OK, I'm back.

I have thought long and hard, searched my soul, I have read and re-read Dr. Harley's material, I have read a ton of other material.

I am NOT telling the kids without my wife being present. Thank God I had the common sense to come to this conclusion. Telling them behind her back would have assuredly been the death blow to any chance of recovery. I know my wife, I know her temperment pre-affair.

The OVERWHELMING majority of psycologist agree with me on this (Both present when revealing marital problems to the kids). Almost every other bit of literature I've read agrees on this point. Everyone that I am counting on for support and who are on my side agree on this. It is the right thing to do for the kids.

You don't have to tell me the MB success rate. I have bought in.
It is a great path for recovering a marriage. But, it is not the only path, and it can be varied according to the situation. At some point we have to rely on our own judgement. Also, please show me where Dr. Harley states that the children should be told alone?

You say I need to do it alone because she will twist the situation and fill them with lies. Can I be relied upon to give them and unbiased account in my emotional state? Try as I may, that's likely not possible. Even if it were possible, that would not be the perception of anyone else involved in our situation and tremdous setback in my efforts. It would be viewed by all involved as using the kids as a weapon in the fight, something I will NEVER do.

My wife may be wayward right now, but she is also an intelligent and reasonable women who I still care greatly about and who still loves our kids. When they need to be told, we will come up with a stategy TOGETHER. That can happen now that the affair is in the open.

I will not argue anymore on this issue. If we can agree to disagree, I hope that you guys can continue to give me advice and support on this forum.

Take what you need and leave the rest.

Gather all the information I can from trusted sources, then make the best decision possible based on that information.

For almost three years I have observed on this forum as hurting people cherry picked what seemed to "fit" their unique A situation as they understood it, instead of follwing the MB program and listening to the people here who have walked the walk. Some came around in time, some just lived to regret it, others came back to tell how deviating from MB advice had cost them.

I include myself in with the group that thought that our circumstance was "different." It cost me months of unneccesary grief before I finally came around. I wish you luck.

God's Blessings,

Say

Thanks for your well wishes. I will continue to rely on this board for advice, encouragement, and support.

I am in full swing Plan A. I told that my wife that I will be doing everthing in my power to make a happy, loving home for her and the kids and that I will always be there for her. No more talks about our relationship, we both know where we stand.

Hi schtoop,

Your decision is respected and I'll see if I can TRY to avoid arguing too much in favor of exposure since that's your request.

Regarding your question of where does Dr. Harley said to tell the kids alone, I don't know if that's been explicitly said by him. If you want to tell your kids together with your WW then go for it. Just be aware that the situation may spin out of your control because WS are unpredictable. It's your call.

You probably don't want to delay the exposure to them for too long. They may be suffer with the confusion of your WW behavior if they don't know why mommy is so unhappy. Going back to exposure later on will also reopen wounds. Just so you know, your WW may try to delay exposure to them indefinitely.

I'm sure your wife is intelligent, reasonable and a very good mother. I feel the same about my wife. Something that's been hard to accept for me is that my WAYWARD wife doesn't have those qualities.

I think you'd be well advised if you coach with the Harleys. They'll to talk to your WW, assess your situation and recommend what's best for your specific situation. In my case, Steve Harley, recommended not exposing to certain people because it wasn't in our best interests. I can only say how beneficial it has been in my situation to have a professional (who's coached thousands of people in this type of crisis) listen to both sides and help with a plan.

Hang in there man.

--ElCamino72

Talk less -act more. And it will take her awhile to believe your actions!

That's where I'm at now. We've had 2 long talks about all the reasons we grew apart, how I make her feel stifled, and how she can't wait to get out of the house when I'm around (on D-day + 1 and on Exposure night).

I will not engage in that discussion again. If she wants to talk about going forward, I will listen until my ears fall off. But, she has no interest in that discussion right now and I'm not going to push it.

You are right. Plan A is all about actions right now and not talk. Just one problem, I believe that two of her biggest emotional needs are conversation and intimate touch (not sexual). She is not receptive to either right now, so I'll have to work by just avoing love busters and meeting the needs that I can.

Unless I'm recalling incorrectly, I believe the advice from Dr. Harley is that the children should be told of the affair. That's the first edict. As far as who should tell them...I can't recall if I've ever heard him say that the parents should NOT tell them together. I do recall reading his advice to AVOID having the wayward spouse tell them on his/her own because of the likely spin factor.

So if you are there, Schtoop, then it's probably a good plan. I think the advice to be on the lookout for her to try to spin things and push them out of control though, is good.

Dear schtoop,

I have not posted in your thread before but "both present revealing your marital problems to the kids" statement reminded me a little scene from my almost recent past.

In august 2008, when my WW had revealed that she was involved with OM we initially agreed that we should divorce because this was not her first OM.

I found the information that we should tell together the kids about divorce from infidelity.com.

So, we did tell kids together that we will be divorced. When my DD(then 11) asked why, my WW said something about that our love just came to an end or similar. OM was also mentioned.

When kids left to their rooms I remember being furious like what??? - we are getting divorced because you cheated not because "our love just ended".

