Melody,

Thanks for weighing in. Yes, I know full well about the MB's approach versus conventional counseling. Yes, I firmly believe that MB's IS the right approach.

I have bought the books and encouraged my wife to read them. They are on my dresser top as we speak. I have talked about some of the basic concepts, both to my wife and in counseling. I try my best to live by MB's principles now.

The problem is that there is no buy in from my wife. The fact that the push for MB's was coming from me was perceived as me being "controlling" yet again.

Right now, the only small victories I have is that she's still here, and that she is going to counseling. To his credit, our MC makes one valid point. My wife is so withdrawn right now that 1) She will not allow me to meet her most important EN's, and 2) Has absolutely no interest in meeting mine. Since the whole MB's concept is about meeting each other's EN's, it clearly is premature at this point.

Doctor Harley talks about the three stages of marriage: intimacy, conflict, and withdrawal. He states that for a marriage in withdrawal, it must pass back through the conflict stage before getting back to intimacy. In fact, it is seen as progress when a marriage moves from withdrawal to conflict, as painful as it may be. Our MC is trying to lead us through this process right now and is actually pretty good at what he does. So while it's not MB's, I'm hoping that there will be a tangible benefit to his approach.

Dr. Harley:


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3620_state.html

So, my best hope is that our MC can lead us to a place where she'll be receptive to MB's. In the meantime, I'm trying to do my best to be the lighthouse and avoid LB's.

She who cares the least, has the most power.

You may do well to read the articles in the newsletter portion of the Marriage Builder Discussion Board.

I think these in particular will hit you between the eyes and inspire you with a very specific timeline and plan to take back your power in the relationship:

Part 1 - When to Call it Quits

Part 2 - When to Call it Quits

Part 3 - When to Call it Quits

schtoop, but you are not avoiding lovebusters at all. You are going to counseling together and lovebusting each other. And paying for it. Your recent exercise of her giving you a litany of her grievances in a session of counseling reminded your W of why she dislikes you and her marriage and gives her more justification for her affair.

Past resentments were brought into the present which puts the potential of creating a romantic marriage farther and farther away. It is impossible to lovebust your way to marital happiness.

This is actually causing HARM to your marriage if you understand AT ALL how romantic relationships are created. I HAVE ONE using these concepts and KNOW this will impede your chances of ever having it. Your C doesnt know what he is doing. Your MC is not leading you any place except to a divorce.

You don't need your wife's buy in to get counseling from Steve Harley. He won't counsel you together anyway. If you called him, he would tell you what to say to get her on the phone so HE can sell her himself.

schtoop, you routinely don't take the advice given on this board from members who have saved their marriages, but I would implore you to take my advice on this. Your marriage is not going to survive many more of your mistakes.

Kayla, thanks for the links and this statement above is true without a doubt. One benefit of the 180 plan is that it takes back a little of that power, where a one-sided plan A does not.

As your links suggest, plan B may be the only thing left to shift the "power" back to where I can put these kind of boundaries in place. That's why I am making plan B plans. There is also a very good chance that plan B would blow the whole thing up, which Dr. Harley acknowledges.

Melody,
I know you come on strong and like to tell it like it is. I do value your opinion and advice.



You've made statements of this vein to me an many other posters often, and it smacks of emotional blackmail.

If my marriage (and many others) doesn't survive, it's because of many mistakes made by both partners leading up to the affair, and a HUGE mistake made by the wayward in having the affair. Add in a spouse who is unwilling to take any meaningful steps towards recovery and your looking at a high probability of failure regardless of how carefully your interpretation of Dr. Harley's plan is followed. The above statement is over the line.

Marriage Builders does include plans for dealing with the withdrawal and conflict states.

schtoop, it is not emotional blackmail, it is a statement of fact. In situations like this, there is a very narrow path to recovery. It does not just happen by accident. While there are no guarantees, there is a tried and true path that is most likely to avail a successful outcome. Continually veering off that path is unlikely to lead to success.

It's as if you were trying to get to Cincinnati and insist on taking Interstate 30, despite the fact that it does not go to Cincinnati. Am I blackmailing you if I tell you that you aren't going to get to Cincinnati that way? Or am just stating a true fact when I tell you that IH 30 doesn't go there but IH 75 DOES? Wouldn't it be mean of me to NOT tell you that you can't get to Cinncinnati that way?

People really do want to help you, schtoop, and it is frustrating to those of us who have saved our marriages using these concepts. It didn't happen by accident either.

Dr Harley points this out over and over again in his writings that this is not a crap shoot:

Requirements for Recovery

Maybe he secretly wants to go to Little Rock.

Why would anyone want to go to Cincinnati in the first place?

LOL, my 5 year old is stuck on wanting to go to Cincinnati.

