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By nature, they seem to be the types of folks who look for external factors to both justify their actions and to provide for their happiness and contentment. They are leaves blown about by the wind. Truly pathetic.
The waywards find themselves, their identity, in the reflection of other people's opinion.
This is why so many of them, while in their affair, demonstrate characteristics soooooo similar to BPD (borderline personality disorder).
Lost? Yes. Pathetic? Usually. Permanent? Not usually.
Waywards lose their identity soon after the last "slurp" of contact with their mirror/reflected identity ... and the wayward cannot wait until their next "slurp" of reflected identity.
You done good Superman !
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External Locus of Control Individual believes that his/her behaviour is guided by fate, luck, or other external circumstances
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Internal Locus of Control Individual believes that his/her behaviour is guided by his/her personal decisions and efforts.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
As some of you may know by now, I'm kind of a big movie guy. I liked the movie 'Signs'. Not universally praised, but I liked it. Why? Because of the very issue that Pep and Z bring up. Their issue reminded me of a scene from the movie. And I think it makes for such an interesting discussion:
Graham Hess: "People break down into two groups. When they experience something lucky, group number one sees it as more than luck, more than coincidence. They see it as a sign, evidence, that there is someone up there, watching out for them. Group number two sees it as just pure luck. Just a happy turn of chance. I'm sure the people in group number two are looking at those fourteen lights in a very suspicious way. For them, the situation is a fifty-fifty. Could be bad, could be good. But deep down, they feel that whatever happens, they're on their own. And that fills them with fear. Yeah, there are those people. But there's a whole lot of people in group number one. When they see those fourteen lights, they're looking at a miracle. And deep down, they feel that whatever's going to happen, there will be someone there to help them. And that fills them with hope."
"See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, that sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky?"
"Or, look at the question this way: Is it possible that there are no coincidences?"
TB
Last edited by BTinBL; 02/03/1001:35 PM. Reason: Added quotes
See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, that sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky?
I see dead people.
Ok, sorry I couldn't resist...I see miracles, see the hand of God not "coincidence"
As some of you may know by now, I'm kind of a big movie guy. I liked the movie 'Signs'. Not universally praised, but I liked it. Why? Because of the very issue that Pep and Z bring up. Their issue reminded me of a scene from the movie. And I think it makes for such an interesting discussion:
Graham Hess: "People break down into two groups. When they experience something lucky, group number one sees it as more than luck, more than coincidence. They see it as a sign, evidence, that there is someone up there, watching out for them. Group number two sees it as just pure luck. Just a happy turn of chance. I'm sure the people in group number two are looking at those fourteen lights in a very suspicious way. For them, the situation is a fifty-fifty. Could be bad, could be good. But deep down, they feel that whatever happens, they're on their own. And that fills them with fear. Yeah, there are those people. But there's a whole lot of people in group number one. When they see those fourteen lights, they're looking at a miracle. And deep down, they feel that whatever's going to happen, there will be someone there to help them. And that fills them with hope."
"See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, that sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky?"
"Or, look at the question this way: Is it possible that there are no coincidences?"
Hey don't forget ol' Fred Grandy (aka 'Gopher') - esteemed member of Congress. Iowa. Not in office any longer, though. Wanted to be governor. Didn't work out so well.....
Hey don't forget ol' Fred Grandy (aka 'Gopher') - esteemed member of Congress. Iowa. Not in office any longer, though. Wanted to be governor. Didn't work out so well.....
Waywards lose their identity soon after the last "slurp" of contact with their mirror/reflected identity ... and the wayward cannot wait until their next "slurp" of reflected identity.
This is the very definition of Narcissism. All waywards behave like Narcs while wayward, but someone with Narc traits who becomes wayward - look out. They're in heaven and I don't think they'll ever stop. They don't even know what you're talking about. You might as well ask them to stop breathing. They have NO idea who they are unless reflected in they eyes of others - as many others as possible - and don't comprehend that not everyone lives this way.
