Opt,

Thanks, I have read parts of your thread before, but will go back and read it more thoroughly now. Finding similar situations to my own is really where this board is the most helpful.

There will be no plan B. My wife will not move out and I will not move out and leave my boys under any circumstances short of a court order. The only way I can "go dark" is to move out, and I will NOT separate myself from my boys. Period.

That does indeed leave us right on the brink. Of course I know that brinksmanship is not MB's, but it is where I am right now. Truth be told, I'm fully prepared for plan D and would almost welcome it at this point. No, the plan B letter was not used in the proper way. But, it is my final attempt to establish some boundaries for myself, which admittedly is hard for me to do. I have been a people-pleaser all my life and seem to gravitate to the position of doormat.

We talked a little last night and I think she actually blinked. She wants to stay together right now for the kids (I think the reality that she will lose them for at least 50% of the time is sinking in). She gave me a [censored]-and-bull story about meeting the OM just so he could return a movie he borrowed for his kids (he is divorced), and that it was no big deal. So, I explained to her how big of a deal it really is (not like she doesn't know) and if she would really force a divorce for the return of a movie? I know I'm being gaslighted and she knows that I know.

I also think I've gotten through to her about how much she is neglecting the boys. The last three mornings she has actually woken up in time to interact with the boys for a few minutes as they get ready for school. Her sleeping so much has always been a huge issue. She normally sleeps until the last possible moment in the mornings before rushing out with barely a goodbye for the kids as she runs out the door.

Then we tiptoed into the issue of lifestyle. Again, she says she won't give up her friends and for the umpteenth time I said that I'm not asking her to. She was prepared for this and informed me that her friend (the single party friend) was going to come over to our house on Friday evening and the were going make appetizers and I'm sure cocktails. I told her that was good and I would love for our house to be an inviting place where all friends were welcome.

I also let her know in a non-judgmental way that I wasn't ready to interact with this friend, that it was my issue and not hers, and If it was OK to make myself or the kids scarce. She said that I could, but didn't have to. I also let her know that if we manage to stay together, I would do my best to get past this with her friend, but right now was just too soon.

I know my wife is trying to set me up, and wanted me to object to the friend coming over to prove I'm demanding too much of her. I was careful not to fall in that trap. We ended with me putting the ball in her court, asking her to define the lifestyle changes that we both could live with.

Meanwhile, what should I do on Friday evening?

1) Take the kids to dinner and a movie and leave the two friends to enjoy themselves? I'm not sure this is the right move, she may later point to me being the one who caused her not to be interacting with the boys, not her.

2) Leave her to watch the kids while her friend is over? She said that would be fine, also.

3) Suck it up and be present also? I'm sure I could be at least cordial with the friend, but I don't want to overdo it and come across as fake. They would drink and talk on the porch in the kitchen while me and the boys carry on as normal.

Like I say, there was a flurry of texts back and forth with this friend yesterday, so I'm sure this is some kind of test or trap. How I respond is critical. I'm leaning towards #3.

Schtoop,

How many times do I have to tell you? LEGAL SEPARATION. That is your path to plan B.

Is this the same "friend" who condones and facilitates her adultery?

This friend told me that she disapproved of the affair. But, she did know about it and she does facilitate the party girl lifestyle.

jmwc95, I am going to discuss legal separation with a lawyer as soon as I can meet with him. I'm not sure how it works in my state, and doesn't it still need to be agreed to by both parties? Like I said, I am not separating from my boys. Tell me more about how you think it would work.

Schtoop, I agree with Jim, I would get a legal separation and see if you can get your wife moved out. Even so, separated couples do share custody. You will probably get 50/50. I would also suggest filing on grounds of adultery if you can in your state. That gives you a legal advantage in some states and increases the chances that you get the house and primary custody of the kids.

As far as having the "friend" in your house, I would be against that, because she is an enemy to you and to your children. Having her over just adds insult to injury and does nothing to resolve your marriage problems. I wouldnt let her around my kids if I were you. That is disrespectful to your kids. Exposing you and your kids to scummy people in order to avoid being called "controlling" is not a solution and will not endear you to her. It will just embolden her to manipulate you further. She would have alot more respect for you if you protected your family from her creepy friends.

Plan Appeasement will gain you absolutely nothing except an enabled, emboldened WAYWARD who is hell bent on destroying your marriage. Your job should be to protect yourself and your children from that, not to go along with it just because you are scared of being called "controlling."

Two things,

Legal separation is not recognized in my state, so that's why I need more information about it. My state is also a no-fault state, so there is no filing on grounds of adultery.

Second, the friend is not that scummy and its her (the friend's) right to enjoy the single lifestyle if that's what she wants. This friend actually ran the daycare that both of our kids went to when they were young, so it's out of line to say that I suddenly need to protect my family from her. She had been trusted with our kids for years. My boundary is not for my wife to dissociate from the friend, just don't join her in the single lifestyle. If I don't allow the friend in our house, that will just feed into her justification for meeting this friend at bars.

