GM,

I do not believe that I have ever posted to you before, but I have been reading both your's and SSS's threads from the beginning.

I think you have not even begun to scratch the surface of your issues.

All of this is said in a gentle tone of voice to you, but I suspect it may come off as angry and loud.

If you are truly interested in saving your marriage, you had better to learn to shut your mouth and START LISTENING. Your inability to HEAR(and I mean that literally) is going to drive your wife completely away from you.

You have spent your entire life trying to fulfill your own needs at the expense of everyone around you.

Now, YOU have the need to be "radically honest" at the expense of your wife's emotional health. WHEN will you get this? WHEN will you realize that this is NOT ABOUT YOU? WHEN?

Where is the POJA in what you are doing?

You seem unable to set yourself aside for your wife's benefit. You cry and feel sorry for yourself because you feel lost and uncertain. When is your wife going to see a truly strong man who is able to put her feelings ahead of his own? Or at the very least, a man who refuses to allow his feelings to trample all over his wife's ego.

If you feel the need to talk so much, then call tst, or the Harleys. STOP beating your wife up with your words. That is exactly how she feels. And if you do not stop it, you will lose her for good. It seems like you have merely traded having sex with other women for torturing your wife with DETAILS about having sex with other women. It is CLEAR to me that she does not WANT any more details. WHY is it not clear to you?

Personally, I believe it is not clear to you, because you don't want it that way. You believe that you know better than your wife what is good for her. You don't. You are doing her no favors. I think you know that though.

You have a serious control problem. Classic,actually. If you have not read Controlling People by Patricia Evans, RUN to the store and get it. I mean that. RUN. DO NOT read it with your wife. I think you will be truly shocked at what you read. She describes you perfectly. You can read this book and it will not interfere with the MB program in any way.

When a control problem is present, it is almost impossible to make the MB principles work in a marriage.

Stay the MB course my friend. I'm praying for you and sss.

((((((sss & GM)))))))

I am aware of my control problem and am trying to deal with it. I will get that book. I did not even know I had been continuing to sugar coat what I felt for the OW. I actually thought it had been spilled out there. Today, I told SSS that I had felt passion and love for the OW. This is not something she did not know. I thought that I had admitted that, but apparently I did not. I sugar coated it. As I unravel and surrender myself, many old rationalizations are unpeeling. I honestly thought that I had told her everything. Now I have nothing. No pretense, no lies. But I also have no SSS. It seems like now I also have no hope. If ever there was a bottom, I am there. I am sorry for SSS and sorry for my whole life, really. If anyone or anything can help me, please help. I really need God's help.

GM,

Listen to tst. Stay the MB course. Pray for God's help and you will be able to do this.

My post was not about whether or not you had told SSS everything or not. My post was about you NOT telling her anything anymore. She does not want details. Do not give them to her. Listen to her. She said to stop giving her details. STOP giving her details. To continue when she has said to stop is a Love Buster.

When you feel the need to unload the things you have done, unload them to a friend, not to SSS.

My suggestion to you is that while you may have a NEED to be O&H, your wife does not have the need for your unbridled O&H. It seems to me that HER need trumps yours.

Yes, GM ,you have done terrible things for a long time, but you are not the first person to do that. The apostle Paul killed followers of Christ. He was known as Saul and was feared by all men until the Lord knocked him off a horse and blinded him and gave him another chance. Turns out that blinding him actually opened his eyes to the TRUTH.

Seems to me that you have been knocked off your horse and now your eyes are opened.

Rejoice that you have been given the same kind of second chance. Your wife clearly wants to be happy with you. All you have to do is stop the LBs and fill her Love Bank.

I am telling you that you MUST stop feeling sorry for yourself though. Look to heaven. Thank God in the midst of this that despite all, your wife is still here. Focus on the NEW life that is right in front of you. No hope? It doesn't look like that to me at all.