What I am trying to say is that if you want that your kids will know what actually is happening in their lives and if you will tell that only if your WW agrees then your kids will never know the truth.

schtoop, it is absolutely your right to talk to the kids with your WW present. One thought - it might be a good idea to brainstorm with your WW on exactly what each of you will say prior to talking to them. At least establish a loose script so both of you know what the other intends to say. You don't want to be in a situation where your WW blindsides you by suddenly spinning things. OTOH, it will give you both a chance to rehearse your wording so that you both come out feeling comfortable with the conversation. The main thing is that you both reassure the kids that they are your priority, will continue to be taken care of and are NOT the reason for the marital issues. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that, though.

Well, now you know. Just ignore fog babble. Her words are a product of little aliens in WW's head using her as a host to relay crazy messages to you. Those nasty aliens are now hard at work trying to make WW hang on to the impossible.

So avoid getting baited into relationship talk. That's just going to further infuriate your WW and prolong the withdrawal. In the beginning, I used to bend over backwards trying to talk some sense into my WW. You see, my wife is a very smart woman so I was trying to convince her of how wrong she was. It was really frustrating that not a single word would get through. We'd only make each other more miserable with every relationship conversation.

I wasn't until I came here (a couple of months after DDay) that I learned the lesson about not reasoning with a WS. Just think that whatever they say during withdrawal it's just noise coming out of their mouth.

Even conversations that may seem friendly in the beginning may take a sudden turn into WS nastiness road - so beware. That's why you don't want to engage in any emotionally loaded conversations for quite a while. Just change topic as soon as she tries to have any relationship talk. You'll be better off until she's ready to do it in a controlled fashion.

BTW, I think that somebody should invent a BS training collar. It'd send a electrical shock to the BS when trying to educate a WS I'd have found such gadget very useful cause it is really hard for me to resist counter arguing fog-babble with my WS.

--ElCamino72

Good morning and a few thoughts of the day.

Yesterday was a better day. We both went about our days, interacted with the kids as normal, and even shared a little conversation about day-to-day issues with my wife. I went to bed first last night and noticed that she joined me in the early morning hours. However, she didn't end up staying long so I don't know what any of this means. She suffers from insomnia, so I won't read anything into any of it.

I have set up an appointment with a highly recommended counselor next week and she agreed to go.

"His Needs, Her Needs" and "Surviving an Affair" arrived in the mail yesterday. I was reading HNHN when she got home from a church meeting last night and have left it out on our end table. I'm not hiding "Surviving", but I'm not going to flaunt it or force it to her right now.

There has been very little activity on her cell phone since exposure. I don't know if she may be afraid to talk to anyone, or is using her disposable knowing that I am watching.

Speaking of cell phones, the sight of it makes me sick. I discovered the A by looking at calling and messaging history on her phone and tracked the A by looking at cell phone logs. Most of the contacts and interaction were by cell phone. Talk about the trigger that keeps on giving, I cringe everytime I hear the damn thing ring or beep.


That will certainly be the plan.

It's full speed plan A right now. I'm not in the position right now to meet many of her emotional needs, but will try hard on the ones that she allows. I can certainly work hard on avoiding love busters, including bad habits. The biggest is drinking beer, which I have done daily for nearly all of our married life. Not to excess (like being drunk or neglecting the kids, usually 2 or 3 over the course of an evening, more on weekends), but very persistent. I put it down for a couple of months last year, but then fell back into it. My inlaws stated that they didn't see it as big problem, but I know it has played a large role in us drifting apart. Drinking beer and watching football, tuning her out is NOT meeting EN's!

I have not had a drop since the day after D-day, nor will I ever again.

The single biggest source of unmet Emotional Needs and love busters is domestic housework, and not like you think. I could write pages on this problem, but will try to be brief here. I do the lion's share and have since the birth of our first child or even sooner. I was thinking this was a great way to meet her EN's. Instead, I've figured out that this item is not high at all on her list. I would get frustrated when it wouldn't work and even more frustrated that she would actually sabotage my efforts to keep a neat house. This turned out to be our biggest trigger to arguements, especially when I would try to force her to help our or at least not hinder me, it would turn into a huge Love Buster. Now even the sight of me doing housework automatically triggers love bank withdrawals.

I will work hard to change that. I will still do my best around the house, but not even mention needing help from my wife. I will try to clean when she's not around, and leave her areas (her laundry, bedroom, pile of mail on our dining room table) completely alone.

Oh yeah, one last thought, and this one is a doozy.

I came to a little bit of peace yesterday. I am not SCARED of divorce anymore. When I first found out about the affair and realized it was a strong possibility, it frightened the hell out of me.

I don't want D, I would hate for it to happen, hate what it would do to the kids, hate to not have my wife and best friend with me anymore, but I am not scared.

I am making positive changes in my life and will come out of this a better man, better father, and better husband (either to her or beyond). I hope she is with me to see that, but will be fine if she isn't.