He's been wanting to see snow (we live in Florida) and I think he saw an NFL game where it was snowing in Cincinnati, so that's where he wants to go. We've explained that somewhere like Colorado would be better and there's really nothing to like in Cincinnati, but he's convinced otherwise.

I wanna go to Minneapolis!

Take I70.

Take I35.

I plan to take a jet plane, actually.

With my wife by my side, and hotel reservations at the Embassy Suites!

Schtoop- I think our questions regarding trying Plan B in the same house were answered. IT CAN'T BE DONE. I wish I can remember where the post was (I think on Linus' thread), but I think Mel quoted Dr. H's statement about it, and if there is NO OTHER WAY to get WW to leave, the BH should. Last resort of course, but if it comes to Plan B, I think we need to be willing to leave.

Fortunately, I don't think you are there yet. I do agree that maybe this MC isn't the best choice. Can you search for a different one that does use the MB concepts? Do you think you may be able to get her on the phone with Steve? I also don't believe there is much value in dredging up the past.

Thanks, SoL.

No, all things being equal I can do the 180 plan (with as much plan A mixed in as I can) for quite a while longer. I'm starting to make plans for plan B, but they won't be implemented unless I find broken NC. I will not leave the house under any circumstances short of a court order, so plan B might not be an option if she refuses to leave.

I won't talk about our MC anymore on this forum, what I relay gets misinterpreted and attacked. His goal is to teach us to get in touch with our feelings and share them with each other, something we both totally suck at and has lead to our situation. He didn't engage my wife with the purpose of rehashing the past, it just kind of went there while he was trying to get anything out of her. She claims to be completely numb.

While not as affective as full-on MB's, I do think this guy is good at what he does and our sessions have value. Half the posters on here have their own MC's.

I will try to find that post about leaving the house if need be. It changed my thinking on the Plan B under the same roof idea. If I find it, I will post the link here for you.

I tried the 180 for a while and after talking with SH, I'm back on board with a full Plan A. I'm not saying you shouldn't try the 180 as I think it is a slight middle ground from A to B, however others may.

If you feel the MC is helping, then I would continue, but take Mel's comments to heart. I don't think I've seen her wrong on here yet. I would attempt a call with SH anyway. He is very good at this and I'm sure it would be a positive experience (and no, I don't get a commision).

My WW and I share the same IC, however not as MC. If we ever get to the point of trying MC, I would not use her. She helps me personally, and may be helping my WW, but I will try hard to find a pro-MB counselor if I can.

Schtoop- Here is a link to the thread about Plan A vs. 180 vs. Plan B. I also bumped it for you. Definately worth reading.

Plan B same House

I'm one of those posters, schtoop. I'm also of the opinion that SOME MCs can be effective depending on the individual situation. The MC also needs to be very pro-marriage, and understand the reason you are there is to save your marriage, not just dig up a lot of useless junk from the past. In our case, the sessions were very helpful.

Our MC, like yours, has been focusing on helping our communication which was a main part of the problem. If anything from the past comes up, he deals with it quickly, then moves on to how we can use lessons learned to help plan for a better future. There have been many instance where something from Mrs. Linus past helped her to understand some of the anger and resentment she had for me. It helped the MC point out that I was not the problem- she was channeling her anger to the wrong guy. We've also had many O&H conversations with MC, and he has helped us a lot in opening up.

He also really cares for us, and wants us to succeed. At this point, though, Mrs. Linus needs more IC than we need MC, so that's where we are.

The thing about MB is, it will definitely work once both spouses are committed to making the marriage work. I have no doubt about that. The principles are also very effective in ending an affair. Dr. H's book Surviving An Affair is awesome. But everyone is different and I do believe that there are times when a counselor who can look at the couple in the eye(s) and work with them to get over a hump. Sessions with an MC can be very beneficial if used with MB. MB by itself doesn't always work (look at the Divorce forum), but I doubt that at least in my case just MC would have worked. I needed all I learned here, along with the support I found, to cope. That being said, the sessions with the MC helped me a lot, if not necessarily save the marriage. That remains to be seen. I wish I had found MB a long time ago, but the past is the past and now we're doing our best to have a great future and if going to a MC helps, then that's what we do.

Don't let all the negative talk about MCs get you down. If it helps you at all, it's worth it.

Oh, BTW - Mrs. Linus has a session by herself with the MC tonight. She brought the book HNHN with her. She says it's been very helpful.

schtoop, have you read this article?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html

Never did I have more control or power in my M than I did in Plan A......Plan A is NOT about giving AWAY the power, it's about GAINING......and if you haven't experienced THAT, then you have not done it properly.....

Plan 180 is telling your spouse one thing...."I don't give a crap what you do"