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Originally Posted by serendipitous
is there something about this situation or how you are handling this situation that is triggering J?

yes, the fact that I can't talk to him and I was able to with FOM.
Originally Posted by serendipitous
I am a little puzzled that you chose to go to band and get support from a friend there. You must have been able to be vulnerable to that friend in order to gain some support. Why is it so difficult to open up to J?
I needed to get my head straight, I needed to try immerse myself in the music to try to give my brain a rest. Just to see her and know that she doesn't know mum so she doesn't have any emotion attached to mum and she was just there for me. It was just arelief to see her really.
Originally Posted by serendipitous
Does J have a fear that you will run from him and possibly to someone else when you are needy? Does he think that this is what happened when you had your A?
Yes and yes

Originally Posted by serendipitous
hug ST.
thank you sere

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Originally Posted by serendipitous
Why is it so difficult to open up to J?

Because if I'm not happy he sinks - it's almost as if I usually kep him upp , if I'm down he falls. I needhim not to fall at the mo. Pretending is easier.

Or if I do - he gets v angry and tells me I'm pathetic and over reacting. I am not strong enough at the mo, to deal wqith a string of insults either .... as I suffered on both times I tried to demonstrate my feelings yesterday. I can't be bothered with it.

So I withdraw in that way. I can be civil and I can still show affection but sadly resentment builds up in me becasue I just want to feel relaxed tlaking to him and I am very nearly always disappointed when I do

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ST,

I have not posted to you in a while but have been following along with your thread. Sorry to hear about your mom and all the additional stress lately.

What ever happened with your husband's possible bipolar? Is he getting treatment? Was he diagnosed with anything?


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Originally Posted by allboysmom
What ever happened with your husband's possible bipolar? Is he getting treatment? Was he diagnosed with anything?
I was wondering the same thing.
It must be difficult feeling like you need to keep him up, even without this A business.

As far as the sitch with your mom, use your parents good friends to help out. Many times there are people who are more than willing to make a meal , do errands or even run your kids around if you are with your mom. People who have had family crises, completely understand and sincerely want to help out.
I know that when I've had to deal with family sickness, there were friends of my parents who felt helpless and didn't want to intrude but were more than willing to do something if they were asked. They felt good knowing that they were of some support. Just a thought.

I so agree with the fact that we think we can do it all and it's hard to ask for support, somehow we feel like we are a failure if we need help. BTDT too. :crosseyedcrazy:
We wear ourselves out, become impatient with people around us and unfocused with what's really important. We end up not being good for anybody.

Take care and I hope life gets better for you. smile


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Thanks abm. He has been feferred to the psych team. I have heard through a friend that there is a 6-7month wait for an appointment!

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Thanks V
Originally Posted by Vittoria
As far as the sitch with your mom, use your parents good friends to help out.
You are quite right, they have many good friends and many htat have offered help. But I don't want her to think that I'm not there. And in a moment of debatable clarity yesterday she expressed that she didn't want people to know how sick she is.



Originally Posted by Vittoria
We wear ourselves out, become impatient with people around us and unfocused with what's really important. We end up not being good for anybody.
I think this is where J is at he spent 6 hours moving 2 very large sheds and contens for preschool on sat and then worked 12hours plus 2 hours travel on sun and then into mon!!

I don't think i am there at the mo. I am still very calm and reassuring and fun around the children, when my patience goes with them that is when I need to slow down. I know I don't have patience with J at the mo but I want him to just get on with it woithout lots of introspection. Let's just do for now.


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Life is easier to day mum has turned a corner and I can get on without worrying about where j's head is as I know it is at work mostly.

I'm trying to think about the weekend now. Mum should be ok then, we are going to Monkey World as a family of 4 + friend for DDs b'day and me and J are going to a party - the lady that plays in band with me who J used to play vball with.


I think avoiding relationship talk and emotional talk will work best til then, we can just concentrate on being calm and kind.

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Thak you Sere and SC and 6YL for your BS input - I need to take on board that FOM business isn't insignificant for J at the moment.

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Originally Posted by staytogether
Thanks abm. He has been feferred to the psych team. I have heard through a friend that there is a 6-7month wait for an appointment!

Haven't you called yourself to find out or have J call to make an appointment? I know you have a lot going on, but I really think this would take a lot of stress off of you so it would be worth it. If he is diagnosed, the meds will definately help him and all of those around him.


