This is a step, but it can't happen soon enough.

How many times has WW gone to work since you believe NC started? WW cannot begin to recover until NC is totally in place.

You still can't trust her, without verifying everything she says. This will go on for a very long time.

You did get the books SAA, and HNHN's right? They will guide you through this.

You two are discussing the A, do you feel like she is telling you everything? Do things make sense to you?

What is being discussed in MC?

Sorry for my absence, when I was posting WS was coming in. She doesn't know I post here and dont know for sure what her reaction would be, me discussing our problems with the World Wide Web.
Anyway-
Yes there is work contact, I know. There is no contact that I know of outside of that. I do have HNHN and have read it.

Marriage counseling is interesting. I have had two single appointmemnts she has had 1 single and we have had two together. Each one gets better, we talk about communicating and things that caused the affair. I know that the WS and MC have talked about her trust issues and intimacy issues. We also talk about trust and how both of us can give that back to the other. The counselor I think is very frank and does well in dealing with both of us.

We had our first real date last night, dinner and an excellent one man play - "Defending the Caveman" It went well until the way home when she asked what was bothering me. We had talked a couple nights ago that I needed to tell her when things bothered me. So- When I got home yesterday she was on the phone in the garage and when I pulled up she walked off away from me. Now she probably did this to be able to hear. But it hit some of the triggers and it set me off. I didn't tell her at the time, just unloaded my work stuff and thought about it for a while and said it really wasn't anything to be upset about. When I told her she was upset that I didn't trust her and that her efforts to be trusted weren't being noticed or appreciated. And it wasn't that. I was trying to be honest with her and that kind of upset the night.

This can be hard. I think we are on the right road for now, but there is a lot of things that still are laying out there to be talked about.

That concerns me BHFF. Usually when the fly off the handle like that they were talking to the OP. She could have just said "oh honey I was talking to Clarisa." Did she tell you who she was talking to? You always leave stuff like that out.

This statement is totally about her, no remorse whatsoever. She is so very wayward.

If ..... NC had been in place from the moment you knew WW worked with OM, that conversation could have been different.

WW " I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking something like that would trigger you, it won't happen again"

WW is still in the A. How do you know it wasn't OM she was talking to? Even if it wasn't, she is still wayward.

I will never understand how something else can trump NC, when it is a vital part of ending the A and rebuilding the M. ????

Update and question-
The last 3-4 days were hard, the phone arguement has cooled off, and we spent last night talking. I was supposed to have an individual appt with the counselor, but fumbled the days so I had a couple hours for myself, to sit and meditate (my form anyway).
It was our anniversary yesterday, not much was said. I sent her flowers at work, and got her a chi hair straightner (I know it isn't romantic but she has wanted one for a long time and wouldn't buy it for herself). She had just done 4 12 hour shifts at work, and was very tired. Things still seem to be progressing but very slowly.

My question- I had never doubted that I wanted to save my marriage. I have never doubted that I love my wife. But lately doubt fills me and I wonder if I can get over all the pain. Sometimes I have trouble with the images and questions. I dont know if I even want the answers to some of the questions that pop in to my head. Is this a stage? Is it something all BS go through as healing progresses?

Another question. WW has agreed to talk openly about the affair. At times I want to ask for all the details and then I sit and have trouble with what I do know. What about the other BS's. Do you feel better knowing all the details? Are there questions you wish you hadn't asked? Is knowing the details going to prolong my pain?

BHFF

You can start with a complete time line. Asking general questions. Name, where does OM live work, how they met, how the affair progressed, who helped cover or her, who else knows, how it ended.

You can always then go for more details.

I know the general details. It is the other specific details. I dont know if I want to know, then I feel like I have to. Very confused

You ask what you want at the time.
I've read here where it was suggested to write down a question that you aren't sure you want to hear the answer to, leave it for a day or two, and then decide again if you want to ask.
It's up to you how much you need to know, not WW.

BHFF, please tell us that WW no longer works with OM.

Vittoria,
I cant tell you that she is not, however one job did call and wants her to come to work very soon. This is not something I can push on. But I think she is going to work for them.

But I really want response to my first question. Is my doubt after this time common. Or am I seeing the light and my gut is trying to tell me something?

You may not listen to me anymore. But I will throw this out anyway. If she doesn't take the Job, the affair isn't over.

Ouchthathurt-

Ouch that hurt you have been one of the people who kicked me in the a** the hardest and I appreciate it. I dont know that I can call you friend, but you have done what I think a friend should do- give their opinion without reservation. I would do the same for my friends.

She is taking the job, the employer is working out some logistics. Should happen in a couple weeks.

I just wonder do BS's go through this were now I am wondering if she will ever meet any of my needs. I wonder if this is what I want. Can I forgive? Just a lot of swirls of thought that sometime are going opposite directions.

