Yet another newbie...

I'm not ready to go into a lot of details right now, kind of dipping my toes into the water.

D-Day was very recent, there were finally enough signs that I checked my wife's cell phone messages.

Subsequently, I found this websight and all of the great information that Dr. Harley has here, free of charge. Found out that I had great instincts on my reaction to the discovery and have been doing just about everthing right since then, including the initial confrontation. She claims the other man meant nothing (not someone she met through work or friends, just someone from the bar one night), and she has agreed to no contact.

Unfortunately, I also found out that I have been doing everthing wrong in the last however many years as far as meeting emotional needs and that here "love bank" account was so far in the red that it makes me cringe. Affair or not, she has definitely fallen out of love with me and is not sure we can ever recapture it.

I've told her that it is possible if we both work together and that Dr. Harley provides a great roadmap to get there. She seems receptive, but hasn't given me the reassurance that she is "all in" yet. Regardless, I am all in with or without her.

One question in planning how to go forward. There is talk of plan A and plan B. If it comes to plan B, how do I get her out of the house? I'm damn sure not leaving and I'm sure she will insist the same. How would I persuade her to leave?

Well, your best chance is a phone call away.

You know what I mean since you'e been reading/lurking.

And, I do mean YOUR BEST CHANCE.

Make the call today, with or without her.
Don't waste time.

I'm dense, you'll have to elaborate further.

LINK

Thanks, I've been perusing this website for a couple of days now and somehow skipped reading about that service. Definitely worth considering, but would also go along with being "all in". My next step is to bring home the books and read them cover to cover and hope she does the same.

Kind of ironic, in that she brough home "The five languages of love" last year for us both to read and I totally blew her off. Told you I was dense.

Look, you wrote:

Quote

She seems receptive

This is a golden opportunity to show how much you have changed and show your willingness to take a leadership role in re-building a marriage where you both get your needs met.

Not calling, is a waste of an opportunity.

This is not the time for passive wishing & hoping.

No, I do not work for them.

Bumping this back to the top...

I was hoping we were different. Hoping that after the initial confrontation on D-day (1 week ago), that no contact was agreed to.

Well, I know she's no different now. Several cell phone contacts on Thursday night. Had a heart to heart on Friday afternoon where I told her everything I was willing to do, and the converstation was going well. She reaffirmed the NC agreement, along with mutual enthusiastic agreement and total honesty. Then I told her I know she broke the NC, and it was then that I required the NC letter. To this she hesitated, and said she didn't know if she could do that. I held fast, and told her that this was the one thing that was non-negotiable.

The side bar is that I have a work trip to Puerto Rico next month and the whole family was going along (2 kids under 10). I informed her that I was pulling the plug on PR if I did not see her send the NC letter. This really upset her and the rest of the afternoon was pretty quiet.

Should I stick to my guns on the PR trip? How can I continue plan A if there is no NC letter?

The one thing I haven't done is exposure. Since she agreed to NC on D-day, I though that maybe I could spare us both this step. If I have to pull the plug on Puerto Rico, then the big Exposure is going to happen, including the kids. Is this a good plan?

This sucks, and the amount of traffic this board gets sucks too. I'm all alone right now and its tough to hear your soulmate say they don't love you anymore.

You are where you are because you have not exposed.

schtoop, sorry you are here. I wouldn't push the nc letter, because it is meaningless unless she is willing to end contact.

Who is the OM and is he married?

Schoopt

Did you act on this??





nesre

No, I have not called the number.

I have showed her this website, the books are in the mail and should be here Mon. or Tues.

She agreed to get counseling on D-day, but hasn't followed through yet. I am exploring couples counselers in town that are covered by our HMO. Sorry, but as much as I respect Dr. Harley and what he advocates, I think face-to-face has its advantages and getting her there is the first step.

Exposure will happen sooner than later if I can't get a NC agreement.

Schtoop

Please read the link b/c there are a wide variety of methods that are used, and some not so good for the M.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html


Nesre

schtoop, I would NOT send her here until the affair is really ended. You will lose this place as a resource. Your first order of business will be to kill this affair. There will be no recovery until that happens. Ending the affair is the equivalent of getting the alcoholic to put down the drink. It is the critical first step. And it is your job to kill this affair by causing as much trouble as possible. Most OM do not want trouble and will run at the first sign of conflict.

Who is the OM? Is he married?

Secondly, marriage counseling has an 84% FAILURE rate and causes more problems than it can solve. We have had people come here whose "counselor" told them there was nothing wrong with having "friends" [affairs] or that a "separation" was in order. The problem with traditional marriage counseling is that they are not pro-marriage and don't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage. The Harleys differ in that they actually know how to save marriages and their plan works. Whereas, if you follow the plan of your typical marriage counselor, you will usually end up divorced. Marriage counselors have a higher divorce rate than the general population. Dr Harley speaks about this in this newsletter and in this article How Dr Harley learned to save marriages .

Just wanted to point out that you already obtained such agreement. A wayward will usually "agree" to end contact but then go further underground. That is what is happening in your situation.

Who is the OM and is he married?

Dr Harley on exposure: Exposure

A couple things, I sent her to the MB home page, not the forums. She hasn't followed up much. Like I said, the books are in the mail.

MB is something I would love for us to do together.

I did a quick people search on the OM, but didn't find much other than a name and address (low rent). In talking with my wife, she first claimed that HE didn't know she was married, to which I immediately called B.S. Yesterday she admitted he knew she was married. From what I can gather he's likely divorced.

Back to my most pressing question, am I being too hardlined to pull the plug on the family trip if I don't get a NC agreement?

She has probably lied to him about her marital status and he has lied to her about his. Cheaters always lie. If oyu have his name, you can look him up in anywho.com and get his home # and call there and see if a woman answers. [disguise your # using *67 so he cant see your caller ID] If she does, you could tell her about the affair. Do you know where he lives?

You might also try intelius.com to see if a womans name comes up with his.

schtoop, if you determine that he is not married, I would then call him up and ask him to meet with you so you can put a stop to this affair.

Like I said, she admitted yesterday that he knows she is married so he likely knew all along.

A phone call or visit from me is something I find most distasteful, and I can see them both getting a big laugh out of it. I'll assume he is trash and just act accordingly. My stuggle is with her heart/mind, I don't care to try to influence his.

I agree it is distasteful, however, it is often very effective in ending an affair. You are in a distasteful situation and often it takes such actions to kill an affair. OM do not want trouble and when you contact him every time he is in contact, he will probably end the affair himself.


Your struggle is with the AFFAIR. The affair is a threat to your marriage and your family. And until you kill the affair, it will affect the heart and mind of your wife and endanger your marriage. You should view the affair the same as you would a pint of whiskey in relation to an alcoholic. You will have no influence over the alcoholic until he puts down the drink. Similarly, you will have no chance until the affair is killed.

As far as her telling him she is married, her word is meaningless. And if she did tell him this, it was probably with some spin. Even so, it is always a good idea to speak to him yourself to make sure he has the true story and understands that you will not allow him to destroy your family without a fight. [not physical, of course]

schtoop, in case you weren't aware of it, MelodyLane is kind of like the "Godfather" (Godmother?) of MB. You can bet your @$$ if ML says it, it's the Gospel truth.

She doesn't choose everyone to assist, so by coming to your thread, she must think there's a chance you can make this work.

So now the ball's in your court. I warn you, if you let ML down, it won't be pretty...

Fred! I am just a poster like you and everyone else here! Thank you for your vote of confidence.

schtoop, I don't think that is the most strategic or effective way to end the affair. You can't use it as leverage anyway, because she will likely AGREE to end the affair, but then not do it. Taking her to PR, on the other hand, is a good chance to interfere with the affair and make some great lovebank deposits. [the OM can't take her to PR, but you can] That would interfere with the affair and work in your favor.

In fact, this trip would be a GREAT opportunity to relaunch the romance in your marriage if you could leave your kids at home.

There are much more effective ways to kill the affair, and that is via exposure and confrontation of the OM. Exposure is your most effective tool and it is what Dr Harley calls the "start of recovery."

Thanks a ton, Melody and all.

This has been a tremendous support when I have really no where else to turn. Until I expose, there is literally no one there for me, while she has a couple good friends who know and have even been empowering the affair for her to rely on.

Good advice on the trip, I was doubting myself, but didn't want to cave. Maybe it will be taken as a show of good will.

One thing I do know, I am one of the most easy going people you will ever find and have handled this whole thing with the utmost grace and restraint to this point. BUT, I am not going to facility this affair!!

I am so sorry that you find yourself here, Schtoop. You are getting excellent advice from some of the best MB has to offer. I am far from an expert but I will just add to believe nothing your wife says only her actions and "easy going" spells doormat in affair land.

God's Blessings,

Say

ugh! Any "friend" who enables a friend to have an affair is no "friend." They are enemies of your marriage and will likely hamper the recovery of your marriage. yuck..


Good man! Believe me, there is nothing graceful or dignified about standing by idly while your marriage and family is under assualt from an affair, so I am glad to hear you have made a decision to not facilitate the affair. You have alot to lose if you don't stand up for your family and protect it against this assault. There are ways to do this in a dignified, strategic way that can effectively kill the affair and save your marriage.

In your situation, I would watch and see if contact resumes and make plans to take the trip to PR. I would strongly recommend that you do call the OM's house NOW to see if he has a wife, and if so, expose to her. That should happen regardless of the status of the affair. It is very common for the OM to be married and many affairs are killed dead on the spot by exposing to his wife. His wife has to know about the affair and with 2 ppl watching from both ends, the affair is less likely to resume.

It the affair does not die, I would suggest exposing it in a very strategic way. We can help you make up a list along with talking points. While it is a hard thing to do, it is the most effective tool at ending an affair I have ever seen. Exposure is also very therapeutic to the wayward in that it helps her view her affair in a more realistic light. The more people who know about her affair, the more people to hold her accountable. It is just a GREAT TOOL in every aspect. I would encourage you to read Dr Harley's newsletter on exposure.

Do you have effective spying tools? For example, do you have a keylogger [spectorpro.com, get eblaster] on her computer if she communicates via computer? What about placing GPS and a voice activated recorder on her car? If she has a blackberry type phone, you can install flexispy [flexispy.com] which has a GPS and will send you all text logs and her call logs. Can you have her watched by a PI?

Just checking in here so my thread doesn't fall too far into backpage death.

So far I haven't seen any contact for two days (D-day was 8 days ago). I backed off on pulling the plug on our trip, but said I still wanted to see a NC letter.

The only spying I've done is online viewing of cell phone activity (calls and texts). It's weird, I can figure out that conversation in one of the emotional needs I haven't been meeting, but all of their phone conversations are 1-2 minutes, never longer. What would this mean?

Anyway, and I'm glag Melody is giving a little leeway on this, an that I'm not going nuclear exposure just yet. I haven't really threatened her with it, just said that conventional wisdom dictated that was the next step. Her response was "do what you have to do", (I think she was calling my bluff). I then explained its not something I would do out of spite or something I want to do, just that the affair is the enemy and I'm going to fight it.

Bottom line, if she can find the fortitude to end the affair on her own just a week after D-day (I know, a snowball's chance), I think we can move on and save that painful step. After all, the purpose of exposure is to end it, and if that is accomplished then exposure might not be necessary. However, this is the last chance. One more discovery of contact and I WILL pull the trigger and go nuclear, including the kids.

I would not cancel the trip. You only punish the whole family. And you don't get the WW away from the OM.

""Melody is giving a little leeway on this, an that I'm not going nuclear exposure just yet. I haven't really threatened her with it, just said that conventional wisdom dictated that was the next step. Her response was "do what you have to do""

Never ever mention that you are going to expose.

If you do not expose you will of taught your WW that you have no stomach for the fight and she can still control you, and your words are empty threats. WW will now feel that there will never be consequences for doing the OM.

Now I bet you WW has been already doing damage control spinning her lies so people will not believe you. This is standard WW tactics. Those who tell their story first are more apt to believed.

No reason to cancel the vacation.

No reason to delay or not expose this A.

Every reason to expose now today ASAP.

Repeated for emphasis.

Exposure is the #1 weapon in your arsenal to kill an affair.

If you tell WS you're going to expose, she's going to beat you to the punch and tell everybody you've flipped your twinkie and not to listen to you.

And you will have wasted your opportunity and aided the affair.

Once again:


Never ever mention that you are going to expose.

schtoop, like Fred noted [go Fred!] please do not ever mention exposure or threaten exposure again. Such threats are a huge lovebuster and forewarned is forearmed. You will neutralize the greatest weapon you have by giving her a heads up.

The one exposure that SHOULD NOT WAIT, and is not contingent upon the status of the affair is to the OM's WIFE. You have to find out if he is married and expose to her no matter what. The sooner the better. More often than not, OM are married.

There are so many benefits to exposing to the OMW, if any, that I don't have time to list them. But, you cannot go by the word of liars about his marital status. You have to find out on your own and the quietly, WITH NO WARNING, expose the affair to her.

Please follow my advice and call the OM's house and see if a woman answers. Disguise your # using *67.

And just keep in mind, exposure is a GOOD THING. It is good for ALL, so if your kids need to be told, then tell them regardless of the state of the affair. If there is tension in the home, they do need to be told the truth. Giving them false explanations teaches them DISHIONESTY.

Have you read the Carrot and the Stick of Plan A yet?

Carrot & Stick

No offense but your posts describing how you have threatened your WW with the PR trip and then exposure shows a lack of understanding of LoveBusters. Furthermore, it is likely that by trying to "talk" your WW out of her affair, you will cause her to be defensive and push her further the other way...

I understand your comment about contacting OM seeming "distasteful" but frankly A's are nasty things that don't usually go away w/o a fight. My parents raised three very nice shy girls...and the three of us chased down my sister's OW, confronted her at a gas station, Jerry-Springer-style, and let her know we knew what she was up to and she needed to stop. She wouldn't go near my sister's H after that. Now that he is "de-fogged" he is thankful my sister did what she did...

How I wish there were more people like you and your sisters, SusieQ!

If you saw the picture of these 3 very lady like, elegant, poised ladies, you would know they are nothing like Jerry Springer types, not even close. But they are the type that will stand up for their marriages and defend them. The marriage in the above mentioned situation is in recovery and the affair is dead, dead, dead.

Thanks again for the replies and the advice. I have no where else to turn right now and you have been more help than you know. Just a few status updates:

1) I have the OM's name and address, but not much more. I'm pretty sure he's divorced, so right now I really don't know of anyone on his side to expose to. I have a home number for him and have dialed it a few times, but all I get is an answereing machine with the default computer greeting (no names, no voice). I will continue snooping and try to find out more info on him.

2) Threatening to cancel the Puerto Rico trip was going too far and my first big mistake in this process. I was trying to use it as a "stick" to get the NC letter. Yesterday I told her that I was wrong to threaten that and the trip is on and may do us some good. She agreed and said it would be good to get away from "everything going on here." I did say that I still expect some action (NC letter).

3) Still haven't seen any contact this past weekend. Sunday night is our usual day to grill out, share a nice dinner and have a bottle of wine together. Yesterday afternoon she asked if we could eat a little early so that she could "go to the gym" afterwards. I suggested she go now before dinner so that we could relax and talk some, to which she replied that she was tired right now and needed a nap, which is why she wanted to go after dinner (I know, red flag!). A little later I told her that I had really been looking forward to our Sunday dinner and a chance to relax and talk a little, just to talk and not go into anything heavy. She agreed and stayed home and we had a pretty nice dinner and movie night with the kids (kids started the movie while we hung out and talked). Don't know if she was really going to the gym, just wanted to get away for a while, or wanted to make contact, but I do feel I successfully intervened by providing a pleasant alternative.

4) Letting her know that exposure was on the table was likely another tactical error, but I'm not convinced of that yet. I have no problem blindsiding her to everyone else, but not when it comes to telling the kids (and if/when I go nuclear, they WILL be included). "Mutual Enthusiastic Agreement" is something we have agreed upon, especially when it comes to the kids. Telling them without her knowing that it is a possibility would be a colossal love buster and something I know in my heart is wrong.

5) Right now, I believe the only people who know are two of her best friends (one of which is single and the person she was going out with when she met the OM). So, she is unlikely to go to her family and friends first.

6) I am close to going nuclear and will likely do so with the very next discovery of contact. But, there is small (I know, more like infinitesimal) chance that she will end it on her own. I've got to take that chance right now, because exposure is like toothpaste, once it's out it can never be put back in the tube.

schtoop, the POJA [mutually enthusiastic agreement] should NEVER be used in situations like this. That is insane. The kids should not be told with her consent and involvement because forcing her to do such a thing would be an even bigger lovebuster. Her involvement almost ensures that the kids a) won't get the truth and b) they have to witness a fight. And for what? For absolutely no good reason. YOU should set the kids down without her knowledge, and give them the truth and give them moral guidance. Period. Don't make this harder for no good reason.

That would a tactical mistake that would only result in a big fight in front of your kids. That helps NO ONE. The wayward spouse is not acting in the best of your children and as such, should have no say or involvement in telling the kids. Things are hard enough without making things harder for no good reason.

POJA and the policy of radical honesty is for RECOVERY, not for situations where there is abuse or adultery. You don't implement the PEACE ACCORD while you are under fire on the field of battle, lest you end up dead.

Secondly, threatening exposure only tips off the WS to your plans and gives her an opportunity to pre-empt you. It also neutralizes the element of SURPRISE, which is a major element of exposure. In effect, threatening exposure does little more than give the affairees the layout of your battle plan and allows them greater latitude and ease with which to carry on the affair.

To put it bluntly, that is a stupid strategy, my friend. I have seen numerous exposures over the years completely neutralized by forewarning the affairees. They simply went to the exposure targets and spinned the story about your "insanely jealous imagination" so when you did call, your credibility was shot.

From Dr Harley's newsletter on Exposure:

entire article

And exposure is like chemotherapy to cancer. Once you expose the cancer the chemotherapy, you cannot take back the therapeutic effects. I am not understanding your reluctance to expose, schtoop.. Can you please explain why you fear this?

Do you really WANT to recover your marriage? Or is the goal here to avoid your wife's wrath at all costs? If it is the latter, you probably aren't going to make it, I will just be honest with you.

I found a quote from Dr Harley about the mis-use of the POJA and the PORH:

Not only does your WW need to cut it off w/ OM, she needs to cut it off w/ her clubbing friend. I would do even more intel on OM. I don't care if you THINK he is divorced, make sure you KNOW it. Also, I would expose to his family, ex, etc. If the OM knows that you aren't going to take this, he might duck and run. Your WW might not be worth the hassle anymore.

Again, thanks for your patience with me. I know it's frustrating to no end to give newbies sound advice and what's been proven over and over, just to have them disregard it. Just to clarify a couple of things:

I'm with you on the kids, it was never my intention to have her present when I tell them. However, you cannot convince me that blindsiding her with the kids is right, either. Giving her one chance to end things on her own before turning the kids lives upside down feels right, also.

What am I scared about with exposure??? About a million different things: Further alienating her, the pity and shame I'd feel from all our friends and neighbors, turning the kids lives upside down, blowing a chance to show understanding in a time of great need, myself getting too wrapped up in revenge rather than tyring to meet her emotional needs, etc., etc. I know these appear as excuses, but that's where I'm at right now.

I am preparing myself to take that step and I will with the next contact. I am not trying to avoid her wrath nor will I stand by and be a facilitator. I'm just not going to take that step until I am 100% convinced it is necessary. Right now I'm at about 90%.

Side note (and not to criticize, believe me), but the tone of this message board is much more militant about some issues, especially exposure, than any of Dr. Harley's writings. I know, I have read the newsletter you posted a link to about a dozen times, but much of his writings have a more gentle tone.

schtoop, for what it's worth, I had all of those same worries and fears when I first came here. But folks like MelodyLane and others made me see one fact:

NOTHING I COULD DO WOULD MAKE THE SITUATION WORSE.

Think about it.

*t/j Thanks Fred & ML

It sounds like what you are saying here is that you are holding exposure over your WW's head as leverage, is that right? Oh dear. This is not the purpose of exposure and your WW is probably thinking of ways right now to have contact undetected...

What you are proposing is blackmail, schtoop, and that is a huge lovebuster. Your kids need to be told the truth because it is best for all concerned, not because you believe it should be used as a tactic to manipulate her. It is in your childrens best interest to be told the truth since this affects their family too. It is adultery and LIES that harm children, not telling them the truth. Lying to them about the source of the trouble in their family is morally confusing and teaches them dishonesty.


Would you use this logic if faced with taking the car keys away from a drunk driver? In the hopes that letting the drunk keep the keys would somehow ENDEAR her to you? Because that is what you are doing here.

These are all ways to enable the affair, at the expense of your marriage. The affair is currently alienating you from your wife, and is the biggest threat to your marriage. You will continue to be alienated if you don't stop the affair. You should show "understanding" in productive ways that exclude ENABLING her affair. That is not compassion and it is not helpful. Your W and your children need you to stand up for them, not to enable the destruction of their family by keeping secrets.

Enabling her by helping her hide her secret will do nothing other than FUEL the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping it a secret works against you, not for you.


I will leave you to more gentle posters. Gentle is not my style. We are all posters just like you, who have careers and families but take time out of our day trying to help others save their marriages as we have. Take what you need and leave the rest.

schtoop, I think you misunderstand the reason for exposing your WWs A. It is not intended to get revenge, as you seem to think. And it is 100% necessary. Exposure is used to KILL the A. Isn't that what you want? You sound like a nice guy - but you need to draw the line at being nice and allowing your WWs A to continue.

Look: she has demonstrated that she is capable of having an A. She has demonstrated that she doesn't want to end the A (by refusing to write the NC letter.) She has demonstrated that she will lie to you and sneak behind your back to contact OM. Why are you still hedging at 90%?

My FWH didn't want to hurt OWs feelings, wished he could go back in time and make different choices, didn't know how to end the A, all that. You know what ended it? EXPOSURE. And do you know what his says these days, when we talk about it? He thanks God the OWH exposed them to their employer. How's that, schtoop? My H almost lost his job and has to live daily with the humiliating knowledge that his wife and employer got to see all the physical notes, emails, etc, with him declaring his undying love, that they were going to run off into the sunset together, he was her prince and she was his princess . How embarrassing, yes? And he's still thankful OWH did it.

To borrow the phrase that's used here a lot: Your marriage can withstand your WW's anger. What it cannot withstand is an affair.

