AWesome you got the spytools in place.
Bad dreams suck. sorry to hear that happened.

As far as exposure you seem ready to do it so thats all lined up.
Kinda cute and little boyish that WH keeps coming in to talk to you about evry detail. Kinda like how that saying goes.
"The difference between the men and the boys is the price of their toys"
God I hope that isn't true lol, No guys, and I mean men, I allways hated that inferance too and I'm not seriuos.

But their is one thing I would like to bring out about what I observe here from afar away in forum-land.
Its been said that a mother is a boys first girlfreind. He learns about how to treat women and what to expect from his relationship with his mother.

WH hides himself from his Mom and resents her. I am assuming that the mother is suffering with some form of paranoid delusions and I mean "clinical diagnosis", is that right?

WH is having these secret relationships that seem to be ones ehere he needs constant reassurance from his OW. Like he is really insecure at heart. Do you agree with that?

Going on those assumtions here is what I have to say and its as allways just an opinion.

Collecting cards and Ebay is a great hobby but a poor trade-off for a human relationship. If he did not have the benifet of a stable mother along with his loss of hearing well, that is quite a struggle for an obviously emotional and sensitive individual.
Many women say if you want to see how you will be treated in marriage look at how he treats his mother.
Same goes for men. They say the same about women.
These statements and generalitys of course are based on habitual behavior. People can change bad habits into good ones but it ussually doesn't happen without somekind-of kick in the pants, so to speak.
We can only pray that WH realizes you are willing to build something greater in your marriage than Ebay and that he will rise up to the challange. It will of course be his choice. You will be the initiator of change for him because you are refusing to stay in the relationship as it is.

If the mother is clinically emotionally damaged or mentally disabled then I don't see an advantage in exposing to her. It would just be cruel. I would protect the impaired from any of that drama-trauma.

If the mother is just being a child by choice and is basiccally spoiled by WHs whole family, screw um, expose to Mom too.

The wrecking-ball must be able to completely destroy the emotional stronghold his behavior has on his mind. Tear the bandage off this infected mess and give truth and the guidance of the Harleys to really heal his heart.

Total and complete nuclear exposure might still be needed shortly in the future. DO NOT give up all your intel REGAURDLESS of what he says today after the sessions with Harley. I know it wil be hard not to crumble and share everything if you see progress but please just leave the details of monitoring and exposure in the closet for now

Ok no more bad dreams now K?
Praying for your recovery

sorting, there is nothing here that leads me to believe his is mother so insane she can't handle an exposure. Being immature does not = mentally ill. I get real frustrated when people try to scare newcomers out of standard, garden variety exposures for no reason. Exposures are not harmful to people; exposure is therapeutic. It is the most powerful weapon in her arsenal against the affair. While their relationship may not be perfect, as his mother, it is clear he does care about what she thinks.

A nuclear exposure is EXACTLY what is subscribed by Dr Harley. Steve Harley may ask her to hold off, though, so he has an opportunity to SELL the WS first. But there is no other legitimate reason to wait on exposure. Exposure needs to be done EARLY before the affair becomes too entrenched.

Exposure

I wanna thank all of you for your supprt here... You all are helpful in your own ways and have litte bits to contribute and it all comes together into a 'platform' if you will that holds me, allows me to speak, re-group, and last but not least---->hope....

We ended the session with Dc Harley at 1pm--so 10:30-1pm we had a brief session together, my husband had his session, it ran long, then mine, ran longer, then he called us together...

I love the Doc. he picked up on something seriously profound thats been rubbing me about my husband all these years, my husband doesn't have the ability to be intimately empathetic. He has a serious character flaw. He truly beleives he's done nothing wrong and...

If his belief system doesn't change, his behavior never will. Doc H : "Any behavior change without a belief system shift is just 'temporary'."

Exampled: Doc H used the overweight man going to a doc to ask for help with his back pain.

Doc explained how addressing the back pain would be pointless without exercise and eating right(2 courses of action, yes hard ones, but ACTION)--if overweight man refuses to do both, then there's no point in addressing the back pain... I believe my husband understood the message and I feel so releived that Doc evaluated him and was able to enunciate what I've REALLY been struggling with all these years... Until my husband understands from WITHIN that his behaviors are 'wrong' to do when married, then he will never understand why I'm in pain, and will continue to cause me pain as a result.. even IF he feels guilty about it he doesn't know why.