I've often thought that *The Wizard of Oz* is a very good metaphor for Narcissism - that you can't go around looking for someone else (The Wizard) to give you the traits you want. You have to find them within yourself, because The Wizard is a fraud, after all, and there really is no place like home.
Me, BW WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
I've often thought that *The Wizard of Oz* is a very good metaphor for Narcissism - that you can't go around looking for someone else (The Wizard) to give you the traits you want. You have to find them within yourself, because The Wizard is a fraud, after all, and there really is no place like home.
Hey don't forget ol' Fred Grandy (aka 'Gopher') - esteemed member of Congress. Iowa. Not in office any longer, though. Wanted to be governor. Didn't work out so well.....
Fred Grandy is now (and has been for years) a morning drive-time radio personality on a top-rated show in the Washington, DC area. He is partnered with a fellow named Andy Parks, and their show is called, "Grandy and Andy."
Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words. St. Francis of Assissi
I remember those Saturday nights, everyone else had a date, but not Luri.....She watched Chips at 7, Love Boat at 8, and Fantasy Island at 9. Woe, woe is me.......
I remember those Saturday nights, everyone else had a date, but not Luri.....She watched Chips at 7, Love Boat at 8, and Fantasy Island at 9. Woe, woe is me.......
By nature, they seem to be the types of folks who look for external factors to both justify their actions and to provide for their happiness and contentment. They are leaves blown about by the wind. Truly pathetic.
Just wanted to point out that this trait isn't necessarily "nature" or "organic"...Sometimes it is "nurture", and is seen quite frequently in children of practicing alcoholics and/or children of the untreated mentally ill - and though I'm not a big fan of delving into "childhood issues" to deal with what is in front of you *today*, I do think this particular part of "nurture" can be relevant...
I know it was for me...That is not to say that I needed to understand that before stopping the bad behavior, just something that I have come to know about myself during recovery...I am also a firm believer that "nurture" or "learned behaviors" can be unlearned and CHANGED!
The life of a child of a practicing alcoholic or untreated mentally ill person DOES seem out of their control...really it IS out of their control...So they learn to adapt by watching the behavior of others in the household - this is how they determine how they feel - how they behave - what is acceptable in the household for that day...This way of living often creates a highly intuitive person, but at a high cost...All of their own personal power is given to others...This way of living sets them up to exist on the whims/opinions of others...Who they are IS determined by others...Compliments send them soaring, and by the same token criticism reduces them instantly to the lowest of lows...Criticism carries far more weight than compliments, btw - it takes about a million compliments to balance out one criticism...so they CRAVE compliments...makes sense - to me anyway...
No kidding this is how I lived for YEARS...
I remember when our daughter started pre-school I thought it was some new educational movement when her teachers emphasized teaching the students the importance of making "wise choices"...I am not kidding! That is how foreign the concept of every individual's life being a direct result of their own choices was to me! I honestly believed that life "just happened" to me - because really, that had been my experience in living with a father with Bipolar Disorder that remained unmedicated - well except for "self medication" with alcohol...It embarrasses me to admit that I didn't understand something as simple as "your choices make your life", but it was true...
I credit this forum - for teaching me otherwise - specifically Pep and Mel - Pep because of her "your opinion of me is none of my business" quote [I LOVE THAT! ], and Mel because she HAMMERED it in to me that I was giving away my power, and that the "lady in the mirror's opinion" was what was important - that and Mr. W's opinion of course ...I also credit Dr. Harley's teachings for my learning about how my choices affect our lives - I have seen that feelings follow actions based upon his behaviorist approach...
I agree, Mrs W. I grew up in that type of environment, as well. Messes you up, but one can get better.
Yes they can, Zelmo! Thank God! AND, growing up that way is NO EXCUSE for doing what I did - as an adult I was fully responsible for getting myself straightened out...I am thankful that I finally have...I hate that others paid a high price for me to learn...
I agree, Mrs W. I grew up in that type of environment, as well. Messes you up, but one can get better.
So, Mark, not a Ponch fan? What was the other guy's name?
