GG, one of the things that I left out of my story (perhaps I'll go back and edit it), is that I was going through one of the most insecure periods of my life at the time her A started. The company I am employed with was centralizing and downsizing, and my job was at risk. There were literally no other prospects for similar employment in this area, so losing my job would have lead to a huge upheaval in our lives. I was feeling very vulnerable really needed someone's shoulder to lean on at the time, and I turned to her. She struck me as a bit unconcerned at that time, and I thought it might have been because she thought the situation was not as bad as I feared.

It turned out of course that she was as unconcerned as she was about what was happening in my life because her mind was on someone else. Why be concerned about your H's possible job loss and it's effect on the family's lifestyle when you could be thinking of what to say in your next friendship card to the OM, right?

I am never, never, NEVER going to leave or make myself vulnerable to her again, or rely on her support when I'm going through personal trying times. That's one casualty of her A that's simply not going to be revived. So, I'm going to put as much as I can into this M, but up to that limit.

This made my heart hurt when I read it. What a horrible loss for you. Your spouse SHOULD be the one that you rely on for support when going through personal trying times. If not her, who?

So sorry your marriage is like this. I wish for you that it wasn't, that your wife would get a clue.

Never say never. I hope that saying holds true for you eventually. None of us know what we will do in the future until we are there. I hope that as you and your wife continue to recover your marriage, someday, when you need her, she will be there for you.

Why are you willing to deny yourself the good parts of being in a relationship ?
Is it beacuse you reconcile yourself to the fact that you wont get support from her and its not a deal breaker for you?
Or is it beacuse your think you dont get it from her so you wont get it from anybody ?

I agree with you, and for quite a while I thought of my FWW that way, that she was the first and best person I could turn to in such times. She was the most reliable person that I knew.

Now that I know that all may not be as it seems with her, I know better. When I think that, while I was expressing my concerns, she might have been thinking of when next I'd be leaving so she could invite the OM over, my mind just goes black.

I think that she was just too good at hiding what was really going on inside of her from me, which leads me to feel the way I do now. Hiding the fact that she boinked the OM for the first time just two hours or so before I came home to her would require the masking and deception skills of a veteran pro card-shark. And now I'm not sure whether or not she's still doing it (hiding what's going on inside - I'm reasonably certain the boinking has stopped!).

Finally, I think she believes that she's doing what she can to earn my trust back, but a more correct description would be that she's doing what she prefers to do to earn my trust back. The really tough stuff, like talking to a counselor, just ain't happening.

At the moment, it's not a deal-breaker for me.

I don't know if I'll get it from anybody else. My instincts for distinguishing between trustworthy and untrustworthy people seem to be flawed anyway.

So she refuses? Most people that refuse counseling do so with good reason. They either don't want to be exposed or they don't want to have to deal. Have you flat out told her this is something that you need from her?

Not much to add MiM. Sorry you aren't feeling you are getting what you need to heal.

{{{MiM}}}

I've mentioned it a few times in the past. I've received excuses, sorry, "reasons", why she didn't think it was a good idea. I stopped mentioned it. It's not a deal-breaker for me at the moment in any case. If she prefers that I feel this way about trusting her rather than going out of her "comfort zone" to address it, then so be it.

Well, we had a talk last night.

I'd mentioned something to her via IM the day before. She indicated that she preferred to leave talking about that subject until after work, and I agreed. I waited for her to bring it back up after work. From past experience in these situations, I expected that she wouldn't, and she didn't.

Yesterday morning, I expressed my disappointment that she didn't bring the subject up the day before. She mentioned that she thought about it once or twice, but it "slipped her mind", and she forgot to bring it up. She found time to talk about other things though, so I couldn't help but think once again that talking about relationship stuff, or engaging me in conversation about something that was on MY mind was really not high on her priority list.

Yesterday afternoon, she told me that she was ready to talk with me as soon as I wanted to. I could tell from her tone and her mannerisms though that it likely wasn't going to be open and inviting kind of conversation I was hoping for, particularly as she spent the rest of the afternoon apparently trying to avoid being around me. Later that night, I eventually told her that I'd prefer to put it off until another time, as her mood suggested to me that perhaps now was not the right time. She got even more upset, and left the bedroom for awhile.

She came back about half/hour later, and we had our talk, though it was not about the subject I wanted to talk about.

Some highlights:

1. She told me that it seems that every time she wants to say or do something, she has to think first whether or not what she wants to would meet my approval. She spoke of this as if it was a huge burden for her that she rather not have. She told me that she had to leave the room for awhile because she felt "smothered", and she wanted to be able to do something that SHE wanted to do, without needing my "approval".

2. She told me that she wanted to be happy and be with someone that made her happy. She said she wanted me to make her happy, but I couldn't do so if I kept bringing up "past stuff" and kept on being so moody and "living in the past".

3. She believes that these forums are the main source of my moodiness and unhappiness, that I get caught up in the emotions and then take it out on her.

I replied:

1. I didn't realise that thinking about me was such a burden to her. She enters my thoughts in the same way as she described, but I never really considered it a "burden"... more like what I expected to happen if spouses wanted to avoid doing something that would lead to their partner's unhappiness.

2. I acknowledged that I was not meeting some of her ENs. I also suggested that perhaps I wasn't clear on what those major ENs really were, and would like some direction. She replied that she wasn't sure herself, just that she was “unhappy”.

3. I indicated that the forums were not the main source of my unhappiness. My source of unhappiness was basically trying to have a relationship with someone who didn't seem to be that interested in restoring that deep trust that we had at one point in our relationship.

