I am new to this--today, and I just busted my husband having an emotional affair for the third time. Yeah.. I know, whats wrong with me and how did I get to this but it seems like he has no coping skills and when the going gets tough, he flees, emotionally,finds a more sympathetic ear(always in a woman) and it becomes inappropriate and an emotional affair. First time i didn't 'expose' him, second time, i drug him to counseling--didn;t last I guess since here I am. He uses a pager messaging system and today when confronted I forced him to deleted said woman from his contact list. He did so and I witnessed and ensured it.
I confronted said woman--full of denial, but remember I read their convo...oh god... I managed to set up a meeting with the three of us because I have a friend who had told me about the no contact letter and I'm sorry but i want to watch her read the letter (IF he writes it and agrees to give it to her--he agrees to meet--3 of us but doesn't know about no contact letter yet) he's obviously trying to gaslight me as well as she... I will hear your feedback and I'm sorry I can't recall all the acronymons on this thing but I'm a quick study!
I did the exposure email to mostly family and a few friends and...he's VERY mad.. He's due home any minute and all I can say is "i didn't have emotional affair and i'm sorry I am trying to save my marriage for THIRD time."
his sister got so mad at me assumed I was listening to rumors, I had to talk to her and say 'look, this is THIRD time, I need your help to save this marriage, don't pick sides, just encourage him to save our marriage.

Hi Mer, Sorry you are here. I'm pretty new too, but I can tell you that you have come to the right place. I think that you need to give more detail though so that you can get more help.

Record all the evidence and keep it with a friend. Log times people and places. If his sister is not interested in helping the marriage - walk away.

bumbo,
I think that after the 3rd time a man cheats the W must ask herself a question: can I trust this man any longer? Do I want to spend the rest of my life with a cheater who lies to me as soon as he can?
You H, like mine, has no coping skills and when the going gets tough, he flees, emotionally,finds a more sympathetic ear(always in a woman) and it becomes inappropriate and an emotional affair (your very words from the post fit my H to a t, but my H's As turn into physical ones very quickly).
There is nothing wrong with you. H is the problem as he choses to have A, you do not make him have one.
In my opinion (IMO) if you two do not get into M couseling (MC)your M will be subject to continuos ups and downs related to your H's A.
You need to make a list of things your H has to do in order to make it up for you and to work on the M.
On the top of the list there should be both individual and MC.
blessings

Hi!

I hope you don't mind me chiming in to give a bit more detail.

Everyone, this is her H's THIRD EA. The first one was around 5 years ago; the second one, about 2 or 3 years ago? Mer, correct me if I'm wrong. This one may have lasted as long as last September or October or thereabout.

All of these EA's have been conducted mostly online, on Instant Messenger, in one affair there was also a lot of talking on the phone which Mer witnessed.

Mer discovered this EA two nights ago and confronted her WH yesterday morning. He initially denied it but then admitted it. OW is a coworker. Mer also works at the same place, but she is middle management. Yesterday Mer went to OW and set up a meeting for Friday for the three of them to sit down and talk (outside of the workplace).

Last night, after we talked, she decided to go ahead with exposure. She exposed to his family and a couple of friends. It sounded like to me they (including me) bombarded him with emails/IMs and he definitely got very mad. Mer is nervous about his anger but I have assured her it will blow over. I have sent her the Carrot and the Stick thread and the Do's and Don'ts, also the thread for newly BS's.

Does anyone have any advice for her? Please help her, as this is her third EA which is out of my league. I have also loaned her my book SAA.

Mer, list of acronymons for you: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2282858&page=1

More important you need to tell the OWH.

How long have they been M'd?

Any children involved?

As TheRoad's suggested, the OWH should also be informed.

One of them (the WH or the OW) may have to leave the job.

Oh yes, Mer has already sent an email to OWH and notified him of the A.

Supposedly OW is in the process of getting a divorce from OWH and is also apparently 'dating' someone else. I find this part a bit fishy, and have warned Mer that OW might be lying about the state of her marriage and who knows what else.

Mer and WH has been married around 5 years? Somewhere around there. Together for about 10 years. No children.

Now I will back off...

OW lying?? Nah, never happens .

(yes, I'm being sarcastic..!)

They also might be lying about the A being only emotional.
This is especially true if the people involved are not just internet bound but are also able to see eachother in flesh and blood. Guys...we are talking about adults here not little kids, and sex is a big component in an A.
blessings

Okay, I'm communicating with Mer now. She's not able to post now. So I'm going to post update for her.

She waited for WH to arrive home last night feeling terrified of how he would act. He had been very angry and was IMing her asking her what the he77 she was doing (when she exposed). However, when he arrived home he was very touchy-huggy, wasn't mad at all, talked with her for hours, acted like they would work it out. She felt it was a good, long, intense talk, she felt he was being open and honest with her.

But then this morning when she got up for work she discovered he had locked his pager and she couldn't get in. Prior to this she always had open access to his pager whenever he was home and she was able to look at it anytime. Now she can't. This pager IS in her name so there is the option that she can shut it off, but she would like to hear feedback on this.

OH! She's still home, hasn't left for work yet. Should she take the pager with her? Should she wake him up? Advice, anyone??

Another thing: she's concerned if she takes the pager with her, H will resort to using the computer, but she hasn't installed keylogger yet...

Is H still home?
She could ask him to unlock the pager so she can check it.
If he refuses then it is clear he has no intention to end the
A(s) and all last nite's nicessness was just Kool aid to keep W happy and continue on cheating only this time doing it more carefully.

Mer:
You are middle management. OW is below you right?

I would not attend this meeting. ANYTHING you say/threaten can by used BY her agianst you.
There is an old addage: "don't <blank> where you eat". That means, YOUR job should be protected.

OH you may think that because of what THEY did was wrong that it would be OK for you to be there, I see issues. And, if I were
in H.R. and an employee came to me and said; "Oh boo hoo, my OM's wife is putting pressure on me." I would believe it.

Crazy crazy crazy things happen in these situations. COVER your tuckus.

Yes I'm middle management and OWis below me. I will not be talking to her again. Ever.

I want to take the pager....and let him stew about it all day...this is bad but I don't think he understands the damage he did by getting it locked..

installing keylogger should be easy---but I think taking the pager is best option and leaving a love note in its place.

I actually have considered getting rid of our pagers altogether....

I'm not going to be able to check this all day because even though I'm middle management I am manning a vacant position in my program and I am close with Fainne78 and I want her to post our dialogues and thoughts etc. have to go to work now.

Thank you everyone for reading and giving opinions--I'm totally and utterly ill and I think my hope s wearing thin...

I'm sick with this I love aetna's reply--wake him and ask him to open it, but I MUST go to work--i've had 3 hours sleep and I want to take away easy access to talking to her or anyone... it will force him to find a computer to try talking and his job doesn't allow that-least not for long periods of time...

For what reason does he use a pager? Pagers are so "Twentieth Century." Most people use cell phones today, since they can call and text, eliminating the need for a pager.

I'm tempted to say that since the pager is in Merbumbo's name, she should take it. But if it's vital to his job, doing so could be a bad move.

From where I sit, Merbumbo and her husband have some serious boundary issues. He cheats and she lets him. He either is incapable of devoting himself to this marriage, and she should take a serious look at whether she wants to continue in it, or the two of them need to take some concrete steps to eliminate the conditions that make it possible for him to behave this way.

The latter is what this site is about. The solution isn't going to be found in a single day, so I advise Merbumbo to read and learn everything she can from this site, decide what she wants to do, and then if she chooses to work on saving the marriage, to let the pros here guide her.

MelodyLane, can you help her?

She has taken WH's pager with her to work and left a little love note in its place.

She's still very nervous, lost, feels sick.

BTW, WH was angry about my email... the fact that I called it a "dirty, disgusting affair"... he insists it's not a physical affair so it's not the same thing... whatever, wayward speak

Fred, the reason for pagers is they are both deaf and use data only plans.

I agree with what you've said but the thing is I know them both personally and IMO, her WH is (was I should say) a really good person. But he is a conflict avoider like the rest of his family and there are not that many good male role models around. I do believe that once he goes through withdrawl and stops being wayward, and begins working on himself and their M, that he has the potential to become a wonderful H. From what I can see he is VERY CONFLICTED about wanting to stay with her and wanting to keep the EA going.

Interesting thing about the pager being locked - he has enlisted the aid of someone else to help him with this as he isn't tech savvy, sometime last night before he came home.

So...they all work together, right? Plexie, take this information to your HR department and let THEM haul them both into HR and give them a talking to. If they are using company time, they can be in trouble.

Install a keylogger on your computer asap, before he locks you out of the computer.

Did you take the pager with you? I like the idea of leaving a love letter in its stead.

Do not walk away...RUN AWAY! Now. Period, end of post. Be done with him...

Catperson, yes they all work together, but she has a good professional career going - finally - and she doesn't want to jeopardize it in any way by going to HR.

LawfulGood, she wants to save her marriage. I realize that some people on here think that serial cheaters are a separate breed, but the fact is they have a long history together and she has invested a lot into that marriage.

Had she followed MB for the first EA, I truly believe that there wouldn't be any more As following.

She also had a question about counseling - her WH suggested that they go to counseling again, but she wonders if it would work this time. Your thoughts?

I don't understand. You said "my email". Why is WH involving you?

Because she exposed last night (I was with her) and I sent him an email (after other people had already emailed him asking what was going on) telling him to stop the affair and to focus on his marriage...

My H had a PA last summer and I did Plan A. She and her H were some of the first people I exposed to. Her H feels that his A is different from my H's A...

How can exposing misuse of work time by two OTHER people jeopardize HER career?

If this ever comes up again, ask him if he showed his wife his discussions with OW as he was carrying them on?

If he says no, then gently remind him that THAT is the definition of an affair - hiding it from your spouse.

Cat,I see what you're saying but-- you have to understand that deaf culture and the fact that its a VERY small and very tight knit community. gossip is vicious in this world. I need to rise above this and not bring my personal life to work. I'm management.

Has OWH responded to exposure?

If H refuses to take the password lock off the phone, you need to start thinking about how you are going to handle that now. Remember no lovebusting, no matter what. But be very clear...in no uncertain terms...that that isn't going to work for you if he wishes to rebuild the M.

If he takes the password off the phone, get flexispy on it ASAP.

where is lovebusters? help.. I need to read it...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html

I think fainne said she sent you Pepperband's Carrot and Stick, I am guessing that is the abbreviated list. This is the full version, it is a must read when you get done with the lovebusters:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2296184#Post2296184

I do understand, but this isn't about your personal life. It's about them using the workplace to carry on an affair, which is harmful to your company; if you OWNED the company, wouldn't you want to know employees are wasting company time - your pay dollars - to do something you can get sued for? It's about exposing the affair, which is the only way you will retain your husband.

I too had a lot invested in to my marriage -- 18 years, two DDs, left career paths to support WWs career, stay-at-home dad for 4 years to support WW and DDs. And when I found out about OM#3 I found MB.com and busted my tail for months to try and recover the marriage...only to find out about OM#4. Enough. Done.

As far as counseling, I believe it is very hard to find good counselors. Truely good ones understand their job is to help people heal, move forward and eventually stop going to counseling. I believe it is very easy for counseling / counselors to sway to the dark side -- encouraging people to keep coming back for counseling because it keeps the money flowing in to the counselors.

It has been eight long months since I served my WW divorce papers. Eight longs months of hurt, pain, introspection, self-examination, dealing with the fallout, helping our DDs adjust, etc. I certainly did not want to divorce my WW, but I was left with no choice. I simply could not live with the lies, the deceipt any more. What we had was so broken there was no way I could put the pieces back together again. I could never trust her again, period. Plan D was the right thing for me to do.

I have much respect for many of the people here. Some have lived through worse than I did and are still married / together. I will tell you that trying to recover my marriage was difficult and challenging. But nothing, NOTHING was as hard as handing my WW divorce papers. Nothing. Divorce sucks.

If someone wants to try and recover their marriage, go for it. Utilize all means you can call to arms and get after it. But if you reach a point in your life where I did, where you simply say, "enough," well, then Plan D is the road you must head down. It is not a choice that I or you or anyone else can make for someone. It is something they must look deep inside themselves and decide.

My personal advice for the OP is to move on. There are a gazillion other people out there in the world that will treat you better and you will not have to worry about more afairs, more lies. Nuff said. LG, out.

Plexie, 3 affairs in 5 years is a way of life, not an aberration of character. You need to understand that recovery is a major long shot here and you have no children. Do you plan on having kids with this man? I sure hope not.

But it is not impossible if extraordinary precautions are put into place. EP's would be for the affairees to never see each other again, and that means at work. Another key thing would be for him to stop using instant messenger services and to give her all of his passwords.

My suggestion here would be to jump to the STICK part of Plan A and dont even bother with the carrot. You have been through too much and unmet needs are not the cause of his serial cheating. He cheats because he has no boundaries whatsoever and because he has never had to pay any consequences.

So, I would conduct a mass scale exposure, including the workplace. If he will then end his affair by leaving the job and commit to counseling with Steve Harley, it might be worth a shot. But he needs to use Steve Harley and i will you why. He won't be able to put anything over on Steve. Steve will hammer him if he tries to pull any crap and make sure he stays on track.

Don't take your chances with someone else because most marriage counselors do not have the slightest idea how to save a marriage and have no understanding of the dynamics of adultery. They have an 84% failure rate. She cannot afford to waste time on unqualified counselors.

You wouldn't be bringing your personal life to work. We are suggesting you report a WORKPLACE AFFAIR between your H and the OW to Human Resources and to their supervisors. Your company is being placed at legal risk because of this affair. They have a right to know. Many companies will not tolerate this and that is their right.

And affairs do elicit gossip. That is a consequence of cheating. You should also know that workplace affairs cause enormous morale issues in the ranks. The cheaters will be ostracized because they cannot be trusted to be part of a team.

Developed by Brits Brat, board member and corporate attorney. This letter should be mailed/delivered to the Director of HR, with cc's to a key VP and the infidel's supervisors. It should go to 3 people with all being cc'd so that no one is tempted to throw the letter away.

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,

BS
_________________________

p.s. the third time is not a "charm," it can mean unmanagable - but very warranted - RESENTMENT that is impossible to overcome.

Mind you, I don't know a thing about management, but don't you have a duty to disclose such a conflict of interest to your higher-ups anyway?

ps ~ Please listen to Melody. She knows what she is talking about.

Thanks, Susie.

Plexie, does the OW's husband know about the affair? You may have posted about this, but I didn't see it.

And does the OW have a facebook account?

OWH said he cant help me he said he's been separated from her over a year and filed divorce this past summer. i asked why the marriage ended but I don't think I'm gonna get answer.... and yes OW ha facebook account as I and my husband too OW is friend of both of ours and OWH is actually friend of mine on Facebook.

I ran into WH today on the job and he asked for pager back.he told me my note to him about having good day isn't going to happen. i said i understand but i hope have good one anyway. he said i cut off his support and he dont have a pager for emergency... I said not until he tells me passwords and we sit together and read the messages. He said he has right to privacy and he said that if he got into a car accident he would need a way to contact for emergency. I said he will need to rebuild trust to earn privacy back. he said he isn't having affair and he isn't addicted and its b.s. he said this big problem that hes not sure we will get over. then he said cut off the pager I took (i pay the bills) and I said ok if you get new pager you got to leave. i said does that mean you lied yesterday saying you want counseling and our early morning talk was that lies too? if you want o work it out you have build trust. he said he didn't lie and nodded furiously when i said you're the one who said wanted to go counseling...we kinda got interrupted and both needed to leave anyway...

*at one point he kinda brattishly 'screamed' at me that I broke promise and checked his pager...and that is lying to him so I lie too * i checked because i saw the signs....and Iknew...

i remained calm and reiterated the fact he is one that had affair, for third time and if he serious we have sit together with pager. he is lost, not himself and addicted to the affair,and thats why this is happening that he isn't himself and thats why he doesnt see his behavior is destryoing marraige... he saying hes not having affair (looking down) he isnt addicted--thats b.s. over and over...

i hit a low point during this cuz i know i must remain calm and he is still saying we go counseling and he still say he want work out but this pager issue is big problem and i told him its cuz you're upset you cant continue affair. he said you deleted her contact info. i said you found a way to lock your pager which means that you found another way to talk to her and you are CONTINUING the affair. he looks away. he looks like death warmed over...pale and black bags... and cant even look at me... i think he sick with his own self and he's on an edge.. his history of bad coping skills is going to push him off... push off of what I dont know or where he will go either..i don't know him..

I'm lost, can't eat.....I'm lonely and hurt and destroyed...

we are past th elovebusters and thanks for the stick advice...umm.. I requested counseling with Dr harley for tmrw and I know probably it wont happen, i asked for monday and tuesday but honestly i'm going to be home tmrw ALL day (both WH and me will not be working)and i don't know what to do, i can't go to a friends house that my house(mortgage my name only) and i wont leave my home... i will be in serious financial turmoil should he leave for another place but I'll look for roommates... i will try... i have a sinking feeling Melody is right and there really is no hope for me...SERIAL CHEATER (knife in heart)...

yes. resentment.... i think that signpost is just up ahead and his angry outburst today is speeding me towards that destination.

I am wondering if you should be reading up and learning about Plan B. That is where you give your WH a love letter, giving him the conditions that he would need to meet in order for you to invest any more in this M...eg, NC, 100% transparency, counseling with the Harleys etc.....and then you cut off ALL communications with him and he moves out...

Not only does your H need to experience consquences for having a third EA, but you may lose all your desire to recover the marriage if he continues lovebusting you this way...

{{{{{{Plexle}}}}}} Hang in there.

I really do appreciate all of your help bu I am unable to move right now on the human resources exposure aspect of this--and what you're all suggesting. I need to think.

(((((Plexle)))))

Sleep on all this tonight. You're barely functioning, only few hours of sleep, you've barely eaten.

For tomorrow morning, I would suggest get out of the house to think. Take your laptop to Starbucks for a bit or something like that.

"but she has a good professional career going - finally - and she doesn't want to jeopardize it in any way by going to HR."

She has nothing to fear she is not carrying on an affair.

Plexie, exposure, and I mean a nuclear exposure, is going to be your best weapon against his affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy so exposure is ruinous. Our most impactful exposures have been those that were done on facebook and workplace exposures. Affairs are like a crack addiction, and exposure is like bringing in a crowd of onlookers into the crack house to watch the crackheads get high.

But it needs to be done in strategic, methodical way all on the same day so that it hits like a tsunami. The affairee will be furious so it is best to have them angry over one big exposure and get over it instead of several exposures dragged out over time.

Exposure targets should be:

1. workplace
2. family - friends
3. OP's facebook friends and parents

We have many marriages on this forum that are recovering today because of exposure. Here is what Dr Harley says about it:

entire article

No, he does not have the right to the privacy to destroy you behind your back. No one has that right. And people who have nothing to hide...........don't hide.

plexie, another suggestion is to confront the OW and let her know that her gig is up and hell is coming. Tell her you will fight for your marriage and she would be wise to stay away from your H. Make as much trouble for her as possible.

In the facebook exposure, I would suggest sending an email to all her facebook friends with something like this:

Dear friend of Skankyhola,

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of her friends should be aware that Skanky is having an affair with my husband, Joe. We have been married for 5 years. They have been having this affair since October according to the evidence.

I would ask that you use your influence with Skanky to persuade her to leave my husband alone. You should also watch your own husbands around her because she is no friend to marriage.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify her parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx.
Thank you, Plexie

Then ask a friend to turn them in.