John was the character, not sure of the actor. Frankly I preferred "Emergency!" Love those fireman They are HOT
Randolph Mantooth(wonder if he needed braces as a kid. Maybe it was "boytooth", until he grew up.) Didn't you love those Jack Webb/Dragnet Spinoofs? Adam 12, Emergency, any others?
Sorry to interrupt the fun for a minute, but I just wanted to thank all the participants in this thread, especially Zelmo and Mrs Wondering. Your insights and comments have given me a new understanding of my WH and set a lightbulb moment off in my head.
He and I had both become aware that his craving for approval and admiration has been way out of control for a long time, and while it doesn't excuse his A, he has chosen to start getting help for it but had no idea how to even define it let alone get help.
The comments on growing up in an alcoholic/untreated mentally ill household shone a light on the subject and we now have a place to start, so thank you so much for giving me a touch of hope.
BW (Me) - 32 WH - 29 2 DD's - 4 & 7 Together 9yrs; Married 3yrs OG - 17 EA/PA 1/09 - 2/10; D-Day #1 10/01/10 D-Day #2 2/02/10; N/C Est 2/02/10 One day at a time
Pep, back to that whole "Fred" stand-in thing.....
Why would actors need stand-ins for a show like 'Love Boat'. Not a lot of guys leaping off of buildings, and despite the title of the show, certainly not anything of a "gratuitous" nature....
Just wanted to point out that this trait isn't necessarily "nature" or "organic"...Sometimes it is "nurture", and is seen quite frequently in children of practicing alcoholics and/or children of the untreated mentally ill . . .
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The life of a child of a practicing alcoholic or untreated mentally ill person DOES seem out of their control...really it IS out of their control...So they learn to adapt by watching the behavior of others in the household - this is how they determine how they feel - how they behave - what is acceptable in the household for that day...This way of living often creates a highly intuitive person, but at a high cost...All of their own personal power is given to others...This way of living sets them up to exist on the whims/opinions of others...Who they are IS determined by others...Compliments send them soaring, and by the same token criticism reduces them instantly to the lowest of lows...
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I honestly believed that life "just happened" to me - because really, that had been my experience in living with a father with Bipolar Disorder that remained unmedicated - well except for "self medication" with alcohol...It embarrasses me to admit that I didn't understand something as simple as "your choices make your life", but it was true...
Wow - some amazing insight there. I can see where growing up in a chaotic, poverty-stricken household with a drug-addicted mother, an alcoholic father and five kids with each one barely spaced a year apart could have the same effect.
I noticed that on *Sex Rehab with Dr. Drew,*, Dr. Drew repeated that what all sex addicts had in common was a chaotic upbringing - often with sexual or physical abuse, but *always* with chaos and neglect.
The idea that life "just happens" and you are powerless to change it explains a lot, too. You will go through life just reacting to what's in front of you instead of making your own choices and your own decisions.
Wow. Thanks.
Me, BW WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
I grew up believing that I had the power to make my father angry and to break my mother's heart. I thought that I was supposed to be perfect, and that if I was not, I was causing the people I loved great pain. I grew up believing that something was wrong with me because I was human. I grew up believing that I had power over other peoples feelings - and they had power over mine.
In my codependence I learned to be enmeshed with other people - to not have healthy boundaries that told me who "I" was, and that I was a separate person from them. I had to become hyper-vigilant in childhood. I learned to focus on trying to interpret what my parents and other authority figures were feeling in order to try to protect myself. As an adult, I unconsciously tried to manipulate people - by trying to be what they wanted me to be if I wanted them to like me, or trying to be either intimidating or invisible if that seemed the safest course. I had no real concept of being responsible for my own feelings because I had learned that other people were responsible for my feelings - and vice versa. I had to learn to start defining myself emotionally as separate from other people in order to start learning who I was.
I was not able to start seeing myself as separate in a healthy way (I had always felt that I was separate in an unhealthy way - shameful and unworthy) until I started to see that I had been powerless over the behavior patterns I learned in childhood. Since my behavior patterns, my behavioral and emotional defense systems, had developed in reaction to the feeling that there was something wrong with me, I had to learn to start taking power away from the toxic shame that is at the core of this disease. Toxic shame involves thinking that there is something wrong with who we are. Guilt - in my definition - involves behavior, while shame is about our being. Guilt is: I did something wrong; I made a mistake. Shame is: I am a mistake; something is wrong with me.