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I'm disappointed today. I find myself unable to be too near J again.

I can't take that amount of abuse.

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Originally Posted by staytogether
I'm disappointed today. I find myself unable to be too near J again.

I can't take that amount of abuse.

I'm so sorry ST.

Fear seems to be driving the pair of you at the moment. His fear that he is not enough for you, that FOM was, and the A may be rekindled, and your fear that J is not enough for you. That if you lean on him as you need to, he will collapse.

You somehow need to find a way to break this cycle, and the only way, IMVHO is to have an O&H conversation. Things sound terrible and sound like they're getting worse. There's huge tension between the two of you and it really has to be addressed in one way or another.

I hope one of the vets can come along to give you some advice here because I don't think either of you can carry on much longer in such an unhealthy situation.

I'm just thinking aloud here and am probably way off base, but maybe your fear is not that he will collapse if you lean on him, but that he won't and he still won't be enough for you.

I'll be thinking of you both ST and I really hope this can be worked out for the two of you.


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Email to J, just now

Hi J
I’m really struggling with all the yelling and the way you let the criticisms and abuse fly, interrupt me you didn’t give me a chance to talk. I’m not sure how to get close to you again, it seems to go against my instinct.

I am however relieved at the way you were so angry at me not being there when your dad was having his op and I am sorry. I am pleased that you were able to demonstrate some real anger about the A.

Thank you for being such a support to mum and dad.

What happens next how do you think we should get back on track?


ST

Last edited by staytogether; 05/14/09 05:01 AM. Reason: missed a bit copying
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Originally Posted by way2
Whether BS or WS you have a spouse who is alive! You may not realize the gift you have -- but is it just that, a gift and you don't know how lucky you are.

Don't waste the gift you've been given -- yes your WS made a mistake and had an A, yes your BS made a mistake and helped create the climate for the A -- you both made a mistake and drifted apart from each other, didn't meet each others needs-- whatever!!

Both of you thank God or whatever you call your higher power that you have a chance to fix the mistakes and then go on an fix them. Don't waste your gift. Face your demons, together, if you have to, but don't waste your gift.

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J will be home soon.

He wants to talk. I'm exhausted. Where will this conversation go tonight?

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Originally Posted by serendipitous
Fear seems to be driving the pair of you at the moment. His fear that he is not enough for you, that FOM was, and the A may be rekindled, and your fear that J is not enough for you. That if you lean on him as you need to, he will collapse.

I agree. The A will not be rekindled - I'm fighting that 100%.
Originally Posted by serendipitous
You somehow need to find a way to break this cycle, and the only way, IMVHO is to have an O&H conversation.

I agree too, we are both scared and I think yes he is scared of my abuse and me of his.
Originally Posted by serendipitous
Things sound terrible and sound like they're getting worse. There's huge tension between the two of you and it really has to be addressed in one way or another.
It's just one of those down ward turns, thing is there is too much going on.
Originally Posted by serendipitous
I hope one of the vets can come along to give you some advice here because I don't think either of you can carry on much longer in such an unhealthy situation.
I am ever grateful to my posters but would love fresh eyes or a lurker to give their summary view of things.
Originally Posted by serendipitous
I'm just thinking aloud here and am probably way off base, but maybe your fear is not that he will collapse if you lean on him, but that he won't and he still won't be enough for you.
I hope that isn't my fear, i'm not sure what I can do about that.
Originally Posted by serendipitous
I'll be thinking of you both ST and I really hope this can be worked out for the two of you.
thank you

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Well, the conversation was ok. We certainly don't dislike each other more from it. We are talking more calmly to each other.

J keeps wanting to give up and say this just isn't right. I'm trying to persuade him it is just part of the rollercoaster. We just ride it out with out over analysing and as soon as we're ready try to be nice to each other again. Let's just try to make it through to the weekend.

He hates th fact that I find it hard to get near him. Complained baout the kiss i gave him when he came in, but I was chuffed that I had kissed him.

He is absolutely adamant that he has no fear I will get in touch with OM because if I do it won't make any difference tohim anymore ie he'll go. I didn't think that really said whether he feared it or nat so tried to get clarification but he is certain that I won't. I told him that some days I have to fight it. But that I do fight it for my own integrity and not because he threatens to leave if I do and that's how I know I won't do it. (saying things like that to me seem like a bit of a challenge, but I'll resist the temptation to see if he's true to his word.)

Bed.