Some of us may sound a little militant at times - it's not intended to be a bullying tactic, so don't be confused about that. We're the survivors. We've lived it. We're passionate in our responses because we know what works. Dr. H has not survived an A, so he's a little more neutral and can report what works in a less impassioned way.

schtoop,

It is my opinion that Dr. Harley is pretty matter-of-fact in his writings...Here a few examples:

Dr. Harley on telling children:


Link~~~> HERE



Link~~~> HERE


Link~~~> HERE


Link~~~> HERE

Hope this helps...

Mrs. W

**edit**

Schtoop, on this exposure thing, since the "militant" (and very sage, I might add) BSs here have only gotten you to about 90%, lemme see if a former, recent wayward can get you to jump:

I knew my affair was wrong. When I was deep in it, I'd spend commute-time on the subway, alone, each morning & evening, wondering what the heck I'd gotten myself into, and telling myself I needed to quit, this isn't who I am, this isn't the kind of man I want to be, etc. Once, I even tried to break it off, before it went all the way to a physical affair, but I didn't make it stick. I'd get to the office and there'd be a sweet voice-mail for me from OW, an endearment, a compliment, a suggestion that we talk or meet, and all that stuff was meeting emotional needs of mine, and I was back to being about the most spineless, useless excuse for a man you'd ever have wanted to meet. I rationalized, subconsciously and consciously. As long as it was a secret, then I could have my cake & eat it too, and there'd be no adverse blowback for me. And so I let it go on. As fantasy-worlds go, it hadn't gotten to the point of being intolerable for me.

The tipping-point that made it intolerable for me was that I got partially exposed when my OW's husband (who'd been suspicious of her on account of her behavior during her affair with me & also a previous affair she'd been having with another guy before me) finally snooped on her and found her out. Once OW told me this, then I knew I was in a position where my affair could no longer coexist with my marriage (because it was inevitable that my wife would learn about it from OW's husband if I didn't confess first). And I knew my wife wouldn't tolerate my affair. So only then did I muster the minimal decency needed for me to end it, and confess to my wife, and start the road back. Today I look back on that exposure by OW's husband as one of the weirdest, best gifts God has ever dropped on my head.

Schtoop, people who have affairs are already aliens. Exposure isn't a guarantee, but it gives you at least a better chance to reel them back into the real universe.

They'll pity you plenty if your marriage falls apart because your wife continues or resumes the affair.

What do you think a divorce might do to their lives...?

Replace "understanding" with "strength" in this phrase.

Clinically-speaking, the purpose of exposure isn't revenge, it's to make continuation or resumption of an affair less palatable to an affairee. Many folks apparently don't appreciate that, and so it might look like "revenge" to them. That's because they don't understand the science. So? Why should you care what they think?

Meeting her needs won't work as well if she's still in an affair, because her affair-partner will be meeting her needs, and for you, it'll be like trying to pour water into a glass that's already pretty-full: You might get some of your own water into the glass, but a lot of what you pour will likey be spilled.

Take some time to mull it over. You're hoping the next contact won't come. I understand you want to be able to say you tried to give her the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure that's how my OW's husband felt about her at one point, too. Unfortunately, though, affairs have patterns, and they're not nice ones. Here's hoping your wife's bucks the trend, but as is often said around here, "hope" isn't a plan.

Link to UVA's War room ...which was written to another BH.


READ THIS LINK

which is found on my Notable Posts thread...

Good post, Gloveoil, and I am listening. Same to Pepper and Melody.

Like I said, I'm 90% convinced and that number is growing.

Mrs. Wondering - you don't have to convince me to tell the kids, they will be high on the list of who to tell.

Marital bliss, thanks for sharing your experience.

SuzieQ and Melody - I am not holding exposure over her head like blackmail. My exact words to here were that

"...convetional wisdom says that I should let people around us know, including the kids. I have not done that, yet."

That was the only time I've mentioned it. I now know it was the wrong thing to do, but I don't think she views it as threat and hasn't made any counter moves.

One more question, since I'm probably not making the best decisions right now.

All I know about the OM is his cell number, an address, a home phone, and that he is likely divorced.

I really have a growing urge to contact my wife's friend, one who she was going out drinking with when she met and had liasons with the OM. She may be able to give some insights into my wife's behavior and tell me something more about the OM. I think this woman would be frank with me, but there is also a lot of risk with going to her since she is my wife's friend.

Is it a totally absurd idea?

I dunno. I'd say that's a real crap shoot. Most GFs will be loyal to their buddy.

schtoop,

I am very new at this. Just like you, I hesitated about exposure in the beginning. I now realize that not exposing at the right time caused me a lot of grief. By not exposing, I ended up enabling the A since my FWW didn't face the consequences of her horrible actions when it matter the most.

Read the threads on this forum and you'll find that many of us, BS, have hesitated in the beginning with exposure. But once we do it, we get to understand its value as we see the A die.

Now there's no doubt in my mind that exposure is the best weapon against the A. If you don't use it, your WW will have a lot of difficulty achieving NC. She's an addict - you can't reason with her. Take action against the source of her addiction.

Your best chance is to follow the excellent advice the vets around here are giving you. So start making a good exposure plan ASAP.

She's going to be mad as he11 when you expose. But by the time you get to your trip to PR you'll have a chance to make it up to her. BTW, try to leave the kids behind in that trip.

The best way to expose is to do it to reveal the A to everybody pretty much at the same time to cause a tsunami of reality in her fantasy world. Regarding your question about your WWs friend, I think there's too much risk of her warning your WW or the OM if you start asking questions. You may want to contact this friend as part of you expose to everybody. At that point you can evaluate if she's going to help or not.

Regarding the OM, can you hire a PI to do the investigative legwork for you? Try to get info about his workplace, relatives and confirmation about his marital status.

You'd also try to snoop as much as possible. Install flexispy on her phone, use a VAR and install a keylogger on her computer.

I also concur that you'd try phone counseling with the Harleys. I wasted a lot of precious time and money with local MC. With the MB approach you'll cut to the chase when it comes to the A.

I can see why you may get defensive about the style of the advice that has been offered. But you don't want to be second guessing a tried and proven method. You want to go into this fight with a plan and execute. There too much on the line to try to improvise. You may not realize it yet but you're getting advice from some of the best resources available when it comes to overcoming an A. There's a sense of urgency in the way the MB vets are trying to help you. The reason is that time is of the essence in these situations. You don't want the window of opportunity to recover to close.

This is the time to stand up for your marriage my friend. You want to focus. Again, your priority is to start making your exposure plan NOW. Why don't you post a list of when, who and how you're going to expose.

--ElCamino72

Uh oh, I'm starting to get a really bad feeling with a new development.

I promise that I'm not some troll and I'm not a drama queen either that's just looking for attention. I am hurt, broken, and confused right now.

I have to find out more about the OM.

I looked over the last six months of her cell phone logs, and something just isn't adding up. Most of the contact occurs 1) of course when she's out with her "friends", or 2) around 6:00 when she usually goes to the gym or some other meeting/social outing. What's weird is that the phone conversations are never more than 1 or 2 minutes long. Lots of instances where it seems one phones the other, then the call is returned a minute or two later. Seems very inconsistent with an emotional affair, where I would expect lengthy conversations. There are also calls to her girlfriend (the enabler) interspersed at or near the time she calls the OM.

Which brings me to the OM. I did a reverse cell phone search to get a name, then a people search to get addresses and other info. The results were not very thorough, other than returning three of the last addresses. I went by what looked to be the latest address, and it was basically in run down quadraplex in a seedy part of town. I have no way of knowing how much, if any, of the returned info is accurate.

Then to my wife's behavior. She pretty much sleeps late whenever she can, then still has to nap a couple hours in the afternoon. She's had thyroid issues and takes medication for several years now and she blames the fatigue on her thyroid. But, she has become less and less interested in family activities.

If you're thinking what I'm thinking, my next step (besides finding out more about the OM) is to go over our bank records carefully. I haven't been paying attention closely, but I haven't seen any unexplained withdrawals or money drain. I will look more carefully now.

Am I being paranoid, or is there something larger to worry about than the affair?

schtoop,

Snoop and make sure OM is divorced. The OM in my situation convinced everyone he worked with -- and me in conversations we'd had before the A commenced -- that he was D'd.

After D-Day, I finally decided to make sure that it was true -- and it turned out he was still married. I talked to his wife, and the info she gave me put the final kibosh on things, and ended all WD feeling from my then-WW when she found out that he'd been gaslighting by describing her as a bunny-boiler.

Make sure, snoop, do research. Then expose.

I APOLOGIZE TO EVERYONE HERE, ESPECIALLY MELODY.

I hope you can still help me.

This is it, no more excuses, no more putting it off. Today is E-DAY (exposure)!

We are here at 9 days after D-day, so I hope I didn't waste too much time in making this move.

My wife went to the "gym" last night for two hours. This morning I did some snooping while she was in the shower and found a Pre-pay (disposable) cell phone. I didn't have time to go through her calls, but at this point I don't need to.

The plan: I'm going to pick the kids (boys ages 9 and 5)up from school and drive straight to her parents house which is about an hour away. I will speak to her parents first with the kids in another room, then I will bring them in and tell them in front of her parents. That way I will have someone to confirm that I didn't tell them "lies" or disparage their mother unfairly. Her parents are the kingpin in this exposure and I want to do it face-to-face. Then I will call her sister in another town and let her know and ask for her support.

Next on the list will be my 85 year old mother who also lives two hours away. Wish I could tell her face-to-face, but a phone call will have to suffice. I think I will leave it up to here to tell my brothers and sisters right now. My brother is divorced, but I don't think it was because of an affair. I will have lengthy conversations with him soon, but he generally doesn't offer very good advice in these situations.

When I get home I will tell her friends who live on our street.

Then I have identified 3-4 girl friends of hers that do not know and could be of some help.

Her best friend at church has recently moved away, so I don't know how to crack that nut quite yet.

Another vital person I want to talk to is her drinking buddy (single) and enabler, one of the few who know about the A. I know that she will be firmly on my wife's side and that everything I say will go right back to my wife, but I'm hoping I can squeeze out a little more info on the OM.

Pray for me, this will be one of the hardest days of my life (along with D-day).

schtoop, it sounds like a good plan. When you speak to these folks, just give them facts and ask for their support. Ask them to use their influence to persuade your wife to end her affair.

Did you get any more information about the OM? Can you try calling his house intermittedly to see if a woman answers?

DOES HE HAVE A FACEBOOK ACCOUNT?

p.s. pastors can sometimes be a great asset in these situations.

Schtoop,

Just realize that it is going to get worse before it gets better. The fallout from exposure usually lasts at least two weeks and consists of a ton of verbal abuse. It's all meant to hurt you as much as possible and punish you for ruining her affair. She'll stay stuff like, "I was going to stay married until you did this. Now I'm going to divorce you. You had no right to tell the kids. I hate you. I'm going to take the kids from you." Blah, blah, blah. Just because she says these things in the heat of the moment doesn't make them true. Most likely they are threats that will never happen, but she wants to scare you into taking back control. It's best at this time just to lay low and walk away from any argument for two weeks. Schedule lots of activities with the kids and just invite her along. If she doesn't want to go, leave her to stew at home. Eventually she'll calm back down and things will return to the way before exposure - except that her affair will be forever damaged.

I'm just letting you know what to expect so you can brace for it.

We're behind you 100%. You are in my thoughts.

schtoop, Jim is correct. She will be furious when you expose her and will make all manner of threats. Don't let it bother you a bit because it will blow over. Just don't allow her to bait you into a fight and don't bother trying to reason with her.

I would also strongly suggest paying a visit to the OM. Steve Harley has recommended doing this and we have had good results. The key question is to ask the OM what his intentions are for your wife and to let him know that there is no future for him with your wife. He would be eternally hated by your children and your inlaws. If you live in a fault state, I would also tell him that he would hauled into court to testify under oath about his adultery in any legal action.

The idea is to create as much conflict as possible in the affair.

Thanks, jmwc95. I know it will be hell.

When I was fighting it yesterday another poster asked why I was so scared of exposure? You pretty much summed up why.

Melody - thanks for not giving up on me.

The ball is rolling. I have a lunch meeting with her old boss and friend in just a little bit. She got laid off in mid-December and her story is that it was simply due to the slow economy and not enough work. I am going to get the real story from him in just a bit, as I now doubt anything she tells me.

Another twist, one of her best friends and a key enabler in this affair is the receptionist at the old job. I've told you how her phone conversations with the OM are always brief and followed by a phone call to this friend. I don't know if she's just sharing sordid details, of if there is something more going on?

Maybe her old boss can shed some light on the situation.

FYI - she has found a new good job and started last week.

Oh yeah...

I will try to make a call to the OM. However, I know very little about him and what I do know seems very sketchy. I have his cell number and a name that sounds maybe eastern European. The addresses that a people search revealed were low-rent in bad sides of town. People search also revealed a home phone number that I have tried a dozen times, but all I get is an answer machine with automated voice.

Maybe I can find out more from her friends now that I am exposing.

The ball is in motion.

Had an encouraging lunch meeting with her old boss who is/was a family friend. He said that her job performance hadn't really suffered, but he noticed the same anti-social behavior. He was getting the same treatment at work that I got at home (her withdrawing, building walls, blaming him for her problems, argumentativeness, etc.).
He was very supportive and may be someone I can lean on a little.

Next up, trip to her parents house with the kids. Have already called them and let them know that we need to talk, so they are expecting me. Agreed not to tell my wife, as I am sure they've noticed the same changes.

schtoop, now it will be important to tell your wife AFTERWARDS that they know. You understand that, right? Otherwise it is not exposure. She should know at the end of today that everyone knows. Hopefully, her parents will agree to have a talk with her. We have had many affairs here that were killed dead by parents either talking to their child and even calling up the OP.

Oh yeah, I'm on board with that.

I told her mom not tell her that I had called with such a serious tone. After we meet, I want her mom to have a heart to heart with my wife. That is the whole purpose.

One complicating factor, my wife will be driving back from a day work trip (alone) when the stuff hits the fan. I may ask her mom not to confront until tomorrow, as I don't want my wife getting all emotional while she's doing 80 mph on the freeway.

Ditto
My thoughts and prayers as well.

We are all pulling for you, schtoop.

Just checking in today, very tired from little sleep last night and still pulling the shrapnel from the "exposure" out of my rear.

I did not get to everyone on the list, but I got to enough to accomplish the purpose. Some of the reactions:

Her parents - they knew something was wrong between us, especially since D-day. Very supportive and of course want what's best for the grandkids. Also disapproved of all the going out to bars.

Her previous boss/family friend - We had a very nice lunch and he was supportive as well. Gave some insight into her demeanor at the workplace. However, this turned out to be the one that made my wife go nuclear. I knew there was some tension between them at the workplace, but she was incensed that I shared her personal information with this particular person. She claims that he is a backstabber and will use the information or hold it over her head for years to come. This was the real Lovebuster (I know, you can't think of it that way when exposing a wayward).

Her single friend and drinking partner - More supportive than I thought she'd be. Gave a little insight on my wife's relationship with the OM and also said she tried to discourage it.

The OM - This was the big surprise. Called his cell phone and after an awkward exchange he realized who I was and how much I knew. From then he was fairly forthcoming. When I asked him to cut things off with her he said "you've got it" and that he's done with her. Said he's been through it before (divorced) and knows where I'm coming from. Claimed she really wasn't his "type" and was too old, and that she's been pestering him a lot lately with all the phone calls.

Also shared an account of their last meeting at the bar (D-Day -1). I don't know whether they planned to meet there or if my wife just knew where he'd be, but he was trying to blow her off and made her cry. Her single friend then spent a good amount of time "up his azz" as he describes it. Accounts from the friend and even my wife tend to verify parts of the story.

Anyway, my call must have worked because he immediately called her back and broke things off. I'm sure this is also a big reason she went postal on me.

Did not call her sister - her parents are visiting this weekend and I'm sure the situation will be discussed.

Did not call my mom - She's 85 years old and its a conversation best had in person. Wife will not contact her or vice versa, so there is no rush here.

Did not tell the kids - My inlaws talked me out of it. Made a good point that if they need to know, we should tell them together. Otherwise, you risk turning them against one or the other of the parents.

Will post more on the wife's reaction in a little bit.

Great job on calling the OM!! It sounds like he was tired of the affair already and doesn't want the trouble, so if there is anymore contact, I would call him up again.

Does she know her parents have been told? Will they speak to her about the affair?

Not telling the kids is a huge mistake. This needs to be done NOW while she is already angry so you can get these exposures over with. Exposures should be done at the same time so you are dealing with ONE BIG explosion rather than several weak ones dribbled out over time.

I understand what your inlaws are getting at, but they don't understand the mentality of a wayward and don't understand what they are dealing with. [they don't know how to save marriages and are not psychologists either] Telling them "together" will greatly hamper your ability to tell the kids the truth [your wife will want to spin it and lie to them] and will only result in a family fight in front of the kids. None of that is in their best interest. It only makes an already hard situation much harder.

Was the solution to give them FALSE explanations about the source of the trouble in their family?

Rather, if they know the source of the problem in their family and are given moral guidance, they can better deal with the issues. And yes, the kids might very well turn against their mother. But that would be because of HER AFFAIR. Not because you told them. Some kids know right from wrong and may turn against a parent when they engage in wrong doing. That is a result of the AFFAIR and not a consequence that you should protect your WW from. Your wife has harmed your kids terribly with her affair and she will have to make it up to them.

Exposing to kids is a powerful motivator for a WW to stop her affair. When a WS has to face her children who know about her sleazy behavior, she will be much more inclined to end the affair. She has almost destroyed their family over her sleazy affair so being put in the position of having to explain to them is very therapeutic and will make her think twice before she does this again.

Lastly, if there are any more exposures to be done, I would get them done TODAY. Get them DONE so you can move on from this phase and start putting the pieces of your marriage back together. Don't drag this out, schtoop.

You did a great job yesterday, schtoop!! Please keep up the fire while you have them on the ropes!

Here is the strategy I would use for the next couple of days.

1. get your exposures done with TODAY: kids, sister in law, pastor and anyone else who is close to your WW

2. allow things to die down for a couple of days - don't react to your wife's fury over exposure

3. when things calm by this weekend, sit her down and tell her you love her and that you want to have a happy, romantic marriage. Tell her you are willing to stay and work on the marriage if she will commit to this plan. [the plan I describe is outlined in Surviving an Affair]

I think the PR trip is a great opportunity for you to re-bond with her. Can you leave the kids at home for that?

p.s. agree that you don't have to tell your own mother right now. That can wait.

I hear you on finishing the exposure today.

I cannot tell the kids at this point, its just too big of a risk, risk with inlaws, risk the kids themselves, huge risk with my wife.

I told her last night that I had planned on telling them, but her parents talked me out of it and I agreed not to do it alone. I asked her if we should do it now, and she suggested waiting until a more definite conclusion.

I've come to realize that one of the biggest stumbling blocks in our marriage is the issue of control. She is a control freak and resists mightily anytime she feels I am trying to "take over". The issue with the telling the kids is one battle I'm going to have to compromise on so as to not be deemed "controlling". She is already resisting MB because "I (schtoop) have it all figured out".

During the rest of the battle I will have to walk a very careful line between being proactive and involved, without crossing over into "controlling."

Can't leave the kids at home for PR, they have been told for weeks they are going and would be crushed. I know they have to sense that something is up with the two of us, but we've tried to keep it life as usual. There have been no questions or concerns showed by the kids, yet.

When we sit down with a counselor, I will get a second opinion on telling the kids. I know that everything you've been preaching here on MB is tried and true, and that other counselors may rely on flawed techniques that aren't as effective, and that the exposure needs to be done all at once, but this issue is just too touchy right now not to get another opinion on.

schtoop, your biggest risk is to NOT tell them. There is absolutely no benefit to lying to children. There is no "counselor" that can support the view that it is ok to lie to children. That is a stupid opinion that cannot be supported.

Any counselor who tells you it is ok to lie to children does not know what they are talking about. When kids are given false explanations about family turmoil, it teaches them dishonesty and causes moral confusion. It helps no one. There is absolutely no benefit to anything or anyone - OTHER THAN THE AFFAIR - in not telling them.

Things are "touchy" becuase your wife is angry that you interfered with her affair. You can't make your PLANS around her anger. That is a losing proposition. You will lose if you allow your WW's anger to be the deciding factor in your game plan. That is like handing the game plan over to a terrorist whose goal is to drive you into the Red Sea!

Keep in mind, that Dr Harley is not just some stooge on the internet. He is a world reknowned, credentialed, clinical psychologist who has specialized in putting marriages and families back together for 35 years. He is one of the leading experts on infidelity in this country. And the reason he has this stature is because he is successful where others ARE NOT.

If I were in your shoes, I would tell your wife tonight that you have changed your mind about telling the kids and will tell them now. She can go with you or not, it is her choice.


You are negotiating with a TERRORIST at your kids expense. EVERY WW screams that her husband is being "controlling" when he tries to interfere with her affair. That is the RULE, not the exception. If you allow that weak objection to stop you from doing what needs to be done to bust up this affair and protect your family, you won't have a marriage before too long.

"you are so controlling!" "you know it all!!" = FOGBABBLE

You cannot negotiate with a terrorist whose goal is to drive your family and your marriage into the RED SEA. Do you understand, schtoop?

I am sorry to be harsh with you, but you are making strategic mistakes for the SOLE PURPOSE of appeasing a TERRORIST. It is ok to try and appease her, but not at the expense of your children and your marriage. SHE GETS NO SAY IN THE PLAN TO KILL HER AFFAIR!

She is a WAYWARD wife who practices independent behavior and does not want you to defend yourself and your kids from her thoughtless, ABUSIVE, cruel behavior. She wants you to STOP interfering with her destructive behavior and stop protecting yourself.

I was the same way. When I was a drunk driver back in the 80's I used to accuse my husband of trying to "control" me when he tried to wrest the keys from my hand.

So who was the BAD GUY in that situation, schtoop? Me for trying to go drunk driving or my husband for trying to "control" me?

I agree with Mel. The kids should be told by you. Telling her boss was another one of the consequences to her EA.

Confirm that you are standing up for your marriage. Then change the subject.

On to the events of last night...,

My wife learned of the exposure on her way home from a work trip three hours away. The OM called her (and by all signs ended it) and she immediately called me and asked who I spoke with tonight. I calmly told her who all I talked to and what was said.

Like I said, she only went ballistic upon hearing I contacted her old boss who she apparently hates now.

From then she hung up on me and didn't return any of my calls. When she got home, she stormed straight back to the bedroom without a word and closed the door. I simply said that we have to talk sometime.