She expressed a bit of surprise at that one. I gave her an example of someone borrowing a huge some of money from her, telling her that he lost it all, then coming back to borrow some more. Would she simply lend him money again, or would she be looking for some sign from him that he understood the loss, understood the effects, and was prepared to take extraordinary steps to gain back her trust so she'd be willing to lend to him again? And wouldn't she be put off if his approach was to say that the "past was in the past" and she should just trust him now? I said that it would likely take more than giving me a call to tell me where she was every now and then to restore trust that was damaged by basically two years of deliberately deceptive and scheming actions on her part, geared towards fooling me and keeping me in the dark about her A.

She replied that she was deceptive, but not scheming, but that I was "blind" to what was going on, that I really wasn't paying attention, so I didn't notice anything. In response, I clearly outlined several times where she engaged and admitted to the type of actions I was talking about. I also indicated that it wasn't a case of me being "blind" towards what was going on, but me, trusting her completely, really not expecting her to engage in that type of behaviour at all, particularly considering our experiences the first time around. In summary, it was more a case of being “blindsided”, rather than “blind”.

She asked what else she could do. I mentioned that perhaps her talking to someone about her choices might do the job, because it would suggest to me that she wanted to address the situation rather than run away from it and pretend it never happened. She mentioned that perhaps I only wanted her to do that to "shame" her. I replied that perhaps I was looking for a sign that our recovery meant more to her any sense of shame she might get by talking to someone about her choices.

One more thing, during that "trust" talk, she brought up the issue of one of my top ENs, SF, and asked me how I could be "enjoying" SF when I didn't really trust her? I reminded her that apparently she was capable of doing so as she had SF with an OM who she knew was cheating on his fiancee and apparently had another OW on the side. She replied that it didn't matter, she trusted him at the time. I decided not to pursue that conversation much further. Apparently WSs have an entirely different concept of trustworthiness than everyone else.

She didn't contact me this morning via IM like she usually does to say hi. Maybe it slipped her mind. Maybe she only did it because she thought I wanted it, and now she no longer thinks it necessary as apparently it’s not restoring the deep trust I’m looking for. Maybe it’s for some other reason. I’m not going to worry about it. Most of our conversations via IM these days are very short, sometimes limited to just that initial greeting and a response. She’s really busy at work, no time for anything else. She told me this afternoon however, that I wasn’t “logged in” when she logged on, so she didn’t contact me.

She replied that she was deceptive, but not scheming, but that I was "blind" to what was going on, that I really wasn't paying attention, so I didn't notice anything.

Wow MIM,

How do you argue with someone like this? It's enough to make you want to beat your head into a wall.

You were so helpful to me when I was going thru my whole ordeal, but I feel a bit helpless to try to reciprocate.

I'll think about this.

Just wanted you to know I was thinking about your situation.

SWW

MIM,

I have avoided asking this question for some time, and maybe should continue avoiding it, because I have no reason or desire put you on the spot, but you seem like such a "contridiction" to me.

You were here, and considered a "vet" when I got here nearly two years ago.

You are OBVIOUSLY very intelligent.

During your time here, you have surely witnessed BH actions and tactics that were successful, along with those that were unsuccessful.

You are OBVIOUSLY unhappy with your current situation.

SOOOO ... given your knowledge, and level of unhappiness ... why do you choose to remain in limbo, rather take some action to improve or remove yourself from this situation?

Huh? :crosseyedcrazy: She KNEW he was cheating on his fiance AND had another OW on the side, but she trusted him at the time?

She can still say that today? That's just NUTZ... and extremely foggy wayward thinking.

So where did you leave it with the counseling? She won't do it because she'd be too ashamed?

MIN how can you put up with this inhuman woman for even one more day!!!! It sounds like she has all the power in your relationship and can do or say whatever she wants to! And you will have to live with it!

That is .....NO KIND OF MARRIAGE..... to me.

I'm unhappy, but not to the point of leaving our M. My FWW is apparently unhappy as well, for different reasons of course. I won't say exactly that I'm in "limbo", but more that my focus has shifted somewhat. I'm becoming a custodian of my own happiness, rather than relying on my FWW to meet my ENs. And I will still try to meet those (apparently unknown) ENs of my FWW. I still believe, unhappy as we are, that it's better for me to stay in the M than exit it.

BTW - my FWW made it clear, in her own oblique way of course, that she was not open to speaking to anyone about her choices. Apparently the fact that she might have to do just that if our M ends, and more publicly so, doesn't seem to hold any weight with her. She told me that it appears that she'll just have to stay unhappy instead, as apparently she couldn't do what I suggested, so therefore I would never trust her again. I chose not to pursue that conversation - I did not want to say anything that would fuel that attitude. I've let her know (again) what I think I need to see from her; it's really her choice if she wants to do it or not.

I don't believe she feels the same way today. And yes, it was extremely foggy wayward thinking.



The ball's in her court. At least for the moment. And yes, I believe she won't do it because she doesn't want to feel ashamed.

It's a funny situation because, if you get her perspective on what's going on, she'd likely say that she always thinks of me, to detriment of her happiness, that it seems that I'm never satisfied with her, that she feels smothered by my "rules", etc., etc...

Of course I don't feel the same way, but I'm not going to argue with her perspective and tell her she's wrong.

I probably should have just left my keyboard closed, but I guess you wouldn't post about it, if you didn't want some feedback.

I must say, I just don't understand your position. I think you offer very good advice to BH's ... I just wonder how that sets with you, since you seem reluctant to follow the advice you offer others.

I agree.

MIM, I always (and I don't say that lightly) respect your advice. You usually offer such wisdom but I'm honestly baffled by your situation now. I just don't get it.

What do you fear?

In what way is it appearing that I'm reluctant to follow my own advice?

Yes, I'm in an unhappy situation now, but separation and D would IMO lead to even MORE unhappiness, so it's not an option that I want to pursue at the moment. I prefer to continue working on my M right now. If things get worse, I may review my decision and act accordingly.