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What does he fear if its not that you'll got back to FOM?


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he fears seeing the children only on visits

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I know of M's that had less to start with.

I'll have a look for an article that really struck home to me when I was considering whether or not to pursue Plan A, and post it


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Can't find the author/s so cant credit them sorry. Anyway, i decided there was alot to keep me trying. There antoher thing about people being survyed 6 years after thinking they might seperate. The ones that stayed were alot happier than they had expected to be, and were massivley happier than the ones who D'ed

Quote
A person stuck in an unpleasant marriage faces only two options: stay married and miserable, or get divorced and become happy.

Sound logical? Well, reality differs.

Divorce often creates additional problems and pain that had formerly not existed, such as child custody, support payments, and heartbreak.

"While temporary happiness may be found," said Lysa Terkeurst, President of Proverbs 31 ministry and author of Who Holds the Key to Your Heart, "divorce causes death — it harms not only the spouses involved but also their children and friends."

Recently, a report by the Institute for American Values, a private, nonpartisan family think tank, challenged the divorce presupposition.

"In popular discussion and in scholarly literature, the assumption has always been that if a marriage is unhappy, if you get a divorce, it is likely you will be happier than if you stayed married," said David Blankenhorn of the Institute. "This is the first time this has been tested empirically, and [the tests show that] there is no evidence to support this assumption."

The Facts and Figures
Conducted by a team of leading family scholars headed by University of Chicago sociologist Linda Waite, the study analyzed the relationships between marriage, divorce and happiness. The research team used data collected by the National Survey of Family and Households that had interviewed 5,232 married adults in the late 1980s. Total reported unhappy marriages: 645. Five years later, 167 had divorced or separated, and 478 had remained married.

The research shows that unhappily married adults who had divorced were no happier than those who had stayed married. The 13 measures of well being include self-esteem, personal mastery, depression, purpose in life and alcohol drinks per day.

"Divorce leads to many ills including poverty, depression, poor health and a greater likelihood of suicide," said Bridget Maher, a policy analyst on marriage and family at the Family Research Council. "Divorced men have higher rates of mental illness and death due to accidents and suicide than married men. Also, divorced fathers who do not live with their children are more likely to engage in behaviors that compromise their health. A study of children's home environments found that divorced mothers are less able to provide the same level of emotional support to their children than married mothers."

The research also shows that the unhappiest marriages had encountered the most dramatic turnarounds when spouses addressed problems together, individual partners found ways to improve their own lives, or time simply passed. In each situation, commitment served as the underlying foundation for a lasting and often happy marriage.

"As a couples therapist for more than 20 years, these findings are consistent with my own clinical experiences," said Dr. Mark Goulston, an Assistant Clinical Professor at UCLA's Neuropsychiatric Institute. "Marriages end not because couples stop loving each other but because they can't stop hating each other. When couples find a way to excavate and work through the misunderstandings, hurt and disappointment that hardened into anger, they often discover that they still have a strong bond underneath…

"[What this means] is that people should give their marriage their absolute best effort before they call it quits. If they don't, they could end up with deep regrets and more unhappiness down the road."

Tolstoy Was Right
Nineteenth-century author Leo Tolstoy observed, "What counts in making a happy marriage is not so much how compatible you are, but how you deal with incompatibility."

The organization's report supports Tolstoy's claim: "A strong commitment to marriage as an institution and a powerful reluctance to divorce do not merely keep unhappily married people locked in misery together, they also help couples form a happier bond. To avoid divorce, many assume, marriages must become happier. But it is at least equally true that in order to get happier, unhappy spouses or couples must first avoid divorce."

While circumstances — such as physical abuse — may make divorce a necessary evil, it is still a tragedy, and like any other misfortune, divorce causes pain.

"Divorce is to adultery what price gouging is to armed robbery: essentially the same crime, varying only in degree of brutality," said Dr. David Crabtree, president of Gutenberg College. "Adultery is character assassination; it is the breaking of one's solemn promise; it is the treacherous betrayal of one's closest friend. Divorce involves the same kind of betrayal; it may be legal, but it is still nasty."

The prophet Malachi declares, "The LORD is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant. . . . 'I hate divorce,' says the LORD God of Israel" (Malachi 2:14,16; New International Version).

While addressing the issue from different angles, Tolstoy, Malachi and the Institute for American Values arrive at conclusions about divorce that square with reality: divorce is not the best solution. It is a tragedy.


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