Everything you are feeling is par for this A course.
Yes, the doubt to stay, the doubt that your spouse loves you, the doubt that you love your spouse, the doubt about everything ....

And these emotions change day to day, hour by hour.
There are threads over on the R forum that may be helpful for you to read.

WW won't start to meet your needs until she has gone through withdrawl and is ready to start rebuilding the M.
Then she will want to help you heal too.
Forgiveness is up to the BS. This is something that takes time.
You've come this far, don't give up yet BHFF. The road gets longer and harder, but you do get to good place with time. And you can have a great M. WW is still wayward, you cannot count on her for anything right now.

These are the steps to R, in this order.
NC between WW and OM
Withdrawl of OM
WW commits to rebuilding

Withdrawl cannot happen until NC. WD usually takes a few weeks or longer (not sure on the specific time frame) but the wife that you knew long ago will slowly reappear.
Rebuilding cannot happen until withdrawl has ended.

Do you see why everyone has been so anal on NC?

WW should quit present job until she starts new one.

faithful are the wounds of a friend.

An enemy will stab you in the back. A friend will stab you in the front.

Amen

So do I demand she quit? The reason she is staying (her words) is that she has to be able to take care of the kids if this doesn't work. Somedays I am good, somedays I am very lost. Thank god I found all of you.

Do you mean should you demand she leave her current job, when the second one starts in two weeks? I would vote yes. You can live without 2 weeks' pay, but you can't live with a wayward who won't make extraordinary precautions to reassure you.

The new job could be as much as a month away.

I know there has been contact, but I think the affair is over. Over for good? Who knows. But after going thru my mopey phase (you know I never had phases before) this last week, you know what? Cant control her, dont plan to. She knows the deal. No affair. All watchdogs are in place. If she wants to come back to a stable man, that loves her very much, who would move heaven and earth for her, here I am. No more sick to the stomach guy. No more worrying and wondering. If she does go back, she will slip up and we are done. I know she has had bad examples all of her life for relationships and she is working through that. So hard into plan A.

Will I demand she leave current job? Probably not. Why? Because she will move into another place where the same thing could happen again. I believe in no contact (Kind of contradict myself) but if I demand anything one of us will have to leave. That will defeat plan A. All of you will probably disagree, go ahead it is a free world. I will argue with you because that is the mood I am in.

Do I doubt I want to stay? No. Will I stay if I continue to be not respected? No way. I dont want my boys to grow into men that would tolerate that from their wives. I want them to have examples of strong men that can stand for themselves and know how to give love to someone that will give it back. I want them to grow into honorable men, that know how to treat women they way they should be treated. So I will not stand for treatment like I have received. She will leave.

As much I think that two parents can raise children much better than one, as much as I believe that saving my marriage is more important than anything else, I know that for them to grow into strong men, I must be strong. I must be stable. I must let them see how two people who love each other treat each other. I will not let them live with lies and deceit. While I think we are on the road to recovery (long road) and I will fight, I will not be lied to anymore. I will show my wife love, respect and kindness. When that is not returned then we will have to move on.

So head up, back straight, grab your *****, and lets get on the road to make this better. If she falters and falls I will try to pick us up. If she cant be picked up, then she gets to lay on side of the road like the roadkill she has become.

Go ahead let me have it. I feel like fighting and got no one to fight with so bring it on

This is fog babble. This is the stuff that you just ignore, do not challenge it, just change the subject.

I vote with catperson, and forget about the 2 weeks loss of pay. You can't demand that she leave, that's a bit LB. I can't remember, but wasn't it your WW who offered to leave her job in the beginning??? If it was, WW may not give you any grief about quitting.

You can tell WW that her leaving this job, Monday, is a huge step to rebuilding your M, and say "that is what we both want, isn't it" Use phrases like that. It's also not a LB to let her know how much her going to that job, hurts you everytime she walks out the door.

Don't bother to let her in on the steps to R that was mentioned above. WW will see it as you trying to educate/force her into R. She may get her back up and not quit.

Bring good family memories, you two as a couple memories up in conversation. Stay away from the negatives.
We all understand the 'lost' feeling and the up and down, it sucks, but it gets better if you follow the plan.

Are you understanding things better??

Have you considered phoning the Harley's?



Any eyes reading ..... suggestions welcome about what to BHFF should say to WW???

So-
Found proof of intimate conversation via Facebook. (if I knew how I would virus them out of the sky). The EA is not over, dont know about the PA. I am pissed.

I read the Borderline article and wondered where the camera on my marriage has been. She is more distant, less likely to talk, and the walls ge taller. She says I need to work on me before We can fix us.

I am tired of the lies. I am tired of the disrespect. I am tired of not feeling any love inside of my marriage. So-
what to do, what to do? I am thinking seriously about kicking her out with full exposure to her family. I will have to work on some kid details but that is the thought.

This may be an interesting weekend.

Thanks to all I will let you know.