Fast forward to 3:00 a.m. and I'm awakened by my wife grabbing some papers and such from the computer work desk and taking them back to the bedroom. I give it a couple minutes before going in and asking what she is doing. She tells me she is going over the budget and seeing how we can split the income/expenses for me (schtoop) to move out. I then politely informed her that I will not be moving out. To that she replies that the kids are "her boys". Again, I calmly and politely tell her that she is free to stay here and I would like for her to so we can work on our marriage, but that I am NOT going anywhere.

I may have broken through a little at that point and we talked for the next two hours. I'll list some highlights, besides the usual "I fell out of love years ago," and "I don't think I can love you again.", and "How miserable she is when I'm around, how I stifle her."

1) Said she was working to end the affair on her own terms and come to a closure. I pointed out the broken NC and new cell phone and said that we can't go forward with this going on.

2) She also said that by me ending it for her, she would miss him all the more. I pointed out that's the very reason that 1) would have never worked.

3) That she was nearly ready to get on board with working on the marriage until I exposed, especially to the old boss. Now she doesn't think she wants to try. I again calmly said that she had given me neither words nor actions that pointed to this willingness.

4) Accused me of being "contolling" with the demands of NC and the other proactive steps I've been taking. I responded that our situation needed immediate action and that I couldn't wait for her to "decide" what she wants to do.

5) Ended the night with my wife putting away the financial stuff and showering for work. I got a very weak agreement to go to a counselor together if I set it up, but she doesn't think it will do much good.

6) Said she was glad it's out in the open now so she doesn't have to keep living the charade of our marriage andt hat she may tell the whole neighborhood tomorrow. I replied that was good, the whole purpose of bringing it out, and that the more who know just means more friends we can lean on for support.

I'll add more highlights as I think of them.

schtoop, you handled this very well! I can see you understand that this is all fogbabble. It is all meaningless babble that is no more relevant than the mumblings of a falling down drunk.

Everything she said here is CLASSIC fogbabble that we hear on the forum every day when a BS interferes with his WS' affair. The trick is to not allow her to bait you into a fight or take any of her babble seriously and it sounds like you did an excellent job of doing that.

schtoop, tell the kids, tell the kids, tell the kids, friend! They need to know FROM YOU before they hear it elsewhere. If you don't tell them the truth, she will tell them lies....about you probably. They know something is wrong and need to know the truth. This will burst her little fantasy much sooner when she has to explain why she was willing to destroy their family over..........nothing.

Well, then help her with her desire to have the neighbors know. Perhaps a sign in the front yard or a billboard will please her.
Pretty standard responses from her. Do your kids know?

Good job on exposing. I'm glad that OM seems to be backing off. That's going to improve your chances. Stay guarded though.

I also held off exposure to my DDs because I feared they wouldn't understand. My DDs are 5 and 6. Just as you say, I could tell that my kids knew something was up. You shouldn't underestimate their ability to sense that your marriage is in trouble. Make no mistake, they ARE aware that their protected environment is in danger. The thing is that they tend to think that it's their fault. You don't want that.

I made the terrible mistake of lying to my DDs about our situation. With your WW in withdrawal there is going to be conflict and they may witness some of it. When my DDs asked what was going on, I'd blow them off by just saying that mom and dad were working some problems out. That felt really bad. You don't want to teach your kids to pretend there's nothing happening on the face of adversity. As a result, my DDs started acting up like never before and there's no doubt that they were severely affected by the confusion of not knowing what was really going on.

You have the risk of being forced to expose under a situation out of your control. I had to tell them one day when my WW was acting a little crazy. I wasn't on my best behavior that day either. It was horrible. So I do suggest you expose to them under your terms in a controlled fashion. Consider that you may want to get the exposure phase over with ASAP so you can move on.

I understand why you want a second opinion about exposure to your kids. I've been there myself. Initially, it may go against our instincts as parents. If you want a second opinion I suggest you do counseling with a MB coach and a regular MC to see the difference.

I spent 3 months with a local MC. The MC was well intentioned but she didn't know what she was doing. The MC tried to go into our pasts/childhood when our problem at hand was the present A. There were many sessions together that further alienated my WW. I was wrongfully enjoying when the MC would go after my WW in my presence but it wasn't accomplishing my goals of recovering my marriage. My WW ended up giving up that MC. I attended the MB weekend and Dr. Harley said that whenever a MC does sessions with both spouses in the same room it means that they don't know what their doing. When he said that, my wife looked at me in approval.

When I first came to this forum a few months ago I was recommended by MelodyLane to coach with the Harleys. At the time I gave her several excuses why it wouldn't work for me. I still did it and I am extremely glad that I made the decision. Steve Harley is a professional and he's helped us tremendously with our situation. Highly recommended.

Stay strong and keep fighting to regain your marriage.

Best wishes

--ElCamino72

You need to tell the kids. You never should of given a heads up about doing so.

Bingo! Thanks for this post, El Camino, you said it much better than me. The Harleys NEVER counsel couples in crisis together, because it just causes more problems and they leave angrier than when they went in.

Traditional marriage counselors don't have the slightest idea what they are doing, which is evidenced by an 84% failure rate. If a doctor had an 84% failure rate, I sure wouldn't go to him for medical care. I don't know why a profession with such a dismal rate is trusted with such an immensely important thing: OUR MARRIAGES. That is like playing chicken with one of the most treasured and valued things in our lives.

ITA. With all due respect to your in-laws, they are misguided and don't know what they're talking about. They are trying to protect your kids from being hurt, and probably are trying to salvage the kids' thoughts about your WW. Don't let them try to take the reins. You're doing great so far. Don't drop the ball now.

Kids know that they are not capable of caring for themselves in this big world. They are sensitive to the environment that is supposed to be protecting them. They know something is wrong, schtoop. You won't be shocking them with this.

Don't let your WW spin this to them. Trust me, she will.

OK, I'm back.

I have thought long and hard, searched my soul, I have read and re-read Dr. Harley's material, I have read a ton of other material.

I am NOT telling the kids without my wife being present. Thank God I had the common sense to come to this conclusion. Telling them behind her back would have assuredly been the death blow to any chance of recovery. I know my wife, I know her temperment pre-affair.

The OVERWHELMING majority of psycologist agree with me on this (Both present when revealing marital problems to the kids). Almost every other bit of literature I've read agrees on this point. Everyone that I am counting on for support and who are on my side agree on this. It is the right thing to do for the kids.

You don't have to tell me the MB success rate. I have bought in.
It is a great path for recovering a marriage. But, it is not the only path, and it can be varied according to the situation. At some point we have to rely on our own judgement. Also, please show me where Dr. Harley states that the children should be told alone?

You say I need to do it alone because she will twist the situation and fill them with lies. Can I be relied upon to give them and unbiased account in my emotional state? Try as I may, that's likely not possible. Even if it were possible, that would not be the perception of anyone else involved in our situation and tremdous setback in my efforts. It would be viewed by all involved as using the kids as a weapon in the fight, something I will NEVER do.

My wife may be wayward right now, but she is also an intelligent and reasonable women who I still care greatly about and who still loves our kids. When they need to be told, we will come up with a stategy TOGETHER. That can happen now that the affair is in the open.

I will not argue anymore on this issue. If we can agree to disagree, I hope that you guys can continue to give me advice and support on this forum.

Take what you need and leave the rest.

Gather all the information I can from trusted sources, then make the best decision possible based on that information.

For almost three years I have observed on this forum as hurting people cherry picked what seemed to "fit" their unique A situation as they understood it, instead of follwing the MB program and listening to the people here who have walked the walk. Some came around in time, some just lived to regret it, others came back to tell how deviating from MB advice had cost them.

I include myself in with the group that thought that our circumstance was "different." It cost me months of unneccesary grief before I finally came around. I wish you luck.

God's Blessings,

Say

Thanks for your well wishes. I will continue to rely on this board for advice, encouragement, and support.

I am in full swing Plan A. I told that my wife that I will be doing everthing in my power to make a happy, loving home for her and the kids and that I will always be there for her. No more talks about our relationship, we both know where we stand.

Hi schtoop,

Your decision is respected and I'll see if I can TRY to avoid arguing too much in favor of exposure since that's your request.

Regarding your question of where does Dr. Harley said to tell the kids alone, I don't know if that's been explicitly said by him. If you want to tell your kids together with your WW then go for it. Just be aware that the situation may spin out of your control because WS are unpredictable. It's your call.

You probably don't want to delay the exposure to them for too long. They may be suffer with the confusion of your WW behavior if they don't know why mommy is so unhappy. Going back to exposure later on will also reopen wounds. Just so you know, your WW may try to delay exposure to them indefinitely.

I'm sure your wife is intelligent, reasonable and a very good mother. I feel the same about my wife. Something that's been hard to accept for me is that my WAYWARD wife doesn't have those qualities.

I think you'd be well advised if you coach with the Harleys. They'll to talk to your WW, assess your situation and recommend what's best for your specific situation. In my case, Steve Harley, recommended not exposing to certain people because it wasn't in our best interests. I can only say how beneficial it has been in my situation to have a professional (who's coached thousands of people in this type of crisis) listen to both sides and help with a plan.

Hang in there man.

--ElCamino72

Talk less -act more. And it will take her awhile to believe your actions!

That's where I'm at now. We've had 2 long talks about all the reasons we grew apart, how I make her feel stifled, and how she can't wait to get out of the house when I'm around (on D-day + 1 and on Exposure night).

I will not engage in that discussion again. If she wants to talk about going forward, I will listen until my ears fall off. But, she has no interest in that discussion right now and I'm not going to push it.

You are right. Plan A is all about actions right now and not talk. Just one problem, I believe that two of her biggest emotional needs are conversation and intimate touch (not sexual). She is not receptive to either right now, so I'll have to work by just avoing love busters and meeting the needs that I can.

Unless I'm recalling incorrectly, I believe the advice from Dr. Harley is that the children should be told of the affair. That's the first edict. As far as who should tell them...I can't recall if I've ever heard him say that the parents should NOT tell them together. I do recall reading his advice to AVOID having the wayward spouse tell them on his/her own because of the likely spin factor.

So if you are there, Schtoop, then it's probably a good plan. I think the advice to be on the lookout for her to try to spin things and push them out of control though, is good.

Dear schtoop,

I have not posted in your thread before but "both present revealing your marital problems to the kids" statement reminded me a little scene from my almost recent past.

In august 2008, when my WW had revealed that she was involved with OM we initially agreed that we should divorce because this was not her first OM.

I found the information that we should tell together the kids about divorce from infidelity.com.

So, we did tell kids together that we will be divorced. When my DD(then 11) asked why, my WW said something about that our love just came to an end or similar. OM was also mentioned.

When kids left to their rooms I remember being furious like what??? - we are getting divorced because you cheated not because "our love just ended".

What I am trying to say is that if you want that your kids will know what actually is happening in their lives and if you will tell that only if your WW agrees then your kids will never know the truth.

schtoop, it is absolutely your right to talk to the kids with your WW present. One thought - it might be a good idea to brainstorm with your WW on exactly what each of you will say prior to talking to them. At least establish a loose script so both of you know what the other intends to say. You don't want to be in a situation where your WW blindsides you by suddenly spinning things. OTOH, it will give you both a chance to rehearse your wording so that you both come out feeling comfortable with the conversation. The main thing is that you both reassure the kids that they are your priority, will continue to be taken care of and are NOT the reason for the marital issues. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that, though.

Well, now you know. Just ignore fog babble. Her words are a product of little aliens in WW's head using her as a host to relay crazy messages to you. Those nasty aliens are now hard at work trying to make WW hang on to the impossible.

So avoid getting baited into relationship talk. That's just going to further infuriate your WW and prolong the withdrawal. In the beginning, I used to bend over backwards trying to talk some sense into my WW. You see, my wife is a very smart woman so I was trying to convince her of how wrong she was. It was really frustrating that not a single word would get through. We'd only make each other more miserable with every relationship conversation.

I wasn't until I came here (a couple of months after DDay) that I learned the lesson about not reasoning with a WS. Just think that whatever they say during withdrawal it's just noise coming out of their mouth.

Even conversations that may seem friendly in the beginning may take a sudden turn into WS nastiness road - so beware. That's why you don't want to engage in any emotionally loaded conversations for quite a while. Just change topic as soon as she tries to have any relationship talk. You'll be better off until she's ready to do it in a controlled fashion.

BTW, I think that somebody should invent a BS training collar. It'd send a electrical shock to the BS when trying to educate a WS I'd have found such gadget very useful cause it is really hard for me to resist counter arguing fog-babble with my WS.

--ElCamino72

Good morning and a few thoughts of the day.

Yesterday was a better day. We both went about our days, interacted with the kids as normal, and even shared a little conversation about day-to-day issues with my wife. I went to bed first last night and noticed that she joined me in the early morning hours. However, she didn't end up staying long so I don't know what any of this means. She suffers from insomnia, so I won't read anything into any of it.

I have set up an appointment with a highly recommended counselor next week and she agreed to go.

"His Needs, Her Needs" and "Surviving an Affair" arrived in the mail yesterday. I was reading HNHN when she got home from a church meeting last night and have left it out on our end table. I'm not hiding "Surviving", but I'm not going to flaunt it or force it to her right now.

There has been very little activity on her cell phone since exposure. I don't know if she may be afraid to talk to anyone, or is using her disposable knowing that I am watching.

Speaking of cell phones, the sight of it makes me sick. I discovered the A by looking at calling and messaging history on her phone and tracked the A by looking at cell phone logs. Most of the contacts and interaction were by cell phone. Talk about the trigger that keeps on giving, I cringe everytime I hear the damn thing ring or beep.


That will certainly be the plan.

It's full speed plan A right now. I'm not in the position right now to meet many of her emotional needs, but will try hard on the ones that she allows. I can certainly work hard on avoiding love busters, including bad habits. The biggest is drinking beer, which I have done daily for nearly all of our married life. Not to excess (like being drunk or neglecting the kids, usually 2 or 3 over the course of an evening, more on weekends), but very persistent. I put it down for a couple of months last year, but then fell back into it. My inlaws stated that they didn't see it as big problem, but I know it has played a large role in us drifting apart. Drinking beer and watching football, tuning her out is NOT meeting EN's!

I have not had a drop since the day after D-day, nor will I ever again.

The single biggest source of unmet Emotional Needs and love busters is domestic housework, and not like you think. I could write pages on this problem, but will try to be brief here. I do the lion's share and have since the birth of our first child or even sooner. I was thinking this was a great way to meet her EN's. Instead, I've figured out that this item is not high at all on her list. I would get frustrated when it wouldn't work and even more frustrated that she would actually sabotage my efforts to keep a neat house. This turned out to be our biggest trigger to arguements, especially when I would try to force her to help our or at least not hinder me, it would turn into a huge Love Buster. Now even the sight of me doing housework automatically triggers love bank withdrawals.

I will work hard to change that. I will still do my best around the house, but not even mention needing help from my wife. I will try to clean when she's not around, and leave her areas (her laundry, bedroom, pile of mail on our dining room table) completely alone.

Oh yeah, one last thought, and this one is a doozy.

I came to a little bit of peace yesterday. I am not SCARED of divorce anymore. When I first found out about the affair and realized it was a strong possibility, it frightened the hell out of me.

I don't want D, I would hate for it to happen, hate what it would do to the kids, hate to not have my wife and best friend with me anymore, but I am not scared.

I am making positive changes in my life and will come out of this a better man, better father, and better husband (either to her or beyond). I hope she is with me to see that, but will be fine if she isn't.

Well done. You've faced the worst demon and have realized that it can't kill you. That's empowering. Empowerment is an impressive thing to feel, and your WW should see that difference. Whether or not she cares is up to her, of course. But it IS good for you.

Just checking back in after a rollercoaster weekend.

I started to detail all the ups and downs, but that's just boring details at this point.

There were some encouraging moments, but a lot to get me down, also.

Major downers:

Hearing from my mother-in-law that she doesn't see a lot of hope for the marriage after talking with the WW. I tried to explain about fogbabble, but realized it was pointless. Still hurts to know the wife thinks that way.

Wife being out until 3:30 A.M. Saturday night. She went to a "passion party" with a bunch of friends and then had to take someone home to the other side of town is why she was so late (according to WW). I know, major red flags, but I can't prove otherwise. I know where she keeps her second cell phone and it didn't show contact since the OM broke it off with her. Even if her whereabouts were legit, it still shows a tremendous lack of consideration and respect for me at this point.

Sunday was more of her withdrawn personality (which has been evident since even before the start of the A). Wouldn't get up to go to church with us, complained of headaches when we got back and stayed in bed until 1:00.

I take the kids to a Superbowl party while she has a couple friends over to our house for an "anti-football" party. One of them is her bar buddy, who knew about the A and was her cover for going out in the past. This friend says she disapproved and was not facilitating, but it was still a major trigger to see her in my house. Chalk up another point to lack of sensitivity.

Right now things still point to the A being over. There has been no contact that I know of since I called the OM and he broke things off with her. I'm hoping and thinking he was pretty blunt with her, didn't care for her that much in the first place, and that most of this was her fantasy.

The affair isn't what hurts so much at this point.

What hurts is hearing how awful I was and how bad this marriage was anyway.

What hurts is not the forgiving, it's that she doesn't even care enough to ask for it.

What hurts no desire on her part to even try.

What hurts is no matter how much I try or how successful I am in changing, I'm afraid it will be seen as too little too late.

What hurts is the utter lack of of consideration, sensitivity, and respect that has been shown through this whole ordeal.

Plan A is really tough under these circumstances, but I'm not thowing in the towel. There were a couple encouraging moments during the weekend, also. I just hope she can come out of the fog and withdrawal.

Patience, young Jedi. Just keep up your plan A changes, make sure there is NC w/ OM or there aren't any new OM, and after several months (I know, I said months, that sucks), you'll probably start to see some improvement.

Morning update:

Rough night last night.

Today we have an appointment that I set up with a counselor who comes highly recommended. I have actually been looking forward to this opportunity. Yesterday my wife finally showed enough interest to ask who we were seeing. I told her his name and that he came highly recommended, and of course her next question was "by who?".

For a little background, one of the people I had a long talk with last week (during exposure) was her old supervisor (she got laid off in December) who was also a friend of ours. Of all the people I exposed to, this was the one that really set her off. She claims that he is no longer a friend and is a backstabbing opportunists. She has not talked to him since being laid off. She now thinks that the news of her A will now be all over the professional community.

Well, the guy (old friend) was actually very helpful and did shed some light on her situation and demeanor at work. Also, the receptionist at her old job is a good friend of hers and knew about the A. I feel this lady was an enabler and encouraged the affair. Phone records show that after nearly every conversation with the OM, my wife immediately called this friend afterwards.

Anyway, her old boss put me in touch with a higher ranking man at her old job who very active in his church and works with their marriage recovery ministry. This guy was very supportive and was the one who recommended the counselor.

Upon hearing who recommended the counselor my wife went ballistic again. Claims that I was just "getting even" by spreading her personal life all over the workplace. She also balked at the idea of a Christian counselor, which surprises me. My wife has always been stronger in her faith than me and is very involved in our church.

I tried to hold my tounge through all of this and I never got angry or raised my voice. But, I did point out that it was her that brought it into the workplace through her conspiracy with the receptionist, and that she risked this knowledge coming out everytime she was out in public with the OM. I also calmly told her that this receptionist is no friend of mine and no friend of the marriage.

So now we're going to this appointment today with a poisoned attitude already. I don't anticipate much good coming out of it.

Schtoop,

Professional counselors are generally pretty good at disarming contentious attitudes. Just make sure you take a good attitude with you.

I dealt with the GF issue. GF was the only one outside the A that knew about it. It disturbed my W that I felt that way about someone we had known for 20 years. GF was invited over so we could talk about the way I felt. Unfortunately, I probably got a little graphic about what her silence allowed FWW to engage in. It ended exactly with your thought. I told her someone that was not a friend of the marriage was not a person that I wanted as a friend for my wife.

Well, she was already going in with a "poisoned" attitude regardless of who recommended the MC. She's still very deep in the fog so her wayward mentality is gonna go there kicking and screaming. A good MC should be able to find a way to convince her.

Just make sure that your MC concentrates in the A and its present consequences right off the bat. At this point you don't want the MC to turn into a search for your problems of childhood. Also watch out for any sessions together since that may further alienate your WW. The reason I'm saying this is because I spent 3 months with a well meaning MC that didn't really help.

Let us know how the session went.

Stay strong.

--ElCamino72

Thanks, El Camino.

I think the reality that we're going to do this (go to counseling) is finally setting in for my WW. Last night she finally asked who we were seeing that led to the big blow-up I described above.

Now, just this afternoon she emails me about the cost and if it's covered by our HMO. I responded with the cost, and said if we're not comfortable with this guy we can look for someone else under our HMO. I also wrote that I didn't want our HMO to limit us from seeing the best.

When I spoke on the phone, this couselor said that he likes to meet us together for the first session to get to know us a little, then the next two sessions we will be meeting individually. So at least he has the right approach there.

I hope he asks if we've been reading anything on our own so that I can bring up Marriage Builders. I don't want to appear as if it's something I'm forcing on my wife (the control issue again), and it will if I suggest it first.

Good morning, all.

I'm going to continue to post on this thread because it's kind of turned into a journal or log of my experiences and feelings since D-day and has been theraputic.

I realize that some of the "elders" here have stopped responding to me, likely because I haven't followed their advice to the letter. I'm OK with that, I just hope I can get a little support from some others on this board and their shared experiences.

That being said, yesterday was a good day and I'm trying my best not to read too much into it or get overly optimistic. But, there were several breakthroughs that may just be turning points.

We had our first meeting with a counselor yesterday and it went well. I think it is someone who can help us. The Marriage Builders plan is still important, but I think this guy can get us to a point that my wife will be receptive to MB. She is definitely not there yet.

When asked by the counselor why she was there, she did answer "to try and save the marriage". That was the first time I've heard her say that she would try. Of course, she also stated her reservations about ever falling back in love.

While this counselor is a strong Christian and was recommended by a man very involved in marriage recovery ministry at his church, he did not bring religion into our session at all. This is the right approach for us right now for details I won't get into and was one of my wifes big reservations about seeing this particular counselor.

Some other positive turns:

I am fairly certain that there has been no contact since I found her disposable cell phone, exposed, and called the OM. The call to the OM was what really ended it, I get the feeling more and more that she was starting to pester him and that he might have been pretty blunt and hurtful when he let her go.

