Use her 'fog' against her. Tell her she should move out so she can 'find' herself.

Then nail her with abandonment and a flurry of lawyers!

Time to re-expose to everyone that you already exposed to. You also need to widen the exposure audience. This time tell the kids like Mel tried to get you to do last time. You need to up the ante. You need to get the guts to do the right thing for your children. You need to fight or choose to just hang your head and walk away defeated....

Mindshare

1) Mass re-exposure on your WW's side (tell the kids).

2) Mass exposure on OM's side (tell his ex, his parents, siblings - do some digging and make his life he11).

3) Another ~4 weeks of plan A.

4) File for legal separation and go to plan B. Even if she is still in the same house for a while, you can still just not talk to her or meet any of her needs.

You're right, I'm feeling more and more defeated. The more this goes on, the more I question my own desire to renew a life with this woman. For the first time thoughts are starting to creep into my mind that perhaps a split would be the best thing for ME.

I'm going to see how things shake out this week. If things don't change, the massive re-exposure may be the best advice. What have I got to lose at this point?

This is the single greatest question most BS's NEVER ask themselves.

Good for you!!!

Wow, the fog is thick with this one.

Just to bring us up to date, here's a timeline since D-day.

1/23 - D-day, found text messages on her phone after she'd been out until 4:30 A.M. Insisted on no contact at intial confrontation.

1/29 - discovered more contact from cell phone log. Sat down with a cup of coffee and reiterated NC agreement

2/02 - discovered pre-pay cell phone. Exposed to who I thought would have the most influence, but wasn't "nuclear". A talk with the OM appeared to motivate him to end it.

2/13 - Leave on family trip to Puerto Rico, haven't seen any contact for nearly two weeks. Pre-pay cell phone has remained inactive in her car.

2/16 - discover while at PR that she sent electronic V-day card to OM. Other contacts follow.

2/19 - have long talk about trying to recover and confront about the new contacts. She minimizes them and claims she wants closure.

2/21 - find more contacts on cell phone log. Have a more stern confrontation about it (see above).

2/23 - Newest developments:

My cell phone and her cell phone are on the same plan. I get a text message from our provider that the password has been changed. I don't know what password was changed, but I can still view our logs from the internet (not sure she knows this). She is also prudent about deleting text messages as soon as they are sent or recieved, but I'm not sure she realizes the fact that they were made still shows up on the log (or doesn't care).

The pre-pay phone has gone missing.

I'm done confronting her about the contacts. I get nothing but lies and fogbabble anyway. She says the more I push and try to control her, the more she wants to do the opposite.

She had an individual appointment with the counselor yesterday, and I have one tomorrow morning. I'm going to see how these shake out, then come up with a plan of action. I really have nothing more to lose at this point.

Please, I'm here again asking for help and I hope that I am not ignored.

I have a couple of questions that I could really use help with.

1) Can "plan A" still be carried out while contact is ongoing?

I know that she is contacting him and I am tired of the confrontations about it that don't do any good, anyway. I don't need a lesson on how the recovery can't move forward if there is still contact, and I don't need a list of ways I should be fighting the affair. I know where everyone stands on these issues. It is what it is right now.

When talking about plan A in SAA, Dr. Harley often speaks as if there still might be contact occuring while we try our best to meet EN's and avoid LB's.

I asked our MC (yes, I know how you feel about most MC's methods) point blank what I should do about the continued contact. He asked me if it was a deal-breaker, would it force me to divorce if she doesn't stop. He asked me that because he feels that's where my wife is right now, that she would choose divorce if I forced the issue. He suggested a "don't ask, don't tell" approach for right now. I suspect he is right (about her choosing D), as she has never really promised no contact other than right after D-day when her back was against the wall. His advice might be good, or might not be, but I will try it his way at least until our next appointment on Monday.

2) How can a "plan B" work if my wife refuses to move out?

I know with certainty that this would be the case. I think she is trying to win a war of attrition right now with me, hoping that I will cave and move out or call the marriage over first.

Don't get me wrong, I'm nowhere near ready to give up on plan A. I just want to start formulating a plan B in the event it's needed while I'm still thinking somewhat rationally.