Sadly, I ALWAYS knew there was something fundamentally, profoundly wrong at his CORE and I've always felt my husband prioritizes his own needs above all else.... a selfish aberrant tendency. I call him amazingly independent and always felt he would be just fine if I wasn't around. that includes inclinations towards self-gratification as I've explained his predilection for ebay and regretfully, towards masturbation too...

He doesn't have 'team' mentality in our marriage (ironic since he's involved in every sport!!!!!!!)

Exposure, as Doc H said is primarily for me to get support that I need so in its stead, I should make sure I have 1 or 2 good friends for support right now and that means:

Exposure is on hold--all of it.

It will not change his beleifs system and will most likely drive him away.

We are told that we have a goal to 'work together as a [u]team[u] doing enjoyable things':

"For your marriage to be mutually enjoyable"

~feel connected

~feel reliability

~feel cared for

~feel respected

~feel safe

"To eventually FEEL that you've fallen in love again and want to stay in love and WANT to spend the rest of your lives together"

Further Doc H will be a 'coach' for us...guiding us on the path. Perfect word, seeing as how I used to be a job coach and I FULLY understand that it means "less, (involvement) is more"


Homework: We both must read up on Basic Concepts (he told my husband he HAS to read, he needs his 'education' in order to give it his best shot and to use the website), submit the last page of our first EmoNeeds survey (we did that like a month ago I think and the top 5 for BOTH of us were almost EXACTLY the same!!!...), Now, we must write another EmoNeeds survey, write the Lovebusters survey and submit to Doc, not seeing each others answers, not sharing what is said in sessions.

Everything kept seperate, including counseling.

Doc asked me if I thought my husband WANTED to save the marriage and I paused for a long stony silence with deep thought, I finally said "Doc I had to ask myself the question again and here's my answer 'I think he wants the marriage to work out but I also know he has no idea how much work he has to do on himself to make it work, so I say to you Doc, the answer is probably yes AND no.... And thats being honest."

I explained about all the efforts my husband is making with 'small talk' and my calm demeanor was just the right thing at just the right time. ((((((MELODY)))))

We will be meeting Doc NewEngland friday and then go from there...


I'm posting now and will add more later as I htin of it-for those anxious to hear how it went.

Wow! Thank goodness he was able to zone in on this character trait in your H! What does your H think of Steve?

And Plexie, why are you going to this other counselor? Will he be helping you implement the plan laid out by Steve?

Doc also said exposure is most effective when children are involved because they have a bond, with the children forever,.... and it works best in those cases.

We are going to the other counselor because I need to show my husband that I'm willing to go wherever he feels MOST comfortable. Because HE brought up counseling and I found someone he actually knows, has known for 20+ yrs, as a result he is more willing. I told him I like Doc Harley and asked him to try doc Harley and he agreed so now I have to hold my end of the bargain.

Also, for this to work will require tremendous tremendous commitment on HIS part and I need to see which counselor he wants to work with... Thats the only way. I can get my Doc Harley fix forever, but if he doesn't want Doc Harley then he wont commit...and it will all be a SERIOUS waste of time and money.

We will have to pick one counselor, Dr new England doesn't do what Doc Harley does she uses : trust, commnication, and commitment in her approaches with marriage counseling.

Now, I have a plan that if he chooses Dr New England to give it a deadline... Luckily theres some advantage to my husband having seen website, done EmoNeeds survey and lovebusters survery...it helps that he was so relaxed and at ease too and its here in our home on videophone.. I feel he will choose Doc Harley, but if he doesn't a deadline on Dr New England, which would be how long would you guys advise? I say like 3 sessions....

ok, does Dr New England know how to save marriages? What are her qualifications? Does she understand the dynamics of adultery? Does she use tried and FAILED traditional techniques that are based on feelings rather than behavior?

The issue here is not how "comfortable" anyone feels, because feeling comfortable will not save your marriage, but rather if the MC knows how to save a marriage. Most marriage counselors don't have the SLIGHTEST IDEA how to save a marriage and cause more harm than good. Traditional marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate, plex.

You are SO RIGHT Melody, I'd rather gamble on Doc Harley 100%.