It's 12:50 and he's not home, no telling where he went when dismissed at 11:45pm... I am not in agreement with facebook friends exposure... I need to think about it..and honestly I'm starting to lean towards keeping his pager hidden and, saying goodbye...

I know it's hard to deal with him when he's pushing back at YOU for pushing back at HIM. But it can pay off in the end. Don't give up yet. To get the REAL man back that you need, you have to fight this affair. It sucks, but there it is; that's what you're stuck with right now.

Here's the deal. He is an addict right now. All he can think about is getting his next fix of her. He'll lie, steal, humiliate you, even give up his own kids if he had to, to get that fix.

That is why exposing the affair is your ONLY weapon. He will NEVER become your old H as long as he has access to her. How to do that? By telling everyone he cares about that he is making a mistake, and asking them to help you set him straight. This is not about humiliating him, getting revenge on him...nothing of the sort. Exposure is about showing him and her that what they 'think' is love or whatever, is actually stinking, slimy filth - and they will only see that if they see it reflected in the eyes of their parents, siblings, best friends, pastors...

That is why you have to expose. And I gotta tell you, in the 3 years I've been here, I've never seen anything work as well or as quickly to stop an affair as exposing to one's Facebook friends. Nothing.

Bottom line, if you don't expose the affair, you might as well just leave. Because he'll either dump you for her, or he'll know that he can do whatever he wants, rub it in your face even, and you'll be so weak and dependent that you'll let him do anything as long as he doesn't leave you. THAT is sad.

I have sent exposure email already i was protesting the facebook format...

i thought the exposure email is to most important people in our life... i sent that yesterday i think.. got not much support and some support...he got asked a million questions... got angry during exposure period but came home all nice-nice cuz he secretly locked his pager and he got his 'fix' of me i guess knowing he had a locked pager and i wouldn't be able to access his aduleterous behavior...

soon as I saw it locked i knew why...and took it with me. I have hidden it.

i'm very wired anxious and sick and i don't see how facebook thing is going to work...

you are saying email every facebook MUTUAL friend of OW and WH???

I think you're starting to see how his wayward self is thinking. Good work on the exposure so far.

And who do you think is ON Facebook? Only everyone in his/her life with whom he/she wants to keep in contact. Does that not sound like important people?

Look at it this way. You're already halfway out the door. Ready to quit. But you've only done a partial exposure, so you're only getting partial results. Since you're already halfway out the door, why not give the MB plan a fair shake and do a FULL exposure, to see if it shakes the crap loose from the rafters? Also, one day of exposure isn't enough to judge its validity yet. Add in things like a parent telling him that 'skank' is not welcome to their home...stuff like that can add up and blow a hole skyhigh in their fantasy thinking.

Plus, in your situation, I don't really think he wants to leave you. He is a cake eater. Show him you have too much dignity to accept that.

Look, in 3 years, I've seen those who do NO exposure (they never come back with success stories); those who do 'safe' exposures (they may get the WS back, but it's on the WS's terms, not the BS's terms); and those who get MAD and INDIGNANT and fight like hell to let the whole world know what a crappy thing their WS is doing to them. All of the best success stories fall into that category. This is the one time in your life that you need to be strong and mad and lean/mean. Let HIM know what YOU are willing to accept in a H (hint: it doesn't include cake eating - you deserve better than that).

I am torn, Cat and thank god you are awake right now, I am half-dead, little sleep almost zero food, diarheah...just coming off sinus infection...

I think but I'm torn because a big part of me is starting to get angry and starting to scream "he needs to get the hell out of my life' and a VERY small voice wants him and marriage to work... but i'm freaking nuts cuz its third time and when I am going to WAKE UP and start protecting me!!! I'm getting mad... and i such a rookie and idndt do full scale exposure... i have a lucrative position at work and don't want to deal with this... i'm manning a vacant position and I'm also manager of the program I work for... its been a very strenuous 14 weeks you see of me doing 2 jobs and... I don't want deal with this at work... so i dont think goign to human resources for MY SANITY is right...

I'm seeing your VERY GOOD point about me half way out the door...and going ahead to tell facebook friends of OW.

Don't make big decisions too quickly, while you're under duress. But DO know what you can accept. Think back to before you married him. What would you have accepted then? Why is it different now? You are just as valuable as him.

So, if you're not willing to expose at work, do you know friends of hers at work? Maybe you can do a sideways exposure there, let her/his/your friends put some pressure on them at work. Nothing people like more than to gossip, you know?

Do you have friends you can go to for support right now? What about your parents? HIS parents? I assume you've told all of them, right?

ETA: Buy some of those nutrition drinks, ok? If you don't feel like eating, they can help keep you healthy til you do. Also, try melatonin pills to help you sleep. It's all natural, but effective.

Umm, you said exposure has to be all at once right?? so thats why I'm freaking out __i did exposure to close loved ones and friends already but not...the facebook and work thing...

Fainee (she is junior member and has posted here) and I are talking, i met with fainne and susqieQ and she and fainne live nearby me... often she offers me support and introduced me to MB.

my parents DONT KNOW--they are divorced since age 3. father in Wisc currently going thru Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from Vietnam War (reluctant to add this to his list of medical and anxiety issues).. mother is in florida and i'm not going to get support I need from her as she gave birth to me when she was 17 has never recovered from losing her adolescence and my grandmother basically raised me (she's dead, RIP since 2 years) and honestly mom has an alcohol problem and immature take on life... she will scream 'leave him now' (i am in new england, far away from them) I am the only child.

my WH's sister deleted my exposure email from my WH's mother's pager because WH mother has health problems(she does, she looks awful--its just a long list and my WH's brother is suffering from liver cancer, that is the biggest reason she is stressed) and so I lost that Parent battle I think..

I grew up in a very abusive household with alcoholics...i have suffered verbal,sexual, mental, physical abuse from the time i was age 8 thru 17 yrs old by my step father... i became deaf-quickly while in high school....learned to lip-read and fight the principal that I was not suddenly dumb with my sudden inexplicable deafness... I graduated high school and 4yrs college reading lips (this is a big big thing to accomplish) I had 2 serious relationships of about 3 yrs each and left one because the love was gone and the other both because he treated me like sh8t and i didn't take it. i was alone happily for bout 1 year and met WH--been together 8 yrs, married 4.

my WH grew up in a very sheltered family at residential school from age 3 to 18yrs old(stay there 5 days a week and go home to parents on the weekends) WH has never seen his parents argue or solve a conflict, his mother screamed when WH or siblings needed discipline and father ALWAYS stayed silent. and then WH went to residential college and has only had 3 or 4 brief on/off relationships... before he met me... my WH has no coping skills, he has very weak problem solving skills, he tends to 'escape' to ebay to focus on his MASSIVE baseball card collection( I'm talking like 100-150 boxes of cards spread out in 2 rooms of my home.... he is VERY independent ( I feel like he could really be alone and suffice on masturbation...and we haven't made love often (last time, i think maybe once and I can't remma when maybe within 6 weeks ago) even before EA DDay because as he states it "our communication isn't smooth so i'm not comfortable to make love"... we have basically been having marriage problems for about 2 years... since I bought the house we live in... I know now because of the 2 EA before this one that we never solved our marital issues and its been one long....what?? argument??

i will make protein powder shakes for nutrition...shake

I have looked and found about 5 people that know both WH and OW and they love gossip. Will that 'count' as work exposure for now... They are all on facebook and all work at the same place???

I am privately considering going to a supervisor of both OW and WH that I trust and know will not ignore this. my HR department is fishy and cant be trusted--trust me as management personnel(i've seen things....) and I feel WH will listen to that supervisor in particular because he respects her as she helped him get thru a traumatic experience at work. he witnessed a staff hit a child and he reported it and participated in investigation...the child services could not find other evidence against him and therefore that horrible staff came back to work. this supervisor explained it in a way that help WH NOT QUIT HIS JOB. and thanks be to god as he is deaf(I am too) and economy is bad enough these days for hearing people to get ANY job... *see above about WH lack of coping skills** I mean he hold things inside for like 3 months then tells me when hes upset.. he literally held inside himself not saying very much about witnessing the trauma of the child...until that staff unexpectedly reported to work... he flipped, quit his job (verbally) and cried with this supervisor,eventually retarcted his verbal resignation and stayed working,,,he trust/respects her... i think it make more impact to have her confront them than director of HR....

ok WH came home and( I couldn't think straight with all of the concepts, plan a, plan b, use stick not carrot...)but basically I said this is my home my safe place and you don't belong here because you ruin my safety and i must be safe in my own home...he said this OUR home and I said no because you hurt me you cant stay unless you agree not to hurt me no more...its MY home right now and I'm making it safe place to be...

i think i messed this up according to MB peeps I am sure I mixed my apples and oranges but i looked into myself and i found what I can live with and i found strength and I said "if you stay here you must meet following conditions":


1. Wh to write NC letter to OW that I will mail,

2. you cannot have a pager for a very long time

3. you must speak to me with respect, no insults,no mocking, be calm...if you need to leave to have cig to calm yourself--do so and I will do same.

4. you must attend at least 5 session with me and Dr Harley, you will pay for half of each session (we have always had separate finances, separate accounts, because his parents taught him that way)

5. you must wear your wedding ring every hour of everyday from now on --never remove it (wore it 30days to honor me and then took it off--it bthered him and he always played with it....)

6. you must find another job


Then....

he said too harsh, I want negotiate how can i contact my family, etc, i said you must agree conditions I will not discuss specifics until you agree..period.
(note: he didn't use any other way to contact me or anyone else, he has hotmail for example and was so freaked out I took his pager, he couldn't remember my pager address and like I was gambling he couldn't remember OW's email address too)

i said you should thought before you have affair...
your affair destroy me
it destroy my heart
it destroy our marriage
it destroy my respect for you

and it destroy your job
because of your choice to have workplace affair...

and hes struggling very very very very hard and said want negotiate (what if cant find job, how will contact family, how to afford our heat with no job)
And I point an dnod at out front door and i said theres the door
he said i dont care about OW, its the job...

i said no negotiations. accept conditions or leave--the door is open.

you will not remain here unless you agree to conditions.

i also said he could easily go to OW's place and have easy life if it too hard here. I said 'don't agree and waste my time, agree because you mean it, this is home that will be a safe place from now on'

I simply couldnt remember everything from all of concepts and this what I came up with....

have to go he returns from smoking now...

OW very pissed from initial exposure email I included her 'best friend' (who was my roommate here for a while) he intended to reply to me and he mistakenly sent response to OW, She is LIVID.

##she livid because I think her best friend 'tattled' on her and started telling me things...and i know she livid from my exposure email too.. however OW best friend has not attempted to re-contact me and according to WH (WH's bro in law reports this OW did not contact speak to WH, she spoke to WH's bro in law) has spent numerous hours on VP apologizing to OW for his 'mistake as he intended to reply to me BS not her OW'.... her 'best friend' and my former roommate is VERY GOSSIPY and he became attached to us I think and thats what i believe his response was--a betrayal of her feelings for WH to me...

WH is challenging me on 'WHEN' he must leave his job and I'm struggling... I'm 24 hours awake and barely eaten anything... I feel maybe we should go to sleep..I told him the condition is he must leave the job that WHEN he leaves is not important (trying to figure out a plan to observe them in a time that I can...) until he leaves the job--like for example the OW and WH work together to observe students during dinner time and I could probably 'casually' show up and eat there every night until he leaves the job... he doesnt know i am thinking of this...

anyway only other time i wouldnt be able to provide supervision of him is during activity time for the students... but by the time i talk to his superviser that element should be 'on fire' and hot with eyes on them....

i forgot --during the time i gave him conditions---that he said I am copying Fainne and her WH's 'approach' by forcing my WH write letter and leave job. (WH remembers me talking with him about Fainne's WH and consequences and look where he is now....)

i have update--WH came to me after a cig break outdoors he went bathroom then bedroom and change into PJ's and he said 'we need to go to bed now" I said I cannot have you stay here until I have your answer... and he made a gesture i saw as surrender but not officially spoken... odd
i said please sit here and tell me your response to my conditions.
he sat down and he said i will agree to all your conditions because I want to save our marriage."
I said "wow..." and then I said where do you deserve to sleep? he said I know that I don't deserve to sleep with you but I leave it up to you...
i said "i am not sure right now, you can join me tonight in bed and tmrw we will wake and maybe discuss again if that was right choice, ok with you? yes he says.
then we hugged and he said pleas eyou need rest... I said I will be in in a minute.

oh my stars...i thought he was going to flee... the hardest hell of a challenge in my whole life is ahead of me...

Hang in there Plex. You did the right things. Get some sleep and BTW. What happened with the mistaken email responses was the outcome of the affair, not your fault. He put you in that position.
I take it you work at a school for the deaf, not that it matters its just something that I picked up on.

The exposure is what tells the world that you love your Husband and have not given up on his ability to tell right from wrong. We all make mistakes and are weak untill we are forced to be strong. Its just the way it is. I agree with Melody that resentment might be a big problem in the future but the hope is that your husband finally sees the light and fights to be the Man he could be. Then he should kiss your feet till you trust him again.
The people here and more importantly Dr Harley can help him grow up if he wants to. This doesn't have anything to do with his parents marriage or his past bad habits other than he needs to come clean and hold himself to a higher power. God if you will.
Demand the best from him or you will get less than that. Its your right and truthfully, you will be doing him a favor by making him straighten up.
I feel that you need to take the infidelity issue to someone im magagement higher on the totem pole than you who has integrity and stands for it. You will also be doing the school(?) a favor. If this seems to be an issue you feel you need to cover up then what other things are you allowing to slide by? The people you manage deserve to have the best care right? You are very brave so show them not to live in fear of the truth..right? Am I stating something tangible here?
I understand that what you do has everything to do with proper communication. Take your time, don't panic, you know what that does.
The people here will be the best friends in this you can find.

Get some rest, meditate yourself to sleep on a good thought. Do not be afraid.
Get some rest

Tommorrows another day and it will get better now

Plexle,

I hope you get some sleep today!

Page me when you wake up. I have a few ideas for you to think about.

Please reread everything and let it sink in! Marinate in your mind for a bit. Don't let WH distract you.

(((Plexle)))

Wow! Great job!

Swift, strong, serious. Got it!

I am up.

Just got confirmation appointment from Dr Harley for our first session--Monday 10:30 my time.

I got love bank inventory...why are the questions asked with _________? I'm supposed to pick a name to insert in each one?

recall that we are both deaf and on data only pager service plans.

I need help now from you MB peeps to discuss a strategy regarding the pager issue since he put a password lock on it.I have hidden the pager. I would like him to be able to contact his family for support right now, I spoke with his oldest brother in depth last night for example and I would love for WH to be able to hear things from his brother... but as you can see I am leery...

I was trying to install keylogger at 6am while he was sleeping and got too confused from lack of sleep because I heard theres a free download and somehow no matter where I looked there was a 'need to buy' option, then I clicked onto a link and its started asking me for delivery address and I freaked out, so I gave up and went to bed.

He has a hotmail account that I know the password to, I was thinking to ask him who of family and friends he wants to contact and then give him the email addresses he needs and let him use the hotmail account for that... I don't know if he realizes that I still know his password on that account.

i was thinking that he has to create a new account like gmail that we both can enter with a password that he can use for now...
but since has hotmail account (due to his ebay relationships that is primary reason he has a hotmail account) maybe I should just "quietly' monitor that account??

At some point I could offer email addresses of his family or friends so he can contact them? the fact that I have his pager I now hold ALL contact information with ALL people and since its locked, and not sure how to go about this now, I was thinking I will need to try to go to my service provider as its owner and account manager (its totally under my name)and tell them to remove the lock and view the messages privately or I should have him give me pass word and view all messages on it together?

please note a large majority of the emails is going to be post-exposure comments questions...

please note, the pager is how he communicates with his boss working with troubled children who like to run away for example when they get angry, that info is on there too..

please note, I am actually concerned about WH having vehicle problems as he drives a very old vehicle that is bound to have problems (trying to save money to buy a good used car) that vehicle is old and has no heat, having a pager saves him form certain frostbite, we are in new england it is VERY COLD here...

The commute to work from home is not so long for him--he endures the commute without heat but if he should get hurt or break down due to engine failure...he would need a way to contact right?? i am concerned, he doesn't even have my pager address memorized, when I took is pager he literally had no way to contact me except thru phone and thats only because I called home from work while he was home alone post EA discovery...and he was ignoring me...obviously conversing with OW on same pager...

First, did he give you the password to the phone? This is a big if he is refusing. Have you shown him the Requirements for Recovery from this website? That requires him to be radically honest and 100% transparent (to not hide anything from you). Maybe you could print it out and show it to him. If he does not agree to this and will not give you the password, I would not take him seriously and I would consider Plan B.

The only way I would allow him to have the pager is if he agrees to only use it for work, family and ONLY male friends AND you can get flexispy on there. I would take any unnecessary/untraceable chat features such as AIM off. Did you contact Flexispy to see if their Blackberry package will cover all the bases? It says on their website they have a 100% guarantee, they will return your money if it won't work for you.

Lastly regarding work, they can't work together without endangering the M. If you are going to let him continue for a short time while he is looking for another job, then at the very least it needs to be exposed at work so that there will be many eyes on them at all times.

Susie--no i have not brought up the pager or password issue to him. i have hidden it, and I am asking for advice how to go about that issue here.... I want all the facts or suggestions or words of advice... before I broach the subject...

Simply remain CALM and DETERMINED as you were last night. He will either COMPLY with your boundaries, or he will leave.

Period.

Do NOT cave in now; it will only teach him to run you over.

Tell him as soon as he has met your conditions, he can have his pager back.

i think I need keylogger and flexi-spy info. WH has been sent to store and will be gone for an hour...or so... remember I need flexi-spy on a blackberry that is currently locked as I have not brought up the subject yet...

Since he woke, WH is acting...restless, sad/mad/hurt/depressed/agreeable/looks ill with paleness... we made a list together as we both havent been eating, eventually he offered a favorite food to get for dinner- so I wrote and gave WH a list of things we need from several stores and he agreed to go... Iasked if he was comfortable in us having a hug and he gave me a nice one. however, for the first time in YEARS he did not kiss me goodbye nor give me the standard "i love you" wave in ASL.

In the past WH always said kissing me goodbye was sign of his love....I explained it was a habit not a sign of love and here we are now...

I understand he is going thru withdrawal and shock and he can't quite think straight...

I need you understand he isn't asking me for the pager... i am trying to get advice on what to do with that particular aspect so i can be prepared..

its only me thinking of that pager and its me thinking of the exposure he needs to get... i thought exposure worked because it shamed him...he hasn't gotten full exposure correspondence because i took the pager. i sent exposure email late night Wednesday and many responded immediately but a few key players didn't until yesterday morning...when I had the pager...

i have succeed in downloading keylogger to his computer

Is there anyone you can contact who can help you install the keylogger? I have no clue how to do that stuff, or I'd help.

cat i succeededin downloading..the last step is flxispy on the currently locked pager which i will not mention until i have a plan in place and it's very quiet here...

Maybe before discussing the pager with him, you could tell him the plan to recover your M would require him to be transparent with you, not to hide anything and to be open and honest.

If he agrees with this, then I would bring up the pager, asking him to give you the password since he has agreed to hide anything anymore.