Well done. You've faced the worst demon and have realized that it can't kill you. That's empowering. Empowerment is an impressive thing to feel, and your WW should see that difference. Whether or not she cares is up to her, of course. But it IS good for you.

Just checking back in after a rollercoaster weekend.

I started to detail all the ups and downs, but that's just boring details at this point.

There were some encouraging moments, but a lot to get me down, also.

Major downers:

Hearing from my mother-in-law that she doesn't see a lot of hope for the marriage after talking with the WW. I tried to explain about fogbabble, but realized it was pointless. Still hurts to know the wife thinks that way.

Wife being out until 3:30 A.M. Saturday night. She went to a "passion party" with a bunch of friends and then had to take someone home to the other side of town is why she was so late (according to WW). I know, major red flags, but I can't prove otherwise. I know where she keeps her second cell phone and it didn't show contact since the OM broke it off with her. Even if her whereabouts were legit, it still shows a tremendous lack of consideration and respect for me at this point.

Sunday was more of her withdrawn personality (which has been evident since even before the start of the A). Wouldn't get up to go to church with us, complained of headaches when we got back and stayed in bed until 1:00.

I take the kids to a Superbowl party while she has a couple friends over to our house for an "anti-football" party. One of them is her bar buddy, who knew about the A and was her cover for going out in the past. This friend says she disapproved and was not facilitating, but it was still a major trigger to see her in my house. Chalk up another point to lack of sensitivity.

Right now things still point to the A being over. There has been no contact that I know of since I called the OM and he broke things off with her. I'm hoping and thinking he was pretty blunt with her, didn't care for her that much in the first place, and that most of this was her fantasy.

The affair isn't what hurts so much at this point.

What hurts is hearing how awful I was and how bad this marriage was anyway.

What hurts is not the forgiving, it's that she doesn't even care enough to ask for it.

What hurts no desire on her part to even try.

What hurts is no matter how much I try or how successful I am in changing, I'm afraid it will be seen as too little too late.

What hurts is the utter lack of of consideration, sensitivity, and respect that has been shown through this whole ordeal.

Plan A is really tough under these circumstances, but I'm not thowing in the towel. There were a couple encouraging moments during the weekend, also. I just hope she can come out of the fog and withdrawal.

Patience, young Jedi. Just keep up your plan A changes, make sure there is NC w/ OM or there aren't any new OM, and after several months (I know, I said months, that sucks), you'll probably start to see some improvement.

Morning update:

Rough night last night.

Today we have an appointment that I set up with a counselor who comes highly recommended. I have actually been looking forward to this opportunity. Yesterday my wife finally showed enough interest to ask who we were seeing. I told her his name and that he came highly recommended, and of course her next question was "by who?".

For a little background, one of the people I had a long talk with last week (during exposure) was her old supervisor (she got laid off in December) who was also a friend of ours. Of all the people I exposed to, this was the one that really set her off. She claims that he is no longer a friend and is a backstabbing opportunists. She has not talked to him since being laid off. She now thinks that the news of her A will now be all over the professional community.

Well, the guy (old friend) was actually very helpful and did shed some light on her situation and demeanor at work. Also, the receptionist at her old job is a good friend of hers and knew about the A. I feel this lady was an enabler and encouraged the affair. Phone records show that after nearly every conversation with the OM, my wife immediately called this friend afterwards.

Anyway, her old boss put me in touch with a higher ranking man at her old job who very active in his church and works with their marriage recovery ministry. This guy was very supportive and was the one who recommended the counselor.

Upon hearing who recommended the counselor my wife went ballistic again. Claims that I was just "getting even" by spreading her personal life all over the workplace. She also balked at the idea of a Christian counselor, which surprises me. My wife has always been stronger in her faith than me and is very involved in our church.

I tried to hold my tounge through all of this and I never got angry or raised my voice. But, I did point out that it was her that brought it into the workplace through her conspiracy with the receptionist, and that she risked this knowledge coming out everytime she was out in public with the OM. I also calmly told her that this receptionist is no friend of mine and no friend of the marriage.

So now we're going to this appointment today with a poisoned attitude already. I don't anticipate much good coming out of it.

Schtoop,

Professional counselors are generally pretty good at disarming contentious attitudes. Just make sure you take a good attitude with you.

I dealt with the GF issue. GF was the only one outside the A that knew about it. It disturbed my W that I felt that way about someone we had known for 20 years. GF was invited over so we could talk about the way I felt. Unfortunately, I probably got a little graphic about what her silence allowed FWW to engage in. It ended exactly with your thought. I told her someone that was not a friend of the marriage was not a person that I wanted as a friend for my wife.

Well, she was already going in with a "poisoned" attitude regardless of who recommended the MC. She's still very deep in the fog so her wayward mentality is gonna go there kicking and screaming. A good MC should be able to find a way to convince her.

Just make sure that your MC concentrates in the A and its present consequences right off the bat. At this point you don't want the MC to turn into a search for your problems of childhood. Also watch out for any sessions together since that may further alienate your WW. The reason I'm saying this is because I spent 3 months with a well meaning MC that didn't really help.

Let us know how the session went.

Stay strong.

--ElCamino72