** a reminder to posters to offer even contrary comments respectfully please **

DD,
Did you get the polygraph done? If not, you simply CANNOT make the above statement. Please protect yourself from being here again in the near future for the exact same reasons. You are being very naive to grant a serial adultress the benefit of the doubt. She has told you a few things, and you are ready to claim she is in NC, completely honest, and transparent. Please use the wisdom of the veterans on this board to help you understand that it doesn't work like that. Just from reading the other stories on this board, I can tell you that the odds of a woman like your wife just owning up to everything and changing over night are astronomically low.

I honestly don't understand why you are doing this to yourself. You need a foundation to build on.

After a trigger filled afternoon and early evening, WW sat and listened to many of the things bothering me. We talked, not just me talking at her.
That's a huge change.

Spoke about her last A. How rotten she acted. That many of those actions led to this happening again. Her being unwilling to address any issues of our marriage head on; rather, ignore them and hope all works out in the end.

She still has a tendancy to get defensive in conversation. So there were lots of starts and stops. Long silences. As I refuse to argue or let the tone of any conversation go negative.

Interesting unrelated thing happened. Youngest daughter had a problem at school (3rd grade so nothing serious). But while sorting it all out with the principal, the principal made a comment that struck a chord. She's got to understand the seriousness of her actions and how they effect everyone around her, but also needs to understand that once she's been punished that we hold no grudges.
An interesting parallel. Does the WS get punished? They lose a degree of freedom. They are not trusted for a very long time. They have to earn back those things. But is that the punishment. As adults we don't get that sort of punishment often provided we don't break any laws. Even with an affair. Regardless of the outcome of the marriage there isn't a lot of punishment going on.
Oddly the person who feels most punished is the BS. Not so much a "woe is me" statement, more along the lines that the BS is victimized and sees little the way of....not sure the word I'm looking for????
In so many cases the best they can hope for is a restored marriage and for the pain to fad.

She is defensive, because she believes that she should be able to have these affairs. That's why she is defending herself. She is getting angry, so she can take back control of the marriage, and get you to back off. You refuse to let things get negative. That's what she is depending on. She already got you to stop considering divorce by saying she wants to work on your marriage. Your first discussion about it, she gets angry and defensive. She will keep this up till you back off. She will lay low for a few months. Then she will go back to what she was doing.

If there is not change in her attitude, There will be no change in her actions.

I think the thing I learned the most is that my gut feeling was not me going crazy. You are victimized because the world tht you thought you understood was fiction and the truth was something you can not bargained for. I believe this is what most BS go through in their head.

I would use the word CONSEQUENCE rather than punishment. The consequence of untrustworthy behavior is a lack of trust. If she wants to be trusted, she has to earn it. That is not a punishment.

Dalton, I hope that you see she is not serious here, but then again, neither are you. All this discussion is for naught. All you need is her agreement and proactive ACTION to the things on the list I showed you. That is the only hope you have for recovery. She will have to work her [censored] off to prove herself and she is not willing to do that.

Just know, that this is all more of the same, and if you agree to stay with her on these terms, then you must accept that your life will be more of the same.

That is the only hope you have for recovery.
[/quote]

Isn't that paraphrased from Star Wars?

----------------------
I'm doing things as is my WW to improve our marriage. Is it in the militant style presented here as my only hope? Partially.
But everyone has their agenda's

ENOUGH of that....

about me.
The panic attacks are in full swing (right on schedual if I'm not mistaken). Sometimes from obvious trigger. Other times, seemingly for no reason (beyond the obvious). I really hate this.
Despite all sorts of honesty, there's no stopping the fear.

What about the self stuff? I can't seem to stop getting down on myself. Not blaming myself for WW's actions. Just a mild depression. At least that is a positive thing. I'm not mired in a deep depression. Don't recommend that to anyone. That really sucks.

Isn't that paraphrased from Star Wars?

----------------------
I'm doing things as is my WW to improve our marriage. Is it in the militant style presented here as my only hope? Partially.
But everyone has their agenda's

ENOUGH of that....

about me.
The panic attacks are in full swing (right on schedual if I'm not mistaken). Sometimes from obvious trigger. Other times, seemingly for no reason (beyond the obvious). I really hate this.
Despite all sorts of honesty, there's no stopping the fear.

What about the self stuff? I can't seem to stop getting down on myself. Not blaming myself for WW's actions. Just a mild depression. At least that is a positive thing. I'm not mired in a deep depression. Don't recommend that to anyone. That really sucks.
[/quote]

DD,
If you ignore everyone's advice and post flippant responses, no one is going to take the time to bother with your thread. You came here. We didn't come to you. The MB plan is not militant, its logical. I'm going to bow out of this thread until a BH who wants to change his situation actually shows up.

It is difficult to continue to support someone that is so self deceived. He is isolated and is willing to take any hope she gives, no matter how thin and transparent. Very sad.

DD,
Militant is a strong word. Some who post here actually have professional credentials. Other's have been in your shoes more than once and they have discovered that the Harley concepts have proven to work, including myself. You can't fix an engine if you don't know where the problem is. You want to fix your M but your don't know where the problems are. In order to keep the engine running you need to do preventative maintenance. How can you do preventative maintenance if you don't have the tools? The concepts here are the tools.

I was in your shoes - I blamed myself. I don't do that anymore because I'm not the one who chose to cheat.


GG

turning into a major AO day. Not cool

gg615, I don't blame myself. Oh sure, like many of the BS I may have contributed to the circumstances that led to WW's A.