If he won't give you the password, I wouldn't even bother giving him the pager back..

he just came home to bring me a coffee and i was on VP with the OW's 'best friend' talking about how he made a oopsy email inended for me that he sent to OW. i explained ot him that he didnt betray his best friend by telling me that OW is a shameful and why did she do that. she is denying EA--full tilt and is using my confrontation with her that day as means that said 'we worked it out' gonna call him back since WH went to food store and walmart now.. brbr

susie Q im worried abut the time frame of opeing-addressing pager issue and making sure it gets installed with flexispy--its almost like i want to go to sprint and tell them to unloack it i will read everything, download flexispy then read the messages with him together....

but, techincally i need him to give me the password..so if he agrees and we read messages together and then he must give it back to me until at least we talk to dr harley, i would then have it and succeed in downloading flexispy by that time...

i think we'd need to change his pager email address, since he will have to work and use the pager for work...until he finds another job...

Monitor all communication accounts secretly for a long long time.
Contact your service provider to get the pager unlocked. Because you are the owner of account they should help you with any monitoring issues I would believe.

Husband must see that any attempts on his part to act like a sneak will result in you treating him like one. Hence you must be allowed to watch him untill he earns trust.

You are standing up for yourself now and you have many ppl on your side supporting you here. The technical help for installing keyloggers would have to come from other ppl here but I am sure there will be help soon.

Sort--I successfully installed keylogger on his computer. done.

my KEY point here: getting him to tell me the password and reading the messages together would be better than me going to sprint to get the ager unlocked--RIGHT??

Soort--you said "you must be allowed to watch him until he earns trust' meaning thats the message to WH but i'm stalling spyware to watch him in secret... if he betrays me while I watch him secret... I'm gonna hold that for now...

but I know it must be secret because if he knows I have spyware he will use another means...i realize spyware on computer and pager allows him a 'chance to prove himself' and its really that its no way of hiding anything (comfort for me--security blanket) but if I bust him on something... that is what I struggle with... i'm trying to wrap my brain around this...

I have appointment with Dr Harley on Monday. I made another appointment with a local signing counselor that WH knows for many years due to that counselor's position at our work.

I feel we should session with Dr Harley and then we should session with Dr New England and then we as a couple make a decision who we should continue to see for marriage counseling.

The way I see it, i am getting what I need from the MB and its my style, books reading but his style is not books and reading and the relationship and comfort WH feels with having Dr New England means he would probably be more committed to Dr New England's counseling than he would to using Dr Harley's approach. I can continue my own Dr Harley sessions probably and stay in this MB community, and we could see Dr New England for couples counseling.

feedback???

Makes sense.

Hmmm, a signing counselor? My D19 took Sign Language for 3 years in high school, and she's in college to become a counselor. Never thought of that... She always wanted to find a way to incorporate signing into her career.

It is a very much needed professional position our there, but very overrated in state agencies(they cut anything most costly right away). Look into private counseling practice. Unless D19 wants to risk lay-off with every budget dive...

Well, she's actually planning to go into psycho-something or other research, more so than counseling. But I'll be sure and point it out to her.

deaf people at large need more qualified signing professionals and it'd be a very valuable service!

why is it so quiet here? i feel sorta lonely...

The Leopard had a deaf patient and worked very hard to get signed A.A. meetings established. She's still involved in that, I think.

If I could just get her fog-addled mind back to pre-A state...

On our way home from work. Travel time. TTFN

Hey plexie you are on the right track yes.

I would get software on the pager AND see if he will open it up for you too.

Point being that that if you have software you can monitor him and see ifhe is hiding stuff from you. The stuff he lets you see compared to the stuff he deletes and hides.
Don't feel bad if that happens BTW its common and refered to as "In the fog" here.

I am glad to see that you have gotten some rest Plex.

You are heading in the right direction. Remember recovery is not an event but a process. As time moves on you will get a better handle on your life and the emotional stuff will take its place.

is anybody here??

You ok? Have you eaten?

LOL this guy is so cute.

PPl are around Plexie

Its 2 AM gonna get some sleep as I hope you are also Plex. Will catch up some time tommotrow

Hi, Sort. I have slept about 4 hours. I am going to bed now. WH is definetly going thru withdrawal but he is making effort...Its looking like a see-saw...up n down...

*hugs to MB peeps*

I have Grad School 9-5 tmrw and Sunday!!! its the only thing that is gonna keep me busy and sane and doing something for the greater good of myself!!

hello, checked kylogger on WH computer, found 2 sentences, ;my pager is taken;
after i went to bed "don't email me, wait til i email you, WIFE might will check my computer!!!!"

i am tempted to change the password on hotmail but since i installed keylogger i will not do that....

i know i can check keylogger later.

i feel like im dying and myheart is living in my throat.

Plexle asked me to post this for her as she's getting ready for school...

She went into WH's hotmail and didn't find OW's email address there, but she did find an ex-girlfriend's email address... This might be the person WH was emailing to saying not to email him...

She has seen online conversations between WH and this xGF before and didn't see anything there, but it's possible WH may have deleted the 'bad conversations'.

I advised her to keep quietly snooping, but lock her laptop so as to force WH to resort to using the home computer.

Good advice.

Tell her to print out all the exchanges, and give them to you for safekeeping. She'll have proof to confront him if she needs it. And if he refuses to change, she may need them as proof in court.

Has your H committed to counseling?

Does Dr NE know how to save marriages? It doesn't matter which approach your H likes better, what matters is the effectiveness of the approach. Most marriage counselors don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages, much less understand the dynamics of adultery. This is why MB stands out from all the rest. Marriage counselors have an 84% FAILURE RATE and have a higher divorce rate than the general population.

It seems to me that going to counselors just to go to counselors is going to cause you more harm than good if you are trying to work TWO plans that might very well conflict.

still reading and catching up...

Plexie, when you get on, can you describe what exposures have been done so far?

Plexie, I need you to go back and read my posts about exposures that you shot down. It is my opinion that this is hopeless if you don�t expose this affair everywhere. ESPECIALLY at work. He is having his affair at work, and this needs to be exposed in a very official way to the top levels. Having his supervisor �talk to him� will be a waste of time. Nor can your H ever work with the OW AGAIN. That means NOW. It doesn�t matter if someone is watching, he will still be triggered.

I would also add that your workplace has a serious problem with affairs that needs to be addressed at the highest levels. Affairs cause horrendous problems in the workplace and your company needs to do something to control that environment.

I would be asking your husband to quit his job NOW. Can you support him while he finds another job? At the very least, HR should be making darn sure that the OW and your H never work on the same shift in the same building until he is GONE.

It also needs to be exposed to his parents unless his mother is on her death bed. What about his father? I agree your parents don�t need to be notified if you don�t think they will support you, but your childhood and all that have nothing to do with it. I had a much worse childhood than yours but that is irrelevant to my adult life.

Facebook exposures to the friends of the OW and the WS are extremely effective.

Also, I would give your H back his pager and stop fighting over it. What good does it do to take his pager if he going to see the OW at work anyway? Ask him for the password and explain to him that withholding the password clearly indicates that he is hiding his affair and you will proceed on that basis.

But don�t get stuck on fighting over the pager. That is trivial. It just makes you look bad in his eyes and does nothing to solve the problem. Getting the pager won't stop the affair and it is a distraction from killing the affair. Focus instead on getting him out of the workplace and away from the OW.

Im more awake now to you,and your advice, Melody. Thank you.

Now my questions:

my concern is getting flexispy on pager before i give it back since he locked it and i cant get in unless i go to service provider...which is better? him giving password or me breaking in and installing flexispy which i havent found out yet if it will work on all of the blackberry features?? any tech experts here? help?!


Melody one more question: you said "clearly indicates he is hiding the affair and you will proceed on that basis." that means calling police and having him removed? He will not willingly leave....

I see all your points.

My gut says I think its not good to give him yet if i can't install spyware on pager, and know what is REALLY happening.

I would love to hear form you once more on this and the spyware for the pager position of this post.

because I can monitor him using the computer with keylogger, I like that he's forced to use that alone for now...

I was thinking to also ask Dr Harley about the pager on Monday morning.... But i'm very open to digesting analyazing an approach for pager thing with you Melody.

Plexie, just give him the pager. You can just assume the affair is ON because he will see the OW when he goes to work. I mean, you don't have to spy to find out what you already know, right? I would ask him for the password and to unlock it and be transparent, but if he doesnt, I wouldn't quibble over that. That is a distraction from ending the affair.


Oh no. I would not do this at all. You KNOW he is in the affair. He still works with her, right? That is a continuation of the affair.

I would work on exposing the affair and trying to end it that way. Getting his pager will not stop the affair if he goes to work every day and sees his lover. Stop the affair FIRST and then worry about the pager.

One thing, I made it a condition he wouldn't have the pager for a long time--does it make me look 'weak' that I'm giving it back? Do I still install spyware? He hasnt sent NC letter so I guess I am starting to see where you are at Melody... There's not point and definetly some post-exposure commentary on the pager, right?

Help me modify my condition so I don't look weak... Or my condition becomes permanent once nC letter is given and he leaves his job. right?

I totally see your point, he will see her on Monday and hopefully I will have a very good email exposure letter of notification to the director of HR by the time he's on duty. And MASS exposure via FB. I need to tae care of my homework for college class tmrw, and I should probably go to sleep--about 3 hours a day since Dday.... I need to take care of me and my assignments right? Focus on me and set a goal of total exposure by early Monday morning before Dr Harley.

Give him pager back and let that go... and start eating and sleeping and ding for me with calm demeanor.

You got it! Just say I am giving you the pager back, sorry for taking it. I would feel safer if you would give me the password and let me check it, though. Ask him to end his affair by sending the OW a no contact letter and quitting his job.

See what he says.

But don't get into any fight with him or make any threats. Be polite, calm and kind. See if he will do what you ask. [I doubt he will right now or he will give you a load of excuses]

And then on Monday, launch the nuke by exposing to the workplace, [deliver letter] his parents,[phone call] the OWs parents,[facebook or phone call] facebook friends, etc.[emails] Start thinking about the best exposure targets. Perhaps do all of these exposures tomorrow night and then deliver the letters to workplace on Monday.

And go get some sleep, Plexie! No matter what, this will turn out ok, I promise. {{{{{{{{{{{Plexie}}}}}}}}}}]

Ask him if he will send this letter to the OW.

here



[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

p.s. no fighting! And don't attack him, ok!? You will completely throw him off and surprise him if you treat him NICELY.

And every ugly word out of your mouth makes that SKANKHO at work look good. [she is not yelling at him!] And we ain't on her side here!

Melody, she won't expose at work.

Cat I am going to expose at work. I am not confident he will NOT quit until HR knows.

Do I sound insane? I'm fighting mad and ready to kick him out, because I know he's going to resort to bad behavior and keep things from me on that locked pager...
And I have no faith he will quit his job.... I have no faith in him...none...just a busload of love that I feel is dying....

He has things he can sell--his ebay addiction may pay off finally!!! and a little money saved but honestly no i cant support him (my plan was to get roommates immediately upon his departure to pay what I cannot pay. Also, as a person who works vocationally if he leaves his job before 2 weeks notice he WILL ruin his chances of getting another job and finding a good one, especially in this economy and with his deafness. I had a plan about being 'around' during dinner times during those 2 weeks at the school so there would be no chance of them speaking--at work--but now that I am about to give his pager back and nicely ask him to share andddd give me the password, but, he's going to think he's 'won' and refuse to share :o( he says his friends have passwords his friends are married and those friends are not who he talks to when marital conflicts arises...

i sent him to the store in hopes Melody would read this but I am following her advcie--ALL OF IT! NUCEAR EXPSOURE by the time he reports for duty and before Dr Harley gets ahold of him.

Melody as WH was raised in deaf culture--and based on my research in deaf culture in its being blunt with feelings, actions, thoughts etc--no etiquette basically in comparision to hearing culture... its WIDELY beleived that an affair isn't an affair UNLESS its PHYSICAL.

As a result of his 'culture' my marriage may not stand a chance after all... BECAUSE people will think 'talk is nothing, touch is everything'...

Ironically, if he did PA I wouldn't be here today and even though I know EA is worse.

Thanks for listening and letting me vent so I can play nice-nice when WH gets home.

Hugs to all of you MB peeps!!!!!

my paycheck pays our mortgage he pays all the other bills ( small in comparision). supporting him is not an option though because I have credit balance up to my ears... and i need to start 'saving' for a car secretly because the car is in HIS name even though I paid it off...

i checked keylogger and he came home so I had to shut it before understanding full but I saw things like "it not working and I can pay you back as soon as I set up computer at friend house'

something like that...

I think now that that my heart has stopped pounding maybe i'm better off just having WH leave..... so whatever plan he has, it will be messed up and disorient him.

wait, my emotions are driving my boat.... oh man...

plexie, stick to the plan. Maybe he cant quit his job right away but he can agree to look for something else and make arrangements to stay away from the OW until he leaves.


Don't get hung up on the pager, plexie! Getting his pager will not the end the affair, it will just cause fights! You have more important work to do, like work on ending the affair!

Stick to the plan. Your emotions are your enemy. Put them aside.
Stick to the plan. Your emotions are your enemy. Put them aside.
Stick to the plan. Your emotions are your enemy. Put them aside.
Stick to the plan. Your emotions are your enemy. Put them aside.
Stick to the plan. Your emotions are your enemy. Put them aside.

i saw affair number 2's name in the keylogger...thats why I'm freakingout...

BUT...........its widely believed in Plexle's culture that an affair is an affair. Thats all that matters.

what about seeing him make plans to leave cuz it not working?

what about borrowing money for computer? so he can set up at friends' house because he dont have pager...

link me the plan I need to be on? so I can study it

what about seeing EA number 2's name and 'honest it was not like you and me before'

help me steady!!

ok, do you want to tell me what you're talking about?

in that post those are the words I saw in the keylogger^^^^

I need to study the plan (not sure what plan is)... My gut says that means exposure, NC leter, my conditions and SAA book, and be nice and return his pager.

Did i orient myself good?

Plex, are those the exact words you saw on the keylogger?

Here is your plan:

Carrot and the Stick

Yes those are the words to best of my ability to recall, he arrived home and I got rattled. but it got jumbled in my brain I ran to laptop to post what I saw soon as I could---and smiled at WH as he didn't catch me on his computer,smile...havent addressed pager yet, I'm still being nice and smiling and saying thanks.

cool, calm and collected. You are doing great! Just don't bring up the pager. Let him bring it up and see what he says. You will confuse him if you remain cool, calm and in complete control of your emotions.

He won't know what to think.

melody my heart is full of gratitude for you!!!!!!!

God Bless YOU!!!

you are doing just great! {{{{{{{{{{{{Plexle}}}}}}}}}}}}

IF the pager comes up, give it back to him and say you won't endanger him by withholding the pager; that way, you're not being weak, you're being a better person than him.

Melody won't admit it, but she is in reality Superwoman.

Yes, she is that great!

*giggles* you're saawwweeeeeeeet Fred ;o) and, you're right!!!!

calm, cool, collected. Everytime you feel like blasting him just remind yourself that it makes the Skankho look good. Staying calm and respectful and in full control will confuse the hell out of him. Tell him this tonight:

"Joe, I am willing to stay and work on the marriage if you will find a new job, end all contact with the OW, and change your life so this doesn't happen again. That means opening up your life to me, being open with your pager and emails, eliminating all "frienships" with the opposite sex. It is only under those conditions that I would feel safe in this marriage."

Just tell him this, Plexle. He probably won't agree to this tonight, but you will have planted the seeds. Don't fight about this. When he gives you excuses, don't debate, just say 'Im sorry, that won't work for me."

It will take a nuclear exposure to get him to change. And even that might not work, but it is worth a try.

i LOVE cat's idea---its very very very cold here, truck is so olddddddd too!

you are awesome, Fred! Thanks!

Superwoman with high heels toten a pistol - don't mess with a Texan

Gg

I have a stupid question. Can you cuss someone out in sign language??


lol, gg!

Melody you can cuss like a spitfire with American Sign Language, the facial expressions alone are horrendous!!! :o) The passion while swearing is powerful....

I'm a Southern Belle too so oh man, I'm loving Melody more!!! I lived in Waco and no not during that cult freakish time!! hahaha

Melody I need to say this for the record, I don't think exposure is going to work in deaf community but I am going to do it :o)

Gonna do everything I can!

that just gave me a good laugh, ML. YES!!

point in fact I gotta wait for DALAS COWBOYS game to be over cuz WH is a cowboy fanatic...will do what Melody said to say :o)

When you expose, make sure you point out that he is HIDING his communications with other women from you. Ask them if they would be fine with their spouse talking to other women/men and hiding it from them.

I happy to see you are sticking to a plan, Plexle. I have been worried about you. Just remember, if you feel a lovebuster coming on, go busy yourself with something, for me it was kids or laundry, or just go for a ride. You can do this! Hugs

Cat---so true!! I am grateful for your help!! Brr its so chilly here in New England---trying to get comfy and warm for my weary wrecked body with a smile on my face for WH. Gonna light my favorite scented candle!!

Plexle, I am not deaf, but I have been around deaf people a bit, and I am not sure you're correct. In fact, I'd be willing to say I think exposure might be MORE effective among the deaf community than in the hearing one. Why I think this may be the case is two-fold. First, the deaf community is just that: a community. There is a bond among people who share a common trait. I also think that the type of communication among the non-hearing is more intense (maybe not the right word I'm searching for, but I hope it conveys my meaning) simply because it requires the use of the other senses all that much more.

The hearing community relies heavily on the spoken word. When people don't speak, things are ignored or overlooked. But you just described the use of facial expressions, and deaf people are much more attuned to others' facial expressions. I would think it would be harder to hide knowledge of someone's A among the deaf community than it would be in the hearing world.

Am I making sense? Am I way off base?

Exactly!!
First of all for GODS SAKE lol give him back his precious pager but here is what you can do about monitoring it.
Listen plexle, If I understand what you wrote B4, you said the pager account is in your name right?

Ok then, give him his pager, call the service that runs it, (nextel? doesnt matter). Tell them you want to install Flexspy or or any monitoring program on the service DISCRETELY. They can do this it happens all the time. They probably can mirror image all the conversations to your personal Email account for a fee. Its 2010 and there is no more privacy since 911. TRust me it can be done.
If that service is not available you can tell them you want the password. You want this all done descretely and the user is NOT to know about it. If you can't get nextel to monitor the pager and send you the info and you get the password sent to you then you can install amonitoring program that will work,(ask them what one will work), some night while he sleeps. He will be none the wiser.
You do not have to reveal why you want this done to them. They work for you and the pager is in your name. Employers do it all the time. They turn on the GPS function of their employees phones to see if they are really where they say they are..etc..etc..

You have the account in your name and that is an advantage for you. So give the dumb thing back and play it from this angle.

OK...1.Give him the pager
2. Roll out the the Enola Gay and drop the nukes per to the instructions of Commander Mel and bombadier cat.
3. Have a freind be with you when he comes home fuming after this is done. The cat will be out of the bag. You deserve to have someone there to protect you so you wont be afraid.

You are doing well Plexle, You are starting to get you mind wrapped around why you need to do this. Just look at Mels total posts and see how long she has been helping ppl get there WS head removed from there derierres. She can be trusted to take care of YOU.

God Bless

Hee! I'm a bombadier! Whoo Boy!

That is a hoot!


You do know this had a huge impact on the affair in your friend's marriage? Lets say that exposure doesn't END the affair, it will start the collapse because affairs thrive on secrecy. It will be no fun anymore with every one watching. Women HATE other women who cheat with married men, so the OW will be treated as a pariah.

If your H agrees to leave the job, tell him the only way you can settle for this in the meantime is if he goes to his supervisor and gets his position changed so he never sees the OW at work again.

Sort--first of all *imitating superbowl BUDLIGHT commercial* : "I LOVE YOU, MAN!!!"
I will call my provider for the service and monitoring!! YOU ROCK!!!!!!

