me is becoming. An endless breadline of Merry Christmas for all.
There is nothing special. Marriage should be special. the ultimate special thing.

I want that.......sadly I will never have that.

DaltonDad,
I'm really sorry for all your pain. You obviously have needs that are not being met. I feel like your situation is a circle and you always end up where you are right now. I don't feel like you've made progress although you have said your WW is more open this time around. Have you gone back to your first post in this thread and reread the responses. I think that would be a good idea.

GG

I think he has made progress. Just not in the direction he desired. She is showing her true colors. Basically giving up before she starts. She is lazy and selfish. The progress Dalton has made, is he is closer in deciding to dump her. This man is being tormented. First by his cheating wife. Now by her half assed attempt in trying to reconcile. She wants to go back to the life she had b4 discovery, that's obvious.

Daltonm, I want you to consider something. First the problem. Everyone in your life treats you like crap. Your wife, your kids, and your extended family because you won't divorce your wife. Think about this for a moment. I am sure you've heard the song "big yellow taxi" And how Joni Mitchell sings, "don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got till its gone"

You need to call the big yellow taxi. Why? Because your wife and kids lack something that is making their life less then what it should be.......Thankfulness. Your family needs to know what it's like without Dalton to kick around anymore. I am not saying desert them. I am saying, separate. Your wife needs to know what it means to be without you. Your kids need to know what life is like without you. I am sure you will say no to this. But if your family does not learn to appreciate you and the mundane things you do, like washing ,cooking and cleaning. You will be failing to teach them the very thing that will allow them to be happy in the future......Regret and thankfulness. You need to call your family and reconnect with them. Ask if you could live there a while. Make your wife pick up the kids from school and drop them off with you. You have no idea what it means to be appreciated. This could be the most important thing you do FOR THEM. Please consider this. It could save your family.

DD
WHY does everyone in your life treat you so badly? Are they all just mean people? Bad luck?

What else could it be?

Sounds like your first week after dday was completely typical - it really bites!! None of the WS are that great the first couple of weeks. If the affair is over, there is withdrawal and all the fog that comes with it. Remember, they had to detach to have the affair in the first place. Most WSs are detached, angry, ashamed, guilty, selfish, and they don't want to talk about "it". Some get better, some don't. If the affair hasn't ended, it is much worse. It is really hard to be in plan A when you are devastated. It makes it all the harder because the person that has destroyed you is the same person that promised to love and protect you until death. When you need them the most, they can't be there for you. Most of us do not do a perfect plan A. All you can do is keep trying. You can't help but feel like poop in the early stages. It is hard to breathe let alone take all the bs that comes from the newly discovered WS. Do you best but go easy on yourself. I can't tell you how many times my FWS told me during that first month that this was all just too hard. He was hopeless. He couldn't imagine that we would ever be able to get through this. We are getting through this though and it is getting a little easier everyday. Keep trying.

Thanks for the moral support SS2!!! I need that from time to time.


Well, WW and I have had a few good days. Sadly, I think it's going to come to an end here in a few hours. She agree to the POJA. No questions. I thought that was a bit odd. But she did.

Then, I sent her (email) a list of my needs. Yes sometimes it's better to talk about these things. But in this case I wanted to be as clear as possible. I listed my top 3 or 4 needs. Then told her I was willing to meet her needs. She just said, well I feel the same way. Okay... I'll buy that, I was really just talking about affection, me being the most important thing her life, us spending time together, and honesty.

Last night I asked her over dinner, if she thought more about what I sent her. I told her that it was REALLY REALLY important to me. I sorta wanted a nice conversation. She said, I read it really quick, I need to look at it again.

Well, this AM, I took a look at her phone (where I emailed the needs stuff). Those, and all the other messages are gone. Phone records cleared.
There are two issues here. One, I don't really think she's still in the A with OM. I could be wrong, but don't think so. What I think is she knows I'm checking, so to get my goat she's clearing things out contantly.
That's an issue. I asked her about it, she denied it. Just says she likes to keep things cleared out.