Contrary to most of the posts, I've set out the rules for WW. And she's accepted them.
No I'm not playing the polygraph game. Firstly it's no more reliable than intuition. It's a fact I don't trust my wife.
Secondly, it sets up a situation that I can't even begin to put words around.

Anyhow, crappy day. with AO's Will likely ask WW to leave again for a few days for a cool off.

Nice day outside, but not really in the mood to do any work. Sorta sucks.

How will you be able to check on her. Make her exchange cell phones with you. Tell her that she is not to erase any of her text messages or call history. Will you at least take that precaution?

DD,
You said youd down on yourself - why?

GG

Bad "Will likely ask WW to leave again for a few days for a cool off."

Can't reconnect when you are apart. Makes her vuneralbe to back sliding to OM.

Didn't come to asking WW to leave. We got the AO's under control finally.

I sat down, re-read most of SAA. I forgot how much the intial burden is on the BS.

DD, the initial burden here needs to be HERS since you have already gone through this before. Now it is all her job.

How is she doing?

Yes and no the burden is her's. Yes it's her's as I've told her what is required regarding honesty and openness. She's doing/done that. She is being open with all her actions.

For my part, the emotional stuff, the AO's, and the demands (on my part) are hard to control.
Not so much being angry at her, more I get worked up by the 1001 daily triggers. Some days more or less so than others.

To make this work, it does require a lot of effort on my part. Being the BS, I really want to put all the burden on her. That won't work.

A lot of stuff between us has been discussed. We are both trying to limit it somewhat. If we start talking about her A (past and present), she goes on the defensive. Part of me wants to demand we talk about it ALL right now. Part of me knows, too much will put her in a fight-or-flee mode.
In the past, her long fog and my deep depression found us both tired and beaten. Most of the big NO-NO's that a BS shouldn't do I did.
I'm a tad more emotionally detached this time around. Not wanting the marriage to fail. But unwilling to allow myself to go through what I did before. In hindsight, the only thing that would have worked was plan B. I was unwilling to go that far, as I felt that just gives the WS what they really want.

OK. So I didn't do right last time.

I don't know how to handle the rough days. Not without wanting to ask WW to sit with me while I relate my feeling. But, that's not working. I see that. So that's the demands part...that leads to the AO's. I've got my arms around the disrespectful judgements. Or maybe that is a side effect of needing to talk.

Hence, as the BS this is a huge burden. Regardless of how much my WW is putting her best foot forward.
And no, it's not wishful thinking on my part.

This does not sound like someone who is even remotely invested in recovery, DD. This is a woman who is only invested in getting you off her back. Does she understand that radical honesty is the only solution? Have you told her this is your condition?

If she is not even willing to be forthcoming about her affairs, how do you imagine this is ever going to work? That is step 1. If you can't even get past the first step, don't you see that this is going nowhere?

This is not like a one time affair, DD. Recovering from this will take extraordinary measures on her part to change her life. That has to start with radical honesty that comes willingly, not as a result of your grilling.

This is not a person who is invested in recovering her marriage. This is a person who just got caught AGAIN and is only invested in keeping you off her back. BIG DIFFERENCE.

DD, this is not going to magically fix itself on its own. This is not an aberration of character with your wife where just ending the affair will do the trick. This is a WAY OF LIFE with your wife, and the only thing that will save your marriage is if your wife makes dramatic personal changes. BY CHOICE.

You do not have the power to change her. You only have the power to protect your own boundaries from her. And if she will not do even the most basic things necessary to repair the horrific damage done to your marriage, what makes you think anything will change?

Dalton, this is much more than being defensive. SHE IS DEFENSIVE BECAUSE SHE IS UNWILLING. She is DEFENDING LIES, not producing TRUTH.

She is unwilling, Dalton... She is unwilling to do the most basic thing required to salvage your marriage.

I'm checking up on her contantly. Not telling her so. But checking her honesty. I have access to her phone records. Calling after her at work to see what/when she doing things.

It's not a matter of getting me off her back. I ask her questions about what she's doing. But limit the questions about what she's done. She's open about what she's doing and thus far it's held up to my scrutiny.
That IS NOT WISHFUL THINKING ON MY PART. I don't trust her. She is aware of that. She knows the ...............

Mel, you are making me defend her. I don't want to do that. My eyes are open. Could she still be involved? 90% certain she's not. In contact? Same deal, 90% certian she's not.

Could she be faking all the honesty? Sure. But the conditions I've set are if she's in contact or she's lying and I find out about it now or later....SHE'S OUT, WE'RE DONE. No flip-flopping. No second chances. I'm willing to invest the effort if she's willing to be open and honest.
I've insisted on several EP's and she's following through with those (NC w/ OM, NC with any men on a personal level, no unaccounted for time, access to her phone records....and a few other personal things)
The real knife edge is with Plan A.

You put me in a pickle, too much mistrust and I won't be able to function. It will consume me. Not enough and I may as well put blinders on.

I never claimed that things are hunky-dory. Far from it. It's a tough row to hoe. If you think I'm really missing the boat, fine. But really, I've been here before. I knew last time when she was lying. I knew last time she was still in love w/ OM and there was nothing I could do about it. I plugged away with questions and more questions until I got the honest answers.
What I'm doing is NOT talking about her A. Because at this point I know plenty. AND, at this point it's causing issues. I am questioning her actions and following up on my own.

I'm trying to follow a plan here. I'm not just accepting things at face value. But hell, you're making me defend my every action and my WW's.

This stuff sucks goat a$$. Cut me a bit of slack here, or let me fail and say "I told you so" later.