Aside from spouting the statistics, what would be good way to convince him to try Doc Harley and drop Doc New England?

I'm just going to start pointing all all the pro's in going with Doc Harley...since we chat so much now its incredible... and ask him to commit to Doc Harley for me. Or for us... A big thing is Doc harley has everything online and Dr New England will not... because this can hold hands with his ebay fixation he may be naturally more inclined to lean towards Doc Harley....

I was thinking you could tell him that you feel very comfortable with Harley because he's qualified to do MC, and Dr NE isn't really as her speciality is kids... two, that you (I don't know if this would be the truth or not) don't feel comfortable with or don't like Dr NE's signing skills... three, you feel it's more private with Harley and would feel awkward if you run into Dr NE at work...

How do you guys communicate with Steve Harley??

Melody we have a technological device. It is a videocamera in essence, it films us signing live to an interpreter in an undisclosed location. The basically sign everything Dc Harley says and speaks everything that we sign. Fainne, it happened today that we had a VERY qualified American Sign Language interpreter, and I want to see if we can look into requesting that one again...

Dr New England is now at St Joe's College Teaching and doing private practice on the side.

I am concerned that by being firm with my husband to stick with Doc Harley, I will lose the connection we're having...

I want to just continue to point out we're in the safety of our ownhome and can go to other rooms in our own house as opposed to office where we arent comfortable and have to drive.

I got an update from Sprint... I can have emails forwarded and be BCC'ed on all emails my husband's device sends--for free.

Also I can pay $5 a month for GPS locator which could have 20 min delay but, still... I just forked out $249.00 I don't have... for the same thing...

My jaw's still on the floor... I've tried to pick it up to no avail...

Still thinking about what Harley said about your WH, Plexle... it makes so much sense... though it completely changes your plan.


Not to T/J, but I figured you'd enjoy hearing this. During my routine checkups on keylogger, I came across some facebook conversations DD had the day before yesterday. Omg. I was appalled. She swore so much.

So after some thinking, I decided I'd modify some of what I learned here on MB to fit my situation...

Yesterday, while we were in the car, I casually asked her if she had been doing any swearing. She lifted an eyebrow and looked at me inquiringly, "like how? where?"

"Oh, anytime, anywhere. Do you do that?"

She thought for a moment. "Yea, a few times when I talk with friends I use this or that word... and this one other time this guy bumped into me so hard he hurt me so I swore at him!... and that's all."

"You sure that's all?"

She shrugged. "Yeah."

I let it go but I did some more thinking...

At dinner today I again brought it up. "Do you remember what I asked you yesterday?"

"Yes, the swearing thing."

I decided to hone in. I said, "Are you sure that's all the swearing you did? We already know everything." She thought some more and told us about a couple of other times she had used swear words.

After telling her we had been watching her facebook conversations, I repeated with emphasis, "We already know everything."

After protesting a bit, she struggled to remember more of what she might have said and told us a bit more.

I then told her she needed to stop swearing on facebook and that we would continue to watch. That if we caught her doing it again, that she would be suspended from using facebook.

She protested, "But that's not fair! What about my privacy?"

I said, "When you show us we can trust you, we will give you some privacy."

She sulked for a bit, but seemed resigned to it. What I'd give to know what was going through my H's mind at that moment... I felt a bit of a deja vu there. He was quiet and watching our conversation.

Anyway, end T/J

AWww. Well it was money spent for a good reason anyways. Education.
But hey if your interested I've got this property to sell in florida..

Glad you got the Man Dr Harley in on this.

Why not sell DR. New england on Dr. Harley. I think that if DR.NE will take 20 mins to read about Dr Harley she will be hooked on the method and success. DR. NE can also give him a phone call or create an account on the forums.
This really shouldn't be hard to do and if your H cares about your emotions and what you are concerned about he would welcome it I would think.
I know DR H already identified his lack of emotional empathy, still its a goal.

My concern was with WH possible ability to spin a different tale to DR. NE. and of course DR H has more insight on these things.
WH could see DR NE if he feels comfortable and run DR H by her? Then WH can start the hard work of change.

You sound better evry time I read Plex Grats

Yes and I tottally agree with that Mel. Can you tell us Plex, is she mentally ill?. I know thta exposure is on the back burner but just so we know in case you have to roll the bomber out of the hanger.