The second issue, I'm going to ask her later today if she's re-read the emails. I'm guessing she's going to say yes. Which will mean she's lying. If she doesn't lie, then she'll have just deleted something that was very important to me without giving it due consideration. In either case. This isn't going to shape up to be a nice day. I know this.

It makes me sad because we did have a nice few days. I'm going to have to end this if she lies. Honesty is the the deal breaker these days. ~sigh~

This is the EXACT reason that she should NOT be deleting anything. She should be totally transparent. Couple that with be open and honest, is the only way that YOU will ever get through this.

I find it telling that you think she's messing with you (get your goat). My FWH has not deleted ANYTHING since DDay until I am there with him when he does.

HE understands that deleting emails, text messages, voicemails, phone calls, anything is a boundary and a deal breaker. He understands how important it is for me and our M.

**edit**

bump

I wouldn't throw in the towel so quickly. You are making baby steps. During the affair, your WS lied about everything and was in the habit of covering her lies. She is still going through withdrawal and is still angry. It is very early for both of you. I would still be working plan A and taking her progress to heart. She will still have wayward tendencies for awhile as she moves through withdrawal. I think that a lot of people around here would like the WS to snap in line immediately and do everything right. Most don't. Most of recovered spouses had the same complaints early in their stories. Hang in there and keep working with her. As long as you can verify that the affair has ended and N/C is being maintained, I think you still have hope. It is a process not an instant fix. You still have to fix the issues that caused the affair and the habits that were learned during the affair. That takes time and a lot of work.

DaltonD,
Are you sure there is NC? I agree with previous post that your WW needs to be transparent. If she says there's no contact then she needs to prove it to you by not erasing the phone messages and letting you look at the phone anytime. I would print out the EN questionnaire and give it to her to fill out. You can't do the POJA without knowing the needs and it's just to easy for her to say my needs are the same as yours.

GG

LOL, I did get to read "wakeupcall's" post. Though i didn't respond, I expect I know who that was. Good thing I'm a real life rocket scientist. But it didn't take that.


SS2, thank you again.

Left work work early. Confronted wife. She didn't lie. Told me/ showed me she get's 15 txts a day from the people who work for her. Mostly just work stuff, the odd personal txt. But all okay. She didn't know I was coming home. I looked at her phone. She showed me. Says she has been cleaning it out a bit more, but that the number work txt's has grown in the past few months. Mostly that they all know they can contact her to gripe, change scheduals, and just say hi.

Not really comfortable with that. Told her so. But provided I don't see anything in my random snoops...I can live with that.

Honestly, if she'd lied, I was ready to end things.
glad it didn't come to that.

Told WW if she wanted me to re-send my needs I would, but only if she was in 100%.

Funny thing. I don't buy lottery tickets, don't gamble, don't bet in any shape or form.
Told WW I was betting it all on her. I was putting my faith in her. She knows I don't gamble. Knows why.
Told her the odds were against me on this one, but I was betting on her. She was really touched. Gotta suck to be married to an engineer who can be logical like Spock, but with feelings.

WW out of the blue asked me to stop by her work this eve. Bring the kids. Bought us dinner.
Can't explain how uncomfortable that was. Being it was where she and OM were. But, she wanted me to come. Wanted me there.
I think WW is getting close to ready to jump in w/ both feet. We'll see in the next week or so. if she responds to my needs and tells me hers..I'll have a pretty good idea she's in this marriage.
if she doesn't and reverts to independant behaviour...well it's either more work ahead or pack it in time.

Next few days are going to be odd. We are going to be together more. Not that that is bad. I love it. But it'll be hard to see if she's really looking out for me, or just responding to the attention.

Yeah still a bit skeptical. But I'm doing the right things.
For all the people who have clubbed me and felt I ignored them, I was all in to exposed WW if she lied to me today. I really don't want to humilliate her if I can help it. Those aren't her words as she doesn't even expect that I would expose. Those are mine. Sorry to not always follow the advice given here. Gotta tailor it to me and my values. Right/wrong that's who I am.