Third, if it comes down to a choice between the friend and our marriage, the marriage loses with 100% certainty. I want to make sure you're not telling me to fight that battle.

Whoops, that's actually three things.

Then the alternative is to file for divorce, get separated and then drag out the proceedings. OR to live with your abusive wife in a non marriage marriage for the rest of your life.


Did this "friend" call you and inform you of your wife's affair? Does this friend "be-friend" a married woman who is having an adulterous affair? Ask yourself what kind of person does that? What kind of person hangs out with a woman who commits adultery and won't lift a finger to tell her spouse? I will tell you who. A SCUMBAG. An enemy of your marriage and your childrens family.



You are out of line to allow your kids to associate with her. She is an enemy to them. It really is sickening that woman cares so little for the families of the children she watches.


You have no boundaries, schtoop, so lets not pretend like you do. A boundary is something that is backed up by a consequence. There are NONE. Your wife knows she can come and go and do anything and you will do nothing. Except send her cute letters. Boundaries are backed up my action, yours are backed up by nothing. If you tell a wayward you "won't live like this" and then you DO live like this, then your talk of "boundaries" is a fart in the wind.


Yes, I am telling you to fight this battle. The POINT IS that she has chosen her friends and her single lifestyle over your marriage. NOW, what are you going to do about it? Your answer, to my amazement, is to faciliate and ENABLE that state of things rather than work against it.

Will inviting her "friends" over for drinks make her choose her marriage over her friends? Will appeasing her destructive lifestyle make her choose her marriage over her friends? Will ENABLING her and playing host to her scumbag friends make her choose her marriage over her friends?

No, it will not. The problem, schtoop, is that your goal is to appease your wayward wife AT ALL COSTS rather than save your marriage. Your actions are harmful to your marriage, not helpful. If you enable and appease someone whose goal is the destruction of your marriage, then you will end up with a..........destroyed marriage.

You are, by your inaction, committing to care for her by tolerating her marriage-wrecking choices. This gives your wife unrealistic expectations of entitlement that she can stay married regardless of her willingness to care in return. Neglect and abuse characterize such marriages, as you can see.

Schtoop, I realize I am probably wasting my time telling you this, but I hope that others here can see what Plan Appeasement gets you: NOTHING, but a crumbling marriage.

Then file for D while letting her know the door is still open. Continue to document, and if you get primary custody of the children, she might not want to go through with it. Keep documenting and discuss things with your lawyer.

So, do you agree with Jim, Melody?

This does seem like the only path out of plan Appeasement.

I agree you should do this. And let her know that the door is ONLY OPEN if she ends her affair and commits to repairing the marriage. [and her current lifestyle is very destructive to your marriage, schtoop - it is her lifestyle that led to the affair] The problem I see here is that you have given her the impression that her catting around like a single woman is acceptable behavior. The fact that she does place her "friends" and her single life above her marriage and her children is something to turned around, not accommodated.

Here is how I would approach this if I were in your shoes, schtoop. I would go to her and tell her you have given this alot of thought and realize you have made a mistake by agreeing to some of the things you have agreed to, such as her single lifestyle. You find her single lifestyle hurtful and destructive to your marriage. You have no interest in being around a "friend" who helped her keep such a destructive secret from you. A real friend to you and your kids would have come and told you.

[I am sorry, Schtoop, but I don't have a SINGLE "friend" who would allow me to have an affair. Anyone who would is not my "friend."]

Tell her you will give her an opportunity to regain your trust, though. If not, then you wouldn't be interested in going forward because you know it is not going to work any other way. Her lifestyle has led to her affair and it is too painful for you to endure. Here is what it will take to gain your trust and recover the marriage:

1. an end to the single lifestyle. Leisure time should be spent together, not apart. going out alone is what has led to her affairs and a continuation of that practice will not gain your trust, it will erode it further

2. socialize only with couples with whom you are both friends. Any friends who knew about the affair and didn't tell you are not friends of the marriage. Association with such people make you rightly insecure and does nothing to rebuild your trust.

3. Make your life an open book to me

4. commit to creating a romantic marriage where we are in love, using the MB program

Then put the ball in her court. Tell her you don't want her to grudgingly agree. "If you don't want to do those things, I will fully understand if you reject this plan. But this is what it will take to keep me in the marriage. If you don't commit to this, then I need to move towards a divorce."

If she says, "you are trying to control me!!!!" [the favorite refrain of every abusive wayward wife] then respond with: "oh no! I would not do that. I insist your partipation be entirely VOLUNTARY. It is all up to you."


Essentially, I am saying to lay out a CLEAR path of recovery to her and give an opportunity to come on board. Then, if she won't get on board, you are better off filing.

schtoop, the thing here is that if you lower the bar, as you have, she will just live DOWN to your expectations. If you raise the bar, then she either lives up to your expectations or she leaves. At this point, you have nothing to lose. But continuing as you have is leaving her with false expectations of entitlement.