I haven't seen a lot of phone calls to her girl friend, the one who was her conspirator in all of this and who she would always rush to call with sordid little details of her encounters or conversations with the OM.

She has been around the house much more and is making an effort to re-engage in our kid's lives.

I know the fog hasn't begun to lift quite yet, but I may have seen the faintest outline of the sun trying to peak through.

So now she may be getting to a place where plan "A" may start having an effect. Up until now, there her love bank's doors were shut tight and there was no way to make deposits. As you all know, it's extremely difficult to live a cheery plan A when you know it's doing no good. I will be far more motivated now to meet her EN's knowing that she has opened the door just a crack. Time will tell if that crack is real or if it was just an aberation.

We leave with the kids for Puerto Rico on Friday afternoon. This will be a great opportunity to "plan A" at full speed.

Quick question, and I hope someone can help me here.

What do I do about two girlfriends of my wife that 1) knew about and enabled the affair, and 2) Gets only her twisted side of the story and hears only what kind of schmuck I am and 3) Give her advice that is not supportive of our marriage.

I cannot "forbid" her from seeing or talking to these friends. Yet, I have read some emails back and forth and it makes my blood boil. I have already told my wife that one of the friends was "no friend of mine and no friend of our marriage".

My common sense tells me to hold firm in plan "A" and hope that she'll see who really has her and the family's best interest in mind, but these guys are undermining me big time.

NC w/ OM is the key. As long as that is in place and you are doing a good plan A, you wife will eventually want to recover the marriage. When she does, you can address these issues under the POJA. Patience, you'll get there.

Don't do anything about them right now. First, because there's no way you'll look like anything but a bad guy for 'interfering' in her friendships. Second, because you can't make her end those friendships. These two things alone are your stoppers.

Finally, the day will hopefully come when your WW's fog is gone and she looks back on her actions with shame and remorse. At that point she may elect to end those friendships on her own, because they remind her of a bad time.

If these friends are still around when she's completely on board with R, you can try to discuss ending the friendship as a POJA - as part of protecting your M by removing anyone who isn't pro-marriage. YOUR marriage.

I asked FWH to end a friendship with a guy who knew a little bit about the A. This guy had looked down the wrong end of an angry H's gun barrel before, himself. And he didn't counsel my H to end the A. That's all it took for me to determine that he wasn't a friend of our M, nor a friend of H's, really - the guy had personal experience on what it was like to have an angry BH coming after him. How could he not tell H to cut off the A??

Good advice from both of you!

Hey schtoop,

I am from PR. I'll be happy to help with any questions you may have about the island

Plan A at full speed is the right attitude. I'm sure it will be a good opportunity to deposit LUs. Hope you have a great trip here.

--ElCamino72

OK, I need help.

I'm sitting here in Puerto Rico and am in the worst spot yet.

I thought enough to bring Valentine's cards and a massage gift certificate from me and the kids for my wife, which we presented the morning of the 14th. Of course, she hadn't thought to reciprocate and hardly responded to my handwritten card and gift.

Then, I got ahold of her cell phone the next day only to find out she texted Valentines greetings to all her friends, including an electronic card to the OM. I couldn't find the exact text, but I did read another to her friend stating how happy she was that he responded and thanked her for the message.

I also saw evidence of more texts the next day to the OM. All this while we are on vacation with the kids, trying to reconnect, and I'm trying to plan "A" her. I swear, I feel like just dragging us all to the airport and cutting this trip short.

I don't know whether to continue the vacation like nothing happened, when to confront her about it, or to just sit tight and build up evidence now and when we get home.

We have individual meetings with a MC next week. Maybe I'll sit tight until I talk with him.

Needless to say, this trip has ceased being fun.

Any thoughts or advice?

OOpsie.

I think her cell accidentally fell in the river today !



Oh Nooooooooooo !

OK, seriously ....


Get rid of the phone.

Just take it from her, saying ... "While we are on our family vacation, let's leave ALL OF THAT behind us."

Remove the battery, put the phone away.

It is OK to tell her you know she is sending messages to OM.
it is also OK for you to prevent it from happening some more.

Then, continue to plan A as best you can.
When you are back home, you can re-evaluate your plans.

TAKE THE PHONE AWAY.

WW:
Why did you do that?

You:
OM is not allowed on our family vacation.

WW:
Why are you so controlling?

You:
OM is not an invited guest on our family vacation.

WW:
Now I'm mad!

You:
Let's go to the beach.

Remove the SIM card and let her try and figure out why her cell phone doesn't work. When you get back it's time for round 2 of exposure.

Genius!

Dang you guys are smart.

Hi schtoop,

Really good advice here on how to handle the cell phone situation. Just state your truth and stay cool after it. Don't let her crazy actions sabotage your plan.

BTW, one great family activity here is snorkeling. Plus the added benefit of no cell phone signal. Oh BTW, cell phones tend to get wet and damaged on boat trips. Just make sure you don't leave it behind on the reefs

If you're near the west coast of the island (well everything is close by here) you can try:

Paradise Scuba and Snorkeling <- click here

They aren't a fancy/touristy outfit but you'll find them to be professional and they know the area very well. They'll teach the kids to do snorkeling in no time. Highly recommended (I am not affiliated to them but I am a regular customer).

Oh, sorry I didn't see you post yesterday. I've just enabled email messages from your thread to get any questions you may have ASAP.

Have a good one.

--ElCamino72

This is a good one.

Oh shoot honey, I hate how flaky cell phone communications can be on these third world islands. I guess we'll have to make do without communication with the civilized world for a little while. Well, that leave us with nothing else to do other than enjoy the beach and nice weather... What can I say?



--ElCamino72

Thanks, El Camino.

We've been here close to a week and have visited nearly all the island. Two days at El Conquistador, where we got in some snorkeling and of course their water park. We've seen the El Tonque rain forest.

The last two days I've had to work at the meeting that brought us here, but the wife and kids went exploring to the caverns, the giant radio telescope, Mayaquez zoo, and Cabo Roho. We're now at La Parguera, where there is great snorkeling and where we took a boat ride to the bioluminescent bay. Has been a great trip other than the Valentine's day episode.

Found out that our cell plan doesn't cover PR, so that has taken care of the texting traffic, for now.

You know what bothers me maybe more than the contact, it's the going straight to her girlfriends with the news and saying it makes her "so happy". Then the girlfriends encourage her even more stating that they are "so happy for her" and that she "deserves to be happy."

Ughh.

Hi schtoop,

I'm glad you're enjoying the trip. The V-Day incident is just confirmation that she's very foggy. If you're still at El Conquistador, they do have a kids club and nanny services. Try to get some time alone with WW to deposit LUs.

Your WW is probably looking for justification from people with similar boundary problems. Those girlfriends are not friends of your marriage or even your WW. They are supporting your WW's self-destructive behavior. There can be a lot of reasons for them to do that but it's definitely not WW's happiness.

Eventually you may need to block these girlfriends and make it uncomfortable for them to continue with their misguided encouragement. Do you know if any of these girlfriends have been involved in infidelity themselves?

--ElCamino72

New update - things continue to slide downhill.

So, it's our final night in Puerto Rico and I've been sitting on the fact that I knew about her Valentine's message and other contacts with the OM for three days now. We have a really nice dinner for a change and follow that up with an open talk on our balcony afterwards.

It was one of the first times that we spoke openly and honestly (I thought) about our relationship and where we were at without it turning into the blame game. I took this moment of openess to let her know I knew about the Valentine's day contact and other contacts. We were able to discuss it without losing our tempers or other love busters. She claimed that she sent out a mass Valentine's text and he "happened" to be on the list (BS). She also talked about needing closure on her terms and how he is more a friend than a physical partner.

It was then that I told her that there were three possible paths for our marriage:

1) Both of us try our best and try to recover the marriage, and ending all contact,
2) Go ahead and end it (our M) if things are irreparable,
3) Proceed in limbo without her really trying and the OM hanging in the wings.

I told her that I was OK with 1) or 2), but that I could not nor would not live by number 3. I repeated it to make sure she knew where I stood. She said she understood. We ended the conversation with a little more general talk about where we were at and I actually felt better than I had in days with knowledge of the contact eating me up inside.

Now fast foward to yesterday back at home. In the morning I check the wireless phone logs on the internet and find a flury of texts back and forth both the day before our "talk" in PR and on the day afterwards. At the same time, she had also been checking our internet history to see if I had been checking on her. She knew the contacts would show up in the log and that I would find them.

Anyway, I confronted her about it and this was not such a pleasant conversation. I let her know how deeply it hurts evertime I find out about contact and how she had RUINED the family trip for me (the truth). Again, more babble about the friendship and how she needs closure. I told her that closure=ending it, not stringing things along. I also let her know that you don't destroy families and ruin family vacations for "just a friend". The conversation ended with her admitting that she hasn't yet tried to recover and doesn't know if she wants to. We ended the conversation agreeing to see the MC this week (we each have a solo session) and then assess where things are.

So that was my update, now for a few questions.

I think I can still go ahead with plan A, but it's so hard to be loving and caring when I'm repeatedly stabbed in the gut everytime I see new contact. How long do I endure this?

I am starting to think ahead about plan B. My biggest question, how would I get her to move out of our house? I'm 90% certain she would flatly refuse, just as I'm 100% certain that I would not.

Use her 'fog' against her. Tell her she should move out so she can 'find' herself.

Then nail her with abandonment and a flurry of lawyers!

Time to re-expose to everyone that you already exposed to. You also need to widen the exposure audience. This time tell the kids like Mel tried to get you to do last time. You need to up the ante. You need to get the guts to do the right thing for your children. You need to fight or choose to just hang your head and walk away defeated....

Mindshare

1) Mass re-exposure on your WW's side (tell the kids).

2) Mass exposure on OM's side (tell his ex, his parents, siblings - do some digging and make his life he11).

3) Another ~4 weeks of plan A.

4) File for legal separation and go to plan B. Even if she is still in the same house for a while, you can still just not talk to her or meet any of her needs.

You're right, I'm feeling more and more defeated. The more this goes on, the more I question my own desire to renew a life with this woman. For the first time thoughts are starting to creep into my mind that perhaps a split would be the best thing for ME.

I'm going to see how things shake out this week. If things don't change, the massive re-exposure may be the best advice. What have I got to lose at this point?

This is the single greatest question most BS's NEVER ask themselves.

Good for you!!!

Wow, the fog is thick with this one.

Just to bring us up to date, here's a timeline since D-day.

1/23 - D-day, found text messages on her phone after she'd been out until 4:30 A.M. Insisted on no contact at intial confrontation.

1/29 - discovered more contact from cell phone log. Sat down with a cup of coffee and reiterated NC agreement

2/02 - discovered pre-pay cell phone. Exposed to who I thought would have the most influence, but wasn't "nuclear". A talk with the OM appeared to motivate him to end it.

2/13 - Leave on family trip to Puerto Rico, haven't seen any contact for nearly two weeks. Pre-pay cell phone has remained inactive in her car.

2/16 - discover while at PR that she sent electronic V-day card to OM. Other contacts follow.

2/19 - have long talk about trying to recover and confront about the new contacts. She minimizes them and claims she wants closure.

2/21 - find more contacts on cell phone log. Have a more stern confrontation about it (see above).

2/23 - Newest developments:

My cell phone and her cell phone are on the same plan. I get a text message from our provider that the password has been changed. I don't know what password was changed, but I can still view our logs from the internet (not sure she knows this). She is also prudent about deleting text messages as soon as they are sent or recieved, but I'm not sure she realizes the fact that they were made still shows up on the log (or doesn't care).

The pre-pay phone has gone missing.

I'm done confronting her about the contacts. I get nothing but lies and fogbabble anyway. She says the more I push and try to control her, the more she wants to do the opposite.

She had an individual appointment with the counselor yesterday, and I have one tomorrow morning. I'm going to see how these shake out, then come up with a plan of action. I really have nothing more to lose at this point.

Please, I'm here again asking for help and I hope that I am not ignored.

I have a couple of questions that I could really use help with.

1) Can "plan A" still be carried out while contact is ongoing?

I know that she is contacting him and I am tired of the confrontations about it that don't do any good, anyway. I don't need a lesson on how the recovery can't move forward if there is still contact, and I don't need a list of ways I should be fighting the affair. I know where everyone stands on these issues. It is what it is right now.

When talking about plan A in SAA, Dr. Harley often speaks as if there still might be contact occuring while we try our best to meet EN's and avoid LB's.

I asked our MC (yes, I know how you feel about most MC's methods) point blank what I should do about the continued contact. He asked me if it was a deal-breaker, would it force me to divorce if she doesn't stop. He asked me that because he feels that's where my wife is right now, that she would choose divorce if I forced the issue. He suggested a "don't ask, don't tell" approach for right now. I suspect he is right (about her choosing D), as she has never really promised no contact other than right after D-day when her back was against the wall. His advice might be good, or might not be, but I will try it his way at least until our next appointment on Monday.

2) How can a "plan B" work if my wife refuses to move out?

I know with certainty that this would be the case. I think she is trying to win a war of attrition right now with me, hoping that I will cave and move out or call the marriage over first.

Don't get me wrong, I'm nowhere near ready to give up on plan A. I just want to start formulating a plan B in the event it's needed while I'm still thinking somewhat rationally.

3) Do things change if I find her physically meeting him?

Right now, as far as I can tell, it has been mostly text messages with maybe some phone calls thrown in since D-day. But, I'm getting the feeling more and more that she will try to get together with him. How would that change my strategy?

I am in the same spot where my WW is having her cake and eating it too. I looked through the articles and found this:

But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

I have no idea how to get my WW out of the house. Lukily she is getting a job so she can be self supportive. I have no idea how to get a WS out of the house especially when they dont want to leave.

An affair is an affair. My WW is has made a couple attempts to meeting her OM. So far nothing has come to fruition because of expense. I have refused to pay for her to see the OM, and have taken away our joint credit cards and finances from her. She will use those for her own pleasure.

Hi schtoop,

1) Yes, you keep your plan A as long as possible. Most people in plan A do it while WS is in contact or withdrawal.

You meet her ENs and avoid LBs. You concentrate on the changes that YOU need to make. Avoid confrontations or relationship talk. At this point WW is an addict so those conversations are completely pointless.

At the same time, make it difficult for her to continue the A. Put pressure on OM, nuclear exposure, removing means for her to continue the A (do you pay her phone bill?). This is a war against the A (not your WW). Be intelligent about how you fight it.

2) Plan B for men is more difficult because of the who gets to move out. Just get in the mentality that you don't leave your home no matter the situation. You may want to consult a D lawyer to understand your options. Do not make any threats of D or let her know that you're preparing for plan B. This is only for preparation in case you NEED to go into plan B.

3) You might want to assume that the A is already a PA. I don't think it should change your strategy. Maybe you increase your pressure by executing a stronger "stick" part of plan A. But your WW seems to be deep enough in the fog that you'd be already putting as much pressure as possible. The more physical the A gets the more hooked she'll become. So you'd act now. Don't wait until it's too late.

Best wishes

--ElCamino72

Okay, here is the way it is. Plan A, and Plan B for that fact, are used when there is an active A. That is what they are intended for because they are used to try to help end the A. Although DrH suggests that in 85% of the cases, Plan A alone will not work. That is where Plan B comes in to effect.

Plan A is a way of showing your WS that the M and home are a better choice than the A. Most A's die a natural death. There is a chance that if you did NOTHING that your WS would still return but your chance of R is slim to none.

Plan A without the stick part would not be a Plan A, it would in fact be a Plan DOORMAT as we so affectionately call it around these parts. Plan A is about showing your WS that you are willing and capable of meeting their most important EN's and you will avoid LBing them in the process. You can't do this half assed. You have to follow all of the parts of the plans or else you are in a Plan C(CONFUSION), or in a NO PLAN plan.

My WH works with POSOW so there was physical contact. I went to Plan B and he lives with POSOW. It didn't change the plans. I still follow the MB concepts because I know that they will be my best chance at R. If the M does not R, then I will have my personal R(which will happen either way).

As far as this part, you could just try to do what I did. While my WH was at work, I packed all of his PERSONAL belongings and put them on the porch. I had planned that my Dad would come over so WH wouldn't make a scene but WH came home early. When my WH came home, I simply said that I couldn't live like this anymore and to save my remaining love for him he had to leave. It took about 30 minutes. I asked for his keys and he finally gave them to me. I locked the door and left(it was my Bday and I went to my bday party).

I am sure that my WH tells ppl that I kicked him out, but I don't talk to him or anyone about him so I don't care.

I have also seen it said around here that it is possible to do a Plan B while living in the same house. I don't know any examples of that but you could do some research.

My man schtoop,

You're asking for help but at the same time you're telling others how to give you help. As BH, we deal with a lot of confusion - some of it is BS fog that we create on our own.

Don't be afraid to question your own instincts and initial reactions to fight the A. Why settle for "what it is right now"?

Wish you the best

--ElCamino72

As a BH I have a tough time kicking my wife out. Aren't I entitled to the kids, the house, and the car since my wife is the cheat? I have everything taken care of on my end if I have to kick the WW out, except seperating the finances. The kids have someone to watch them while I am at work. However, I do worry about how she will take care of herself, how will she survive, and will she just go completly nuts and execute every wrong decision out there?

Well Sugar replied on one of my posts: "Whay should you care what happens to her."

Obviously your WW does not have much respect for you just like mine had no respect for me, so do whatever is needed to fix your marriage, and let her take care of herself.

Thanks, all!

For a little clarification, the affair was definitely physical already. It was going on for 5 months before D-day. I just think that there may not have been any physical contact since D-day (about a month), and that's something she holds onto.

Secondly, I think there's a good chance this affair dies it's own natural death. I know very little about this OM, other than he's 5 years younger than my wife, divorced, not very well off financially, and a bit of a bar fly (that's where she met him).

In our talks I've asked her what she wants, is it to split up so she can be with him? To this she quickly shakes her head no.

From talking to the OM and to my wife's friend who was present, they had a bit of spat at the bar the night before D-day. My best guess and from my conversation with the OM, he's enjoying the single life and my wife may be cramping his style a little and becoming a bit of a pest. He answers her text messages but rarely initiates them and they don't seem to talk very long. My wife is in this fantasy world and thinks he is some great friend.

I will continue to plan A my butt off and avoid talk about the OM or relationship.

And don't worry, I know better than to ever leave the house. I also know better than to threaten or warn of plan B or divorce. Those will happen suddenly, on my own terms, when she sapped me of any love I have remaining for her.

IF YOU WANT THE CONTACT TO STOP, LET ME REPEAT:


It's not rocket science. If you want her to stop contact, do those steps. If you want to be passive and avoid conflict, keep doing what you are doing.

Also, for certain carriers you can block phone calls and texts. You can block email and websites. Research this, invest in the technology, and prevent your addict WW from getting her fix.

You don't want your WW to continue to contact OM? Try harder, and take matters into your own hands.

Thanks, jmwc95, for reminding me what NEEDS to be done.

I have actually started formulating a plan to do this. I have hacked my wife's facebook page. Every meaningful person in her life is on there, including neighbors and bunco friends. I can post one message to her wall (identify it as coming from me), then change the password and it will be up there for all to see.

I know where she keeps her pre-pay cell phone now (found it yesterday). I want to monitor it for a little while to get a clearer picture of their current relationship. When I go nuclear, it will meet a ball peen hammer and be replaced in its hiding place.

I would really like to catch her in a physical encounter. That would end any of her foggy arguements like "just a friend, now", "I was getting closure on my terms", or my favorite, "the more you try to control me, the more I want to rebel."

I have opened a new bank account where I deposited some consulting income my wife doesn't know about. It's not much, but a little bit of a financial safety net if I need to adjust our finances quickly. Right now she does all the finances.

I am going to wait a couple of weeks, though. I told our MC I would try it his way for a little while. I'm curious to see if he will bring up the continued contact in our next session together, as it came as a surprise when I informed him of it during an individual session a couple days ago.

I also know my wife, where she is right now, and how stubborn and vindictive she can be. This is fact, such measures will have a better than 50% chance of leading straight to divorce. I have to be prepared for that outcome if I am going to make the move.

Well, we had an eventful evening.

I last posted on Friday afternoon, where I was at work and had a strong feeling she was going to see the OM that day while I was at work.

I had found her other phone and there was a text about "call me tomorrow (fri)". In addition, she got up early (she doesn't work on fridays, volunteers at the kid's school in the morning), which is unusual and spent some effort putting on nice clothes, makeup, and doing her hair.

Well, I was right. When I got home I checked her prepay cell and found a note from her thanking him for seeing her and how she now needed a nap.

You can see where I thought all this had gone, and I definitely confronted her about it as soon as I found out.

Turns out there was no physical encounter and the meeting was a final goodbye. He had been avoiding her since I called him and doing his best to cut ties. She had been hounding him to see her one more time so that they could part as friends. I know, I know, this is all such a stretch to believe and I would not trust her to break it off on her own. But, I think he is pretty set in his opinion and wants the final break.

I told her I would believe her this on last time. And that's where I'm at. All the snooping, discovery, and confrontation has left me drained. I will give her this final chance, and if she lets me down go straight to plan B or D.

She gave me th prepay phone without much coaxing and she watched as I hammered it to oblivion.

I can now full speed ahead plan A.

What's her position on a NC letter? I she's still reluctant to send one then I'd be very skeptic that contact will be over.

--ElCamino72

Am I alone here in reading a lot more into that line? Just wondering.






Really? Because she said so?

Yeah, I will never be sure but I think Wayzilla and Gollum attempted 2-sessions of "goodbye sex." They didn't take.




schtoop, I hope this is true.

Uggghhhh,,Nope........

I read that with the same thought.....

Just so you know, this is a pretty classic tactic used by waywards as cover to justify a rendevous and avoid consequences. [which worked!] This is just a manipulation to continue her affair. And yes they did sleep together. This time and next time, and the next and the next...... The affair will continue until you do something to stop it.

They excuse it as a "final goodbye," which is really irrational when you think about it. One does not need to see someone to close the door........they close the door. My strong suspicion is that they slept together and will likely be doing it again. [her word on this is meaningless] What this meeting did was simply fan the flames of her addiction and I predict you haven't seen the last of this. Giving the benefit of the doubt to an addict who will lie to pursue her addiction is not wise.

I'll see your strong suspicion and raise it with total certainty.

The red flags in that last post were unbelievable.

They will be communicating very deep and dark now. The how they do it was planned on Friday.

That is probably why she had such little reaction to the destruction of the pre-pay phone.

I was thinking the same thing. A new plan has been hatched...

