You are wrong in that he did not have NC, he was not at work for 4 1/2 months due to being in the hospital 2 weeks after D-day, when he went back to work the OW still worked there and that is when he turned her in for "sexual harrassment" because she was still pursuing him and then she quit. He later left that company as well.

And him and i differ on opinions as to whether he is "flirting" or not so i guess if you want to say that is why i am posting on the divorce board then i guess you are correct. However he was "flirty" prior to his A and he has not changed that behavior is actually why i am posting on the divorce board.

Drgnfly did give me some useful information over there in that she and Skald had similar issues and Skald always said he was not "flirty" as well because there was no "intent". After reading what she wrote it fits my H to a tee and i actually used it in a conversation with him and he seemed to understand why i have always thought he was "flirting" when he did not think he was at all.

So maybe my sitch is not the same as most and maybe i am basing my responses on my H and my H alone however when i read these other threads and hear people say the same things over and over again i can't help but think that all WSs are eerily similar therefore it would seem they ARE like my sitch i dunno........

I believe most on this BB would agree that anything the BS feels is cheating or unfaithful, IS, regardless of whether the WS thinks so or not. It's part of extraordinary precautions which a WS should have in place as a condition of recovery. Your WH has refused to quit flirting. Why? Especially if there is no "intent" to it! If there's no intent, there's no purpose. If there's no purpose, there's no point. If there's no point, why bother??? You see where this is going don't you? Yes, there is a point and a purpose, just nothing he's willing to share with you because - guess what - he is still being unfaithful!!! SC - do you still not see the addictive nature of this behavoir?

Dr. Harley defines infidelity as "a romantic relationship outside of marriage". "Romantic" has one definition of "displaying or expressing love or strong affection." Flirting is a form of affection. He is initiating affairs with all these women by flirting with them. The fact that the other women don't reciprocate does not mean he hasn't extended the offer.

I agree that it should not matter what he thinks and only what i think about his "flirting" and hence the reason i am posting in the divorce column.

I do not however believe he is being "unfaithful" as you put it and I still do not see it as an "addiction".

SC, did you read Barnboy's response above? In case you didn't, here it is again. He explains it much better than I do.

Barnboy you actually have it backwards. The women actually "flirt" with him and then he does nothing to stop it. He does not EVER start it and that is why he always says there is no intent therefore it is not "flirting" he is simply being friendly.

Tabby did you read my response to Barnboy?

And this is different, how?

SC, I work in an old boys club and get flirted with ALL THE TIME. One does not have to be unfriendly to ward off flirting.

I beleive that DR.Harley uses the simple term "addict" because it best describes the WS. The details don't matter of what chemical causes the problem or what behavior/circumstance.
What is needed is the realization of the effect As have on marriages is the same as Drug addictions have on average ppl.

If someone can't see past the feeling/chemical high of the affair then the marriage will struggle to get back to the place it needs to be.

So addiction to an outside stimulation of pleasure that is directly opposed to marriage principals is the enemy, Chemical and situational/circumstansial as it may be it is just a detail of the problem

I guess i am not sure what you mean by this Tabby. I do not disagree with you in that it should not matter if it bothers me.

What i disagree about is that it is an "addiction", i just do not believe that. I think that most people on here do not want to look at an A for what it really is (and it is because it hurts so much i am sure) and that is a "relationship".

IMHO whether any of us like it or not our WSs had a "relationship" with someone other than us while we were married and they acted in that "relationship" how they would in any other "relationship". The fact that they are hurting other people in the process is just "selfishness" and was no concern of theirs at the time just like ANY "relationship".

SC, have you read Drinking: A Love Story, by Carolyn Knapp?

Many alcoholics say that they first felt like they were "losing their best friend" when they gave up drinking.

Food is my best friend

I really just wanted some way to use that lovey dovey icon...I dont think I can use it any other way.

I have not Fred. And i am sure that many do say that i do not doubt you for a minute.

You are talking about an alcoholic though not an affair.

And like i have stated many times on this thread, we were all the same way in the beginning of our relationships with our spouses too.

I know that i quit hanging out with my friends and doing as much for my parents and calling off work if he did not have to work that day, these are all things that were "selfish" at the time, just because it was not in an adulterous relationship was i too an "addict" for my future spouse?

That is all i am saying is that if it is an "addiction" then ALL "realtionships" and "infatuations" are an "addiction".

Since the topic turned to flirting, here is an MB thread titled "Mulan's Long Rant Against Flirting" which might be of interest to some:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1980148&page=1

And yes, I do think sex/admiration can absolutely be an addiction. Now, I don't think a person starts out being a sex addict any more than an alcoholic starts out being an alcoholic. If the predisposition is there, and the person allows themselves to cross the line with the first drink or the first illicit contact - *that's* when the addiction kicks in and that's when the addictive behaviour starts.

And no, I don't agree that an affair is "just like any other relationship." The people in it know before it starts that it is illegitimate and must be hidden and that most would consider it wrong. That's the polar opposite of "any other relationship" and causes completely different behaviour in the participants. Lies, secrecy, and gaslighting are not part of any normal relationship, but come in full force when addictive behaviour is in play (with any substance or behaviour).

I know that people don't want to excuse horrible, selfish, destructive behaviour by letting the perps hide behind "Ooh, I'm an addict, it's not my fault, I just couldn't help myself."

That's NOT what we are saying.

Addiction is not an excuse. It's an explanation.

Excuses are dead ends. But if you have an explanation, you can deal with the problem because you understand it and *sometimes* bring about significant change.

Nothing but addiction (in his case, to sex/attention/admiration) could have made by WXH ignore his own dearly beloved son - but that's what he's doing. It has nothing to do with me because I have not interfered in their relationship in any way and have had zero contact with XWH for some 18 months.

People on heroin or meth behave the very same way - they dump EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY that interferes with their heroin or meth. Substitute "OP" for "heroin or meth", and do you not have the behaviour of a WS perfectly described?
Mulan

I see that I've started trying to persuade you on something that you don't want to be persuaded to, and I apologize. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I to mine.

I guess what I was trying to say is that almost everyone gets some effect from drinking alcohol. But not everyone becomes an alcoholic. I think that the chemical releases that have been measured are indeed felt by everyone. Just not everyone has the propensity to addiction. Perhaps that's why some people can resist the "urge" to become entangled in affairs while others can't. Sure, it may be a weakness, or some bio/psychological deficiency. The result is still the same, and on that I think we both agree!

Yes you are correct in that we both can agree that the results are the same .......

Mulan i don't see it as an explanation i see it as an excuse as well. And it makes me more confused and sickened to think my H is an "addict" than to think that he was just being "selfish", but that is just me......

This describes what H is doing right now. Back to teenage years. A mature relationship does not take this shape and form. He took several days off work to be with her, he has cut contact with everyone, he is crazed without her, he plans his day around her.
I used to be like that at 16 maybe till 23. When I met H I did not cut ties with parents and was not crazed or withdrawn if he was not there.
A as well as unhealthy relationships are addictions.
H has no control over the fact that he needs OW. He has done crazy things to be with her, namely abandon his family, risk to be seen by son while having A with her, shamed in the workplace (by me who exposed to everybody..)
Now....I suspect he is addicted to the secrecy and the thrill he derives from it. The A is exposed. If my theory is correct it should end by him cheating on her with yet an OW.
I will never quite know as I am in plan b, but maybe news will travel.
blessing

Whatever it's called they act like a COMPLETE A$$.