A lot of WSs like having their cake and eating it too. They manipulate you to prevent from having to make a decision. Your WW does NOT want to get divorced. She just wants to continue her current lifestyle. Who will pay the bills? Who will watch the kids while she parties till 2am? She won't have a husband to do that for her anymore. A lot of times, the WS starts to work on the marriage once the BS steps up and files. He who cares the least holds the power in the relationship. Up until this point it has been her. I doubt she will like losing control of that. Do you know when my WW agreed to NC? When I told her I was done, and I set up an appointment with my lawyer to file for D. Then she started crying and agreed to NC. She didn't agree to work on the marriage, but she agreed to NC. I probably should have even held out for more.

Thanks, you've given me a lot to think about.

Hi Schtoop,
How are things going?

Thanks for salvaging this thread from page 8 hell.

Things are still in limbo here, I see them as teetering on the brink, while my wife seems to be ignoring or blocking the whole situation out.

It's been a busy few days. Friday night my wife had her friend and married friend next door over for a light dinner and wine. My oldest son had a friend spending the night, so I took the kids out for burrito's and Iron Man 2. The girls were still talking when I got home, so I got the kids to sleep and watched some TV before the party broke up. The question remains, is this a genuine effort to adjust her lifestyle, or is just a temporary diversion?

Saturday was very busy. I take my youngest to his soccer game, then shortly after noon my wife has to leave for church to get ready for the big show. Every quarter they put on a big show with music, drama, and such for kids that is a huge production. She is the host for this show and spends a lot of time on stage. They did a great job and I was sure to let her know just how well she did.

Sunday I took the boys out on my boat for fishing and beach fun. My wife had her stepfather come over and they pressure washed the house and the porch. I asked my wife a couple of times if she would like to come with us on the boat, but she said she had this planned with her stepfather for a week now, which was news to me. We grilled a nice dinner, then crashed.

So, with all of this going on there has been no relationship talk at all since Wednesday or Thursday night. On my way out the door this morning I reminder her that we do need to talk and that I would like to this evening. She agreed.

Through all of this my boys have been my refuge. I cherish every moment that I spend with them and I know that they love me unconditionally. My relationship with the oldest (9) has actually strengthened in the last few months, as I have learned something about relating to people emotionally from our MC and it has really helped with him and me.

Unfortunately, it is not an adjustment in favor of your marriage. The problem is that you lead completely separate, incompatible lifestyles and that has not changed.

Unfortunately, Mel is right on. You spent the weekend with the boys, she spent it doing whatever. Not good.

And this, my friend, is the most important aspect of the whole disaster with your WW. YOU are growing as a person, and your boys are benefiting. Always keep that in mind, especially on the really dark days. It will keep you going.

Schtoop

Your wife having drinks at home is a start. It means she is not rocking in at 2 in the morning.

But what you described does seem very independent behavior.

Is it necessary for you to leave when your wife has a few friends over?

Would it have been possible for you to have joined your wife and friends for a drink when you came home?

I think it is good that your wife socializes at home, but you do not want to be the stranger in your home.

You are right on Jack.

I was just in no mood this weekend to put on a happy face around her friends, so I pursued my own IB behavior with the kids.

I have also not been in much of a plan A mode since the latest round of broken NC and the confrontation about it. In fact, I made more than my share of DJ's at that time, kind of like the lid coming off a volcano.

One thing that's come out of this, it's pretty clear that she is scared of the prospect of divorce. The fact that I'm not going to make it easy or friendly (she's told me this), and the fact that she likely won't get a very favorable settlement (I think she suspects this) is holding her back.

We went round and round about what constitutes lifestyle changes and have come to a shaky understanding. I suspect she wants to continue in this limbo of a marriage with me to be her live-in nanny while she gets to do whatever she wants, so she'll tone things down for a while to keep me around.

So, if SickofLimbo can do it, then I can too. It's going to be one final push of plan A until my lovebank is so overdrawn I can't take it anymore. I will try to tone down my own independent behavior and avoid lovebusters at all costs. I can do pretty well at avoid LB's from day to day, but it's when we get in a big confrontation (which has been about once a month) that they come out. I will avoid all confrontations and meet the EN's she lets me to the best of my ability.

In the meantime, I will continue snooping and if there's contact I will get proof like my lawyer advised. There will be no more confrontations, I will play dumb and happy until the day the papers are served (and even later).

I think as long as you have the will and the strength to continue the Plan A in your circumstance, what do you have to lose? It is hard though. You do need to watch yourself and do NOT LB no matter what. One LB wipes out a bunch of deposits. When you get to the point of almost losing all love for her or the D is final, then it's time to quit.

You have to be very self-aware and monitor your own feelings throughout. Especially with the no expectations.

Edit: I have to add that it is more difficult to do when I am at home. It's a lot easier while I'm living away.