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

This affair is on going. Needs a nap. Lets you have the phone without a fight.

Did this guy ever do a full exposure?

Schtoop,

I've got a bridge to sell you if you are interested.

Did you take her panties from that night and put them in an evidence bag?

Will your WW agree to a polygraph?

Sounds to me like OM was bragging about his latest conquest about how he completely wore her out.

"Closure" meetings almost always lead to sex, even if it is in fact the last time they see each other, you know, "one last time for old time's sake."

I wouldn't believe her bogus story at all.

Wow. That might be a record for shortest NC ever.

D I T T O

Well it was a final goodbye. For February.

Now it's March and there could be a handful of goodbyes still required. Saint Patty's Day, Daylight Savings, First Day of Spring, Palm Sunday, Passover.

So many goodbyes, so little time.

Nothing like self-repeating "closure sex" ...


All the time we read;

"We tried to end it. But we just couldn't stay away."

Usually there is a "Are you okay?" ... message.
Followed closely by a "I miss you." message.
And then, on the heels of that, a "I miss us." message.

Then, another face to face "good-bye" ... face to face being naked in bed.

Recycle/repeat ...

schtoop,

You have to realize that you're dealing with an addict. Every time is supposedly their last time. That's how they self-justify the continuation of their horrendous actions.

On D-Day, I discovered countless messages from WW saying to OM "this is our last time". Same thing time-and-time again. She even asked me to let her have a last meeting with OM for closure.

Perhaps the smell test is to ask again your WW to write a NC letter (?) If she refuses (which is very likely), you proceed with nuclear exposure. Or better yet, go nuclear NOW - it seems like your WW is very deep in the fog and is reading right out of the Sneaky WS Tactic Manual.

--ElCamino72

Well like I said earlier, I am pretty certain Wayzilla and Gollum tried "closure sex" at least twice before she made her great escape for freedom and independence.

Now she's probably having to use extreme "enclosure sex" just to keep him and his money.

Still no engagement ring on Wayzilla's finger, eh?
She's 'prolly doing circus sex tricks, trying to show OM enough "extreme enclosure" to earn that diamond ... not likely gonna happen. Too much free milk under 'da bridge.

Who'da Pep ???

Me'daPep

A key thing to remember when dealing with waywards is to only look at their actions because their words are meaningless.

Lets look at the ACTIONS of your WW, schtoop: she went to rendevous with her lover, getting all prettied up beforehand, and then came home and "needed a nap."

When you brush away the foggy narrative, all you have is a sexual encounter between 2 adulterers.


And this makes no sense either because they are not "friends," they are lovers.

Call this pile of infected camel foreskins back and make it clear you are going to be his worst nightmare.




Not that I have heard Pep. He has not made an honest adulteress of her yet.

I am sure she is trying every...um....trick she has to get it though.

Can we have a show of hands of everybody who thinks this was truly a "closure meeting?"

tap... tap... tap... tap...

I thought so.

Oh, schtoop. Is that you?

I don't know, Fred, Shtoop has been doing it his own way now for more than a month. I'm just poppin some corn so I can sit back and watch what happens next.

God's Blessings,

Say

From Krazy's new thread:



Sorry we did not see this coming earlier and warn you Shtoop. What a surprise.




What's your plan? Just curious.

OK, here's the deal.

I knew that there wasn't a very good chance that my wife was telling the truth about their last encounter, nor about her newfound committment to NC. Her story registered just as high on my BS meter as it did yours.

However, there was a small chance.



I CHOSE to give her this final opportunity to end it on her own because the rewards of doing so would have been that significant. I made a WILLING decision to give her that chance, as unlikely as it was and would do so again.

So what's my plan now?

Like I said, I have the credit card statement showing she was at the bar he frequents on Friday night, when she said she just hung out at a friends house. I also swiped the receipt out of her purse that verifies the purchase of another prepay phone. I have not let her know any of this yet.

I talked a good bit at our MC session on Monday about feeling "anxious" about leaving her alone for the weekend just to see her squirm. She acknowledged that my anxiety was understandable given the past events, but didn't react much otherwise.

Today I am going to get a voice activated recorder and stash it in her car. I think that's where she holds a lot of her phone conversations and I can get some good info there. I NEED to better understand the dynamic of their relationship. Is she keeping him in the wings until I pull the plug, so that she doesn't have to be the "bad guy"?

I also get clues that she is very much the instigator in this relationship. She is in a fantasy world about how they "connect", where I think he is much more casual about things. She seems to be puppy-dogging after him.

Depending on what I find with the VR, I am prepared to go into plan B. I will draft the letter, then leave it for her as I take the boys to my mom's house for a weekend. I know that she will refuse to move out, so that's where I'm unsure how to play it. Right now, SickofLimbo's 180 plan is the only way I've found to implement plan B under the same roof.

No offense, but your plan sucks. I would confront her in marriage counseling, expose to EVERYONE in her side and OM's side (including the kids), and if she didn't come crawling back asking for forgiveness and ask what can she do to fix things and make you feel safe, I would file for legal separation and try to get her removed from the house. Even if she doesn't willingly move out, the legal separation will help get her out eventually so you can plan B before divorce.

No offense taken, I get a lot of that around here.

MC is becoming more and more useless, just as this board said they are. In an individual session, he was the one who advised a "don't ask, don't tell" approach to the ongoing contact.

It is also clear that there will be no "crawling back", no matter what I do or who I expose to.

Plan B will include further exposure and letting the kids know. This whole thing is affecting my interaction with them and that cannot continue.

I have started to ask for lawyer recommendations.

This should very much concern you. Your children know something is going on. Not telling them the truth of what is happening between the two people they count on is shaking their foundation. Make sure they know what is happening, that it is nothing they have caused, and that you are there for them. They'll know then why you seem distracted or upset.

Exposure is part of Plan A, NOT B, as long as there is ongoing contact. Your refusal to do this has you in the position that you are in now.

God's Blessings,

Say

Expose = NOW
Plan B = LATER

Let exposure do damage to the affair first, then re-asses your plans based on the effectiveness of exposure. I would expose (really go after OM with exposure this time), do another 1-2 months of plan A, and then file for legal separation if there is still contact.

I did expose, though it was not necessarily nuclear. I lost the stomach for it halfway through the process. Both of our families know. Her best friends knew before I did.

I did not tell the kids and reserve the right to make that decision on my own. It will be made when I move to plan B.

The other man is somewhat of a spectre. He is divorced and has no family that I know of in town. Not much opportunity for exposure on his side, though I did talk to him once.

Waiting until you move to plan B is a huge mistake. If you told the kids now, the consequence of that exposure would be way more effective at killing the affair, and you might now even have to go to plan B or file for a legal separation. You would be MUCH better served to expose to the kids now and let their reactions influence your WW before any drastic measures are taken.

As for OM, you need to figure out who you can expose to that would make it uncomfortable for OM. Who cares where his family lives, find them and expose to them. Where does he work? Show up at his work (with a friend of yours) and tell him to stay away from your WW where other people can listen. Go to the bar OM frequents and mess with him there. Just be a pain in his behind until he leaves your WW alone. Don't give up so easily.

I haven't been posting on my thread, but a fellow BH that I have respect for asked for an update, so here goes.

Final word on exposure: Wife's family knows, my family knows, wife's previous office knows. Her two best friends have known since before D-day. She rarely hangs out with other friends who would look down on the affair. OM has no family in town and is a divorced eurotrash barfly. Don't know any more about him.

Kids will know when we both decide it's time. My wife may be fogged out, but has enough common sense to be part of this process. I am not going to argue this point.

My wife has been in NC since I last posted. I have found a few irregularities since then, but most have turned out to be false alarms and others still leave room for doubt. I have a shakey confidence that NC has been followed.

So where are we at?

Since all of this came out, I never got the ILYBNILWY declaration. Instead, I got the "I'm not in love with you and have no feelings for you" speech. She does admit that I'm a nice guy and great father to the kids, which is the only reason she didn't leave long ago.

So what is the big problem with me? It seems that I am very controlling and have smothered her over the years. However, she's the one who seems to make all the big decisions in our family's lives. I control with the constant little things, like badgering about housework, criticizing her, taking over the day-to-day minutia of everyday life around the house (here I though I was making love bank deposits with domestic help, but was actually making withdrawals in her mind). Working with our MC has definitely helped me see my part in all of this.

So where is she at? Won't wear her wedding rings, won't allow me to show affection, SF has been dead for a year and a half. She is going to MC with me to "find out if she even wants to try".

You'd think with NC now in place that it would be a great opportunity to plan A. Unfortunately, my wife will not allow me to meet her most important EN's. Like I said, affection is out, SF is out. I make myself available and attentive when she feels like conversing, but she totally dismisses the thought of 15 hours of undivided attention, saying "that's not happening". Recreational companionship is out, the only thing she enjoys doing is drinking with her friends. Won't do anything outdoors (camping, boating, etc.) with me and the boys. We went on one date that she termed a "chore".

So what is my plan? Since plan A is untenable (she will not allow me to meet her EN's), I have gone to SickofLimbo's "180 plan". While the 180 plan is not the direct way to build romantic love like MB's, it is much better for my own sanity. I am like a couple of other posters on here in that I tend to dwell on our relationship, what I'm doing, what she's doing, what she's supposed to be doing, etc., way too much. All of which leads to me trying to "control" the situation, which of course she resents as me be my "controlling" self.

Under the 180 plan, I've realize that I can't control how she feels or how she acts, so its pointless to worry about. I am going on with my life, working on my faults, avoiding LB's, and being the best possible father to my boys. If she sees that and comes around, great! Maybe then I can pull her on board with Marriage Builders. If not, that's OK too and I can move on with my life.

I'm continuing to be vigilant about contact with the OM. Like I said, there have been a few irregularities, but some I've found to be nothing and others are still worrisome. I told her the last time that I refuse to live in a marriage with a third party, and I plan to enforce that boundary if I ever find contact again. It will be straight to plan B with the full realization that it will likely lead quickly to plan D.

I have started to make preparations like my own bank account, names of lawyers to contact, and a journal that documents her time away from the family, drinking habits, etc.

So here we are, going to MC once a week and trying to resolve years of repressed feelings of hurt and anger. Since she is the one who "doesn't know" if she wants to put in the effort of recovery, I am left doing all of the heavy lifting (familiar thread with us BH's) and our MC has acknowledged this.

Meet her need of conversation. Don't make it obvious you are trying to meet that need. Just make small talk. Be creative and find ways around her "wall." Conversation is a powerful tool. Know how to use it. There are guys that can talk their way into a happily married woman's pants. Just pretend she's a girl out of you league that you just can't ask out right away, but maybe after six months of laying the groundwork, you might have a chance. It's you only shot of improving your marriage before she moves on to OM#2. She's not going to leave you, she's just going to let you foot her bill while she does as she pleases, unless you can get her to fall for you again.

This is solid advice.

I've been trying to make myself available without puppy-dogging around after her.

Also, absolutely no relationship talk.

The one small glimmer of hope I have is that she hasn't left yet (although I don't know how much I care at this point). The only thing I can figure is that we had one conversation a month ago that led to our discussion of what our lives would look like post-D. She gave me her view, which of course was an agreeable divorce, us still being friends, and working closely together to take care of the boys (after school care, soccer practice, holidays, etc.). Even some reference to me finding a place "around the corner".

Then, I gave her the realistic view. Me fighting for as much custody as I can get, not settling for anything less than 50%. Me wanting the house and primary residence for the kids. No chance at remaining "friends". I would, of course, always put the boys first and do everything I can for them. But, I am not going to make her life easy and be her on-call nanny.

Then there's the little issue of her making nearly twice the money I do (I didn't tell her this part). If I fully prepare for war in a divorce, I could see getting the house, the kids, with her even having to pay child support or alimony.

She may have come to the realization that a post-D life wouldn't be so rosy.

I think I may reached her a little with my 180 plan this weekend.

She went out with her friends for happy hour on Friday afternoon.

Me, I invited over our friends and their kids from down the street for a nice dinner of grilled fish. The kids (who are best friends) played and watched movies while the adults drank beer and talked on the porch.

My wife was surprised when she got home and saw that I had people over and that we had a good time. Their wife and kids had left right before she got home, just my friend was still there.

I also got around fixing a hole in our garage ceiling this weekend.

My wife was sick with a nasty cold and spent the rest of the weekend sleeping or sitting around the house. I was productive and upbeat. Took the kids to church without her on Sunday morning, did the housework (which she said she was going to do), went grocery shopping, and grilled a nice dinner Sunday night. She did manage to come out of her coma for steak and wine.

good job

Nothing much new to report.

I have caught her lying and sneaking around here and there, but nothing solid that I can confront her about. One example is that she has a "Bunco" group that meets on one Tuesday every month. They just eat dinner, play a silly dice game, and drink wine. Being on a Tuesday night, these gatherings end around 11:00 at the latest.

Of course, over the last 6 months or more she doesn't come home until 2:30 A.M., claiming a few of them just hung around and talked. I know what was going on here.

Last Tuesday she had a bad cold and said she'd come home early. That never happened and it was 2:00 A.M. once again. She said that some of the girls were really wound up and she was enjoying herself. Turns out, the party ends at 11:00 as it should and she and some friends went out to the bar afterwards.

She was with her friends, so I don't think there was contact, but why lie to me about it? Just reinforces the wayward mindset she's still in.

I'm not where Linus is yet, but my love for her is dwindling at an alarming rate. I'm starting to clearly see the person she is, selfish beyond belief, grand sense of entitlement, and absolutely no regard for everything I've done and still do for her and the family.

Similar to plan A, our MC is having me do all the heavy lifting because I'm the one who wants this to work. We both recognize that it is unfair, but all there is to work with at this point. But the heavy lifting is exhausting, and I don't know how much I can keep it up.

If there was just one small tidbit of encouragement from my wife, I would be re-energized and ready for another marathon. Unfortunately, there hasn't been even the smallest crumb.

NO EXPECTATIONS. Plan A ends in either recovery, or Plan B.

Maybe you should start planning your Plan B. You may be getting close to your limit here.

Hey schtoop - I finally am all caught up with your thread, and you right about the similarities of our situations.

I know where you are right now, because I'm just a bit further along. There comes a time in Plan A when the ol' lovebank is empty, and your Giver is burnt out. That's where I am, and you're close behind I think.

I agree with Limbo - get ready for Plan B. Don't wait too long, or you'll be hurting yourself.

BTW - small world. Mrs. Linus has a Bunco night too. She's usually home early because she really doesn't drink. Whew.

Why not snoop and find out if she is where she says she is. Before 11 pm and after.

ITA

I'm still snooping.

I have verified from an independent source that she just went to the bar with a couple of her friends after Bunco.

I watch her cell phone messages whenever I can and have found nothing significant. There's always the possibility of having an affair phone, but I haven't found one and have gone through her car, purse, and bedroom pretty thoroughly on a couple of occasions.

If she's still seeing the OM, she will slip up and I will find out. I have already started planning for plan B and will go straight there if I were to find contact. There will be no more confrontations about it, no opportunity for denials or spinning the truth. I will just leave the plan B letter on the table for her and go dark. I will also consult a lawyer first to make sure I know my rights and avoid any legal pitfalls.

I still anticipate her refusing to move out. I really need advice on what to do for plan B if the wayward spouse won't leave. SickofLimbo, Linus, and I have repeatedly asked for advice on this an no one seems to have an answer.

I got beat up in MC pretty good yesterday. Most of the session was our MC pulling out of my wife what made her so withdrawn from our marriage. Lots of stories of me being controlling and generally giving off constant negative vibes about housework, etc. A lot of hit was true and hit home.

HOWEVER, next week I plan to give the other side of the story. I'll tell about how doing and doing, giving and giving, without getting anything in return created that negative attitude in me. I know all this rehash won't do anything to build romantic love, but our MC is convinced that we need to work on releasing and talking about the years of repressed feelings before we can start the love-building process.

File for legal separation.

here

here

Melody,

Thanks for weighing in. Yes, I know full well about the MB's approach versus conventional counseling. Yes, I firmly believe that MB's IS the right approach.

I have bought the books and encouraged my wife to read them. They are on my dresser top as we speak. I have talked about some of the basic concepts, both to my wife and in counseling. I try my best to live by MB's principles now.

The problem is that there is no buy in from my wife. The fact that the push for MB's was coming from me was perceived as me being "controlling" yet again.

Right now, the only small victories I have is that she's still here, and that she is going to counseling. To his credit, our MC makes one valid point. My wife is so withdrawn right now that 1) She will not allow me to meet her most important EN's, and 2) Has absolutely no interest in meeting mine. Since the whole MB's concept is about meeting each other's EN's, it clearly is premature at this point.

Doctor Harley talks about the three stages of marriage: intimacy, conflict, and withdrawal. He states that for a marriage in withdrawal, it must pass back through the conflict stage before getting back to intimacy. In fact, it is seen as progress when a marriage moves from withdrawal to conflict, as painful as it may be. Our MC is trying to lead us through this process right now and is actually pretty good at what he does. So while it's not MB's, I'm hoping that there will be a tangible benefit to his approach.

Dr. Harley:


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3620_state.html

So, my best hope is that our MC can lead us to a place where she'll be receptive to MB's. In the meantime, I'm trying to do my best to be the lighthouse and avoid LB's.

She who cares the least, has the most power.

You may do well to read the articles in the newsletter portion of the Marriage Builder Discussion Board.

I think these in particular will hit you between the eyes and inspire you with a very specific timeline and plan to take back your power in the relationship:

Part 1 - When to Call it Quits

Part 2 - When to Call it Quits

Part 3 - When to Call it Quits

schtoop, but you are not avoiding lovebusters at all. You are going to counseling together and lovebusting each other. And paying for it. Your recent exercise of her giving you a litany of her grievances in a session of counseling reminded your W of why she dislikes you and her marriage and gives her more justification for her affair.

Past resentments were brought into the present which puts the potential of creating a romantic marriage farther and farther away. It is impossible to lovebust your way to marital happiness.

This is actually causing HARM to your marriage if you understand AT ALL how romantic relationships are created. I HAVE ONE using these concepts and KNOW this will impede your chances of ever having it. Your C doesnt know what he is doing. Your MC is not leading you any place except to a divorce.

You don't need your wife's buy in to get counseling from Steve Harley. He won't counsel you together anyway. If you called him, he would tell you what to say to get her on the phone so HE can sell her himself.

schtoop, you routinely don't take the advice given on this board from members who have saved their marriages, but I would implore you to take my advice on this. Your marriage is not going to survive many more of your mistakes.

Kayla, thanks for the links and this statement above is true without a doubt. One benefit of the 180 plan is that it takes back a little of that power, where a one-sided plan A does not.

As your links suggest, plan B may be the only thing left to shift the "power" back to where I can put these kind of boundaries in place. That's why I am making plan B plans. There is also a very good chance that plan B would blow the whole thing up, which Dr. Harley acknowledges.

Melody,
I know you come on strong and like to tell it like it is. I do value your opinion and advice.



You've made statements of this vein to me an many other posters often, and it smacks of emotional blackmail.

If my marriage (and many others) doesn't survive, it's because of many mistakes made by both partners leading up to the affair, and a HUGE mistake made by the wayward in having the affair. Add in a spouse who is unwilling to take any meaningful steps towards recovery and your looking at a high probability of failure regardless of how carefully your interpretation of Dr. Harley's plan is followed. The above statement is over the line.

Marriage Builders does include plans for dealing with the withdrawal and conflict states.

schtoop, it is not emotional blackmail, it is a statement of fact. In situations like this, there is a very narrow path to recovery. It does not just happen by accident. While there are no guarantees, there is a tried and true path that is most likely to avail a successful outcome. Continually veering off that path is unlikely to lead to success.

It's as if you were trying to get to Cincinnati and insist on taking Interstate 30, despite the fact that it does not go to Cincinnati. Am I blackmailing you if I tell you that you aren't going to get to Cincinnati that way? Or am just stating a true fact when I tell you that IH 30 doesn't go there but IH 75 DOES? Wouldn't it be mean of me to NOT tell you that you can't get to Cinncinnati that way?

People really do want to help you, schtoop, and it is frustrating to those of us who have saved our marriages using these concepts. It didn't happen by accident either.

Dr Harley points this out over and over again in his writings that this is not a crap shoot:

Requirements for Recovery

Maybe he secretly wants to go to Little Rock.

Why would anyone want to go to Cincinnati in the first place?

LOL, my 5 year old is stuck on wanting to go to Cincinnati.

He's been wanting to see snow (we live in Florida) and I think he saw an NFL game where it was snowing in Cincinnati, so that's where he wants to go. We've explained that somewhere like Colorado would be better and there's really nothing to like in Cincinnati, but he's convinced otherwise.

I wanna go to Minneapolis!

Take I70.

Take I35.

I plan to take a jet plane, actually.

With my wife by my side, and hotel reservations at the Embassy Suites!

Schtoop- I think our questions regarding trying Plan B in the same house were answered. IT CAN'T BE DONE. I wish I can remember where the post was (I think on Linus' thread), but I think Mel quoted Dr. H's statement about it, and if there is NO OTHER WAY to get WW to leave, the BH should. Last resort of course, but if it comes to Plan B, I think we need to be willing to leave.

Fortunately, I don't think you are there yet. I do agree that maybe this MC isn't the best choice. Can you search for a different one that does use the MB concepts? Do you think you may be able to get her on the phone with Steve? I also don't believe there is much value in dredging up the past.

Thanks, SoL.

No, all things being equal I can do the 180 plan (with as much plan A mixed in as I can) for quite a while longer. I'm starting to make plans for plan B, but they won't be implemented unless I find broken NC. I will not leave the house under any circumstances short of a court order, so plan B might not be an option if she refuses to leave.

I won't talk about our MC anymore on this forum, what I relay gets misinterpreted and attacked. His goal is to teach us to get in touch with our feelings and share them with each other, something we both totally suck at and has lead to our situation. He didn't engage my wife with the purpose of rehashing the past, it just kind of went there while he was trying to get anything out of her. She claims to be completely numb.

While not as affective as full-on MB's, I do think this guy is good at what he does and our sessions have value. Half the posters on here have their own MC's.

Chili! 5-way.

I will try to find that post about leaving the house if need be. It changed my thinking on the Plan B under the same roof idea. If I find it, I will post the link here for you.

I tried the 180 for a while and after talking with SH, I'm back on board with a full Plan A. I'm not saying you shouldn't try the 180 as I think it is a slight middle ground from A to B, however others may.