He and I had both become aware that his craving for approval and admiration has been way out of control for a long time, and while it doesn't excuse his A, he has chosen to start getting help for it but had no idea how to even define it let alone get help.
I know exactly what you're talking about. I lived with it, too, but nothing can be done when an "out of control craving" to others is "I'm just special and entitled and I deserve this so get outta my way!" to him.
Narcs honestly believe that everybody is like them and anyone who pretends otherwise is just trying to control them.
To me, a narcissist/attention addict is like someone who is offered a lovely home-cooked dinner made just for them, but they angrily refuse because it's "only" normal and they want and deserve so much more than that!
Instead, they go out and gorge themselves on mountains of junk food - but no matter how much they get, they never fill up and are never satisfied and always feel empty, empty, empty.
What a terrible way to live.
Me, BW WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
Mulan, your food analogy is spot on. As a friend told me after D-Day, why would you trade steak for bologna???
On another note, I am deeply hurt at the scorn and derision exrpessed by Mark and Pep in response to my heartfelt sharing of my horrible teenage Satuday night television experiences. Just saying.
On another note, I am deeply hurt at the scorn and derision exrpessed by Mark and Pep in response to my heartfelt sharing of my horrible teenage Satuday night television experiences. Just saying.
Har - t - har
Please accept my apology for your entire teenage experience.
Pep, back to that whole "Fred" stand-in thing.....
Why would actors need stand-ins for a show like 'Love Boat'. Not a lot of guys leaping off of buildings, and despite the title of the show, certainly not anything of a "gratuitous" nature....
Just wondering'.....
TB
Stand in: Must be approximate same height/weight/coloring/age
Stand in for actor while lighting is adjusted, scenes blocked, etc.
Pep, back to that whole "Fred" stand-in thing.....
Why would actors need stand-ins for a show like 'Love Boat'. Not a lot of guys leaping off of buildings, and despite the title of the show, certainly not anything of a "gratuitous" nature....
Just wondering'.....
TB
Stand in: Must be approximate same height/weight/coloring/age
Stand in for actor while lighting is adjusted, scenes blocked, etc.
NOT a stunt double.
Did I mention I often act as Brad Pitt's body double? (Okay, I had to lose a lttle of my normal muscle and put on a layer of fat, as I was too defined.)
I grew up in an extremely stable, loving, wonderful family with parents who were very normal, very caring and very loving.
I cannot bear criticism of any sort. It cuts into me like a knife. I also need constant appreciation and admiration. Whenever I do personality tests that's what always shows up. When we had a course at work which was based on personality, when the convenor described criticism cutting like a knife and affecting my particular personality type I nearly cried for joy. I had never had that said before. I just thought I was nuts.
I am not empty, I'm extremely happy. I don't look for constant admiration any more - I'm happier in my skin now that I'm older and realise I don't have to match up to my sister all the time. My parents didn't do that, my sister did. "You're so STUPID", "why do you think that, it's STUPID", "you didn't say that did you, how STUPID".
Speaking of narcissism and tv, did anyone catch Criminal Minds last night? In case you haven't and you still want to I'll hide it.
The unsub was a sociopath who conned wealthy (mostly married) women out of their money posing as an investments guy and charming the sox off them. In their description of the sociopath characteristics, they talked about narcissism and self entitlement. The guy turned out to be married himself with a young son and naturally his wife had no clue what he was up to. She ended up following him to one particular OW's house who just happened to be pregnant with her husband's child. The OW had no idea he was married and this was the first time the wife had any idea her husband was cheating as well (not to mention the financial cons he was pulling off). She even claimed he was a loving husband and father. I thought it interesting in that this guy's behavior, though extreme, was very typically wayward.
...I also credit Dr. Harley's teachings for my learning about how my choices affect our lives - I have seen that feelings follow actions based upon his behaviorist approach...
They are HOT 
dance to this music!