Mel I agree that he cares what his Mom thinks. What I was wondering was if Mom is really sick that all it would be was cruel.

Sort,
I already told Dr New England about Doc Harley. She is impressed but she's not tech-savvy so I'm not certain how much she saw. I gave her a nutshell version of what's going on, in fairness to her also. She took the liberty of explaining her approach : trust, commitment, communication... Husband and I had a discussion with me prompting him to consider trying Doc Harley first for a few weeks and he disagreed, wants to meet both now and then decide. So be it.

He's in agreement its a great doc and he feels comfy and likes being here at home but, I can clearly see he wants me to keep my end of the bargain. Maybe its just a reaction to the "demands" I had for him. Husband told Doc H that I DEMANDED 5 things and i told Doc H I simply laid out the CONDITIONS I need for my safety. But BECAUSE HUSBAND has character issues, he doesn't see it that way. I suspect he is kinda retaliating, its the only leverage he has ...if you really stop and think about it, and I'm just not prepared to destroy where we're at now for that little thing....

It's not worth it. ;o) However, I will be dropping hints, and nicely trying to get him to see we're better off with Doc H, I need to do so lightly because if I don't he's going to think there nothing HE can ever do or choose in fixing OUR marriage...

Nothing , nothing is worth fighting with him about right now... I've to suck it up... I've come this far and now I'm just going to stay strong...Which will be significantly easier now that all we focus on is ENJOYING each other... Does that include making love? Hmm, I don't know if I can do that...

Plex, the issue is that you are not likely to recover your marriage unless you counsel with Steve Harley. I don't know what trust, committment and communication MEAN in terms of saving a marriage. That doesn't really make sense and is not a PLAN. They are just buzzwords.

First off, you should NOT TRUST. It was too much trust that got you in this mess in the first place. It is not lack of trust that is the problem, but a lack of boundaries.

Secondly, "committment" to what? To being married? To WHAT? A committment to just being married is an invitation to abuse, but a "committment" to make the other person happy will repair the worst marriages.

You already know how to "communicate." What you don't know how to do is to fall in love. <----that is the goal of Marriage Builders.

Does she have an actual PLAN on how she intends to save your marriage?

Sort,

I'm FROM Florida, unless you've got a waterside lot in KeyWest... heheheh

I've noted your concern too, Sort, about him spinning another tale but I got to tell you... Doc Harley sees the MAN I'm with, his CORE... Dr New England has one chance to impress me... Nothing is gonna get by ME here, so, don't forget that part. I will be ACTIVELY pursuing her response to his story... *grin*

To address my husband's mother, I will say it again a by product of deaf culture upbringing...: SHELTERED LIFE, lack of exposure and problem solving skills (her parents were hearing and shipped her off to residential school) to the real world, behavioral problems but not enough to medicate, she's physically run down as a result of her insufficient coping skills...

For example she discovered early on I'm not catholic and was aghast! I told her I didn't believe in Catholicism(no offense anyone), praying to a priest for example(whats wrong with direct conversations with God?!). She looked at me as if I were insane, she 'admonished' me (you can't be my grandchildren's godmother if you're not Catholic, I said 'so be it" and oh by the way there 9 of those!!)and mother said no marriage should occur between me and her son unless I converted, (we eloped to Jamaica by the way--with a justice of the peace and just 3 FRIENDS witnessing) the day we told her we eloped she ran to husband's oldest brother's bathroom and remained there for probably 3 hours if I recall correctly--sobbing...

Completely unconsolable--utterly and completely.

So it is what it is, and yes he respected her much when I first met him and started being with him but when he moved to be with me within 3 months of meeting me, I suspect his perspective of his mother began to change (she felt he was insane for moving 6 or 7 states south to be with me). His mother also gave him months of hell for going to Europe with 7 friends for 6 weeks prior to meeting me...

It is what it is...

It just a glimpse for ya'll...

ML,

I didn't see anything from her except those 3 words (yes they are buzzwords) and 'you both will be doing homework because the brunt of the work will rest on YOUR shoulders, I can't be around forever'

Please know I am WITH you and fully agree with you--stay with Doc H, HELP ME convince HIM to go with Doc Harley and drop our Friday appointment....without demanding, I'm to refrain from that...*grin*

C'mon Southern Belle--what will work??