If you feel the MC is helping, then I would continue, but take Mel's comments to heart. I don't think I've seen her wrong on here yet. I would attempt a call with SH anyway. He is very good at this and I'm sure it would be a positive experience (and no, I don't get a commision).

My WW and I share the same IC, however not as MC. If we ever get to the point of trying MC, I would not use her. She helps me personally, and may be helping my WW, but I will try hard to find a pro-MB counselor if I can.

Schtoop- Here is a link to the thread about Plan A vs. 180 vs. Plan B. I also bumped it for you. Definately worth reading.

Plan B same House

I'm one of those posters, schtoop. I'm also of the opinion that SOME MCs can be effective depending on the individual situation. The MC also needs to be very pro-marriage, and understand the reason you are there is to save your marriage, not just dig up a lot of useless junk from the past. In our case, the sessions were very helpful.

Our MC, like yours, has been focusing on helping our communication which was a main part of the problem. If anything from the past comes up, he deals with it quickly, then moves on to how we can use lessons learned to help plan for a better future. There have been many instance where something from Mrs. Linus past helped her to understand some of the anger and resentment she had for me. It helped the MC point out that I was not the problem- she was channeling her anger to the wrong guy. We've also had many O&H conversations with MC, and he has helped us a lot in opening up.

He also really cares for us, and wants us to succeed. At this point, though, Mrs. Linus needs more IC than we need MC, so that's where we are.

The thing about MB is, it will definitely work once both spouses are committed to making the marriage work. I have no doubt about that. The principles are also very effective in ending an affair. Dr. H's book Surviving An Affair is awesome. But everyone is different and I do believe that there are times when a counselor who can look at the couple in the eye(s) and work with them to get over a hump. Sessions with an MC can be very beneficial if used with MB. MB by itself doesn't always work (look at the Divorce forum), but I doubt that at least in my case just MC would have worked. I needed all I learned here, along with the support I found, to cope. That being said, the sessions with the MC helped me a lot, if not necessarily save the marriage. That remains to be seen. I wish I had found MB a long time ago, but the past is the past and now we're doing our best to have a great future and if going to a MC helps, then that's what we do.

Don't let all the negative talk about MCs get you down. If it helps you at all, it's worth it.

Oh, BTW - Mrs. Linus has a session by herself with the MC tonight. She brought the book HNHN with her. She says it's been very helpful.

schtoop, have you read this article?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html

Never did I have more control or power in my M than I did in Plan A......Plan A is NOT about giving AWAY the power, it's about GAINING......and if you haven't experienced THAT, then you have not done it properly.....

Plan 180 is telling your spouse one thing...."I don't give a crap what you do"

Well said NOT.

Thanks Linus, SoL, and not2fun.

Just read your thread on plan B while in the same house and how it can't be done!

Lots of helpful advice there. Instead of being resigned to the assumption that my WW would refuse to leave, I will definitely talk to a lawyer first and have my ducks in a row (would have done that anyway). With knowledge of my legal rights and the right persuasion (I like the idea of packing all her [censored] up and leaving it in the garage), she may just do it.

We had mixed weekend, some good and some same old/same old. Not near ready for plan B, that's just a fallback if I were to discover contact.

As promised, some thoughts on the whole 180 plan debate. First, I was entirely wrong, as I think SoL and others may have been, to look at 180 as a substitute for plan B. Totally wrong thinking.

The more closely I read and digest the 180 plan, the more similarities I see with MB's plan A.

Many of the tenants of 180 are just restatements of "avoid lovebusters".

Others are consistent with the "no expectations" concept.

Very important stress on not necessarily avoiding relationship talk, but not initiating it. Again, entirely consistent with plan A.

180 also stresses showing your WS the strong, confident, fun old self that they fell in love with. Kind of like plan A in that regard.

To be fair, some of the 180 plan is definitely NOT consistent with MB's. I like the idea of not trying too hard to meet some EN's when the WS is clearly not receptive (always being up her [censored] as my wife once said). But, to make yourself "unavailable" is certainly taking things too far and clearly violates the policy of undivided attention.

Also, the 180 plan does not stress meeting EN's, which of course is critical to plan A and the biggest disconnect between the two approaches. I don't think any of us who read and liked the 180 plan went so far as to throw this concept out the window. We just can't come across as being too "needy" when trying to meet our spouses EN's and should never appear as needy as far as getting our own EN's met.

In trying to execute a plan A, I was really struggling with the "no expectations" aspect. Reading the 180 plan helped tremendously in that regard and some of their suggestions are quite useful to that end.


This is not a correct characterization. 180 is about showing your spouse that, "I will be OK, regardless of how you act." Big difference.

In looking back on what I've been doing for the past month(s) and where to go from here, it's definitely plan A, although not necessarily a mistake-free plan A up to this point. I will try to clean that up from here on out.

schtoop - I agree 100% with you here, and the 'I will be OK' message is very important. In my case, it got WW's attention big time. It was almost like she was thinking 'uh oh, I pushed him too far'.

It's a fine line between trying to meet her ENs when she's not receptive and being a doormat. You know your wife better than anyone. Her reaction to your behavior can tell you a lot.

Best of luck - stay the course!

This is not a correct characterization. 180 is about showing your spouse that, "I will be OK, regardless of how you act." Big difference.[/quote]

Actually, I was able to show my H that *I* would be OK and just fine whether or not he came back to the marriage or not in Plan A. There is no difference in that regard in Plan A. It all boils down to HOW you present it. Heck, much to the chagrin of my mentor, I even told H at one point that I "may" not be around once he was done with his dalliance.

I'm not sure where you get the impression that Plan A doesn't show your spouse you WON 'T be okay???

Again, when done properly, with consistence, confidence, and finesse, Plan A shows the WS what can of marriage partner you CAN be, it's just up to them if they want that or let someone else get those benefits........

There are some useful things in 180, HOWEVER, if used solely, then you WILL leave the WS thinking you don't give a darn and then they see no way to come back to the marriage. Plan A does give the WS that path back......which is ESSENTIAL

Not2fun

Not2fun,

I think we're all thinking pretty much alike.

Like I said, when I began my plan A I really, really, really struggled with the "no expectations" concept. My fairness meter was pegged on zero.

Why the hell should I have to do all the heavy lifting, bend over backwards to please her, try to live my life as the perfect husband and father, do all of the housework and take care of the boys (because that's who I want to be is the answer). All the while she goes out till all hours of the night with her friends, sleeps the day away ignoring the kids, spends whatever the hell money she wants on herself and doesn't change a damn thing about her screwed up self?

But, the problem was not with the plan A concept, it was with my attitude and how I was implementing it. Reading the 180 plan and implementing SOME (the ones consistent with MB's) of their measures has helped me immensely with the "no expectations" aspect.

It also showed me that plan A doesn't mean sacrificing all my time and energy on reaching her. I can still live life, go fishing once in a while, hang out with friends if I want to, and of course do fun things with the boys. That went a long way towards keeping my sanity

Uh - oh!

The red flags are starting to pile up. Nothing that I have concrete proof of right now, but I'm seeing more and more signs.

I would not put it past her to have an affair phone, I've taken a hammer to one already. If she has one, she knows better than to leave it in her car or bedroom. I have shaken both down thoroughly and continue to check her car when I can get away with it. If she has one she may keep it at work.

But, I just found several text messages on the internet phone log (her regular cell phone) to a man I don't know. She also texted this man at 1:00 A.M. last Friday night when she was supposed to be with girlfriends doing a bachelorette party. I see no other evidence of calls or texts, but the ones from yesterday had been deleted (I'll scroll through her cell phone when I find it unattended). I found them on the the internet phone logs, so I have no clue what they said. Is this a potential OM #2, or is it tied up with OM #1?

I posted earlier how she lied about going out to the bar after "Bunco" last week.

I have a pair of underwear with an abnormal stain on them. I have a semen test kit that should arrive today or tomorrow and we'll see what that shows.

There's some other suspicious behavior that I won't go into right now, but none of it is damning enough on it's own to confront her with. She would just deny it and I can write the script to explain each one away.

The biggest thing is that she's still in the wayward mindset. There's no real withdrawal, nor is there any movement towards working on our marriage. She ACTS like she's cake eating.

I am getting some lawyer recommendations and want to have an initial consultation. I will be ready to move quickly should I find proof, it will be straight to plan B without passing go.

You mean plan D/LS? You can't go to plan B without her agreeing to move out, and I doubt that will happen. If you want to go to plan B, I would try the legal separation route first.

Yes, that's what I mean. I will consult with a lawyer and see what is needed to craft a legal separation, and how much agreement you need between the two partners to make it valid.

Depending on what he says, I may try the "pack up a suitcase and leave a plan B letter with it" and see how she reacts. She could surprise me an go for it, especially if I hit her with no warning. She has parents that live 45 minutes away and her single party buddy who is looking for a housemate.

And there won't be a warning, there won't be any disclosures of my evidence or confrontations about it. I will simply state in the plan B letter that I KNOW an affair is continuing and will not live with it any longer.

Good for you for not taking it like many BHs.

If you can't stand it anymore that is YOUR choice.

Good for you, schtoop. She needs to know you're serious about this.

Sctoop

I think you have done a sterling job of keeping it together over these past months. Extremely difficult for anyone.

One big victory you have had, is stopping the affair with exposure and drawing a line in the sand. Well done.

I am not a big fan of conventional counseling. From people I know that have gone through traumatic experiences, the counseling seemed to just hold them there.
Right or wrong, maybe in your case it is the only way the two of you can begin to talk to each other.

When it comes to conflict, do not forget you need the olive branch to find your way out. Otherwise it becomes and endless argument with neither side listening.

Listening is a strong way to build empathy and empathy is one of the biggest ways to build attraction. If you can acknowledge to someone that you are listening to them they a more likely to open up more.

It would be good to hear sometime soon that the two of you are sitting down drinking wine together on that porch.

Thanks, Jackblack.

Our MC is really stressing the listening part and that we should be practicing those skills constantly. I really need work in that area, it's hard to listen to her crap without becoming defensive. Oops, there I go again.

OK, that was interesting.

Just had a phone conversation with my potential lawyer. He asked me why we might be divorcing and of course I told him about the affair. Then he asked if she was still seeing him, to which I responded that she say's no, but I have my doubts.

His advice was to lay low, play dumb, and get PROOF. He said that ambushing her in a lie in front of the judge with concrete proof will do more to tip the court in my favor than anything else I can do.

I asked him about separating if I caught her, and again he said not to, to just play dumb and even make it easy for her to carry on, and get PROOF.

He finally asked me if I wanted her back. Of course I answered (in my best MB's swagger), that's what I'm still working my utmost on. Then he asked me if I believed she would ever change.

That one made me pause. The truth is that I'm feeling more and more certain that she will NOT change. Maybe it's not some alien who took over my wife, maybe it's her true colors revealed plainly to me for the first time?

We ended the conversation with the Lawyer referring to me as "not ripe yet" (common phrase in their circles). He said he'll still be there in a couple months when I've had time to ripen a little more. I agreed with him and thanked him for his time.

The question is, should I still stick by my plan of going to plan B if I find contact again? I know the lawyer has no interest in saving my marriage, so I can choose not to listen to his advice. I also know that I screwed up plan A several times and am just as likely to screw up plan B.

Maybe I should scrap it all and just make sure I don't screw up plan D.

Hi schtoop,
I have the same thoughts about change in my WW. Truth is, it does you no good to think about that right now. Only she can do that. So my advice is to stay away from that thought.

What is your ultimate goal? Recovery? If so, then I would say follow and stick to Plan A until you know it is time for the plan that wouyld lead you toward your ultimate goal (Plan B).

I have made many mistakes in my Plan A as you have seen and helped me with. Oh well, we can only pick ourselves up get back at it. Don't worry about screwing up Plan D, that's why you're paying the lawyer big bucks. Plus, your the one w/a plan. Your WW is acting on her selfish emotions so I would imagine that she will do her fair share of screwing up in Plan D.

Hang in there buddy and ask yourself what your ultimate goal is and head in that direction.

Schtoop,
I have to apologize that I don't know your whole story, I just can't catch up with all these threads in their entirety. But I see from the last couple of pages that you are in a very similar spot that I was in not too long ago. I am very compelled to jump in and say that Now_What is entirely right. And furthermore I can tell you exactly what will happen if you let your will/drive get weak and allow the demons of possible further contact persuade you. (I can refer you to the last few pages of my thread when I changed the title to " -Going to Plan D.)"

Here's the thing: even if there is confirmation of further contact, etc, if you skip Plan B, you'll always wonder what would have happened if you didn't. Heck, further contact, or another OM really just means she's still wayward, it isn't necessarily another slap in the face (to my point: sheesh, look at Limb and Scot, and a host of others). You won't know if she's "reveling her true colors" until you take the situation to the n'th degree...with Plan B.

Now, I went to Plan D. Just couldn't handle Plan B, or any more abuse. That's me. There are reasons for that that I won't bog down this post with. But I'll tell you I still wonder- it nags. ...I typically come to my senses pretty quickly (the woman just isn't ready for a real marriage), but it's still there from time to time.


I hope this helps Schtoop. I see you around a lot of threads and you're very insightful. I know you'll come out of all this a better Schtoop.

~opt

Thanks, Optimism and now_what.

The question about skipping plan B was more of a rhetorical question.

You're exactly right, a divorce settlement for my situation and in my state is pretty cut and dried. I'm not going to throw out a chance to save the marriage just to get the upper hand once divorce is necessary.

However, I cannot keep living like this much longer. Wife went out to celebrate Cinco de Mayo with friends last night and was gone until after midnight. The receipt in her purse shows she checked out of the restaurant at 9:51. Again, nothing I can confront her about, because she'll just say that they went to her friends house to talk a little more.

Here's a schedule of my last week: Keep in mind that everyday I'm the one who gets up with the kids, feed them and get them ready for school, make lunches, take them to school, fix them dinner, get them to and from soccer practice, do homework with them, then get them bathed and ready for bed. That's me, every day and night regardless of if she's here or not. Also, the kids get home from school after 5:00.

Wednesday: She has rehearsal for a kid's show they're putting on at church. Gone from 6:00 - 8:30 (kids bed time).

Thursday: She does manage to grace us with her presence that night.

Friday: Goes out with friends for a bachelorette party. Gone from 5:30 until 2:00 A.M.

Saturday: Sleeps in (isolation chamber) while I take the boys to a 5K run/1 mile fun run in the morning. Still sleeping as I come back and take the youngest to soccer game. Goes back to bed at 1:30 until we have to go to a company BBQ for her work at 4:00.

Sunday: I have work to do at our beach unit and leave early. She sleeps in until 10:45 (missing church) while the boys wake up and watch TV. I get home at 3:00, she sleeps again until 6:00 when she takes the oldest to cub scouts.

Monday: Church practice 6:00 - 8:30.

Tuesday: Another meeting with church group, gone from 6:00 until 10:00 (I have doubts about this one).

Wednesday: Cinco de Mayo with friends, gone til after midnight.

Tonight: More practice with church.

Friday night: Going out with friends again without a doubt.

She's also homeroom mom for the kids school and this is teacher appreciation week, so she's constantly going to the store for some cards, flowers, etc.

Yesterday we had a conversation about how she is overextending herself (didn't even mention the partying), but she doesn't see it. I left it alone so that I didn't lovebust. You and I know that she's doing all the super-mom stuff to compensate for her guilt from the affair, but I can never say that to her. The bottom line is that it's just another escape from having to face our marriage and kids would appreciate a little time with her much more than all the outside stuff she does.

At any rate, it's no way to repair a marriage. Even if there's a small chance that she's not still in contact with the OM, I just can't keep living with a wife that's engaged in everything else but me (and the kids are feeling it too). Throw in the constant nagging feeling that she's seeing the OM and it's hard not to be bitter all the time.

That's why I'm kind of hoping I can prove contact. There's a small chance that plan B would shake some sense into her, but if it doesn't I'm OK with plan D. I just can't take this kind of life anymore.

Schtoop, here is your plan for marital recovery.

1) Continue for a short while longer with an even BETTER plan A.

2) Talk with a lawyer and try to prepare yourself to get a better custody arrangement because of documentation of all her partying.

3) File for legal separation and go to plan B. Hopefully, the legal separation and plan B will paint a realistic and ugly picture of what divorce will actually be like, making the plan A version of you a better option.

Otherwise, you are just biding your time until you can't stand her anymore and file for D. What is your plan? You don't seem to have one.

Can you hire a PI?

I agree that some evidence of an affair would be good for court, but as far as plan B goes you have reason to do that now. You don't need to wait for that. The fact that she refuses to do anything to recover your marriage and meet your needs is reason enough for Plan B. The behavior that you described is not a marriage, much less a WS who is remotely interested in recovery.

You are 100% right here, ML. Her stance on recovery since the beginning is "I don't know what I want to do, I DON'T know if I want to try." So, she's just been sitting there in limbo doing nothing to recover our marriage while I do all the heavy lifting. Agree that in truth she is not remotely interested in recovery. I'm feeling more and more that I should plan B her whether or not I find concrete proof.

I've been waiting for days for a semen test kit to come in the mail. That could force the issue, depending on what I find with a pair of drawers I have stashed away.

jmw asks what is my plan?

Right now, I'm still trying to do a limited plan A. I say limited because she will not allow me to meet her most important EN's (affection, SF, RC). So I am interested when she feels like conversation and ask her about church and kids activities. I do try to be upbeat, but that's hard when I'm so bitter inside. Having the kids around helps there. My strong points are domestic support, which I've always done a great job with. Unfortunately, that's not one of her important EN's. Me being too militant about housework is one of the things that pulled us apart, so I'm trying to walk a fine line between providing the support and not making it a negative. I do it more for me than for her.

I now act indifferent towards her party habits. She tells me she's going out with her friends and I say "OK". I don't ask where, what time she'll be back, etc. I don't ask her about it the next day.

Here's an example: This morning she told me the restaurant they went to and how service was a nightmare. I replied, "OK, me and the boys had our own Cinco de Mayo celebration. We went to Moe's and the kids directed the making of their own burritos. We all had a great time."

The next step is plan B. I will write the letter and pack up suitcase for her and hit her as a total surprise. She may not leave, but then again she just may if I show enough resolve.

Schtoop, regardless of whether you continue Plan-A or go into Plan-B, get the PI and get the goods on her and stash them away for safe keeping. Your attorney advised that it would do you good in your state in the event of a divorce. It may even help in the event that a custody hearing becomes neccesary.

Work the MB plans to save your M and get the PI to save your butt.

God's Blessings,

Say

How long are you going to stay in plan A? When are you going to plan B? If you whole plan B revolves around the hope that she will move out, you are in trouble. What is your backup plan when that does not happen?

schtoop, you should check out the radio show. Several men have called in about their wive's affairs and Dr Harley is hammering them about the fact that the conditions that led to the affair have to change in order to recover the marriage. For example, your wife's affair happpened partly because she goes out at night without you. In order to recover, that practice needs to STOP. Dr H suggested to the H that he start going with her when she goes out.

I know you probably won't like hearing that, but I think it is something you need to know.

How long in plan A? Not long if I can turn up proof of contact. Could be a couple days, could be that I need a PI like suggested above. If I had just one crumb of encouragement from my wife I could continue plan A with renewed vigor for months, but thus far that crumb has not been forthcoming.

If she doesn't move out? Meet with lawyer and explore legal separation.

1) You should have a date in mind. Even if there is not contact with OM#1, it's only a matter of time before she hooks up with OM#2. Her entire behavior needs to change. Give yourself a target date.

2) You should be exploring that now. She's an entitled wayward. She's not going to move out. If anything, she'll claim you're being abusive and try to have you thrown out.

Get with a lawyer today, tell him your plan, strategize with him, and do the work NOW to prepare to execute your plan, like hiring a PI, documenting all the nights your WW goes out, doing more things with the kids to further solidify your case for being AT LEAST the custodial parent and hoping for even more than 50/50. Do what you can NOW to put yourself in the best possible light to a judge IN CASE you have to do down the plan B/LS/D path. Right now you don't have a SET plan to execute. You are just floating around reacting to your WW. If you continue down this path, eventually you'll break and want a divorce, and the terms you receive will NOT be as favorable as if you had planned AHEAD.

Schtoop,
I'm sorry if you've already been over this but it seems like you don't have a VAR - haven't mentioned it lately anyway. Wouldn't that help?
How about a GPS tracker? Those aren't cheap, but I don't know what your financial situation is - of course I can tell you D is much more expensive, but that doesn't mean you have the cash on hand now.

Either way. ML says get a PI. Get a PI. I've been around here long enough to have noticed that when ML says to do something and you do it, good things happen. Ignore the advice and you're simply leaving your future to chance.

I think she'll leave. I really do, IF you have your [censored] together. Letter well written and available, suit case at the door, kids where you need them to be (not present). Go over everything here (and with your lawyer if you'll feel better) until you feel like when you execute the plan you've already done it before.

Your wife is literally out of control, of herself, and of her life. When you unload Plan B on her, in total control, with confidence and compassion (remember, it's not about mean-ness or being vindictive), I really believe she'll fall right in line. Remember, you're doing this to save what love you have left for her, so that you can build a new life together.

Go back to Scot's pages where she executed the plan B. Maybe other's can direct you to more posts with people in the same sitch.

Hang In.

opt

Couldn't agree more. Any woman who celebrates something with her buddies and lets her husband celebrate with the kids is missing something. Like a heart? Time to get serious, schtoop. Get PlanB set up, have an attorney on board, and toss her butt out. She's not in the frame of mind to be a wife.

OK, here the current situation.

Optimism busted me. I bought a VAR over a month ago, but have been too chicken-sh*t to use it (Sorry ML, I know you hate that). What was I scared of? Basically scared of getting caught. I know thats bull and I will install it now.

You think my wife is out of control? Couldn't agree more. ML talks about eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible (partying with friends) and I couldn't agree more. But, I've gone too long not enforcing that boundary that I can't suddenly take a stand. Plan B will give me the chance to set and enforce that boundary. In the meantime I have been documenting her time partying and away from the kids, giving her plenty of rope to hang herself.

Speaking of the kids, my oldest has a soccer tournament in a town and hour away on Saturday and it was just kind of assumed that I would take him (the younger son has a soccer game in town the same morning). Anyway, the older one complains to mom yesterday morning about her not being at his games (she does attend when its convenient), and she said she couldn't because she had to take the youngest to his game.

Later in MC, the counselor asked how she was feeling today and she said kind of sad, because of missing the soccer game and what my oldest told her. The MC then asked if she had discussed with me, and the answer to that was no. I told them both I was fine with her going on the road trip, where my wife had just assumed I would be "controlling" and want to go myself. I think the MC is starting to see that I'm not such a bad guy, she's just got this wayward idea in her head that justifies her A.