3) Do things change if I find her physically meeting him?

Right now, as far as I can tell, it has been mostly text messages with maybe some phone calls thrown in since D-day. But, I'm getting the feeling more and more that she will try to get together with him. How would that change my strategy?

I am in the same spot where my WW is having her cake and eating it too. I looked through the articles and found this:

But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

I have no idea how to get my WW out of the house. Lukily she is getting a job so she can be self supportive. I have no idea how to get a WS out of the house especially when they dont want to leave.

An affair is an affair. My WW is has made a couple attempts to meeting her OM. So far nothing has come to fruition because of expense. I have refused to pay for her to see the OM, and have taken away our joint credit cards and finances from her. She will use those for her own pleasure.

Hi schtoop,

1) Yes, you keep your plan A as long as possible. Most people in plan A do it while WS is in contact or withdrawal.

You meet her ENs and avoid LBs. You concentrate on the changes that YOU need to make. Avoid confrontations or relationship talk. At this point WW is an addict so those conversations are completely pointless.

At the same time, make it difficult for her to continue the A. Put pressure on OM, nuclear exposure, removing means for her to continue the A (do you pay her phone bill?). This is a war against the A (not your WW). Be intelligent about how you fight it.

2) Plan B for men is more difficult because of the who gets to move out. Just get in the mentality that you don't leave your home no matter the situation. You may want to consult a D lawyer to understand your options. Do not make any threats of D or let her know that you're preparing for plan B. This is only for preparation in case you NEED to go into plan B.

3) You might want to assume that the A is already a PA. I don't think it should change your strategy. Maybe you increase your pressure by executing a stronger "stick" part of plan A. But your WW seems to be deep enough in the fog that you'd be already putting as much pressure as possible. The more physical the A gets the more hooked she'll become. So you'd act now. Don't wait until it's too late.

Best wishes

--ElCamino72

Okay, here is the way it is. Plan A, and Plan B for that fact, are used when there is an active A. That is what they are intended for because they are used to try to help end the A. Although DrH suggests that in 85% of the cases, Plan A alone will not work. That is where Plan B comes in to effect.

Plan A is a way of showing your WS that the M and home are a better choice than the A. Most A's die a natural death. There is a chance that if you did NOTHING that your WS would still return but your chance of R is slim to none.

Plan A without the stick part would not be a Plan A, it would in fact be a Plan DOORMAT as we so affectionately call it around these parts. Plan A is about showing your WS that you are willing and capable of meeting their most important EN's and you will avoid LBing them in the process. You can't do this half assed. You have to follow all of the parts of the plans or else you are in a Plan C(CONFUSION), or in a NO PLAN plan.

My WH works with POSOW so there was physical contact. I went to Plan B and he lives with POSOW. It didn't change the plans. I still follow the MB concepts because I know that they will be my best chance at R. If the M does not R, then I will have my personal R(which will happen either way).

As far as this part, you could just try to do what I did. While my WH was at work, I packed all of his PERSONAL belongings and put them on the porch. I had planned that my Dad would come over so WH wouldn't make a scene but WH came home early. When my WH came home, I simply said that I couldn't live like this anymore and to save my remaining love for him he had to leave. It took about 30 minutes. I asked for his keys and he finally gave them to me. I locked the door and left(it was my Bday and I went to my bday party).

I am sure that my WH tells ppl that I kicked him out, but I don't talk to him or anyone about him so I don't care.

I have also seen it said around here that it is possible to do a Plan B while living in the same house. I don't know any examples of that but you could do some research.

My man schtoop,

You're asking for help but at the same time you're telling others how to give you help. As BH, we deal with a lot of confusion - some of it is BS fog that we create on our own.

Don't be afraid to question your own instincts and initial reactions to fight the A. Why settle for "what it is right now"?

Wish you the best

--ElCamino72

As a BH I have a tough time kicking my wife out. Aren't I entitled to the kids, the house, and the car since my wife is the cheat? I have everything taken care of on my end if I have to kick the WW out, except seperating the finances. The kids have someone to watch them while I am at work. However, I do worry about how she will take care of herself, how will she survive, and will she just go completly nuts and execute every wrong decision out there?