Umm--for my SAFETY sakes, if give him pager now---if I bombard and expose early morning monday, like I agreed with Melody--because he has pager he will hear about exposure while he with me for dr harley session 10:30ET.... but perhaps I should send all exposures after I leave home for work at 12 noon, he will be home alone and restless as he reports for work at 2:15ET.... he would probably report and stay at work to see oW and then come home to kill me I guess... I don't know if HR will call him Monday...

Plexle, HR didn't get back to me for 1-2 days... then we had to schedule a meeting... then they asked me for evidence, of which I had none. Then maybe 1-2 weeks before they called H in to tell him they were starting an investigation.

So that's why I suggested that you print out that online convo cuz there's clear indicators that it is happening on work time and send it along with the exposure letter. It SHOULD speed up the process!!

Exposure DOES work, Plexle. WH and OW's plan was likely that they would tell everyone that you two were having marriage problems, separated and THEN they started dating.

Once you expose, they will deny anything is going on between them and then they will be under scrutiny...and now you have put a big dent in their future plans. I don't see the deaf culture issue affecting this.

Susie, what do you think about the fact I've seen past EA names in his keylogger??

Yes, you are. Making sense that is. I wouldn't say more intense... I would say it has more meaning, but what's the word for that? More meaningful?

Deaf people are much more observant and perceptive than deaf-impaired people... they pick up instantly that there's something going on though they may not know what it is. Not just facial expressions, but body language, eye contact, gestures, etc etc...

I agree too that I think it's going to make an impact, if Plexle goes NUCLEAR. As it is right now, a lot of people may have heard rumors already due to the small exposure she did, but they're all thinking it's just another silly rumor, and her H was able to gaslight the one or two friends she contacted.

Because in the deaf community is a) small and b) gossip spreads like wildfire, I actually think exposure could be more effective...regardless of whether people put pressure on the waywards to stop the A, etc.

I think he is like oh, so many men who think that as long as their wife has a ring and a home, they should back off and let him have his fun. Because, after all, men (sorry, BIG generalization here) have TWO brains to think with, and many use the less intelligent one to guide them.

Hmm, he could be looking for someone who will support him? Maybe he thinks old OW will do that? OR he could be looking to get that "zing" or "high" from an old OW that he was getting from new OW that he isn't getting right now...

My H found a 2nd OW while he was foggy and not getting the zing from his OW while he was away on a trip... When he was unfogged, he told me he has no idea why he pursued OW2, that he didn't find her attractive at all and hardly knew her...

but this shouldn't divert you from your plan. OK? hang in there.

Are you afraid of physical violence? Have someone be with you if this is true plexle k?

You seem to have the timing down right just don't be alone when he blows his top especiially if there is a chance of him losing control.

We can talk about his entitlement issues later if need be. I think you know that you deserve a good marriage right? You do deserve it because you are working for it. Remember that k?

This is tough stuff your going thru I say YOU ROCK!!!

Stay as cool,calm and collective as "Bond, Jane Bond". Meditate, think positive thoughts and visualize peace.

Susie--I think you're right--OW is dating someone and she brought him here this weekend to a tournament. WH's second EA--WH has never really owned that it was an EA and because EA2 is now married I'm sure he's getting validation from her...
I don't get the money borrowing or setting up computer at friends house though--see-see what the keylogger holds in the morning, I guess.

p.s. When I arrived home from class WH was on Videophone with his sister and we 3 had long talk about the fact that sister deleted my email from mother's pager. WH in the very end told sister to please explain 'superficial' marriage problems so she hears it from us and not gossipers *whew* can fill in mom later on details, etc.



gonna give him pager now according to Melody's guidleines and Sort and Cat (looking seeking now with a service rep (deaf) for slyware for pager...

I want to expose the other ladies too--all of them quietly secretly talking to him... feedback?

here I go with the talk... brb

Sounds like you will need some printed proof Plex, I would use a sledgehammer to kill the fly in this case. When you send out exposure info to HR make sure to attach proof along with the inferance that you don't wnat drama, you want integrity and accountability in your workplace.
I am sure that the people in the deaf community know that they must keep the drama down to a minumum and that is what scares them and at the same time paralizes them from dealing with these kind of issues.

Lets ask the question then. Do the deaf get to fight for the truth and a life that has all the benifets the hearing have? Like loving and devoted relationships? Does being deaf make it OK to have inapropiate and decietful relationships that are based on lies? If someone said that deaf ppl are "just like that" it would be such an insult IMO.

I would never sell a deaf person short of having the right to fight for what a hearing person can have. Sometimes its the right to fight and all they get is the fight. In life the struggle gives life meaning.

This isn't about what the deaf community values here in relationships its about your right to have a great marriage or none at all. This man sleeps with you and is closer to your heart than any other human. You have a right to fight thats all. HR at your work should be able to understand that and if they don't then thats their problem. Don't let them "calm you down" or whatever they might call it when it comes to your marriage.

Well I hope I didn't sound high-minded or arrogant. I just want to see you get what you need from them. They might not think your marriage is that important but we here do.

calm determined talk to WH per Melody and all you other fabulous peeps!!! Cat! *meow* Sort *karate chop* SusieQ (bow) and last but she aint least!! FAINNE!!! *hug*

I assure you all: I was BOND,JAMES BOND ( I remma Sean Connery's voice *squeal* I LOVED IT!) It was a perfect memory spark for me (love you MB peeps!!!) and helped me while he rambled on his 'excuses etc and i tuned out to "bond, james bond" in sean's voice... Oh my stars!

I said to him:::::"I'm feeling like need to review with you about being safe and what that means, and I've decided its very cold out and I want to give you your pager in case of emergency. Now I will feel more safe if you were to give me password (he did) and to read all of the emails together (we did) I fwd'ed 2 long dialogues to my pager with him watching too (proof for work--gotta have it and I wanna read it later). I said that he will have to change his life and avoid all contact with women friends (except sister,mother,sis in law and woman supervisor--all woman peers nothing until further notice), especially not OW, and that he will need to leave the job but could look into transfer for the interim, write the NC letter."

he explained to me he went today to a friends' house to get us a storm door donation, its a male friend from work and he admitted he couldn't reveal his feelings (that male was included initial exposure) Then later he went to another friend's house*know them many years myself at least 8yrs* (woman have husband--husband in shower) and he admitted whats going on to woman and cried, husband came out and then he told husband but ONLY because wife brought it up first and he wasn't as forthcoming ( I am sure he downplayed a lot)(didn't think to include them in the first exposure for some reason, mostly that we dont really see them much...)

when I asked what he was thinking/feeling when he cried he said (and because I was calm) he told me its because he's hurting about what he did to me and he's confused and wrestling with my original conditions--especially the job--this woman friend and her husband--are in Voc rehab field and BOTH literally screamed--"deaf cant find jobs right now!!!!!! don't make the mistake!!!" I tried to emphasize calmly he has seniority and could do weekend shift, he countered with that job won't make him happy and blah blah blah

I saw his crap and excuses and I tuned out I think because Melody woke me up today... :o)

I told him I said 'you will need to share everything with me, leave chats opens and emails, tell me about your day and emotions...(nodding yes) for me to feel safe'

"what did you do today that felt good?(went to see a friend) bad??( he has physical manifestations like horrible headache)"

I calmly explained the pain I feel from grieving the affair is akin to the time I slipped on ice and broke my tailbone. (more visuals I use, the better). He seemed to be listening. Probably scheming...

There was a moment where I saw a chance and I said "don't you feel relief now that I have read the whole truth? (these were emails of them plotting and all kinds of skanky-isms but I remained calm and read every sentence and at this moment i said 'now I see for myself everything you said, etc.. and the truth is out and you don't have to lie anymore or pretend.." he's very tiredly reluctantly nodding...

WAYWARD

I fwd'ed the proof to 2 peeps: Fainne and SusieQ. (pls post your responses to those emails fainne and Susieq) For safety. I will also fwd to my work email for the exposure at work... I am unable to process the dialogue--its just further proof and planning of the friday meeting 'to be on same page' my exposure email and taking his pager foiled a lot... SusieQ was right *fistbump* I only wanted the meeting cuz of the NC letter and I wanted to WATCH her read it... oh well.

You can see from the time stamp on my last post to now we spent calmly talking... I contacted my pager service representative and hope to hear tmrw-- until then he's WAYWARD and umm, in a fog and nothing he says is true. Period.

He seems to think he can convince Dr harley... *evil cackling* says often "wait for counseling" like thats HIS ace. oh boy *rubbing hands*

He went into my laptop last night--checked ebay and hotmail and its POSSIBLE he has seen the webpages I have been looking at but, because I'm under fake name I am not sure he would be devious enough to figure out MB and especially not the forums!!!!... I suspect he used hotmail to contact OW or EA2(second one due to seeing name in keylogger.) Recall he said in keylogger "wait for me to email you ariel might will check my computer for emails'

WAYWARD!!!! sing it with me folks, WAYWAR, can I get a WAYWARD.... come on now everybody---WAYWARD!

I'm weary if he's figured out keylogger is on computer--although I have put password lock on my laptop he can no longer get in because 'i'm calm and determined' and I changed it plus I know he's going into stealth mode and gonna stab the holy hell out of our marriage again IN HIS PAGER--until I can get spyware on it, I am resigned to this and c'est la vie. Next keylogger I will email myself the contents of today's session *grin*

A very dorky song popped in my head last night (remma I went deaf at 15) Its the Cover Girls "we can';t go wronggggg" Good Lord I am a hopeless romantic, I switched to Van Halen's "how will I know if its love?" Umm, I am karaoke fanatic--I don't care what people think--I do it on Thursday night bowling (after bowling) and I LOVE IT! *makes rock n roll hand signs*

I love 70's and 80"s music mostly *grin*

Hugs to all of you fabulous people with pain in your life, I feel ya, I'm conquering mine and *singing* " I'M MOVIN ON UUUUUUUUUUP to the EAST SIDEEEEE, I finally got a peice of the PIEEEEEEEE, fish dont fry in the kitchennnnn *ew* and beans don't cook on the GRILL! I'm MOVIN ON UPPPPPPP!!!"

I used music for coping growing up and I'm a lyrics fanatic!! :o)

Good Morning and now I must do my homework.
*bows*

((((Sort))))) you rock! love your post!

Rofl

Im a lyric fan too. It never made any sense to me why not.

What do you think of the Who?. There is a joke about never playing the Who at a party because hey make you think to much lol.

What other groups do you like? I am from the 70s,80s and at 52 the music kinda sucked in the 90s IMO.I am probably just gettin old in that hehe

AH well its all good.

I like were your mind and heart are going plex and I am soglad to see you coolheaded and fighting back. You sound like you have a handle on it.
About the pager and the monitoring, Is it videophone? My son works for AT&T and he can find out some stuff for me. Hes in sales and sells to corporate all the time.
He will know wat services are available with his competion also so.. If the agency you use cant help you maybe I can find someone who can.

http://utilities.flexispy.com/checkphones.jsp?p=4

says it monitors SMS and is top-o-the-line for Flexispy. Again I am not an expert but I know it can be done. I am not sure on the technology his "pager?' uses. you said blackberry at some point and were you talking about texting? If so you should be able do this NP.

Yur just so awesome gurlfren!!

I'm trying to wrap my head around this WH never really admitted he had EA with OW2... but he has "ilove(OW2's name)" as his password (or maybe screenname?) ???

Back to point... the email between WH and OW3...

Yea, they were clearly scheming to gaslight you at Friday's meeting...
they made plans to meet so they could be on the same page and make you realize you made a mistake

And she's clearly manipulating him...
"who's supporting you? If you don't mind me asking"
"it sounds like a messed up marriage, she needs help"
"you didn't do anything wrong, sounds like she wants to destroy our friendship"

he's buying completely into it...
he's answering all her questions without thinking twice about it and this:
"(plexle) forgot that you didn't do anything wrong"

he CANNOT see himself losing what he has with her... how can it be any clearer that this IS an EA???
"I don't want us to change the way we are right now at work"
"I now afraid that we lose our friendship and change the way it is"
"I pray pray (note he said this twice) that we will never lose our friendship"
"Pls don't hate or change the way we are"

It doesn't get any more classic than that... Oh and don't worry... you should be the one doing the and the hand rubbing because, boy, won't WH be floored when SH (Steve Harley) tells him what he's doing is having an affair.

Makes me think of the times when my WH would challenge me on something and said, "I'm going to talk to SH about this!" thinking that SH would validate him... I merely nodded my head saying, "You can do that." while going in the back of my mind...

The email he sent to someone (which I am guessing is the xGF??) about being separated for a week and borrowing money for a computer to set up at a friend's house... wayward lies, tactics... he's just gathering sympathy and paving a backup plan for himself... IMO.

That part where he's talking to someone "I don't think I did it like you and I"... clearly indicates it's a former OW...

I wouldn't worry about any of this... but of course save it as proof of his schemes and lies...

due to english difficulties in the deaf community and WH's weird spelling habits I can't get into pager for now to install flexispy.

Plexie, you did a GREAT JOB!! See, you CAN control your emotions if you want! You rock!

Ok, in view of the fact that things have calmed down and he seems halfway willing, I am going to suggest another tack. I think he might be responding WELL to your new calm, respectful self and I don't want to mess that up.

It would be better for everybody if your H willingly left his job and, in the meantime, asks for a transfer to another shift. It would be better for the marriage if someone other than yourself, ie: STEVE THE HAMMER, persuaded him to do this. And since you are paying Steve, you might as well get your money's worth! Let him be the bad guy!

So, I am going to suggest holding off on the workplace exposure until Steve talks to him. Maybe Steve can get him to go to HR himself and get moved to another shift while he looks for another job.

What is the deal about his mother? I don't understand why a plan was concocted to lie to her..

Also, can you look on the OW's facebook and find her parents? How many friends does she have?

Omg, OW looks just exactly like a skankho. I can't believe her FB page is open to the public. She's got 289 friends and she's still friends with you, plexle.

She has 6 people with the same last name as her maiden name...

Plex, keep her as your friend and send out an email to as many ppl on her facebook as you can. Start with the ones who look the most promising, such as parents, etc. Use the note I posted back on pg 2-3.

Plex,

Just read your thread. You are doing a great job. Remember to remain calm and in control. Follow Mel's lead and you have the best chance at success.

I did have an issue with this though:


You need to lead by example. You are asking him to give you access to everything and be an open book. You need to do the same! If you aren't willing to walk your own talk then WH will probably be relcutant to do so as well.

Interested to hear your thought on this Mel.

Mindshare

Ok so flexspy will work as soon as you can install it. awesome.

Judging by his launuage in the emails Fainne read it sounds like he needs confidance building. He sounded pretty desparate in his communication with OW
Yur doin awesome. Do you have the bombs in the bomb bay and the co-ordinates set for tommorow or will you have to push back "Nuke day" ?

Will check back after dinner

Mindshare, she cannot do that with a cheater. She should open up her life, but she can't do it in a way that reveals her snooping on him. It will harm her chances of protecting herself and saving her marriage if she does that. He could easily detect her snooping techniques and put a keylogger on her computer if he has access to it. He could find Marriage Builders and find her emails to and from those of us who are helping her offline.

I sent Dr Harley an email recently asking him about this very issue. [openess about snooping, etc] Here is what he said:

What you are saying about keeping snooping techniques a secret makes total sense to me. However, it seems hypocritical to tell the WS that they have to be transparent, open and honest while at the same time the BS is password protecting their computer. I know the means and methods of snooping need to be protected but I also think that the BS cannot be openly blatant about hiding secrets from the WS either. Password protecting a computer is overtly telling the WS that the BS doesn't have to abide by the same rules. I don't have any simple solutions just throwing these thoughts out there for debate.

Mindshare

I disagree. ROH is for recovery, they are not in recovery yet. Her marriage is still under assault. Her WS needs to be open and honest so she can verify he is not harming her. When you are being fired upon on the field of battle, you don't put down your protective gear lest you get shot. There is nothing hypocritical about protecting herself while under fire.

Let me explain this another way. She is asking for complete transparency from her spouse as a means to ensure he is not having an affair. NOT because they are in recovery. Now, when they are actually in recovery and she is not under fire, then ROH would make sense. But for her to be transparent NOW would only impede her ability to protect herself from a terrorist.

The transparency needs to be one-sided at this point because her spouse cannot be trusted to not harm her. He is harming her so she has to protect herself. That is not hypocritical at all.

Her WH is the one who dropped the ball. She is the one who has the authority to protect the marriage at this point.
Its lonely at the top. Untill he can earn the trust he needs to concede this battle for ROH. He needs to see that he is wrong first and hes not there yet.

A two-year old knows he is wrong for taking cookies when Mom says not to. How many two year olds with a demonstrated habit of taking cookies would you trust with the cookie jar key?

The ROH is like the key. We want to let the child be responsible but he needs to earn that when he is old enough. The child will rant and rave about how unfair it is but Moms will stay strong and discipline the kid untill he trusts authority and fears consequence.
Some day when he grows up he will thank Mom.

In this case ROH would be giving WH the key to the gun cabinet that he could use to destroy the marriage. Would he? Seems so and Plex has the right to protect herself from the lies that are hurting her. HER.

Hes gonna have to trust her now with the keys so to speak

The mother has issues Melody, always calling one of her 4 children on the videophone and backstabbing one of her children (for example WH's sister lives in her home and doesn't pay rent and WH's sis has 4 children and a husband. the couple pays bills but no rent, she likes to call and complain that sis doesn't pay rent and then swear us to secrecy. sis knows that mother does this with all of her children...) Eveyrthing is usually malicious of the mother to say about the child not present except WH's oldest bro--he's fighting livercancer for about 7 years now....that one is an 'angel suffering'... and she always end every call with saying "shh shh dont say anything ok? please??" and it goes on and on and on...

SERIOUS trust issues and WH would be upset mostly because she backstabs for no reason already and he says hes ashamed by this trait of his mother...WH seems to get that mom will find out and wants sis to handle it, if she were upset but would prefer she know as less as possible because of her tendency to backstab in general... WH really doesnt communicat emuch with mother as a result of this trait of hers and typically he will wait 2 or 3 days to reply to mother's emails... I suspect out of spite... I know you said childhood has got nothing to do with us as adults but this a seriously wacky situation, especially considering his upbringing... In a dorm under paid staff watch 5 days a week... with a mom like that, who wouldn't be screwy, right? Ah, I digress...

I saw a comment about leading by example...and not locking anything, truth is he isn't interested in my pager because he says often i broke a promise to him and lied when I checked his pager (calm and saying nothing in return) he could check it but he KNOWS nothing in there... I am locking the computer to hide my coping and protective gear (Thanks Melody) and because of the pain I have a right to do that.

After Dr Harley I will have to leave home and do the FB exposures. I have a copy of the one for OW and friends, what about mutual friends of WH and mine? what should that letter read? I can't seem to find it and it will save me time to copy and paste... I will have to go to the DaysInn and mooch their wifi which is a really lousy signal and I won't have much time... Please help? I can't send FB exposure until I have left the house and can't access FB at work...
FB doesn't allow to save messages so I can't prepare them ahead of time--I tried and it spontaneously combusted!!! Thank God it didn't send--too risky I have to be away from him..

I asked him for password again under the guise that I'm trying to understand im as a thought occurred to me: he has male friends but always usesemail not Instant Messaging--most are girls on that list...Anyway he bought it, he kissing butt, has cooked dinner for past 2 nights and bought my fav pizza tonight the password.....

its" uarebusted " I couldn't beleive the irony and he doesn't see it so I secretly giggle over that private joke...