Anyway, I got the semen test strips in the mail yesterday and the results were very unsatisfying. There is small smudge of purple showing on the strips from one pair, but it didn't show up immediately like the instructions said and not bright at all like on the pictures on the website. I can't replicate the results to my satisfaction on other tries. It's more of the same, a strong indication, but not 100% proof. I will sit tight and see if I can't get a stronger positive. I will also continue to snoop and install the damn VAR.

ok, schtoop, this is a big part of the reason why your marriage is such a mess. You go along with very destructive behavior in order to avoid being called controlling. This is why your wife behaves like an alley cat; you have no boundaries whatsoever. It is alarming that you are seeing a counselor who would go along with this abortion.

Plan A does not stand for appeasment. A better solution would be to ask your wife to STOP going out alone because it is harmful to your marriage. It is not "controlling" to ask your wife to act like a wife and to engage in a program of recovery.

Why in the world would you be "fine" with your wife going on a road trip without you? That is INSANE. That is just an open invitation to an affair.

Why do you men allow women to run over you like this? Do you think it endears her to you? Let me assure you it does not. It is sickening. Women do not respect men they can gaslight and treat like doormats. Our love is very contingent upon the respect we feel.

Women want to see a man who has enough self respect to NOT allow us to run over him. We want to see someone who cares enough to FIGHT FOR US, not roll over at the first sign of trouble.

No, you misunderstand.

I am fine with her taking my oldest to an afternoon soccer tournament an hour away on Saturday. No overnight, no party buddies. That is the "road trip" I was referring to. It really is fine if she wants to take him instead of me. I may join her later with my 6 year old after his game is done.

schtoop, have you been painted as a "controlling" guy in this deal?

schtoop, that doesn't address my point, though. What about her nights out with her buddies ALONE away from you? I didn't misunderstand that you have no boundaries whatsoever when it comes to that.

Well, the die is cast.

Please don't lecture me about where I went wrong, it is what it is.

Confronted her about seeing the OM Saturday night and she admitted it (but it's not what I think, they only talked...GAG). Had a big blow up about her partying, sleeping, neglecting the kids, etc. I told her I can't go on living this way. Ended up blasting her with a "Happy f-ing Mother's day". If you're going to LB, go all out.

We both put on our best acting job on Sunday and let the kids celebrate Mother's day. Her parents even joined us as we grilled out and exchanged gifts. I made sure the kids had gift's, cards, and projects from school to give her, but nothing from me. I asked on the side if last night's blowup didn't affect her, and she said she was giving a couple of days to calm down after my "crazy rant".

Today we had our weekly MC session where I handed her and had her read the plan B letter:

OK, she read the letter during the MC session?

What was the response? What did you do after the meeting?

Thanks for responding, SoL.

The response was as anticipated. She refused to move out of the house. The idea of me moving out was never brought up.

Doing this in front of the MC was very helpful. His assessment was that we were very close to the tipping point, that we either come to an agreement on the conditions or we're at a point of irreconsileable differences and divorce or separation was the next step.

So we spent much of the session discussing exactly what the commitments were that I was looking for. His position was that he's seen couples go into divorce being not really clear on what they disagree about, which he hates to see. If we are going that way, he at least want's us to be clear on the exact issues that are the ones that we each can't live with or won't change.

The first commitment I asked for is NC ever again. Again, she justified it with "it was just once and we just talked." I responded with 1) there is no reason for me to believe you, and 2) It wouldn't matter anyway. Any contact is just as hurtful and puts us back to square one with any restoration we were trying to do. Pretty cut and dried there.

The second is a commitment to work on the marriage, enough of the "trying to find out if I want to try." She responded about how she's been coming to counseling, but I pointed out how she does none of what the counselor asks at home (sharing her feelings) and how her actions don't point to "trying". Again, the counselor was helpful in pointing out that we are at a crossroad right now, and that she has to choose staying together or parting, and that staying together was going to involve a lot of hard work that needs to be done. Kind of soft, "sh@t or get off the pot" message.

Then the biggie was on lifestyle changes, where I was pretty vague in the letter. I detailed her continued contact with the OM and the single lifestyle she's been living (partying with single friends to all hours of the morning) and how combined with all the supermom stuff she does means she never around for the kids.

Like all good waywards, she tries to muddy the water and says how she offered to quit the gym or church show, but I that I had told her not to. Of course, these activities are not the issue. It's when she's already been gone several nights a week, then chooses to go out again leaving her kids on the weekend nights, then having to sleep the weekend days away because she's too tired. I also brought up the conditions that led up to the affair, the continued contact with the OM, and how this lifestyle does nothing to give me assurances that it won't continue or happen again.

So then she comes in with the weak, "I'm not going to give up my friends, that's the only thing that makes me feel free or alive." I responded that I'm not asking her to, that there are a million other activities she can do with her friends that don't involve being at the bars or being out until 2:00 in the morning.

Now we got to the heart of the matter. The MC asked if going out to the bars late at night with her "friends" was something I could not live with, to which I replied in the affirmative, especially in the context of further contact with the OM. So then he asked her if it was something she refused to give up. She never answered that directly, instead muddied the water with more talk of not giving up her friends or giving up other activities. So he again asked if this was the stumbling block that neither of us could work around.

She asked if she had to give an answer now.

There it was right on the table, in the light for all of us to see. She would rather tear apart our family than give up her selfish, single, midlife crisis lifestyle.

We ended with me giving in once again. The MC asked if we should schedule a session for next week. I told my wife the ball was in her court. Again she asked if she had to give an answer now. The MC stepped in and told us to take the week to see if we could come to an agreement we both could live with on the lifestyle changes, or more clearly define our differences. We agreed and scheduled the appointment.

Unless a minor miracle happens, I'm going to assume it's on to plan D. She's going to try to play the martyr about giving up her good activities, and try to compromise me into agreeing to some continuation of the partying. I cannot be sucked in to that kind of compromise, or it's right back to square one and doormat city for me.

I'm at peace with plan D. She never had any intention of making it work anyway.

If you get a bulldog attorney and go for primary custody using all the journaling you have about her going out every night, I think that might be the tipping point of her coming back. The prospect of losing her children may be enought to snap her out of the fog. Don't go for this "amicable divorce" crap. Go for what YOU want in the D, and then go dark. I'd also remind her that if she gets a divorce, she'll either not have custody of her kids, or not be able to go out anyway. You aren't going to be there as a built in babysitter anymore.

Thanks, jmwc95. That is my plan.

I have my lawyer picked out and have had one phone conversation with him last week. I will call again today to make sure I am officially his client. I don't want my wife getting this one.

One last thing from our MC session. He, of course, counseled about the danger of ultimatum's and how they are going to be viewed as me once again trying to "control" her.

I responded that I was very well aware of what I was doing. I didn't consider these as ultimatum's for her, but boundaries for myself and what I was willing to live with. I stated that if I'm stuck having to live with or tolerate these destructive behaviors with no prospect for change, then I have no one to blame but myself. This was a chance for me to clearly define the circumstances I can live with, for myself.

Controlling her was never the problem. It was love busters and not meeting her needs. You don't phrase it as controlling. You state your personal boundaries and let her choose whether or not she will respect those boundaries.

And you got what you paid for. You used the Plan B letter in the wrong way (as in not the way Dr. Harley recommends). You could have spent the money on a coaching session with MB and got way more for your money.

Did you read Surviving an Affair or ANY of the articles on this site? I don't know what plan you are following, I can't recognize it.

Meg's right, Schtoop, your MC is going to lead you right over the cliff and it's a long drop. It's not that he doesn't care, he just knows no other way.


Your 'impass' is exactly where I was on Jan 20. Reading your post above was taking me back there to a palpable degree.

One more straw after that was the last straw for me.

In retrospect, however, I do see how Plan B could have been effective. She'll string you along forever if you let her, that's just what waywards do. Period.


Unless you move out (or pack her stuff and move her out), the above quote is an empty threat, and serves to bolster WW's resolve that she can do just about whatever she wants.

Plan B is NOT more expensive than divorce. Trust me on that. Since it sounds like your heading for D anyway (as I said, you're situation is eerily similar to mine), you have NOTHING to lose by going dark.

I feel for you Schtoop.

Opt

Opt,

Thanks, I have read parts of your thread before, but will go back and read it more thoroughly now. Finding similar situations to my own is really where this board is the most helpful.

There will be no plan B. My wife will not move out and I will not move out and leave my boys under any circumstances short of a court order. The only way I can "go dark" is to move out, and I will NOT separate myself from my boys. Period.

That does indeed leave us right on the brink. Of course I know that brinksmanship is not MB's, but it is where I am right now. Truth be told, I'm fully prepared for plan D and would almost welcome it at this point. No, the plan B letter was not used in the proper way. But, it is my final attempt to establish some boundaries for myself, which admittedly is hard for me to do. I have been a people-pleaser all my life and seem to gravitate to the position of doormat.

We talked a little last night and I think she actually blinked. She wants to stay together right now for the kids (I think the reality that she will lose them for at least 50% of the time is sinking in). She gave me a [censored]-and-bull story about meeting the OM just so he could return a movie he borrowed for his kids (he is divorced), and that it was no big deal. So, I explained to her how big of a deal it really is (not like she doesn't know) and if she would really force a divorce for the return of a movie? I know I'm being gaslighted and she knows that I know.

I also think I've gotten through to her about how much she is neglecting the boys. The last three mornings she has actually woken up in time to interact with the boys for a few minutes as they get ready for school. Her sleeping so much has always been a huge issue. She normally sleeps until the last possible moment in the mornings before rushing out with barely a goodbye for the kids as she runs out the door.

Then we tiptoed into the issue of lifestyle. Again, she says she won't give up her friends and for the umpteenth time I said that I'm not asking her to. She was prepared for this and informed me that her friend (the single party friend) was going to come over to our house on Friday evening and the were going make appetizers and I'm sure cocktails. I told her that was good and I would love for our house to be an inviting place where all friends were welcome.

I also let her know in a non-judgmental way that I wasn't ready to interact with this friend, that it was my issue and not hers, and If it was OK to make myself or the kids scarce. She said that I could, but didn't have to. I also let her know that if we manage to stay together, I would do my best to get past this with her friend, but right now was just too soon.

I know my wife is trying to set me up, and wanted me to object to the friend coming over to prove I'm demanding too much of her. I was careful not to fall in that trap. We ended with me putting the ball in her court, asking her to define the lifestyle changes that we both could live with.

Meanwhile, what should I do on Friday evening?

1) Take the kids to dinner and a movie and leave the two friends to enjoy themselves? I'm not sure this is the right move, she may later point to me being the one who caused her not to be interacting with the boys, not her.

2) Leave her to watch the kids while her friend is over? She said that would be fine, also.

3) Suck it up and be present also? I'm sure I could be at least cordial with the friend, but I don't want to overdo it and come across as fake. They would drink and talk on the porch in the kitchen while me and the boys carry on as normal.

Like I say, there was a flurry of texts back and forth with this friend yesterday, so I'm sure this is some kind of test or trap. How I respond is critical. I'm leaning towards #3.

Schtoop,

How many times do I have to tell you? LEGAL SEPARATION. That is your path to plan B.

Is this the same "friend" who condones and facilitates her adultery?

This friend told me that she disapproved of the affair. But, she did know about it and she does facilitate the party girl lifestyle.

jmwc95, I am going to discuss legal separation with a lawyer as soon as I can meet with him. I'm not sure how it works in my state, and doesn't it still need to be agreed to by both parties? Like I said, I am not separating from my boys. Tell me more about how you think it would work.

Schtoop, I agree with Jim, I would get a legal separation and see if you can get your wife moved out. Even so, separated couples do share custody. You will probably get 50/50. I would also suggest filing on grounds of adultery if you can in your state. That gives you a legal advantage in some states and increases the chances that you get the house and primary custody of the kids.

As far as having the "friend" in your house, I would be against that, because she is an enemy to you and to your children. Having her over just adds insult to injury and does nothing to resolve your marriage problems. I wouldnt let her around my kids if I were you. That is disrespectful to your kids. Exposing you and your kids to scummy people in order to avoid being called "controlling" is not a solution and will not endear you to her. It will just embolden her to manipulate you further. She would have alot more respect for you if you protected your family from her creepy friends.

Plan Appeasement will gain you absolutely nothing except an enabled, emboldened WAYWARD who is hell bent on destroying your marriage. Your job should be to protect yourself and your children from that, not to go along with it just because you are scared of being called "controlling."

Two things,

Legal separation is not recognized in my state, so that's why I need more information about it. My state is also a no-fault state, so there is no filing on grounds of adultery.

Second, the friend is not that scummy and its her (the friend's) right to enjoy the single lifestyle if that's what she wants. This friend actually ran the daycare that both of our kids went to when they were young, so it's out of line to say that I suddenly need to protect my family from her. She had been trusted with our kids for years. My boundary is not for my wife to dissociate from the friend, just don't join her in the single lifestyle. If I don't allow the friend in our house, that will just feed into her justification for meeting this friend at bars.

Third, if it comes down to a choice between the friend and our marriage, the marriage loses with 100% certainty. I want to make sure you're not telling me to fight that battle.

Whoops, that's actually three things.

Then the alternative is to file for divorce, get separated and then drag out the proceedings. OR to live with your abusive wife in a non marriage marriage for the rest of your life.


Did this "friend" call you and inform you of your wife's affair? Does this friend "be-friend" a married woman who is having an adulterous affair? Ask yourself what kind of person does that? What kind of person hangs out with a woman who commits adultery and won't lift a finger to tell her spouse? I will tell you who. A SCUMBAG. An enemy of your marriage and your childrens family.



You are out of line to allow your kids to associate with her. She is an enemy to them. It really is sickening that woman cares so little for the families of the children she watches.


You have no boundaries, schtoop, so lets not pretend like you do. A boundary is something that is backed up by a consequence. There are NONE. Your wife knows she can come and go and do anything and you will do nothing. Except send her cute letters. Boundaries are backed up my action, yours are backed up by nothing. If you tell a wayward you "won't live like this" and then you DO live like this, then your talk of "boundaries" is a fart in the wind.


Yes, I am telling you to fight this battle. The POINT IS that she has chosen her friends and her single lifestyle over your marriage. NOW, what are you going to do about it? Your answer, to my amazement, is to faciliate and ENABLE that state of things rather than work against it.

Will inviting her "friends" over for drinks make her choose her marriage over her friends? Will appeasing her destructive lifestyle make her choose her marriage over her friends? Will ENABLING her and playing host to her scumbag friends make her choose her marriage over her friends?

No, it will not. The problem, schtoop, is that your goal is to appease your wayward wife AT ALL COSTS rather than save your marriage. Your actions are harmful to your marriage, not helpful. If you enable and appease someone whose goal is the destruction of your marriage, then you will end up with a..........destroyed marriage.

You are, by your inaction, committing to care for her by tolerating her marriage-wrecking choices. This gives your wife unrealistic expectations of entitlement that she can stay married regardless of her willingness to care in return. Neglect and abuse characterize such marriages, as you can see.

Schtoop, I realize I am probably wasting my time telling you this, but I hope that others here can see what Plan Appeasement gets you: NOTHING, but a crumbling marriage.

Then file for D while letting her know the door is still open. Continue to document, and if you get primary custody of the children, she might not want to go through with it. Keep documenting and discuss things with your lawyer.

So, do you agree with Jim, Melody?

This does seem like the only path out of plan Appeasement.

I agree you should do this. And let her know that the door is ONLY OPEN if she ends her affair and commits to repairing the marriage. [and her current lifestyle is very destructive to your marriage, schtoop - it is her lifestyle that led to the affair] The problem I see here is that you have given her the impression that her catting around like a single woman is acceptable behavior. The fact that she does place her "friends" and her single life above her marriage and her children is something to turned around, not accommodated.

Here is how I would approach this if I were in your shoes, schtoop. I would go to her and tell her you have given this alot of thought and realize you have made a mistake by agreeing to some of the things you have agreed to, such as her single lifestyle. You find her single lifestyle hurtful and destructive to your marriage. You have no interest in being around a "friend" who helped her keep such a destructive secret from you. A real friend to you and your kids would have come and told you.

[I am sorry, Schtoop, but I don't have a SINGLE "friend" who would allow me to have an affair. Anyone who would is not my "friend."]

Tell her you will give her an opportunity to regain your trust, though. If not, then you wouldn't be interested in going forward because you know it is not going to work any other way. Her lifestyle has led to her affair and it is too painful for you to endure. Here is what it will take to gain your trust and recover the marriage:

1. an end to the single lifestyle. Leisure time should be spent together, not apart. going out alone is what has led to her affairs and a continuation of that practice will not gain your trust, it will erode it further

2. socialize only with couples with whom you are both friends. Any friends who knew about the affair and didn't tell you are not friends of the marriage. Association with such people make you rightly insecure and does nothing to rebuild your trust.

3. Make your life an open book to me

4. commit to creating a romantic marriage where we are in love, using the MB program

Then put the ball in her court. Tell her you don't want her to grudgingly agree. "If you don't want to do those things, I will fully understand if you reject this plan. But this is what it will take to keep me in the marriage. If you don't commit to this, then I need to move towards a divorce."

If she says, "you are trying to control me!!!!" [the favorite refrain of every abusive wayward wife] then respond with: "oh no! I would not do that. I insist your partipation be entirely VOLUNTARY. It is all up to you."


Essentially, I am saying to lay out a CLEAR path of recovery to her and give an opportunity to come on board. Then, if she won't get on board, you are better off filing.

schtoop, the thing here is that if you lower the bar, as you have, she will just live DOWN to your expectations. If you raise the bar, then she either lives up to your expectations or she leaves. At this point, you have nothing to lose. But continuing as you have is leaving her with false expectations of entitlement.

A lot of WSs like having their cake and eating it too. They manipulate you to prevent from having to make a decision. Your WW does NOT want to get divorced. She just wants to continue her current lifestyle. Who will pay the bills? Who will watch the kids while she parties till 2am? She won't have a husband to do that for her anymore. A lot of times, the WS starts to work on the marriage once the BS steps up and files. He who cares the least holds the power in the relationship. Up until this point it has been her. I doubt she will like losing control of that. Do you know when my WW agreed to NC? When I told her I was done, and I set up an appointment with my lawyer to file for D. Then she started crying and agreed to NC. She didn't agree to work on the marriage, but she agreed to NC. I probably should have even held out for more.

Thanks, you've given me a lot to think about.

Hi Schtoop,
How are things going?

Thanks for salvaging this thread from page 8 hell.

Things are still in limbo here, I see them as teetering on the brink, while my wife seems to be ignoring or blocking the whole situation out.

It's been a busy few days. Friday night my wife had her friend and married friend next door over for a light dinner and wine. My oldest son had a friend spending the night, so I took the kids out for burrito's and Iron Man 2. The girls were still talking when I got home, so I got the kids to sleep and watched some TV before the party broke up. The question remains, is this a genuine effort to adjust her lifestyle, or is just a temporary diversion?

Saturday was very busy. I take my youngest to his soccer game, then shortly after noon my wife has to leave for church to get ready for the big show. Every quarter they put on a big show with music, drama, and such for kids that is a huge production. She is the host for this show and spends a lot of time on stage. They did a great job and I was sure to let her know just how well she did.

Sunday I took the boys out on my boat for fishing and beach fun. My wife had her stepfather come over and they pressure washed the house and the porch. I asked my wife a couple of times if she would like to come with us on the boat, but she said she had this planned with her stepfather for a week now, which was news to me. We grilled a nice dinner, then crashed.

So, with all of this going on there has been no relationship talk at all since Wednesday or Thursday night. On my way out the door this morning I reminder her that we do need to talk and that I would like to this evening. She agreed.

Through all of this my boys have been my refuge. I cherish every moment that I spend with them and I know that they love me unconditionally. My relationship with the oldest (9) has actually strengthened in the last few months, as I have learned something about relating to people emotionally from our MC and it has really helped with him and me.

Unfortunately, it is not an adjustment in favor of your marriage. The problem is that you lead completely separate, incompatible lifestyles and that has not changed.

Unfortunately, Mel is right on. You spent the weekend with the boys, she spent it doing whatever. Not good.

And this, my friend, is the most important aspect of the whole disaster with your WW. YOU are growing as a person, and your boys are benefiting. Always keep that in mind, especially on the really dark days. It will keep you going.

Schtoop

Your wife having drinks at home is a start. It means she is not rocking in at 2 in the morning.

But what you described does seem very independent behavior.

Is it necessary for you to leave when your wife has a few friends over?

Would it have been possible for you to have joined your wife and friends for a drink when you came home?

I think it is good that your wife socializes at home, but you do not want to be the stranger in your home.

You are right on Jack.

I was just in no mood this weekend to put on a happy face around her friends, so I pursued my own IB behavior with the kids.

I have also not been in much of a plan A mode since the latest round of broken NC and the confrontation about it. In fact, I made more than my share of DJ's at that time, kind of like the lid coming off a volcano.

One thing that's come out of this, it's pretty clear that she is scared of the prospect of divorce. The fact that I'm not going to make it easy or friendly (she's told me this), and the fact that she likely won't get a very favorable settlement (I think she suspects this) is holding her back.

We went round and round about what constitutes lifestyle changes and have come to a shaky understanding. I suspect she wants to continue in this limbo of a marriage with me to be her live-in nanny while she gets to do whatever she wants, so she'll tone things down for a while to keep me around.

So, if SickofLimbo can do it, then I can too. It's going to be one final push of plan A until my lovebank is so overdrawn I can't take it anymore. I will try to tone down my own independent behavior and avoid lovebusters at all costs. I can do pretty well at avoid LB's from day to day, but it's when we get in a big confrontation (which has been about once a month) that they come out. I will avoid all confrontations and meet the EN's she lets me to the best of my ability.

In the meantime, I will continue snooping and if there's contact I will get proof like my lawyer advised. There will be no more confrontations, I will play dumb and happy until the day the papers are served (and even later).

I think as long as you have the will and the strength to continue the Plan A in your circumstance, what do you have to lose? It is hard though. You do need to watch yourself and do NOT LB no matter what. One LB wipes out a bunch of deposits. When you get to the point of almost losing all love for her or the D is final, then it's time to quit.

You have to be very self-aware and monitor your own feelings throughout. Especially with the no expectations.

Edit: I have to add that it is more difficult to do when I am at home. It's a lot easier while I'm living away.