My guess is that you want to jump to the end of the story and see if SSS stays with you or leaves you. It does not work that way though. DO THE WORK. That's all you can do. Literally one day at a time. Stop the focus on what the final outcome will or will not be. Focus on TODAY. Not yesterday, not tomorrow.

LISTEN to SSS. She is a smart woman who is becoming increasingly self-aware. She knows what she needs and wants and she knows how to tell you. You have the possibility of a good(even great) life here.

Read the Acts of the Apostles to see what miracle works God can do in a man's life. That man can be YOU GM. Really.

As stated above, listen to and RESPECT SSS' wishes. If she has had enough, stop.

This is going to take years. You can read the books, do the paperwork, counsel with the Harleys and cry a river, but you cannot speed up the healing process.

Slow it down or you're going to derail the train.

Thank you, everyone. I do feel your prayers. I was asking for them. I will press ahead with the MB course. O and H does have its limits, and I am aware of them. I didn't volunteer the information today. Really. SSS drew it out of me, She believes that she didn't, but she did. Is there any really good answer other than the honest one?

No, but it's the way you convey honesty. And respecting your spouse's needs during said honesty session.

For example, I'm still dealing with triggers after two years of my husband's behavior. (In our case, we're dealing with addiction issue and he failed to tell me that he knew he had issues before we married.)

So, yesterday his behavior triggered me. I had two choices.

Choice A would have been: "I'm so f'n tired of have triggers of your behavior, something that I didn't cause, nor did I ask for. I'm f' tired of dealing with this. I'm sick of it. You KNOW this type of behavior triggers me. Why the h8ll do you keep doing it?"

Choice B would be: "Honey, I'm having another trigger. I'm hurting because of it. I know we talked about your behavior yesterday, but, it affected me enough to dream about it. Can we talk?"

Both responses are honest responses. Which would you rather hear? Something nice or repeats of the f-bomb? Which would make you want to work with me, if I were your spouse?

Other resources for control issues that might be useful are books on codependency. Melody Beattie and Pia Mellody are the authors for things. One of the markers of codependency is the need to control everything.

GM-
Even though your wife asks you for information, bc she needs to know to fill in the gaps of her life- you should be very gentle and preface your answers with saying that those hurtful behaviors you participated in were truly the actions of a broken man- and that you would not do those same things now.

Please post to dr. harley. He is the man who created this program - so why not use him as a resource??? also - kim- our weekend follow up person is a wonderful resource. she has alreayd helped me and my H get through some tough days this week. Use the resources we were given.

my thoughts and prayers are with you and sss, sf

Withholding will cause much more damage, though, keep that in mind. If you want to cause some REAL damage, withhold some hurtful information and just let her SENSE it for a couple of years until she manages to drag it out one tidbit at a time. The way to recover is to lance the wound NOW and then get on with healing. Putting a bandaid over it will just cause it to fester and grow. Radical honesty will make her hurt and trigger NOW rather than hurt and trigger COMPOUNDED for the next few years until she gets it all out.

p.s. and whatever you do, don't play it like a hostile defense witness who only answers DIRECT QUESTIONS. That just infuriated me with my H. I needed CONTEXT and context is not forthcoming when you only answer DIRECT questions. Give her the WHOLE STORY about EVERYTHING.

Thanks for the nice response and suggestions. Very difficult to do that in the middle of a situation that is already emotionally charged up and uncomfortable, but that is a skill that I need to develop.

Thanks, Sunflower. In the case of yesterday, it was not really details or new information, it was answering a question about my feelings during the affair, and the effect of those feelings on the sexual experience.

Thank you. I do understand that. I had disclosed everything, I thought, but I had minimized the amount of love and passion I felt during the affair in earlier disclosures to SSS, really because I was disgusted by what I had done, and that led me to remember my feelings as less than they were. I don't know if that is abnormal or pathological. I had been projecting my current feelings back to the time of the affair, and that was not being honest with myself or her. It was coloring the past with the feelings of the present. That is not honest, and I stopped that. In that sense, it was a new revelation, though she told me many times that she knew that already.