WW and I are going to start working out together this weekend. That's a fun thought.

WW is mad I've lost 25 lbs. Well mad is a strong term. Upset. I again told her I don't recommend this weightloss plan to anyone!!!! You don't eat for days on end. heart races about 35% of the day. Can't sleep. Sounds like a white drug that's snorted!? without the emotional baggage.

Wondered tonight how WW would feel if I had had an affair with one of her servers that was 15 years younger. I couldn't do it. would feel like a dirt bag. Feel I should share that with WW. But then it would be me calling her a dirt bag. Not that the average WS isn't all that and a bag of chips

GG, I'm about 95% sure. She was in NC before I found out.

The phone thing is being addressed in a civil way. And she knows I want her needs not just a reflection of mine. I know they can't be the same.
Having read, His/her needs, Love busters, and SAA....I know

I would like to give her these books to read. Problem is, she doesn't like it that I read a ton. Then KNOW stuff. Thinks I'm trying to be superior ...just my nature. really.

If I spoon feed her it may work better.

DaltonDad,
I haven't read your entire thread so fill me in please. Does OM still work with your wife? And if this was a workplace affair, why are you hesitating to expose at work? It is the most effective way to end the affair. I know that you don't want to embarass your wife but don't hide her secret. You have done nothing wrong. The truth is not the problem. Having an affair is the problem. Exposure is a necessary part of plan A. Your wife won't ever jump in with both feet until she has NO contact with OM. I know that you want to be a "nice" guy and respect your wife's pride but she did this to herself. Don't shield her from the consequences of HER actions. It makes the affair too easy.

SS2, OM isn't a co-worker. OM came into WW's workplace. Hit on her and in the end they had a PA. WW has pretty much proven to me there is/has been NC for a couple of months.
Exposure would do nothing. There is no value in exposure when there is already NC. Just to rub her nose in it.
Did it "after a time" w/ her first A. Value there was immediate.

GAHHHHH have a huge desire to smash keyboard right now.


--------------------

Well I really screwed up this time. WW says she doesn't know much about OM. I've been really hung up with this lately. Most all WW's have a bit more invested in an A than just doing it for the sex. That's my WW. She says the PA was a huge mistake. Swears it was a ONS but there was a bit of chatting up and kissing before. After the sex. It ended. Told OM never to come near her again.

Regardless, lets say that's the truth. WW claims it is.
CLAIMED IT.

Well, I don't buy it totally. Been really upsetting me lately. WW has come clean about everything else. My faith in her has been growing. Last night I lost it. Told her ...said a lot of stuff....did a lot of things I shouldn't have.

WW says she's done after last night. Can't take that sorta abuse. Not physical. Not really mental. Just yelling and screaming.

I can't stand it much longer really. WW finally explained it all again. But, after all that I still think things are broke.

I'm ready to throw in the towel. She thinks I take pleasure in dragging her down.

Not sure I can keep this up. Not sure I can fight her to stay in this.

phew things suck today.

kids are all good. But other than that...

I can't seem to get the housework done. don't hardly have the motivation. Should be starting laundry. Nope.
Kitchen....1/2 done. family room... same deal.

What was that web site? ...Fly Lady. 15 Minutes per room.
You can actually kick butt that way. Even damaged goods like me can usually handle that. Soak the kitchen sinks in bleach while you clean the counter tops.

hoe out papers and junk..

But today. Can't seem to get the gumption. Would like the kids to help. Can't really make them work if I'm not doing it myself.

Hey Dalton,

This is Easter weekend. Don't work so hard. Go out and give the family a break.

Read lovebusters during the week! If you need to vent, there's us or maybe install a punchbag.

DD,
So please tell me - do you know what triggered your WW to go through with the ONS. Why did she flirt, kiss and allow ONS? Come on DD - your WW thinks you are dragging her down by intentionally trying to get at the truth - what's up with that?. What is wrong with this picture? Your WW seems really good at playing the victim and you fall for it by getting down on yourself. YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE UPSET - SHE DOESN'T! :twobyfour:

GG