I asked him about his day, logged his mileage, asked him if he contacted OW and he said 'no I don't want to' and he went on to say he considered paging a friend he visited yesterday for the door but he's embarrased I took his pager and doesn't want friend to know he has it back. Interesting the one girl that loves her hubby that he talks to at work and talks to her about me--always positively, he talked to her about dallas cowboys, appropriately and claimed his balackberry had error or something...

I was also upset I wouldn't be able to track that pager activity today but I held up by saying doesn't matter, damage is done, one day of emails isn't going to make it worse...this is rock bottom...

so now, I hope to be able to stay awake and install flexispy, but he slept late so I'll probably go bed and get up earlier than usual to install the spyware on the pager. The service provider representative was really no help, and I want gps tracking, so I'm going to end up paying about $250 for that...

WH and I have been chatting and calm and smiling and hes making alot of trips from his room to my area for any little reason to talk, his collection, cards he won or sold.

MELODY---please look at this---WH verbally agreed to buy a car via private seller today.... I feigned concern about the IRS and the issues hes having afraid they will take it, it will be the third car in his name, I said youshould transfer VWcar to my name at same time, or put new car in my name, simple...he wasn't cool with new car in my name so he agreed to put VW in mine, (I paid for it and canprove it but, I need him to willingly sign it over in case our marriage dies and I can't do CPR to save it, I legally paid for that car......) and WH said since he will be going to dmv anyway, it will be easier to do it all at once--transfer VW to my name and to submit buyer title to his name for new car. I can't afford the mortgage and a new car payment, even if it was used, in addition to all the bills in this house...

In my calm determined james Bond state I say to you:

Melody if I expose on FB tmrw you know he's going to be so so so so so so sos osososososoososos MAD he will not transfer the car to my name... I need to dialogue with you about delaying the process until he submits paperwork tuesday morning to dmv.

Staying calm and determined,


I was sickly this moring with the 4 hours of sleep

Thats ok, he will get over getting angry. Exposing on facebook is likely to help end the affair. With the exposure of close friends and family, I would modify the exposure email a little and ask them to give their advice to your H.

I still think you should expose to the mother. Even though they don't have the best of relationships, it will help tremendously if he is put in a position to have to explain his affair to his mother. I suspect he is concerned he will be embarassed which is ok. The fear of being backstabbed is irrelevant. His main fear is being JUDGED.

Is your H going to be speaking to Steve Harley tomorrow too?

mm

Yes he completed the necessary documents to counsel with Steve harley tmrw. I don't know who will go first.

I do intend to speak with mother myself-I have a plan *grin* To call when no one can intercept it (WH sis and hubby not home--has to be at a certain time mid-day and I can do that at work.

But, for all practical intents and purposes, I want the paperwork to put the car in my name dropped off at dept motor vehicles before I send the exposure email. WH s going early Tuesday morning... he's thrilled about his new car and wants to be able to drive it--DeptMotorVehicles here closed on Mondays ARGH!!

marshmallow?

haha *lights a campfire* lets roast some marshmellows!! heeheehee

i lactually ooked up mm on the acronym list!! hhahah

I can't help it, I have to share!

typically I don't see WH after 6pm on Sundays because hes too busy posting cards to sell on ebay... and I am here on computer investigating spyware and he keeps coming--literally for each card he posts or sold (tonight sales finalize) and hes asking me "is this orange or copper?" "LOOK,I bought this for 50 cents and sold for $15 dollars.." its hard to stifle my giggles but it helps me smile to him and remain calm...what he hell did he do today thats got him shaking in his boots?

I'm totally James Bond Calm determined.

I already set up another google account for eblaster--gonna buy and download that, and flexispy for pager. Owie to my credit card...but it's gonna help :o)

God Bless Melody Lane and her patience-Lord knows I don't have any at all, and yet she's helped me 'get my southern belle' back in control and on the horse.

Giddy-up!

You miseed something about the mother mel. She has real issues. Also WH doesn't respect or care about what she feels.

The other thing Mel is Plex was askin about waiting till she got a car in her name b4 she exposed. Would mean 1 day. I think she can wait for a short amount of time for this cuz she is under financial duress.


As far as exposur when teh time comes Plex. The more the better. Even if the mother started to explode and it was outrageous it would just be part of the fallout of the affair. Still WH fault and he should be to blame for any BullCr7p. Exposure needs to be total carpet bombing with extreme prejadice. Do it all at once so the message of truth is clear

I vote for 1 or 2 more days B4 the exposure so you can survive without his paycheck if ya gotta boot him or he runs like a banny rooster on steroids.

I agree. She seems ok for now; another day won't matter, if it means getting the title turned over to her.

I love this: from flexispy:

Blackberry devices have many complex configurations, such as being connected to BES servers or may have restricted access to the Internet. To give you 100% peace of mind, we offer you a money back guarantee if we cannot get your product to work within 5 days. FlexiSPY will work on most Blackberry devices but you have a100% risk free way of checking that FlexiSPY will work for you.
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complete assurance!

Eblaster installed. Nothing found on keylogger while I went to college.

flexispy installed on blackberry.

Dr Harley at 10:30.

I'm staying home sick today so I can rest at home alone while WH goes to work.

A day dedicated to me :o)

Awesome!

Good job on getting flexispy and eblaster installed! Now, you can relax a little, maybe?

Plexle, did you see what I wrote about his mother? I think that would be a much more impactful exposure than you think mainly because your H is terrified that she will find out. He has already gone to great lengths to make sure she doesn't find out, which tells me that he is worried about her finding out. The state of the relationship won't matter, what matters is that he is concerned about it, which means it will be an effective exposure.

So Melody, it would be fine if she waits one more day to do exposure? She needs WH to change the car's title into her name tomorrow morning when he goes to DMV.

Yep, I got that!

WH is with Dr Harley now--brief background questions tog. I'm in another room talking to my fav peeps (YOU).

I'm feeling good, rested, showered, I fixed my hair and put perfume on, told WH I'm not going to work. I calm (he found lots o reasons to come to ME and talk before our session--not important reasons but important inclination change i behavior, if you ask me...)

Finally, I must admit I'm picturing life if he leaves, I will be ok, it's not the end of the world, but, I gotta try my best and that makes me feel a little nervous-anxious-excited.

My alarm was ringing while I had nightmare: WH had already struck up another EA wit a girl that looked barely 18y.o. and I was panicing to gte him help before he gets arrested for statutory rape, etc. Found out she was 18...alarm goes off I hit snooze and try to calm my heart--WH taps me "wake up" I turned and I said with tears calmly and quietly "I had nightmare about you that you had an EA with very young girl and I was calling our friend (former cop) for help to try to wake you up." He looks guility away and we both drifted off to sleep til alarm went off again.

The name is Plexle, Nice & Calm

I just wanted to say I've been following your thread - and I think you are doing wonderfully.

I have been really busy, but I'm following along too, Plexle. I love your writing style *smiles*

Your OW's emails gave me some insight into an OW's mind...
"Oh, Plexle is crazy, I would NEVER mess with a married man!"
....while at the same time telling your H how effed up his M is and how he is her knight in shining armor and how special their friendship is.

Puke...She knows exactly what she is doing...

You are doing great. Hang in there. hugs

I thought I was the only person who did that!

I used to tell my H and D that, for a birthday present, I wanted them to go away for the weekend so I could just be alone.

AWesome you got the spytools in place.
Bad dreams suck. sorry to hear that happened.

As far as exposure you seem ready to do it so thats all lined up.
Kinda cute and little boyish that WH keeps coming in to talk to you about evry detail. Kinda like how that saying goes.
"The difference between the men and the boys is the price of their toys"
God I hope that isn't true lol, No guys, and I mean men, I allways hated that inferance too and I'm not seriuos.

But their is one thing I would like to bring out about what I observe here from afar away in forum-land.
Its been said that a mother is a boys first girlfreind. He learns about how to treat women and what to expect from his relationship with his mother.

WH hides himself from his Mom and resents her. I am assuming that the mother is suffering with some form of paranoid delusions and I mean "clinical diagnosis", is that right?

WH is having these secret relationships that seem to be ones ehere he needs constant reassurance from his OW. Like he is really insecure at heart. Do you agree with that?

Going on those assumtions here is what I have to say and its as allways just an opinion.

Collecting cards and Ebay is a great hobby but a poor trade-off for a human relationship. If he did not have the benifet of a stable mother along with his loss of hearing well, that is quite a struggle for an obviously emotional and sensitive individual.
Many women say if you want to see how you will be treated in marriage look at how he treats his mother.
Same goes for men. They say the same about women.
These statements and generalitys of course are based on habitual behavior. People can change bad habits into good ones but it ussually doesn't happen without somekind-of kick in the pants, so to speak.
We can only pray that WH realizes you are willing to build something greater in your marriage than Ebay and that he will rise up to the challange. It will of course be his choice. You will be the initiator of change for him because you are refusing to stay in the relationship as it is.

If the mother is clinically emotionally damaged or mentally disabled then I don't see an advantage in exposing to her. It would just be cruel. I would protect the impaired from any of that drama-trauma.

If the mother is just being a child by choice and is basiccally spoiled by WHs whole family, screw um, expose to Mom too.

The wrecking-ball must be able to completely destroy the emotional stronghold his behavior has on his mind. Tear the bandage off this infected mess and give truth and the guidance of the Harleys to really heal his heart.

Total and complete nuclear exposure might still be needed shortly in the future. DO NOT give up all your intel REGAURDLESS of what he says today after the sessions with Harley. I know it wil be hard not to crumble and share everything if you see progress but please just leave the details of monitoring and exposure in the closet for now

Ok no more bad dreams now K?
Praying for your recovery

sorting, there is nothing here that leads me to believe his is mother so insane she can't handle an exposure. Being immature does not = mentally ill. I get real frustrated when people try to scare newcomers out of standard, garden variety exposures for no reason. Exposures are not harmful to people; exposure is therapeutic. It is the most powerful weapon in her arsenal against the affair. While their relationship may not be perfect, as his mother, it is clear he does care about what she thinks.

A nuclear exposure is EXACTLY what is subscribed by Dr Harley. Steve Harley may ask her to hold off, though, so he has an opportunity to SELL the WS first. But there is no other legitimate reason to wait on exposure. Exposure needs to be done EARLY before the affair becomes too entrenched.

Exposure

I wanna thank all of you for your supprt here... You all are helpful in your own ways and have litte bits to contribute and it all comes together into a 'platform' if you will that holds me, allows me to speak, re-group, and last but not least---->hope....

We ended the session with Dc Harley at 1pm--so 10:30-1pm we had a brief session together, my husband had his session, it ran long, then mine, ran longer, then he called us together...

I love the Doc. he picked up on something seriously profound thats been rubbing me about my husband all these years, my husband doesn't have the ability to be intimately empathetic. He has a serious character flaw. He truly beleives he's done nothing wrong and...

If his belief system doesn't change, his behavior never will. Doc H : "Any behavior change without a belief system shift is just 'temporary'."

Exampled: Doc H used the overweight man going to a doc to ask for help with his back pain.

Doc explained how addressing the back pain would be pointless without exercise and eating right(2 courses of action, yes hard ones, but ACTION)--if overweight man refuses to do both, then there's no point in addressing the back pain... I believe my husband understood the message and I feel so releived that Doc evaluated him and was able to enunciate what I've REALLY been struggling with all these years... Until my husband understands from WITHIN that his behaviors are 'wrong' to do when married, then he will never understand why I'm in pain, and will continue to cause me pain as a result.. even IF he feels guilty about it he doesn't know why.

Sadly, I ALWAYS knew there was something fundamentally, profoundly wrong at his CORE and I've always felt my husband prioritizes his own needs above all else.... a selfish aberrant tendency. I call him amazingly independent and always felt he would be just fine if I wasn't around. that includes inclinations towards self-gratification as I've explained his predilection for ebay and regretfully, towards masturbation too...

He doesn't have 'team' mentality in our marriage (ironic since he's involved in every sport!!!!!!!)

Exposure, as Doc H said is primarily for me to get support that I need so in its stead, I should make sure I have 1 or 2 good friends for support right now and that means:

Exposure is on hold--all of it.

It will not change his beleifs system and will most likely drive him away.

We are told that we have a goal to 'work together as a [u]team[u] doing enjoyable things':

"For your marriage to be mutually enjoyable"

~feel connected

~feel reliability

~feel cared for

~feel respected

~feel safe

"To eventually FEEL that you've fallen in love again and want to stay in love and WANT to spend the rest of your lives together"

Further Doc H will be a 'coach' for us...guiding us on the path. Perfect word, seeing as how I used to be a job coach and I FULLY understand that it means "less, (involvement) is more"


Homework: We both must read up on Basic Concepts (he told my husband he HAS to read, he needs his 'education' in order to give it his best shot and to use the website), submit the last page of our first EmoNeeds survey (we did that like a month ago I think and the top 5 for BOTH of us were almost EXACTLY the same!!!...), Now, we must write another EmoNeeds survey, write the Lovebusters survey and submit to Doc, not seeing each others answers, not sharing what is said in sessions.

Everything kept seperate, including counseling.

Doc asked me if I thought my husband WANTED to save the marriage and I paused for a long stony silence with deep thought, I finally said "Doc I had to ask myself the question again and here's my answer 'I think he wants the marriage to work out but I also know he has no idea how much work he has to do on himself to make it work, so I say to you Doc, the answer is probably yes AND no.... And thats being honest."

I explained about all the efforts my husband is making with 'small talk' and my calm demeanor was just the right thing at just the right time. ((((((MELODY)))))

We will be meeting Doc NewEngland friday and then go from there...


I'm posting now and will add more later as I htin of it-for those anxious to hear how it went.

Wow! Thank goodness he was able to zone in on this character trait in your H! What does your H think of Steve?

And Plexie, why are you going to this other counselor? Will he be helping you implement the plan laid out by Steve?

Doc also said exposure is most effective when children are involved because they have a bond, with the children forever,.... and it works best in those cases.

We are going to the other counselor because I need to show my husband that I'm willing to go wherever he feels MOST comfortable. Because HE brought up counseling and I found someone he actually knows, has known for 20+ yrs, as a result he is more willing. I told him I like Doc Harley and asked him to try doc Harley and he agreed so now I have to hold my end of the bargain.

Also, for this to work will require tremendous tremendous commitment on HIS part and I need to see which counselor he wants to work with... Thats the only way. I can get my Doc Harley fix forever, but if he doesn't want Doc Harley then he wont commit...and it will all be a SERIOUS waste of time and money.

We will have to pick one counselor, Dr new England doesn't do what Doc Harley does she uses : trust, commnication, and commitment in her approaches with marriage counseling.

Now, I have a plan that if he chooses Dr New England to give it a deadline... Luckily theres some advantage to my husband having seen website, done EmoNeeds survey and lovebusters survery...it helps that he was so relaxed and at ease too and its here in our home on videophone.. I feel he will choose Doc Harley, but if he doesn't a deadline on Dr New England, which would be how long would you guys advise? I say like 3 sessions....

ok, does Dr New England know how to save marriages? What are her qualifications? Does she understand the dynamics of adultery? Does she use tried and FAILED traditional techniques that are based on feelings rather than behavior?

The issue here is not how "comfortable" anyone feels, because feeling comfortable will not save your marriage, but rather if the MC knows how to save a marriage. Most marriage counselors don't have the SLIGHTEST IDEA how to save a marriage and cause more harm than good. Traditional marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate, plex.

You are SO RIGHT Melody, I'd rather gamble on Doc Harley 100%.

Aside from spouting the statistics, what would be good way to convince him to try Doc Harley and drop Doc New England?

I'm just going to start pointing all all the pro's in going with Doc Harley...since we chat so much now its incredible... and ask him to commit to Doc Harley for me. Or for us... A big thing is Doc harley has everything online and Dr New England will not... because this can hold hands with his ebay fixation he may be naturally more inclined to lean towards Doc Harley....

I was thinking you could tell him that you feel very comfortable with Harley because he's qualified to do MC, and Dr NE isn't really as her speciality is kids... two, that you (I don't know if this would be the truth or not) don't feel comfortable with or don't like Dr NE's signing skills... three, you feel it's more private with Harley and would feel awkward if you run into Dr NE at work...

How do you guys communicate with Steve Harley??

Melody we have a technological device. It is a videocamera in essence, it films us signing live to an interpreter in an undisclosed location. The basically sign everything Dc Harley says and speaks everything that we sign. Fainne, it happened today that we had a VERY qualified American Sign Language interpreter, and I want to see if we can look into requesting that one again...

Dr New England is now at St Joe's College Teaching and doing private practice on the side.

I am concerned that by being firm with my husband to stick with Doc Harley, I will lose the connection we're having...

I want to just continue to point out we're in the safety of our ownhome and can go to other rooms in our own house as opposed to office where we arent comfortable and have to drive.

I got an update from Sprint... I can have emails forwarded and be BCC'ed on all emails my husband's device sends--for free.

Also I can pay $5 a month for GPS locator which could have 20 min delay but, still... I just forked out $249.00 I don't have... for the same thing...

My jaw's still on the floor... I've tried to pick it up to no avail...

Still thinking about what Harley said about your WH, Plexle... it makes so much sense... though it completely changes your plan.


Not to T/J, but I figured you'd enjoy hearing this. During my routine checkups on keylogger, I came across some facebook conversations DD had the day before yesterday. Omg. I was appalled. She swore so much.

So after some thinking, I decided I'd modify some of what I learned here on MB to fit my situation...

Yesterday, while we were in the car, I casually asked her if she had been doing any swearing. She lifted an eyebrow and looked at me inquiringly, "like how? where?"

"Oh, anytime, anywhere. Do you do that?"

She thought for a moment. "Yea, a few times when I talk with friends I use this or that word... and this one other time this guy bumped into me so hard he hurt me so I swore at him!... and that's all."

"You sure that's all?"

She shrugged. "Yeah."

I let it go but I did some more thinking...

At dinner today I again brought it up. "Do you remember what I asked you yesterday?"

"Yes, the swearing thing."

I decided to hone in. I said, "Are you sure that's all the swearing you did? We already know everything." She thought some more and told us about a couple of other times she had used swear words.

After telling her we had been watching her facebook conversations, I repeated with emphasis, "We already know everything."

After protesting a bit, she struggled to remember more of what she might have said and told us a bit more.

I then told her she needed to stop swearing on facebook and that we would continue to watch. That if we caught her doing it again, that she would be suspended from using facebook.

She protested, "But that's not fair! What about my privacy?"

I said, "When you show us we can trust you, we will give you some privacy."

She sulked for a bit, but seemed resigned to it. What I'd give to know what was going through my H's mind at that moment... I felt a bit of a deja vu there. He was quiet and watching our conversation.

Anyway, end T/J

AWww. Well it was money spent for a good reason anyways. Education.
But hey if your interested I've got this property to sell in florida..

Glad you got the Man Dr Harley in on this.

Why not sell DR. New england on Dr. Harley. I think that if DR.NE will take 20 mins to read about Dr Harley she will be hooked on the method and success. DR. NE can also give him a phone call or create an account on the forums.
This really shouldn't be hard to do and if your H cares about your emotions and what you are concerned about he would welcome it I would think.
I know DR H already identified his lack of emotional empathy, still its a goal.

My concern was with WH possible ability to spin a different tale to DR. NE. and of course DR H has more insight on these things.
WH could see DR NE if he feels comfortable and run DR H by her? Then WH can start the hard work of change.

You sound better evry time I read Plex Grats

Yes and I tottally agree with that Mel. Can you tell us Plex, is she mentally ill?. I know thta exposure is on the back burner but just so we know in case you have to roll the bomber out of the hanger.