Thanks, SoL.

Since last week she has been around every night and been more engaged with the kids.

During our confrontation, and again in MC, I characterized her being away so much as "borderline neglect" of the kids. Although absolutely true, It was a huge lovebuster.

Someone needed to step up and tell her this, so I bit the bullet and was the one knowing things were going to be pushed right to the brink. As much as it made love bank withdrawals, I think it did open her eyes a little to what she was doing to the kids at home. For their sake I'm glad I did it.

Because that's the thing, she really is a wonderful mother to the boys. She's very involved in their school and also with the church, and they love her to death when she's home and engaged with them. She's the one who has guided most of the decisions on school, day care, etc. That's the primary reason I'm fighting so hard for this marriage.

I know exactly what you mean about the deterioration of the 'motherly instincts'. My WW was a great mother and seemed her happiest with the kids. Now it's like pulling teeth to get her to do any more than the basic needs for them. It is incredibly sad, especially when the boys verbalize that they wish "mom would do more stuff with us".

I have confronted Pinky as well and she did improve a little bit, but she is far from where she was. She was also confronted by her parents too. In her case, it wasn't so much as being out of the house partying, but more of isolating herself in the spare room and being on the computer all the time.

I think you did the right thing by bringing it up. Not sure how you said it, but hopefully you led with "It really hurts me to see your lack of interaction with the kids...." The careful wording is important when confronting.

I agree with this assessment. And she will continue to do this as long as she is able. She wants this to become a way of life and the longer she is allowed to abuse you and your family, the higher her expectations of entitlement will become. Women do not love men they don't respect and women do not respect men they can run over. It is sickening. We have disgust for men like that. So don't adopt the roll over and play dead plan; that will avail you nothing but disgust.

The best thing that you can do from your end is to cause as much trouble as possible in the affair. That means continual exposure, contacting the OM whenever there is contact, confronting her each and every time you find evidence of an affair. She should be told that the kids miss her every time this comes up. She is not a "good mother" and that pretense should be lost.

Another important factor to keep in mind is this: Plan A is not intended to be a way of life for conflict avoiders and men who are scared to lose their wives. Plan A is only intended to be a SHORT TERM PLAN to end the affair/wayward life until the WS will commit to the marriage. That is 3-4 WEEKS for women, UP TO 6 months for men.

If I were you, I would start making plans for Plan B. Check with a lawyer and see what your legal rights are. Start separating your finances, getting your Plan B letter prepared, selecting an intermediary, etc. I can't remember how long you have been in Plan A, but it seems unlikely you will be one of the 15% whose affairs end in Plan A [and the spouse commits to recovery] and Plan B will be warranted.

To be truthful, I am starting to become concerned that you will become like a handful of board members [always MEN] who have grown bitter and full of hate because they have been in Plan C for 7 to 10 years. They avoided conflict for all those years because they are scared to lose their wives, so they have tolerated the intolerable all this time. In the time they could have gone into Plan B, been divorced [or yanked their very entitled wayward wives off the fence], they could have been happily remarried to a faithful wife.

Conflict avoidance comes at a very, very high price.

schtoop, when was D-Day?

To answer some of your questions and give some background,

D-Day was Jan. 24, 2010. I found this website about a week later.

You're right about me be a conflict avoider, have been all my life. I'm also someone who is very poor at showing emotion or letting others know how I feel. That's my part of getting us to where our marriage was before the affair. As I avoided conflict and let her dictate most facets of our lives, the resentment built up inside of me until I was constantly putting out negative vibes and body language. While not "controlling" in the sense of forcing my will on the large life decisions, I fought back by trying to dictate the hundreds of little things that make up daily life. That could wear on anyone.

While not the conflict avoider as much as me, my wife was the same about recognizing and sharing her feelings. So, while we rarely fought openly, both of us pulled back until the marriage was in textbook withdrawal.

So, you are right on about me growing bitter and being in plan C for 7-10 years.

I will redouble my efforts at plan A, but in the meantime not sit back and roll over when her behavior turns destructive.

I'm still struggling with how to enact a plan B. I have a separate bank account all ready to go. She flatly refuses to leave the house, and that is also something I am not going to ever give in on. I think both of us have received legal counsel not to leave the house. There is no legal separation in Florida. So how does one plan B under these circumstances?

You file for divorce, [on grounds of adultery if you can] asking for possession of the house, get her out, and then drag things out. We have that same legal set up here in Texas. Even though it is a no fault state, you can file on grounds and get a legal advantage [custody, possession of the home] if there is adultery. In your case, the fact that your wife is NOT a good mother and she leads a single swinger, adulterous lifestyle will work in your favor.

hope_eternal is doing this very thing right now. She filed for divorce and got him out of the house. That is how you do it.

File for D on the grounds of adultery and let her know there is a path back if she agrees to your plan B conditions. You see, your WW want to have her cake and eat it too. Right now, she thinks you won't divorce her. If you start taking the step and start exposing her to the consequences, she might straighten out. He who cares the least has all the power in a relationship. If she thinks you care less, then she'll be forced to make a decision.

p.s. the longer this drags out, the more entrenched in this wayward mindset she becomes.

Very good.

That very plan is what is coming together in my mind. I will ride this thing out a little longer, see if her changes are sincere or a temporary diversion, and redouble my efforts at plan A.

If it's just a diversion, then I will lawyer up and hit her out of the blue.

What changes, schtoop? There are no changes here that would facilitate the recovery of your marriage. The only change I see is that she is more entitled and more emboldended. There is nothing here.

You are almost at the maximum end of Plan A and nothing has changed and nothing looks like it WILL change. It takes 3-4 weeks to file and get all your ducks in a row. If she does make a REAL CHANGE and commit to your marriage in that time, you can always back off. But putting this off is not going to help.

Well, another week and I just seem to be riding things out right now.

My wife has been around just about every night. Friday night she went to a "jewelry party" with her friend. They came back at 10:30 (when the party was over) and spent about an hour visiting at our house and going through her jewelry collection. I was actually cordial with the friend.

No bars, no heavy drinking, no lying. Is she really trying? Or is this a diversion?

Sunday night we spent about 2 hours in conversation on everything from the kids summer plans, to future schools, to the oil spill. No heavy relationship talk. She talks about the future like there's no uncertainty, so I don't know what to think.

Actually, I do know what to think. She is now in the mindset that she doesn't want a divorce (mostly because of the kids), but doesn't want to fully commit to the marriage either. Whatever the current mindset, it is a great opportunity to plan A as well as possible and try to change the mindset.

I'm out of town with work until Wednesday, so I won't have much to report.

Seems like she's trying, but be wary. Mrs. Linus has times when she's really trying also, but it's almost as if she gets burned out and withdraws/reverts back. Take the good while you can.

I'm sure that you're doing a lot of good here. Conversation is probably in her top 5 EN's, so you're meeting that need and making $LB deposits. Keep it up!

Yes! You get it! Except that YOU cannot change the mindset, only she can. Plan A, Plan A, Plan A.

Schtoop - I see a lot of good things in this post.

Well, I'm done!

We all knew that my wife had no boundaries, nor was she remotely interested in changing, nor had she put any effort at all into trying to recover.

Well, over the Memorial day weekend she went to a good friend's wedding in a town several hours away. She went along with her two favorite party buddies. From a few text messages and a facebook post, it seems like she hit it off with some guy there.

If that wasn't enough, when she got back home she had a FB "friend" request from another younger guy who was at the wedding, a cousin of the bride (I guess she doesn't know I have her FB password). It seems she didn't talk with him much there, hardly remembered him, but in the last few days a FB romance has blossomed including exchanging naked photos and phone sex.

This guy isn't even that smooth, but it does seem like he's done this kind of internet courting before. Probably some kind of predator.

I'm done. No more plan A, no plan B. It's straight to the bulldog attorney's office this morning to put down a retainer.

This is the turning point. I no longer wish to recover this marriage. I made tons of mistakes with plan A, couldn't pull off a plan B, but I'm damn sure going to get plan D right.

Like I said, I know I made a ton of mistakes and was slow to listen to the advice here, but I am convinced that nothing I did would have changed her mindset anyway. I am at peace.

Watch it, now she'll probably make an effort to not get divorced. You should have been this tough before.

Sorry about the turn of events, schtoop. The most important part of your post, I think, is that you're at peace with your decision. That's critical, because Plan D is final and will be difficult for you.

I cannot say I disagree. I think you've put up with a lot, and she's probably not going to change.

Oops, all her facebook messages are suddenly erased?

Good thing I made print-outs of the whole lurid conversation and saved the photos he sent.

Lawyer wants $7,500 retainer and I have a consultation set up Monday morning.

We have a MC session this afternoon. Should I sit through the whole thing and play dumb? Or let her know the gig is up?

If you have all the info you needed saved up, I would let her know the gig is up during the session. See how she reacts. IF you have desire whatsoever to save the marriage, I would let her know you are done and it will take a lot of convincing on her part to get you to stay. You can just give her the list of conditions (like a plan B letter) at the marriage counselor's and then plan B her in the house.

I would let her know the gig is up BEFORE the MC session.
Why bother going?

I would cancel it. You will be wasting your time if you sit there silently. And if you tell your plans, your wife will have the support of a counselor to undermine your plans since she doesn't understand the mindset of a wayward.

A better plan, IMO, would be to set your wife down tonight and give her your conditions for staying in the marriage. Lay out a strict plan with firm boundaries, starting the conversation with "i know about your new boyfriend and am not willing to live like this any longer. This is what it will take to keep me in this marriage:

1. no opposite sex friends
2. no leisure time spent apart
3. complete and total transparency - followed by historical honesty confirmed by a polygraph test
4. committment to the Marriage Builders program [do the online program where they give you a coach and daily access to Dr Harley]

Lay out the path for her and give her the chance to accept or reject it. If she balks - like I expect her to - and plays the control card "NO LEISURE TIME APART???!! YOU ARE TRYING TO CONTROL ME!! " just say,

"oh no, I am NOT trying to control you at all! This HAS to be entirely voluntary or it will not work. It is up to you to accept or reject it."

When she rejects it by playing the "you are are trying to control me" wayward wife card tell her you are sorry she has rejected but you must take further action in order to protect you and your children and will be contacting an attorney.

Before you do this, I would expose her affair[s] to your children. Your wife is very, very wayward and leaving them ignorant of the facts leaves them vulnerable to her lies. Asking a WAYWARD to tell them the truth is nonsense that will only result in a scene. They need the unimpeded TRUTH from their only sane parent, not a pack of rationalizations and lies from a wayward.

After you are done with her and the kids, I would tell everyone what she has done. Do a nuclear exposure.

DON'T GO to that marriage counselor. She will just kick you down the stairs and help your WW undermine you.

Going to the MC will cause more harm than good.

Good advice with one caveat.

I do not care to save the marriage anymore. It is unsaveable, she is unchangeable. I took things to the very brink just two weeks ago with the same boundaries. She has made her choice.

I'm doing now what is in my best interest and the children's best interest.

Good for you, schtoop. God Bless.

I see I wasted my time again, didn't I? How does the fact that you are done change a single, solitary word I just said?

p.s. I don't believe you are "done" either. You just posted you were going to a marriage counselor today so your actions don't match your words. I think as soon as she throws you some crumbs, you will back off again as you have before. GROUNDHOG DAY!

Why would you bother going to the MC if you are truly done? With a $7,500 retainer looming wouldn't you be better off saving your money by cancelling MC? By the way, that is a huge retainer. You can find good attorney's that expect half of that amount up front.

To be continued on the divorce board...

Makes sense...
Why go to Plan B when you DESERVE better than your WW. Wo is me, pity me....

Why not just give up because she'll never change? You're right, she'll never change...as long as she has her drink of choice in hand.

What have you done to take the drink of the day away from your WW? Show how stellar life could be without it (Plan A)?

Go D, why do you need a forum though? $7,500.00 to start out should get you what YOU want..

Why?

Because no matter how bad the marriage, once one partner decides to cheat, that's the "get-out-of-marriage-free" card.

Sure, this is Marriage Builders. And for those who want to recover, there is support here.

But where is it written that one MUST recover? It comes down to a personal decision. Schtoop has reached that.

I can understand where schtoop's coming from. But then again, schtoop, if you WANT to save the marriage, then PlanB is in order. If you have truly given up and have NO feelings for WW anymore, then skip PlanB, skip MC, and go to D.

Maybe a few days 'cooling off period' will help.

Think of the kids.

I bet if schtoop got real tough, pushed forward with the divorce, plan B'ed her in the house, but let his WW know the door was cracked if she shaped up and agreed to his PBL conditions, his WW would slowly crawl back through the door. I don't think his WW ever wanted to get divorced. She just needed a massive shove off the fence. Then you can see which side she decides to climb back on.

Either way, he should probably expose this OM to his family and friends and well as his WW to her family, friends, and his children. Then push forward and see what happens. If she comes crawling back and he still doesn't want to stop the divorce, well, that still his perrogative.

OHHHH!! Major mea culpa on my part. I thought exposure had been done! I totally missed that.

Schtoop - you GOTTA GOTTA GOTTA expose.

It is the get out of jail free card. How many BS posting on the SAA forum has this card in their pocket? But here we are.

Schtoop may have reached that point. It is a personal decision, made how long after the latest developments?

A few things, then I will continue this on the D board.

1) I (me, schtoop) do not want to recover any more. My wife has always been somewhat entitled, but all the lying, sneaking, selfish, entitled behavior over the last year has left my love bank permanently withdrawn. This is my choice now and divorce is what I'm choosing. I do not love her and am starting to work toward emotional detachment so that she doesn't even bother me anymore.

2) This may be a giant shove off the fence, but I know how stubborn, prideful, and vindictive she is by nature. There is NO chance she would consider crawling back through the door. I'm sure the deal is just as done on her side of the fence.

3) This decision is as close to final as you can get, and I treated it that way before pushing the button. I am not going to cling to any false hope during the divorce process. I thought my marriage was supposed to be "til death do us part", but found out I couldn't control that once we drifted so far apart. I can control the finality of divorce.

schtoop, I'll be the first one to support you in your decision to divorce. I don't even agree with all the people here who say their vow "for better or for worse" includes sticking with it till death even through adultery. My vows DON'T include that in "for worse," and I don't think anyone else said or meant that, either.

I do think you are lying to yourself a bit if you tell yourself you did everything you could to preserve the marriage. I could be wrong. But that's your call, and your decision. You don't HAVE to do everything you can to preserve marriage to an adulteress.

He did it for OM#1. He just found out about OM#2 this week. That's why he has decided he's done.

Oh, and you need to at least let your oldest know what his mom and dad are divorcing. He is going to be the one most affected by this divorce and your kids need to know what a good example of a functional relationship is, even if it isn't yours.

And again, I ask..'so what'?

Honestly? From my perspective? There will never be an OW#2 in my marriage because if one turned up, I'd be on the D train not more than 30 seconds later.

I do NOT have the intestinal fortitude to recover a M again.

That's me, of course. And it may be Schtoop.

YMMV.

I can state for sure that there will never again be a recovery from an affair in our marriage. I can't guarantee there won't be another affair but I can guarantee there will not be another Plan A and Recovery.

I'm not doing THAT again...

But in our case, we both have MB tools now, so if it happens again, it will be because one of us has decided to stop using the tools. At that point there isn't much point to it anymore.

Mark

Me too

Linus

Schtoop,

The decision is yours, as you know. I support you either way. If you pack your stuff and move to the D boards, keep in touch over here too.

Schtoop,
Sorry I didn't catch this til tonight. I'm sorry about OM#2. I know how you feel, you know my sitch and the resemblances to yours. I certainly can't fault you for going D, if you follow through with that; I'd be a total hypocrite if I did. I also just want to say to make sure you're sure you're sure. To that end, I also wouldn't fault you if you changed your mind, nor would many here, I bet; as long as you commit to doing what needs to be done to address your WW as the WW she is in such a way that you are protecting yourself (e.g. Plan B).

I think I've told you before, Plan B isn't that much different than Plan D except for the goal. Do you really, really, really want out of this marriage? Was there really never a time when it was good? Is there really no chance to get back to that place and even better?

Not trying to give you a hard time, Schtoop. These are questions you will ask yourself everyday for a long time during the D process - I do.

opt

To answer some of your questions:

Yes, I really, really want out of this marriage.

It's not so much that it's OM#2, because what I caught her in was little more than anonymous cyber/phone sex. Couple that with the meeting yet another guy there that she was "sad we didn't have time to get to know each other better, we will have to find a way to get together again". She's not just wayward, she is convinced she's SINGLE again.

I'm not sure the marriage was ever that "good", but also don't know if that's my own fog due to the pain and anger I feel now. I know it hasn't been good in many years.

I know that I loved the idea of having a family that I could be proud of and that kind of blinded me to just how much we had drifted apart. I never even thought about the possibility of divorce (before D-day) because of strength of the family tying us together. I now see it was under this false sense of security that I was not so concerned with actually meeting her EN's. My family was the crowning achievement of my life and right now I am extremely bitter at WW for destroying that.

There is no chance for me to ever regain respect, much less love, this woman again. And, as convinced as I am of this, my wife is even more so. That was actually her position from the start, it just took me 6 months of hell to join her there.

Hey schtoop, some of this definitely sounds familiar to me -- not considering the possibility of divorce, false sense of security, bitterness at WW for the destruction, etc. The introspection and honesty will do you good.


Yes, I have some experience here as well, schtoop. I've read that women typically come to these decisions first, and the man follows up at some point thereafter. I don't know how true it rings, but six months sounds about right. And you know a bit about my sitch and know it's similar to my world.

Six months of hell? Sounds like a fair characterization. Any silver linings? Anything you truly value from the experience and only wish to characterize it in the category of "all that you can't leave behind"? You want out and the momentum carrying you in that direction is material. Where do you want to go? I have found that the momentum is more effective if you are not merely trying to escape something (or someone), but have some vague concept of what your destination might look like.

TBC

This is really helpful, TBC.

I have put some thought into what my destination might look like. First, I'm actually looking forward to a simpler existence (that's all I will be able to afford, anyway). The amount she spends on cable TV, internet, Wii systems, games and movies galore, her scrapbook equipment, rooms full of toys that are rarely used, expensive trips, 52" flatscreen, all that will change and I'm looking forward to it.

Me and the boys will just have to amuse ourselves with actual activities and outdoor play rather than coexist in front of the TV.

My brother has been divorced for a couple of years now and claims he's happier than he's ever been in his life. He gets his share of time with his daughters and is a devoted father, yet has time for himself also. He will be a tremendous support and someone to model myself off of.

I also look forward to strengthening existing friendships and developing new ones. I have always been fairly reserved in that aspect, not trying very hard to cultivate my own friendships and just going along with the social activities and people my wife pulls into our world. I think I can grow a lot by developing my own social circle better.

I also learned a great deal from our MC. I have never allowed myself to feel or acknowledge my own emotions, which carried over to an inability to empathize with others. The awareness and techniques he's taught me have already paid off big time in my relationship with my oldest son, who is quite emotional by nature.

Glad I could be of some assistance.

There seems to be quite a few of us that are simultaneously seeking seets on the 'D-Train'. Window or aisle????

It's good to see repeatedly use the term 'forward'. It will, indeed, help you as you continue your journey.

I have heard others talk about a degree of happiness, post-D, then ever experienced previously. I definitely make note of those comments, but always refer back to the disclaimer that every person is different and every relationship is different. I guess the bottom line is that there are no guarantees, okay?

I do see what you're saying, though.

TBC

Wow. I don't know how I ended up reading your story this morning, but I did. I am new (again) to the board but was here about 7 years ago after a 2nd D-day when I was flailing. I didn't stick around, but wish I would have. Your story has inspired me and I needed it today. Thank you for being brave enough to share it.

I hope things turn out well for you. You've definitely been through some rough stuff. I admire you for the approach you've taken and can honestly say that I would be taking the same road you have now chosen if I were in your shoes.

Good luck to you and your children. I wish you much happiness.

Schtoop,
I give you a lot of credit here for your self-awareness and honest assessment of the situation that is/was your marriage. It sounds to me like MB has helped you retain as much control as possible in a very chaotic environment (wife being wayward) and with that control you've managed to learn as much as possible and grow as a human. Toward the old self-actualization if I remember right from some psych classes in college.

I reviewed the first few pages of your thread - sorry, as you'll see, once separation occurred I have much less time on my hands, which has been nice in some ways. I couldn't get through the whole thread but it's uncanny the similarities that come up with us BH's. Almost wonder if it's cultural.

Well, if my journey continues to be similar at all, you have some relief to look forward to. Getting away from a wayward, especially having given it your all, is quite refreshing. There are plenty of other struggles, you know that. But at least you'll always know, bottom line, she chose to cheat; you didn't.

opt

Thanks, Opt.

I went back and re-read your thread and we do have a lot in common. Your comments, along with several others on this board, have been very helpful and I hope you continue to bring them.

In our final confrontation and decision to divorce, I told her she is now free to go when and where she will, see whoever she wants, as long as it does not come near the house or the kids. Curiously, her lawyer seems to have said something similar.

Last night I found her second affair phone in her purse (one that I have been searching for weeks on end). I knew she purchased it two or three months ago, as I found the receipt. She told me at the time that she had been tempted to use it, but instead gave it to a friend. I knew she was gaslighting at the time, but couldn't prove it. Now I know 100% that she has been wayward the whole time with no intention of trying. Makes the whole decision that much easier.

Hey schtoop.

Sorry about your sitch, but I think reading this last sentence helps. If that is, indeed, the truth, then that's a good thing.

Funny, but I had never heard the term 'gaslighting' until I found MB. Now I have a much more clear understanding of it.

"No intention of trying". Yeah, that makes marital R a little tough, doesn't it? I mean, how much water can Gunga Din truly really carry before getting utterly fatigued and flummoxed?

TBC

Following a bunch of your stories...betrayed men and women....and I seem to see a common thread leading to purchasing a ticket on the D express.

It's not so much the affair/infidelity itself. It appears to be the purposeful deceit and the fence sitting/cake eating. When the BS eventually discovers the wayward is in this only for his/herself, well then the D train beckons.

Can't blame you one bit.

Exactly the situation Plan B was designed to cope with.

I disagree. Maybe during an A and maybe the first A. The second, third, fourth...and so on? The continued lying, etc?

That is truly the "get out of marriage free" card.

OH, I believe that the first affair gives the BS the get of of marriage free card. It can be played at any time up until the time you begin to use it as leverage.

We'll debate this someplace else at a later time, if that's alright...

Mark