It really worries me. If I can let my humiliation, embarrassment, remorse, and grief color the past in my own memory to make it more palatable to me, then how can I know whether I am being honest or not in the present regarding the past? As I come to grips emotionally with what I have really done, my story changes, because I start remembering it for what it was rather than in a way that makes it easier for me to deal with within myself. Does that make sense? Is that an adaptation that all humans have, or am I really abnormal and need psychiatric help for that? Is that the mark of a "born liar" as Dr. Harley listed in his seminar? Or were all my lies just "stay out of trouble lies" as he describes. I want to think they were "stay out of trouble" lies, which can be cured through making radical honesty a habit. If they are the other type, then I need even more help than I thought. It worries me, and it worries SSS. If I am a pathological liar, then she does not want to waste even more of her life on me, and I don't blame her.

GM-
being a BS with a FWH with also a LONG history of infideltiy and lying wiht many partners- i can just give you my feelings about this one.

when i asked my h for facts and details about the affairs i wanted absolute honesty. when i asked him about his feelings - these are NOT facts - he could adjust his feeling statements to take into account what was happening at the time he was cheating and the fact that he was now committed to our marriage.

so i hoped inside - that when i asked him who the sex was the best with - who did this or that the best - who did he love... that he would say - NO ONE was better than you- these were all sick actions of a broken man- one who really wanted a relationship with you - but who was too broken to know how to create that. all these sex acts did not have true love and it was YOU that i really wanted - i just was too fearful, or broken or whatever you want to say - to know how to do that - so in a very selfish way - i sought out weak subsitutes.

this would have helped me heal and start to feel things fro him again.

my H did not say these things- he said hurtful things that drew us apart further. then i did finally tell him what words would help me heal - and he began to help me by saying th ings like that.
good luck , SF

That is very familiar. I have been adjusting feelings statements, because my current feelings in real time seem to bleed backward and color my recollection of my feelings with the OW. But looking at the facts is different. Just from the number of phone calls I made to OW, the hikes we went on together, which fulfilled a need for recreational companionship, and of course the sexual fulfillment clearly filled my love bank above the "in love" threshold with that woman, even though she was never the kind of woman I would really want to ever have a committed life relationship with. SSS is the only woman I ever wanted that with and remains so to this day, even though our love banks were bled down below the hate threshold for years. The worst cruelty on my part was not letting her go years ago and try to find a good life with a man she would be happy with. I kept her hanging on with false statements of love and commitment and basically took her life away from her. It is detestable in the extreme. I ought to be taken out and shot. Really. It was my own cowardice that did that. But you know what? I feel guilty even saying this, but I am selfishly glad that she is still with me, and that we can have a chance to make a real marriage with whatever time we both have left in the world. I am thrilled at the prospect but feel guilty that she never had a chance to make the last 26 years happy for her.

You could let her go....now!

gm-
my husband and i have had the exact same conversations- his affairs were for 12 years - but his abuse and control of me was for 31 years.

yet - i now know that i was a participant in this sick marriage. another woman - a whole woman - would have not been attracted to him to marry him - and when she was married- she would never ahve stayed after his first AO.

so maybe sss has issues too. she could have dumped you too long ago.

even though- you are definitley more culpable- as you manipulated and lied- and she was straight and true.

if you believe you can become the spouse she deserved for all these years and truly committed to DO WHATEVER IT TAKES

gm-
sorry - sent it by accident without finishing-
and do whatever it takes to win her back- then keep at it.

remember dr. harley's words???? these are all HABITS that can be changed and relearned.

sf

I sent you an e-mail, reply when you can!

[quote=Bubbles4U]You could let her go....now! [/quote She is a grown woman, and a strong one at that. If she decides she wants that, she is perfectly capable of telling me to go. I am not holding her captive. This is a decision she will have to make. I will do everything I can to make that a decision she never wants to make. But it is her decision.