Mel I agree that he cares what his Mom thinks. What I was wondering was if Mom is really sick that all it would be was cruel.

Sort,
I already told Dr New England about Doc Harley. She is impressed but she's not tech-savvy so I'm not certain how much she saw. I gave her a nutshell version of what's going on, in fairness to her also. She took the liberty of explaining her approach : trust, commitment, communication... Husband and I had a discussion with me prompting him to consider trying Doc Harley first for a few weeks and he disagreed, wants to meet both now and then decide. So be it.

He's in agreement its a great doc and he feels comfy and likes being here at home but, I can clearly see he wants me to keep my end of the bargain. Maybe its just a reaction to the "demands" I had for him. Husband told Doc H that I DEMANDED 5 things and i told Doc H I simply laid out the CONDITIONS I need for my safety. But BECAUSE HUSBAND has character issues, he doesn't see it that way. I suspect he is kinda retaliating, its the only leverage he has ...if you really stop and think about it, and I'm just not prepared to destroy where we're at now for that little thing....

It's not worth it. ;o) However, I will be dropping hints, and nicely trying to get him to see we're better off with Doc H, I need to do so lightly because if I don't he's going to think there nothing HE can ever do or choose in fixing OUR marriage...

Nothing , nothing is worth fighting with him about right now... I've to suck it up... I've come this far and now I'm just going to stay strong...Which will be significantly easier now that all we focus on is ENJOYING each other... Does that include making love? Hmm, I don't know if I can do that...

Plex, the issue is that you are not likely to recover your marriage unless you counsel with Steve Harley. I don't know what trust, committment and communication MEAN in terms of saving a marriage. That doesn't really make sense and is not a PLAN. They are just buzzwords.

First off, you should NOT TRUST. It was too much trust that got you in this mess in the first place. It is not lack of trust that is the problem, but a lack of boundaries.

Secondly, "committment" to what? To being married? To WHAT? A committment to just being married is an invitation to abuse, but a "committment" to make the other person happy will repair the worst marriages.

You already know how to "communicate." What you don't know how to do is to fall in love. <----that is the goal of Marriage Builders.

Does she have an actual PLAN on how she intends to save your marriage?

Sort,

I'm FROM Florida, unless you've got a waterside lot in KeyWest... heheheh

I've noted your concern too, Sort, about him spinning another tale but I got to tell you... Doc Harley sees the MAN I'm with, his CORE... Dr New England has one chance to impress me... Nothing is gonna get by ME here, so, don't forget that part. I will be ACTIVELY pursuing her response to his story... *grin*

To address my husband's mother, I will say it again a by product of deaf culture upbringing...: SHELTERED LIFE, lack of exposure and problem solving skills (her parents were hearing and shipped her off to residential school) to the real world, behavioral problems but not enough to medicate, she's physically run down as a result of her insufficient coping skills...

For example she discovered early on I'm not catholic and was aghast! I told her I didn't believe in Catholicism(no offense anyone), praying to a priest for example(whats wrong with direct conversations with God?!). She looked at me as if I were insane, she 'admonished' me (you can't be my grandchildren's godmother if you're not Catholic, I said 'so be it" and oh by the way there 9 of those!!)and mother said no marriage should occur between me and her son unless I converted, (we eloped to Jamaica by the way--with a justice of the peace and just 3 FRIENDS witnessing) the day we told her we eloped she ran to husband's oldest brother's bathroom and remained there for probably 3 hours if I recall correctly--sobbing...

Completely unconsolable--utterly and completely.

So it is what it is, and yes he respected her much when I first met him and started being with him but when he moved to be with me within 3 months of meeting me, I suspect his perspective of his mother began to change (she felt he was insane for moving 6 or 7 states south to be with me). His mother also gave him months of hell for going to Europe with 7 friends for 6 weeks prior to meeting me...

It is what it is...

It just a glimpse for ya'll...

ML,

I didn't see anything from her except those 3 words (yes they are buzzwords) and 'you both will be doing homework because the brunt of the work will rest on YOUR shoulders, I can't be around forever'

Please know I am WITH you and fully agree with you--stay with Doc H, HELP ME convince HIM to go with Doc Harley and drop our Friday appointment....without demanding, I'm to refrain from that...*grin*

C'mon Southern Belle--what will work??

Plexle, if Dr. NE is who I think it is, we used her also, we thought with her background, she would understand our family dynamic.

Anyway, I did like her, she understodd about ENs etc. I told her about MB and she agreed with everything I told her. One thing about her I did NOT like....

When I wanted to talk to her about ExtraOrdinary Precautions, my H kept telling her it wasn't necesary, he was very happy in the M now (due to my Plan A) and he didn't ever want to be in this spot again (in an A). She backed him up and kinda wanted me to have faith in that(him saying he wouldn't ever have another A).

This really upset me. I wanted him to have firm boundaries and wanted him to understand he had a weakness and he had to always be aware of that when chatting with women.

When we counseled with the Harleys, Jennifer talked to him A LOT about EPs and even encouraged him to come home from work and talk to me about how he interacted with women, what conversation took place, etc. She encouraged me to positively reinforce that and then for us to discuss whether we thought any boundaries were being crossed.

So anyway, I just wanted you to have an idea of the difference between standard counseling and the Harleys.

Sounds like she could handle a full exposure if it comes down to it. She can comprehend God and consequences.

How about some oceanfront property in Arizona?

Awesome Plex I am not worried about ya as much anymore. I will be checkin in tho so yur not alone.

@laughing@ Oceanfront property in Arizona!! *tap dancing 'shave and a haircut'*


--I'm in !!

@sighing@ at SusieQ oh geesh... Ok so my gut knew already...

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I need help convincing him its HIS idea to drop Dr NewEngland.

*singing The Beatles'* "One thing I can tell you is you got to be free, come togetherrrrrrrrrrr, right nowwww, over meeeee"

Can you tell him we used both and we felt the plan the Harleys had helped us fall back in love? He can come here and talk to us about it if he wanted, I think he knows my H.

Maybe he's resistant to confirming to Doc H becuz Fainne's WH woke up to Doc Harley and he IS different, I mean he said it before but know we KNOW he is different...

But correct me if I'm wrong, your WH SusieQ is sooooo similiar, I guess it would depend on how much my husband knows of your situation and how they know each other...

<<<<<I need help convincing him its HIS idea to drop Dr NewEngland.>>>>>>>

TA DAAAA
Drumroll pls

*drumrollllllllllllllllll*

now heeeeeeereeeeeeee's Sortingggggggggggggggg!

Rofl.. hey whats the link for the emoticons guys? Im gonna shortcut it somehow

Sort--

you have to use 'switch to full reply screen' and it's the smiley face with the goldish background--click it top lefthand corner--next to the world and envelope

Hi Everyone,

I took a page from SusieQ's book and I used her WH as example, but I might have fibbed a bit, I just cant recall... I told him that Susie and her WH went to Dr New England about SusieQ's WH's tendency to 'just talk' to a woman co-worker, same as him, and it didn't work so, it turned out that SusieQ and her WH went to Doc Harley and now they're back in love again.

and, he said YES to stay with Doc Harley!!!!!!


(by the way, I proposed to my husband, did ya'll know that??) *giggles*

*singing Van Halen's ^when its love?^ " how will I know if its love? I can't tell you but it'll last forever, how does it feel when its love? Its just something you feel together, hey hey hey!"

Oh dear flexispy seems to have a funk...I can't read what emails is being sent to the pager, only what my husband is sending to OW....

Here is the first message husband send to "OW"/EA3;

How re u? I'm okay and doing better today cuz I made myself very happy as I bought the car today and it parks at my home now
Just wanna u know that I got what I want.. After counselor this morning, we both talked seperate alone for good 30 mins and after that we sat tog and talked with counselor. After that, she cried and said she not going to demand 5 things she wanted me to.. I have strong feeling that counselor told her that she can't do that cuz that put me in stress and defensive and make it worse.. She cried and said ok, u don't have to write to OW, stay work asd, don't have to wear ring, and let me talk to whoever I want and of course she wud want to read the conversation.. So things are cool down for right now.. Plexle trying to change and hope I ll still fall in love with her.. If I don't then we split in good term,
Yeah, really not stress free 100 percent but feel much better cuz I got the car I want and like it.. It makes me so much happy.. Plexle is now happy to see me happy but not becuz we re getting better.. Plex said she wants old us back and have fun tog and start all over again. I told her I ll see how it going.. I don't want to pressure on that and want to take it day to day we will spilt in good term..


second message:
Yeah, really not stress free 100 percent but feel much better cuz I got the car I want and like it.. It makes me so much happy.. Plexle is now happy to see me happy but not becuz we re getting better.. Plexle said she wants old us back and have fun tog and start all over again. I told her I ll see how it going.. I don't want to pressure on that and want to take it day to day we will spilt in good term..

third message:
Lol that's okay.. So I ll work overnite half till 330.. So hope we can talk more then.. Yeah I'll be at the lodge building

fourth message:
Yeah ur right, she owes u big time so I don't know if she will do it.. Or still pissed off at u for letting this happened to me.. Really it not her business.. It my actions, not your fault and we didn't say anything bad or dirty in that conversation..

I knew he was going to talk to her but I thought I was going to be able to read her emails to him as well... I dont understand because I sent emails to him with pics of his new car and THOSE are in the flexispy log...

Any advice?

Bond, James Bond

He's using a web-based mail account, hotmail to receive messages on the device, only thing I didn't think of so when he GETS a message via hotmail flexispy wont log it. But when he sends, its from the device and it logs.

@ more emails to OW EA3

Thanks and u re too wonderful woman!! U have no idea how so beautiful inside u are!! Ok I ll delate all the conv. now.. Talk more tmw ok!!

Glad u got home safe..
Good nite and have sweet dream..
I want u know that I will never end our friendship.. I will always love you!! PERIOD!! Hugs xoxo

Good Morning, All, of you LOVELY people here

Now, I go to sleep, perchance to dreammmmmmmmmm, We'll fall in love, again.

Mr Sandman, (the one from the song not anyone here), listen, None of that ugly nightmare business

Plexe, this is hard! He is still in touch with OW! How can you home MC will work if he is still emailing her? I am not sure what you plan to do...but from his messages to her he is planning to go thru the motions of the MC and then opt for an amicable split?
blessing

Plexle, what did Steve say to WH about emailing/seeing OW?

Plexle, I hope you don't mind me answering for you...

If I understood you right... basically Steve said to focus on spending time together... not to focus on the fact that WH is still in contact with her...

My guess from reading WH's emails, it sounds like OW is concerned that WH is working on his marriage, so he's somewhat lying to her... saying he's still not happy... just to 'assure' her... even though he may not really realize what he's doing.

It sounds like this relationship with OW is going to progress further to a physical level (hugs, kisses?), and maybe SH will use that as concrete examples to show WH why it's wrong. Just a guess. WH doesn't think anything he's doing is wrong at this point

Unbelievable. Any activity that is hidden from a spouse because its knowledge would hurt is deceit. Deceit is the twin of cheating.

I need ot let ya'll know that steve and I spent a LOT of time on the chracter flaw the absolute inability to understand why I'm upset. But, he did say my conditions for safety are irrelevent because of the fact that myhusband doesn't UNDERSTAND what he's done wring.

5 conditions:

Wear wedding ring
No contact letter with OW
Open everything to me on pager
Get a different job (transfer in the interim)
speak with respect--mad you're mad go smoke

Clearly the fact he keeps saying demands helps me know I would have lost him. I WILL lose him if he doesn't UNDERSTAND/EMpathize with my pain... That only occurs with a belief systems change and a "EURKA! moment of "OMG I messed up SO BAD!!"

I dunno if OW is scared, but she'd better be!!!! I'm a STUBBORN AS H*LL-SOUTHERN BELLE

Hi Plexie,

Correction - you won't lose him. HE will lose you.

TM

Absolutely correct! I have an affirmation posted on my wall right in front of my computer. It was written by one of the many wonderful people here in a post. I wonder if some people know how sometimes their words can be life-changers?

*microphone feedback*

Testing, 1,2,3, Err, I just wanted to say that I stand corrected before my friends here in SAA.

He would lose me.

*bows*

Plexie, when is your next session with Steve? I am very alarmed that your H is still contacting the OW. You can handle about 3 weeks of that before you start to crumble. That is abuse of the worst kind.

I was also wondering if you could email Steve to let him know this is going on and they are planning to meet, maybe forward him the messages? I find it hard to believe that Steve didn't tell your WH that he can't pursue a relationship with OW. Or maybe Steve doesn't realize there is not NC in place?

Maybe something got lost in the translation with the interpreter.

I already did forward everything as I posted to ya'll last night (same time). Including the chat I found--from D-day. (which Susie and Fainne have both read) I asked Doc H for next steps, as I told him we will only see him, I want to know when our next appt should be and offered 2 possibilities, Friday and Monday... So, right now, Doc H has all of the evidence, the d-day chat, the convo from last night, from beginning to end everything H said.

I am waiting to hear back.

You're SO RIGHT Melody I can't maintain being abused. I am reluctant to get anti-depressants because I am on Birth Control pills and afraid I will not be 'myself'... Perhaps I should re-evaluate that decision??? I also asked Doc H about it... ML, Susie, should I get the anti-depressants?

Looking back on the 2 fwd's I sent you Susie, Fainne, I can see more clearly why he doesn't think he is wrong and and she is innocent...

The goal is for him to SEE my perspective and FEEL my pain.

In the interim, Basic Concepts, support from all of you, spiffing myself up, becoming engaging and attractive to talk to, giving him nothing to negate me with OW (sparked the whole relationship because OW first spoke with H about HER marriage issues so he replied in kind).


BIG QUESTION for the day: SHOULD I SUCK IT UP AND APOLOGIZE TO OW? I may not mean it but should probably arrange for H to witness it...and try to be sincere. It will give them less negative ammunition to speak of me as his wife...and our marriage shouldn't have issues... They will run out of 'ammunition' to fling at me. Their relationship would go thru a serious dynamic shift, I will begin to be the person he talks with more and there will be nothing to report to her negatively.

I know I shouldn't apologize too soon or he will suspect I have spied on him somehow. So I was THINKING I should start just dialoguing with him about "how wrong it was to think OW is a bad girl." And pose the question to H "what should I do about that?" And go from there... Maybe he will suggest apologizing, to test me, then I agree to do it, it should IMPRESS HIM that I'm thinking of apologizing or feeling like I did something wrong to her, and in essence, decrease the 'fodder' between them, as people always grow closer when they're negating someone else.

Uh. No. You don't owe OW anything. (Am I missing something?)

For what?

Yay I found the emoticons!!

TY

That�s the kind of pop-psychology babble-thinking that can really screw things up. Follow the plan given you from Harley. Don't start drawing up plays in the sand.




No.

You want OW out of your lives for good as soon as possible.

Yeah I agree . Wait for a response from Dr H and I am really amazed in how callous WH was in letters.

BTW get ahold of Flexispy and see if they can fix the incoming mails thing. If not call sprint and when Sprint comes thru for you get your $ back from Flex. Make sure Sprint comes thru tho first k?

Apologize for the exposure she did last Wednesday night... Plexle and I were discussing this, because this is the one negative thing about Plexle that OW seems to be bringing up constantly with WH, and he keeps agreeing with OW that Plexle was in the wrong because he actually believes that she is and that he and OW have done nothing wrong.

So if Plexle apologized so to speak (though she would not mean it, of course), and OW keeps carping on it, Plexle would look better and OW would look worse in WH's eyes.

We were discussing that Plexle should do a plan A of sorts, so to speak - look attractive, have the house shining, etc. so to draw WH closer to her and further away from OW.

The plan that Harley gave her was to spend time with WH and have fun with WH. Should Plexle just completely forget about apologizing to OW and Plan A? She is still waiting to hear from Harley...

Thanks, Fainne. I wasn't clear with my post about not meaning the apologize, just to lessen the negative talk about me/marriage so they relationship between them would change...

Now that I have a moment of downtime, I'm really starting to wonder about Doc H and Melody.

What do you mean by this?

This strikes me as circular logic. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. In short, I'm reading OW and WH are disagreeing on things that Plexle is and does.

WHY DO YOU CARE WHAT OW AND WH THINK??? OW is sub-human and WH is an alien in H's body. The only thing that is important right now is PLAN A. Be the best "giver" to WH while all the time knocking the sh*t out of the A. That's ALL that matters at this point.

I could not apologize to OW even if my M depended on it.

Do you all understand that this is not your standard affair?

We all KNOW THIS IS AN AFFAIR.

But her H DOES NOT THINK IT IS.

So you cannot really go by the book on this...

Hello?

I want their feedback and their help on this so badly... If, I made a mistake, I want to know what I've done... Or why they aren't responding...

Inside, myself I know that both have lives and are very busy but I suddenly feel very despondent...

Which is EXACTLY what waywards do. My WxH didn't consider his affair an affair either.

It's called justification and denial.

Following the script - just like all the other waywards.

They ALL think they are special and different and not a cheater. They are WRONG.

Huh? This is by any measure a "standard" affair, any way you slice it.

No wayward thinks they are having an affair. They couch it in all kinds of fuzzy language and twisted logic. My WW actually told me that I gave her permission to "date" OM! I had to remind her (uselessly, I add) that what I had said was that my attorney said I could not do what she was doing. There is a big difference there, don't you think?

In the small amount of human brain that might remain within a wayward, there is a little voice that's telling them it's wrong. But they can't own up to it, so they lie, justify, rewrite history, and manipulate facts any way they can to make themselves feel good about what they're doing.

WH is wayward, and is saying and doing all the typical wayward things, that I agree.

But Steve Harley has actually discovered that WH has a character flaw, and has told Plexle to not do exposure because it would do no good.

So WH does not feel guilty because he feels he has no reason to feel guilty. He does not think he has crossed over a line.

If WH was a normal wayward, Harley wouldn't give Plexle this advice, don't you think?

This is true Gals.

The only thing holding off total exposure in my opinion is Dr Harleys presence and Plexle waiting for a car.

IMO WH has one chance to get it together before the bombs fly and that chance is with Dr. H.

I wouldn't apoligize to OW you will be lowering yourself to be manipulative and Steve hasn't said to do anything like that yet.

As far as plan A stuff do it. It's how you would like to live right?

I don't like it that he is acting like you are the bad guy with all his little girlfriends and wonder how stable he is but that doesn't mean you should have to take it. Wait for Dr. H on this.

This suggests WH has a personality disorder. If WH cannot discern right from wrong, has no conscience or is incapable of feeling empathy or understanding the hurt that he can/is causing, then the question arises: Should Plexle stay with him? Personality disorders are extremely difficult to treat, and most disordered people don't believe they have a problem and thus do not want to be treated.

Doc H told me that without a belief systems change, the behavior will not change. It's a genuine inability to have intimate empathy. That's why we've been told to enjoy each other again as a TEAM.

I suspect I'm in the wrong thread....

Like I said above Dr. Harley is his only hope. Then Plex should do whatever she needs to for herself.

Finally caught up with your thread. I think you are exactly on track. Whether he contacts OW or not is completely out of your control. Great that you forwarded the emails to Doc H, but if he finds out you have them, he will probably go another route contacting her...like your friend's computers. BTW, think about contacting those friends he has a computer with, he has probably told them a whole pack of lies.

I agree, keep up the carrot part of Plan A which what Doc H has you doing. You may even want to put those emails away and not read them...no need, you know what is going on. Just work on being a team.

I think there will come a time he will be convinced he will be a better teammate, or you will cut him from the team. But that will come later. Right now, it's time to start working as a team. They can complain about you all they want, but there will come a time when you both are really bonding that OW will cross the line in her complaining and he will back you up...then she (and he) will know, whose team he is on...

I understand the belief system thing. Maybe what I am missing is the details about what Dr. Harley says you guys can have together. Maybe I am to slow to understand it so I will trust that you know plex.

We all have belief systems. Athiests too. So What belief system problem causes him to reach out to a bunch of different women for obvious emotional support?
Possibly he has emotional areas that he can't handle and so the Belief system hasn't matured?

So the Team thing was like when we work at McDonalds with someone right? Like when we play sports then? Is Dr H talkin about fairness? Thats a start anyways.

Hope Im not sounding rude Plex

She isn't doing so good now. I'll be meeting with her soon.

I just wanted to thank you all for your responses and support. I think maybe she'll need to go to Plan B soon.

Any further feedback/support would be appreciated!

Plan B is almost always required, as Plan A is usually not enough to end the A and reconcile the M. Plan A is designed to build the foundation for Plan B.

Plan B is both a protective measure for the BS, since they have been suffering unimaginable abuse by being a complete giver in Plan A, and is designed to make the WS realize the absence of the EN met by the BS are not being met by the OP.

Plan B is also designed to prepare the BS for life without the WS. The hope is that the combination of plans will serve to end the A and begin the recovery process. But if it does not, it helps the BS heal and adjust to life with the WS.

I am sure you see also that because change is enevitable <sp> that whether WH complies to what BS asks or not Plan B is part of a Plan to achieve a place of emotional security beyond what was viewed as nessesary before. Its not a time where we patiently wait for life to go back to what was comfortable but a place to reflect on what we need all by ourselves first. Then what we want in our relationships now.
Its all part of growth that we should be able to do without a separation or an affair but thats where the way out is paved with the Bcrap of denial and lies that we blame on the spouse.
Plan B is also a place that we can protect ourselves from all that crap and build our self image back to a healthy place.

Tahts where the forum can help because as we understand to a degree what you are going through, Most of the vets here understand a lot of what happens to ppl at these times. They understand the enemy that attacks the individual and the marriage and know its tactics. They are in the trenchs with you.


Hey Plex we are gonna be here so hang in there.

WH just sent the last email to oW: 42 messages since 5pm

'Good night and hope u have good sleep tonite.. Love u hugs xoxo'

Lost,
Plexle

OW reply: "good nite! hugs love u!"

OK so you have all the convos from them now. Did you get the "pager" service straightened out yet?

It will get better Plex, hang in there

Pleasant dreams

WHAT THE HELL FOR?@!!#!#!@#!#

Plan A does NOT mean ACCEPTING the affair.

Just because the two affair partners refuse to acknowledge they are in an affair doesn't mean there ISN'T one.

If it wasn't an affair, her H would be SHARING his texts to OW with Plexie.

Plan A means being wonderful - but ALSO FIGHTING the affair.

Plexie's H has had NO consequences ALL THIS TIME. It's time he starts to understand his fallout.

BullChit. He can LEARN any consequence he is handed.

He can NOT think it is till the cows come home. But Plexie LEAVING the marriage because of what SHE perceives as an affair is all the proof he needs.

This is true gals,
She can stay and baby him or stand up for herself and let him make his own decision. If he chooses to go and keep getting babied by the other women in his life then at least when he thinks of Plexle he will allways know she respected him for who he could be.

Dr H saw his personality disorder and I am sure it will take time but WH should be given the chance for something better in his life.

Expect more Plex.

Wheres Plex? Are things getting better? Rooting for ya Plex!!!

not getting better--regretting installation of spyware, don't know who my husband is anymore and very disgusted as tonight he said "i really want to hug you".... tmrw 7am-8am eastern sessions with DocH.

I'm disillusioned and ready for him to be gone.

This feeling is normal Plex. You reached out and found support and it made you hopeful,(as it should), then saw some progress but a lot of past emotions are in play here that just don't go away as fast as we want them to.

You are aquainted with the idea of WH being willing to comply with therapy but being unwilling to change right? Whether it is because he has such emotional damage/baggage or is just stubborn it doesn't matter. What matters is what you need for a healthy bonding in marriage. Maybe the definition of marriage is different to him than it is for you or even others.

If you don't stand up and ask for what you want from your marriage relationship you will not only suffer needlessly but will be setting yourself up for your own affair. In the suffering of ENs not being met is where many women unexpectedly find or seek connection to other men. They are in pain and they fall.

In defense of many ppl betrayed by a WS who did not communicate their unhappiness their must be a realistic and fair demand that is not met. For instance, leaving a spouse because they wanted sex and attention from other ppl is not reasonable. another would be running away from the mundane details of life is not one either. The point is that people need to be grounded in reality and be able to handle it first before they can be responsible enough to handle a healthy relationship with someone else.
This is what MB is all about. The reality check of someone being exposed to reality to the point of it hurting the fantasy is the first step. Then the WH and the BS have to make decisions based on what it takes to have a relationship. These rules that we have to realize are eternal truths, respect, honesty, care for the spouse, and an expectation of positive outcome work hand in hand with forgivness, commpassion, grace, and a willingness to be pliable to change.

We all see the person we love thru rose-colored glasses and we "fall" in love with who they can be. We don't want to give up on them when they fall short or act out in a way that we can't stand because they hurt us in some way. There need to be limits on how much we put up with or they can take us down a path that will destroy us and/or our love for them. "Boundaries" so to speak. Because we can sacrifice our own reasonable happiness for someone to the point where we break down. It happens all the time when ppl think that this person they married can love them unconditionally without help from outside influences. Marriage is not the end of the search but the continuation of learning to love beyond the original romance.

In MB we learn how to communicate correctly and give 50/50 with each other and we need trust in order for us to feel safe. There will be problems with every marriage it is part of the deal. We all have strengths and weaknesses and we need to be able to trust each other with our heart. If we can't then it will be a lonely existance with a stranger filled with fear of sharing ourselves with them. Isn't it better to have a freind then? Aren't we better off alone then?

The first thing you need to do is realize that there is allways hope. Most of what we suffer is what we allow. Having faith in the truth that Love is an action based on a decision we make to live without fear and expect proper treatment from others. We set the boundaries and are so many times fooled into thinking we don't deserve better or that we need to be God for others and that robs us.

I don't know why you are upset with the spyware, It is a tool that can be used for good or bad, just like a rifle. What you will be using spyware for is to help you restore and/or repair/build your marriage.
If you reason it like this, Marriage is a union that God created so that two ppl could be drawn together in his name. God expects us to go to him for our expectaions. Then after we are square with him about life and secure in ourselves he ordains marriage to another. God never asks us to live in constant suffering with a mate who will or cannot be honest or fair with us. He expects us to trust Him and honor the institution of marriage and therefore stand up for it. If we do the he will by natuaral law give us peace. Its a shame that we put the cart before the horse and expect that someone can fill Gods shoes with our expectations that are just unrealistic when we depend on others to fill our inner needs of security. We cannot help others be happy,(ephasis on help, not make), unless we ourselves are happy.
Yes we can define marriage as a business deal and a way to make each other responsible for children, finances, and many details that describe married life but these are the responsibilities that draw us to seek something higher for help. When we lose the ability to possess our own security outside of money, position, and the temporal posesions of the world we settle our differances in the court of public opinion or maybe in the courts of law.

The details that we work on in MB with LBs and ENs are a nessesary part of reaching higher. When we come to a place of expectation from God in his insttution designed by him for us we will be able to treasure the individual that we are married to. Then we can live in the Policy of Radical honesty and enthusiastic agreement with a trust and commitment rivaled by no other relationship we have on this earth. That is the most romantic love I think anyone can have for another. A life shared with trials and tribulation that do not weaken the union but make it stronger. All because we choose to live in reality and are not to proud to seek help when we need it.

I hope this helps. Its only my opinion but I know that there is truth in what I say. Please forgive me if the delivery is off in some way and I have more hope in Dr Harleys counsel than anyone else I have seen out here. I respect your H enough and trust that he will change if he really wants to.

Drastic change in our lives can be like a part of us dies. To me it has to be for a reason that can be positive if we let it be.
Two quotes that have affected me in positive ways.

"The door of opportunity swings on the hinges of adversity" ---IDK author

John 12:24 (King James Version)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit
This to me says we are all connected and that strongholds of the mind as well as the body go thru cycles. We can use our understanding to help each other in those challanges we all face as we grow.

Hope this helps Jane Bond...

Session with DocH, result: husband should approach me to discuss OW. I will need to relay its painful that he has any kind of contact with her.

He is supposed to bring up the subject to me--I'm to respond its painful and would need him to have no contact.

If he says: "i cannot do that; stop contact" then I am to respond that it is painful and wait... If he insists he cannot stop contact then I respond with the consequence of our separation--plan B because "i'm in pain and I need to protect myself from my husband, my husband isn't protecting me from pain'

If he says : "ok, I will not have contact with her" and then while I'm in school he does, in fact contact her... I am to come home and ask him if he had contact with her.. If he says no, then I will tell him 'this is causing me pain and I need to protect myself my husband, you will need to pack your things now and leave my home."

I read in his fantasy-logue with OW that he didn't transfer the title on one of the vehicles like he said...and he told OW he'd be selling it for $$.

As a result, to protect myself,my job, college class, I contacted my father and concocted a plan to get a car for me, so I can move forward clean and clear with separation.

I guess alot is riding on this next discussion... I predict he will tell me he will have no contact and then do it anyway. The separation is the 'action consequence' for him. Hopefully he would wake up.... before its too late...

If not...he won't be in my home, my safe place... and he'll be out wondering around or mooching someone's couch for his petty and horrible EA.

A wall will surely rise within my heart while I implement planB--and it'll be a long time, if not forever before I'd be willing to even just, sit with him...

FYI, We had a nice convo yesterday afternoon, where we were "lamenting the loss of my best friend" to each other... something sparked in me that said, yeah I do still love him...

But I will not tolerate this pain for that love... As shocking as this is... I developed physical tremors, the same ones I had enduring step-father's sexual abuse, well I mean when I knew he was coming for me, when I knew my mom was asleep.. and he was coming for me in the dark...

I actually said this to my husband, this pain you give me now, is the same as that pain, my step-father gave me, you wait til no one is looking and you hurt me, over and over and over, and now I shake with fear....

I need sleep and at some point to do homework for class...

I'll probably be back here after the 'talk' but I can't be sure...

If anyone is reading this and you haven't read my entire story, please, do not comment, especially not what you've read on other peoples pages or learned in your books..... Doc H has EMPHASIZED repeatedly that 'typical' approaches WILL NOT work on my husband. Doc H has emphasized repeatedly to get all direction from him. Doc H has said his guidelines and believe me I've asked about all the things: plan b with or without exposure, etc and he is telling me to trust him right now. He is 'customizing' a plan for us, and I want that upheld here...

So please understand while I recognize that this is an 'open' forum, please only post if you're willing to think/dialogue about how/why/what Doc H's approach designed just for us, or how much you want to support me during this time...

please don't insert book quotes and other things Doc H has said about other EA's.

I have been 'stabbed' repeatedly by each response my husband has read and sent to this oW on his pager... I'm down, I'm out, and I'm clinging to Doc H's word/guidance. Help reinforce that.

Time for sleep...

This sounds so right. I have read other instances where the plan has been tweaked a bit for each individual case.

Might I encourage you, although it is VERY tempting, to not read the content of the emails WH and OW share? Knowing they are in contact is enough right now...and especially if/when you move to Plan B, do not look at their content. By reading their emails it depletes your LB$ which is dangerously low right now.

Unfortunately by the time a WS gets to the forum they have lived with the A for quite a while (often unbeknownst to them) and their LB$ has been declining for some time.

It is time to protect yourself. May I say again...keep the emails in a safe place, copy them, put them on a disk, put them away, save them to a separate folder so you can see IF there is contact or not, but do not read them.

And the shaking you are describing is symptomatic of PTSD. Living through an A is EXTREMELY stressful. WS don't realize that fully (or they realize and bury it down so deep they don't acknowledge it). I like Doc H's advice to remind him how painful this is for you. WS lie to themselves that everything is OK as long as THEY are happy...

And come here to vent.

Think about keeping a journal, a record of what you are going through, and picture yourself sharing this with your FWH after he comes out of the fog...

Nite Plex sweet dreams

Sort,

When you said:You will have to let us know what the details are for the plan Plex


All I know is my husband is supposed to initiate a convo about OW(he prefers husband initiate) and make his choice about removing OW from our marriage.

If he betrays me --says that he won't contact her and then he does contact her, then I implement separation-immediately, then I reconvene with DocH about the next steps.

Thats all I have...

That sounds really good plex.

What I was talking about was supporting you in details of the plans you and Dr. H work out as they unfold.

I like what is happening now. sounds really good and I am behind you 1000%.

Hi,

With a bit of prompting (ok, ok, really it was a lot of prompting throughout the dialogue because he gets overwhelmed in the face of pressure, once prompted he spoke freely...but oftentimes, he stalled appearing deep in the pressure of the situation....), we had this long talk after he cooked dinner and DocH's approach has really worked. After I asked if DocH told him to speak with me, he said yes and tried to recall correctly how DocH told him to go about it...he struggled and we conversed as I was guided earlier, eventually he stated he didn't want me to have any more pain and its hard but he's going to stop contact to remove my pain from this marriage so we can focus on re-building.

I don't know if I believe him... for now, I guess in all honesty, I really don't believe him.. time will tell, and trust, if it's going to be re-built will begin here and now, only if he really means what he said..

I struggled with him on syntax, he didn't want to use the word 'promise' said that breaking that would be even more painful ( a few promises on other things, he has not come thru--like in the 2 yrs since we bought this house, he has promised to keep his collection in one room of the house, he still hasn't lived up to that promise yet...)

I got REALLY uncomfortable one point: its because he wanted me to define HOW LONG 'stopping contact' really meant, he said it provocatively and that was hard for me not to respond to but I did remain calm.. he said "I KNOW you want me to stop contact forever" I breathed in DEEEEP and I said "I can't think of forever,my heart is pounding, I'm shaking... I'm struggling to get thru the hour...the day.. the week..thinking of forever right now is overwhelming, I just want the pain to stop right now and the PTSD symptoms to cease... guess you have to speak with DocH more about it..."

He wasn't a happy camper after verbalizing the agreement out loud to stop contact,( I asked him if DocH called right now what would he say that we have agreed on, he quipped that he wished for a compromise, and I told him there was none as 'reducing contact' would still cause pain) so, after this he kinda sullenly trudged off to smoke a cancer stick (sorry smokers, 2 yrs nicotine free) but his anger doesn't last long, in usual cases, he hates dwelling on problems...

Later, I watched his favorite movie with him after and had engaging dialogue throughout- real, not strained.

One day at time...

Note: I honed on the usage of the PAGER as I've never felt uncomfortable with how he speaks to any woman in public or on duty outloud at work. I also said he could converse with the [i]married[/i] woman on his contact list but if any single women contacted him, he should probably just tell them he is busy and immediately let me know or show me the convo. I also reiterated that perhaps emails not instant message should be his choice of communication so he can stop and think about his behavior... (I have other reasons but two birds, one stone) I decided to just fixate on 'no contact' when discussing the OW as I really couldn't think of anything to say if she should contact him and, as I've read, they're supposed to get in touch to meet on Sunday.

I asked him about Wednesday session (has to have one about a NC letter with DocH, at the very least, or continue to discuss no contact), or its for me and discussing PlanB, should he get in touch with her Sunday while I'm in class. He was very annoyed. *laughs* " Another appt??? Already!?" Boy, he doesn't get he needs all the help he can get... He was also annoyed we had had an early morning appointment AND twice THIS week!!?

*laughs* Men, geesh!!...well, I mean WAYWARD men, geesh!! *smile*

It sounds like you are following the plan Dr H has laid out Plex.

I know its a hard time for you now.

Well, we had date night. He brought me to an oldie but goodie place we used to frequent as young lovers... It was a nice dinner, somehow it comes up about the car and he tells me he forgot to transfer the title... Again the funny body language and facial expressions... I just flat out told him my gut said "something funny with this..."

He was like "well, I'll go again and transfer it as soon as I can". I am not holding my breath. I just made it clear : You said you'd do something and now you tell me 4 days later that you didn't.. How are we supposed to build trust on that... I'm looking at you wondering who you are..."

We chilled and got home and petted his dog, talked a bit and then I wanted to go to bed but I wanted to talk first... He became distracted by something on tv so I promptly and quietly left.

He came after me hugged me and said he was sorry something distracted him on tv, to which I said "it still hurts"....

Another talk while I lay on the bed and the remorse is starting to show, I cannot really be sure... But he did participate and he did emphatically state he is here to work on the marriage- so I told him "you know so far, I'm still here because of love, but you have t keep your word to stop contact, because if I get pissed off...." and he said "yeah i know it takes a long time for you to become un-pissed..."

"make sure you're doing what you want, really really want." He said he wants our marriage. I said "remember when you met me? remember when you stood before our 3 closest friends and God and said you'd love me til death do us part?--this commitment to stop contact is just as important... (nodding) I said "its getting really hard for me hear that you're in the marriage because you KNOW you married a good woman and yet... you have hurt me with three other women... how am I supposed to believe that you really think I'm good woman?.. (nodding and says: I know, I shouldn't hurt you..." I reiterated the horrible morals his younger brother has now as a result of what my husband has... he insists he will never be like his brother... I insisted if he doesn't change now this small part of him , he will become that horrible... I believe he's GENUINELY terrified of becoming that horrible... deep inside...

Somehow he puts his head on my shoulder and we're just caressing, and then... We had a mutually enjoyable experience in our marriage. I actually am very surprised that I did it, but it did feel good and I do still have those feelings for him after all.. (I'm very stringent about sexual activity in cases whereby I may be hurt: always thinking about 'tomorrow', but this just felt right...) It really did... It removed tension too...

I pray that he's remorseful and won't risk losing me, but if he contacts her, I have an intermediary in place and I'm ready to come home after-school and initiate planB.

Hugs to you all :o)
Plexle

Hi,

My husband is packing his things now. I have implemented PlanB. He full tilt admitted contact as if like a dare---daring me to do something... He has until 7:15 to finish packing and leave, and then I'm calling our intermediary over.

I will be giving him the car key too. There will be no coming back either as I took the house key off of his key ring. he doesn't realize that yet.

Oh Hun, I am sorry that you have to join this horrible Plan B club. It really is a sucky feeling but it can be empowering at times too.

The vets will definitely be here to support you.

((HUGS))

Oh Plexle, I am sorry. Hang in there.

{{{Plexle}}}}

Plexie, I am so sorry. Once you get him out, I would send him a plan B letter designating an intermediary. Do you have an IM in mind? Do you want help with the letter?

I have intermediary all set (last night I predicted this). i'm not syaing anything else to him until my session with Doch wednesday morning.

maybe consider writing a Plan B letter draft to email to Steve prior to your meeting, so you can have it ready to go...just a thought...

he's paging OW now, not even 5mins gone from driving slowly away...

thanks susieQ

I can't even mention the stuff he said standing at the door, refusing to take the car key... ILY and take care and I was like..."i have to protect myself from you, my husband'....

they're together...right now...

I am sorry Plexle. You should be very proud of yourself though, sticking to your word. I wish I would have done the same thing 3 years ago.

OMG Plexle, should you be reading what they are saying? Can you have it forwarded to a friend for safekeeping? {{{{Plexle}}}}

i'm scared shes going to 'unblock' herself on his BIM and then I can't read their emails, and I won't even know if I'm at risk for aids... he is lying to the intermediary saying he is not going to meet her now, but he is with her, as we speak...

If you are going to go in to Plan B then you won't read or snoop or anything. It really does save you from the drama. It is hard but it gets easier when you realize how good you can feel. This is a really hard time and you have to realize how strong you were to get to this step.

Thinking of you.

Question why would a husband take out the trash in the midst of a separation??

((((Plexle))))
OK, well now you know what your dealing with.
So won't Dr. H

At the advice of Dr H for your specific sitch Plan B will be a place for you to heal. As soon as you get the word from him you probably should isolate yourself from any information about WH.

This will probably be hard untill you let all the ppl involved at work etc etc. know that you don't want to hear about it. Good IMs will be invaluable.

Prayers going out to you and stay tight here with the many ppl who have come thru this and are going thru it right now.

You will have your dignity and self-respect restored in time.

I salute you Plex

Sort,

You're a really great 'sort' of poster on here. I just wanted to say that, I was re-reading alot of what you said you made me calm and feel confident.

At work, I've worked so hard to get where I am and force people to overlook its not my last name that got where I am--its my work ethic, so... I don't intend to comment at all to anyone about this at work, I will have to maintain my management position. And, that s protecting me. Plus, I wouldn't be able to hold it together probably while speaking of what he has done... and I can't spend my work life in the bathroom sobbing....

I have an appointment Wednesday morning with the Doc... I guess to cement details of planB since I didn't get any from DocH before implementing it. Luckily I do have intermediary who knows the whole story, including DocH's observations, and she's supportive of our marriage... Even allowing H to stay temporarily at her house (she has kids and a husband herself so it won't be for long).

If, at the meeting last night with OW, the OW succeeded in unblocking herself on the instant messaging system and as a result they will not have to use email-- I will have no way to protect myself or monitor his adultery, and will probably not be able to reconcile with him... I KNOW that's hard to understand,after everything I've been thru, but that's where I'm at... I'm feeling I need to prepare for life without him if I do lose that resource to see if he crossed the line and became physical. I just can't accept that. Period.

I realize the affair will die, he will wake up and realize he's been played... But I am not confident it will happen before they become physical. That being said, and having read the urgency he feels in wanting to hug her or whatever... If I lose that resource, I will lose hope, how can I reconcile and monitor him if thats gone... I have no way of protecting myself if thats the case.... How can I walk unarmed into the battleground,again?

I think you are doing fine Plex.

I hope you can have any monitoring software transfered to your IM so you wont be upset by it.

Of course it is up to you what you want to do with your marriage. IDK what is the problem with WH or why he feels he needs so much attention from OW. All I see is that it hurts you.

Dr. Harley is the expert here and I am not. I hope you see that I would support your WH if he posted here also. The thing I would support is.. your marriage. If and when he wants to learn how to be married I am sure he will be welcomed here. This is a place of learning and nobody shoud take sides.

As it is now, you are on the "side" of what is right in a marriage. That is my opinion and I think most of the ppl here will agree. Bottom line, Dr H is the authority on reconciliation and restoration and I for one will not second guess him.

In the end its about you and you being treated right. Thats what I will stand for here for you. Understand that right now we on the forum are standing up for you in a place that your Husband should be, and he can't,(or wont), for whatever reason. When its all over you wont need us as much because you will come through this. You allready are making the right decisions.


Thank you for the compliment Plex and I hope you will be around so we can help with the process of healing. I realize you are self-sufficient but you don't have to be alone.

See ya soon

Melody,

Know any good planB letters? Like for our situation? I counsel with DocH tomorrow and I wanted to have a draft ready...

Zero contact with WH. Only thru IM (told IM to tell him to pay the oil heating bill $900 and due in full or no more heat here!!! *gasping* he really put that one off...)

So what did the Doc say about a plan B letter for your sitch?

DocH liked the one that I wrote. So I left it for him here at the house to get when he arrived with the IM for more things and visiting the dog.

Bad news is apparently I gave it to WH at the wrong time, for WH left me a letter of his own--a temper tantrum style letter- in its stead when he came with the IM to get more things and visit the dog.

That was terribly upsetting--but at least I have good support, get think it thru and realize it for what it was 'I'm not getting what I want' speech--Fainne and others to get me thru the relaity of his 'tantrum' response.

Also the oW has convinced him I can read his emails so he obsessed about that and threatened to get another pager.

I am abiding by my planB letter--no contact with him until he stops contact with the OW. Interesting, today H tells our IM that he told oW to give him space... and yet my tantrum letter states that she is a friend and not giving her up...

*sigh*

Back to healing.

You are doing great. Have faith. I really think he just never expected you to stand up to him. Give him time to digest it and realize he'll have to respect you.

Awesome plex
So what fun and uplifting activitys do you have planned? Baby yourself and do all the things you can to keep your mind busy.

The gals here have a lot of suggestions for women going through this kind of Plan B. Im sure you are reading about them.

You are gonna be alright!!!

Hi,

I left my planB letter for him to find, while he visited the dog and got more things with an IM.

He left me a letter of his own... It was devastating. It wasn't expected and it was in MY safe place, and I was doing WELL with no contact and HEALING...

He opens with "First of all I'm also sorry for what I had done to put you in pain and hurt you by having conversation where you had read what you did." He's sorry he got caught, not that he stole the candy.

*DocH said his red flag was when H really never seemed to get that hiding the relationship was essential wrong, because it brought pleasure in a time of stress.*

he wants me to know he loves me and he will always love me but after saying that he's been unhappy and cannot continue to be that way, and how I haven't noticed I made HIM unhappy (when was he planning to tell ME that and not the OW??) He doesn't expect perfection at all as he isn't perfect either...

Basically, said he will not stop contact as OW is good friend, she understands him and he doesn't want to spend his lifetime with HER. He wants me to understand him, his vision, his pictures and I always block it...

He says too many sessions with DocH, obvious he's money hungry (he doesn't realize I scheduled the sessions) and he's going to find his own counselor to get his own anger out and help him to understand me, so I need another counselor to help me understand HIM.

He goes on to say that the fact that I don't trust him is ruining our marriage and that he "KNOWS" I'm reading all his email messages and its invasion of privacy, he goes on to threaten he will be forced to get a pager 'of his own' (I pay for his) if I don't stop as he is certain I found a way to read them. This is OW's influence, and having teenaged children I'm sure she uses the same techniques for monitoring. My husband hasn't used email with oW since the night he was asked to leave my home for our separation and went straight to meet her. He really does love me so much and hurts badly that we can't work it out as he misses me, home and the dog.

He goes on to make 'demands' of his own: I seek counseling with a different counselor, don't give HIM demands, respect his private conversations.

he elaborates further he in alot of pain but he'll stand strong and he'll survive. "I love you so much and I hope we can talk in person"

COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT of my planB letter. After a devastating sobbing session, I read it again, analyzed it and I have it:

Its a temper tantrum letter. Reminiscent of that screaming child wanting candy at the food store cashier station. Have to do as usual and ignore those...

I stand behind my letter--it was heartfelt and the path back to me. I will NOT respond to this muckety muck...

Meanwhile H s telling IM that he told OW to 'give him space' and she has agreed to do so. I personally think he's telling her (the IM where he also staying) what she wants to hear, to mooch out another week, rent-free... He's a savvy manipulator and he's got 'woe is me' down pat. Tsk. This is because he always says "I know" when the IM says 'you should stop contact and focus on your wife, that s OW is not your friend, she knows she's a barrier in your marriage"....

As usual, he says "i know" but he really means

Sadly, no emails have been sent to the counselor he states that he wishes to see, that he states emphatically he wants, to get issues inside himself out...
what an exhausting evening....

Hugs to you all.

Plexie, I'm pretty severely hearing impaired, although not totally deaf, and I think your WH needs to grow up!

I would NOT let him come to visit the dog, even with the IM.

He needs to understand what it is REALLY like not to have you in his life.

If he leaves any more notes, do not open or read them. Give them to your IM and let her deal with him. Her role is to protect you from his crap and not pass on any information other than necessary information such as financial info.

As for his not believing he's in an affair, NO WH who is "just talking" or "being friends" with another woman behind his wife's back thinks he's in an affair.

Being deaf just means that he can't hear, and maybe can't speak as hearing folks do. It shouldn't keep him from growing the heck up!

You do NOT need to be reading his emails or knowing what he is doing. Plan B is to PROTECT you and take you out of his drama. When he really decides to grow up and be the husband you deserve, he WILL tell you whether or not his affair became physical. Make sure he understands that you require total openess and honesty before you will let him come home.

Stay strong, Plexie!

2 U 2

Lady_Clueless, while I do appreciate your feedback for Plexle, I feel the need to respond to these.

When we say we are deaf, what we mean is we are not just physically deaf, but also culturally deaf. We already know we can do anything except hear, that infamous quote.

I don't think your intent was to offend, but it seems like you relate being deaf to not being grown up. I don't think anything Plexle or I said indicated this at all. We know many fine strong 'grown up' deaf adults. We're pretty grown up ourselves too.

Also, I do take issue with the words "hearing impaired". Why do you accept and use that label? It's like saying you are broken or not normal, and that is wrong. Why not "hard of hearing"?

Some ppl are touchy with labels and its hard to know what to use as terms. In the hearing world that term is used all the time and its second nature for us to use it. Its "politically correct". I know what you mean tho because sometimes it seems so "over compensating".

George Carlin was a master in the english launguage and its inflections that hide true meanings. He has a shpeel about a certain term and maybe you will agree that some of us hearing ppl can read between the lines.

___________________________________________________________

"In WW2 there was a phychiatric condition when men would come back from the tension of war called "Shell Shock". It described what happened to Men who were in battle and were terrified for such a long period of time that their nervous system wuld eventually break down. That very same condition in the Korean War was described as "Battle fatiuge" (The term doesn't sound as violent or descriptive as Shell Shock does it)
By the time the Vietnam War had these type of casualties they changed the term to even something more vague, "Post Tramatic Stress Disorder".
To me, I can understand how wondering when the next bomb or bullet was going to kill me.. "Shell Shock" would scare the heck out of me and I can relate better to the condition. PTSD is such a technical all encompassing term it almost sounds like the soldier is expected to talk himself out of it.

____________________________________________________


So whats my point? I hoped that you see that we can read between the lines and nobody here intends to say the wrong thing.

It seem that you are very sensitive to the words we "say"(type) but don't read between the lines and see that we are on you guys side. Is it because us hearing ppl don't see the written word as specifically as the Deaf? Are we so bombarded with words and terms that we forgot what they mean?

If you read back in this thread you will see when you guys took offense to what some of us said and told us so the responses tapered off for a few days. I don't talk to any of the people here outside the forum but in my opinion I could easily assume you offended them. Now when we start posting again you can't see that everyone here trys so hard to be helpful and get offended again? I honestly don't understand whay this is happening and I would love it if you could help me.

Please give us hearing people a break. We have to sort thru all the BullChit daily and as hypocritical as we are we really could use some enligthtenment from the deaf who hear more with thier eyes than we aknowledge with ours.

I Think Dr H will be very good for plex as a counselor and I will pray for her and her husband.

I'm not a person who is into being politically correct. Sometimes I say "hard of hearing"; other times I say "hearing impaired". "Hearing impaired" does not mean that I am impaired; it simply means that I am hearing impaired. My hearing IS impaired, even if I am not. No offense is intended toward you, Plexie, her husband, myself, or any other hard of hearing/deaf person. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

Culturally deaf: we already have our own language (American Sign Language), we have our own mannerisms, we have our own idioms, we all have common experiences, we have a deaf history, some of us even come from deaf families. We're proud to be deaf.

I know that things are easily misinterpreted or misunderstood, and that's why you have to be careful in what you say. What if I was an African American, for instance? Would you be saying things like that, using the word "black" for "deaf"? I don't think you would. In these statements, I detected a hint of Audism (discrimination against people based on their hearing level). And I've dealt with a lot of audism in my whole life so I don't think I'm imagining things here. I don't believe I am being overly sensitive here, I believe that I am seeing things for what they really are, in this case. Just like with affairs, when you see hints, symptoms, behaviors, certain wordings, you can identify it for what it is, which is someone's having an affair period.

"Hearing Impaired" is not politically correct. It's not like we haven't tried to change this. Some organizations on our behalf have put a lot of effort into getting the media and what have you to change this label. It's a horrible label, whatever you may think. No one is an impaired person. The fact that it's not really "impaired", it's "hearing impaired", just makes it worse. So we're lower than hearing people just because we don't hear like they do? It's the equivalent of the "N" word for African Americans or the "C" word for Asian Americans.

Hope that makes things more clear.

Hi Guys,

H has asked for his blackberry to be transferred to his own name/account.

H has counseling Monday.

I'm stupefied....

He is going to tell his "comforatable to him" counselor whatever suits his conscience.

I hope it goes well for you. I also hope he will be told to work with the Doc H by his monday counselor

No, in his temper tantrum letter on Wednesday (in response to my planB letter)he said that we BOTH need individual counseling.... In order to understand each other... I'm not going there because OW has him convinced that time I took his pager (because he locked it) was 'emotionally abusive'... She convinced him that my comment that should be able to share with me, the dialogues with her-means I am too 'controlling'. I cannot see where my H ends and she begins... Which says to me, he's probably still talking to her, he's still brainwashed... *sputtering*

Aside from this mucky muck, this counselor he will see is quite skilled-- I used to work with her for years and I've met people she's counseled. In fact, this counselor wrote a recommendation for my graduate school application. Immense respect--both ways, she and I. Besides, I've already filled her in... there's no getting anything by her...

I anticipate he'll look for validation and justification for his EA relationship from this counselor and when he doesn't find it he will not continue his counseling.

In reality--I'm quite aware that without counseling for his issues, our marriage doesn't stand a chance. Changing the blackberry to his name is symptom of his deeper issue and to be blatantly honest, I cannot ever really see myself trusting him again. Least not as it stands now, he's so disturbed on a deep level, I know within myself I will see a change in him when he has a genuine shift in consciousness and understanding of the gravity of the situation and his behavior....

I think we have so much less chance for recovery than normal affairs :o(

where's melody? :-(

Hey Plex, how are you holding up, friend?

Believe it or not this is part of why ppl have relationships outside of marriage. Even though your H is a diffent type of personality he could find a way to deal appropiatly with his emotions and with women.

Well thats my hope anyways. But you just keep taking care of Plexle

HI Melody Lane, It's so good to see you!! :o)

I went out dancing last night for the first time in years. It was SO GREAT to dance all the frustrations away from this week. It was a perfect evening with a pal. It helps that I had new jeans on (smaller size) and some new style... I felt cute... considering...

I wanted to say for anybody in planb and having an IM-- if you're reading here that I had to 'coach' my IM. I had to explain that its best to give me a warning message before dropping me a line from my H. I told her to say " I have a message, please let me know when you're ready". It helps alot and I'm not caught unaware when I pick up the blackberry.

As for Saturday, I felt I needed to dance off the separation, (1 week ago today) H's request for 'permission', (I already emailed explicit directions for him to transfer his stupid blackberry to his own name on Friday, but Saturday according to the IM he wanted 'permission' * I paid for the blackberry and i'm guessing thats his issue*) Then, on top of that, came the stupid request to come here to my home and do laundry on my favorite day to stay home--Sunday! That was met with a swift and resounding 'NO'. Grrr, he still doesn't get it.... I told the IM "he needs to accept that fact that we're separated and this is not his home anymore, he can't just come in here and lay around for a few hours" the iM understands. He'll be coming tomorrow for ONE HOUR with the IM because I will already be at work, to get things. I left a message that I wanted to know about the neglected $900 oil(heat) bill. (He took 2 bills the last time he was here and I think he paid them, oil and cable) but I want details.

Inside, I have this hollow ache... This soft echo, if you will, of where the H and the pain associated with him used to reside...

I'm good generally speaking. I'm resigned to the fact that I will be alone for quite some time. That's never been my fear. I'm proud of myself for drawing a line and saying "I will not be disrespected anymore".

I feel good knowing H's counselor has all the facts going in... It's going to be hard to explain away 3 EA's. That's another thing, there's 3 in all, and he doesn't think the 2nd one was a real EA. Honestly I hope he doesn't even try to waste time justifying his wayward behavior... but in reality, I think he will.

I want to thank you ML, for your help back then, when we thought we were dealing with a standard situation and you explained to me about not allowing my emotions to drive the boat. You saved me. You got me thru four FULL days of Grad school classes. You know how everything is bigger in Texas?! (I lived n Waco and happened to find God there) I'm telling you ML, your spirit is just so big, it guided me down the right path.

Thank you Sort, for all of your support. I really look forward to seeing you here often. I know my thread isn't interesting anymore but I really have developed this excitement of seeing ya'll around in here.

You will allways be interesting to me silly.

It has been inspirational to see you deal with this important and personal issue in your life with such clarity of mind.

Proud to have been of help and will be around for sure.

Hey Plexle! Glad to hear you got out and had a good time!

A few suggestions about Plan B. Please ask your IM to read this thread Intermediary Training School.

The most important thing about Plan B is that it should mimick DIVORCE in every way. That means the WS does not ever come in the house. Letting the WS in the house gives him a "FIX" which allows him to stay out even longer. It also defeats the purpose of plan B because it keeps you triggered and drawn into his web. The locks should be changed if you can't keep him out, but he should never be allowed back in your house again until he ends this affair.

I think your IM is giving you way too much information. She should not be passing on any of his messages unless it is critical information in accordance to your Plan B letter, such as the news that he has ended his affair and is recommiting to the marriage. OR, critical financial information. She should act as a SPAM filter and phrase everything in her words. About 90% of the messages a WS tries to send through, should never make it through.

If he attempts to reconcile, then she should not tell you unless she has determined that he is sincere. It is her job to protect you from any false attempts.

As far as finances, I would set this up so you can eliminate as much contact as possible. Instead of communicating about each and every bill, think of a way that can be avoided and have your IM communicate this. For example, figure out how much you need from him each month and ask him to send you a check every month on the 15th. That will wipe out the need to communicate over bills.

Because here is an important thing to remember, Plex, the more contact he has with you, the more assured he is that you are sitting on the sidelines waiting for him while he has some fun. Your odds of reconciliation go UP the darker you are. Please become OBSESSED with staying as dark as possible. And train your IM to not pass on anything to you unless it is crucial.

I am an IM for 2-3 people and even in my highest maintenance case, with 2 children, I am only passing on ONE message every 3 weeks. Anything more than that indicates a leaky Plan B that is not effective.

If your IM has any questions about what to pass on and how to deal with him, have her email me, Plex!

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In this case, the IM could have told him he can't come in and just not tell you about the communication. This way she acts as a SPAM FILTER and protects you from any contact. I only tell my BS' when there is pertinent information or sometimes I will just tell her/him that the WS has tried to get in contact and leave it at that.

Thank you Melody, Now that I have a healthy dose of your support here, I think I'll finally feel like I'm on the right track.

I cannot believe how far I've come and I feel so much better standing up for whats right... It's all you wonderful people here... I can never repay you all... There isn't enough words for my gratitude... When I'm in pain I find myself recognizing every single positive and I ooze with gratitude and love... It's odd but its true. I'm very giving, even when wounded....

Hope this bumps my thread so Arkhawk can see it.....

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Plexle}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}] you are a dear, dear person.

Thanks Mel. would you go over to Scotlands thread and splain the role of an IM to her? It might just be me but it seems that she has to deal with WH way to much. and he keeps hitting her with emergency demands. I think she might need to coach her Ims a little bit

Hows it goin plex?