Well Sugar replied on one of my posts: "Whay should you care what happens to her."

Obviously your WW does not have much respect for you just like mine had no respect for me, so do whatever is needed to fix your marriage, and let her take care of herself.

Thanks, all!

For a little clarification, the affair was definitely physical already. It was going on for 5 months before D-day. I just think that there may not have been any physical contact since D-day (about a month), and that's something she holds onto.

Secondly, I think there's a good chance this affair dies it's own natural death. I know very little about this OM, other than he's 5 years younger than my wife, divorced, not very well off financially, and a bit of a bar fly (that's where she met him).

In our talks I've asked her what she wants, is it to split up so she can be with him? To this she quickly shakes her head no.

From talking to the OM and to my wife's friend who was present, they had a bit of spat at the bar the night before D-day. My best guess and from my conversation with the OM, he's enjoying the single life and my wife may be cramping his style a little and becoming a bit of a pest. He answers her text messages but rarely initiates them and they don't seem to talk very long. My wife is in this fantasy world and thinks he is some great friend.

I will continue to plan A my butt off and avoid talk about the OM or relationship.

And don't worry, I know better than to ever leave the house. I also know better than to threaten or warn of plan B or divorce. Those will happen suddenly, on my own terms, when she sapped me of any love I have remaining for her.

IF YOU WANT THE CONTACT TO STOP, LET ME REPEAT:


It's not rocket science. If you want her to stop contact, do those steps. If you want to be passive and avoid conflict, keep doing what you are doing.

Also, for certain carriers you can block phone calls and texts. You can block email and websites. Research this, invest in the technology, and prevent your addict WW from getting her fix.

You don't want your WW to continue to contact OM? Try harder, and take matters into your own hands.

Thanks, jmwc95, for reminding me what NEEDS to be done.

I have actually started formulating a plan to do this. I have hacked my wife's facebook page. Every meaningful person in her life is on there, including neighbors and bunco friends. I can post one message to her wall (identify it as coming from me), then change the password and it will be up there for all to see.

I know where she keeps her pre-pay cell phone now (found it yesterday). I want to monitor it for a little while to get a clearer picture of their current relationship. When I go nuclear, it will meet a ball peen hammer and be replaced in its hiding place.

I would really like to catch her in a physical encounter. That would end any of her foggy arguements like "just a friend, now", "I was getting closure on my terms", or my favorite, "the more you try to control me, the more I want to rebel."

I have opened a new bank account where I deposited some consulting income my wife doesn't know about. It's not much, but a little bit of a financial safety net if I need to adjust our finances quickly. Right now she does all the finances.

I am going to wait a couple of weeks, though. I told our MC I would try it his way for a little while. I'm curious to see if he will bring up the continued contact in our next session together, as it came as a surprise when I informed him of it during an individual session a couple days ago.

I also know my wife, where she is right now, and how stubborn and vindictive she can be. This is fact, such measures will have a better than 50% chance of leading straight to divorce. I have to be prepared for that outcome if I am going to make the move.

Well, we had an eventful evening.

I last posted on Friday afternoon, where I was at work and had a strong feeling she was going to see the OM that day while I was at work.

I had found her other phone and there was a text about "call me tomorrow (fri)". In addition, she got up early (she doesn't work on fridays, volunteers at the kid's school in the morning), which is unusual and spent some effort putting on nice clothes, makeup, and doing her hair.

Well, I was right. When I got home I checked her prepay cell and found a note from her thanking him for seeing her and how she now needed a nap.

You can see where I thought all this had gone, and I definitely confronted her about it as soon as I found out.

Turns out there was no physical encounter and the meeting was a final goodbye. He had been avoiding her since I called him and doing his best to cut ties. She had been hounding him to see her one more time so that they could part as friends. I know, I know, this is all such a stretch to believe and I would not trust her to break it off on her own. But, I think he is pretty set in his opinion and wants the final break.

I told her I would believe her this on last time. And that's where I'm at. All the snooping, discovery, and confrontation has left me drained. I will give her this final chance, and if she lets me down go straight to plan B or D.

She gave me th prepay phone without much coaxing and she watched as I hammered it to oblivion.

I can now full speed ahead plan A.

What's her position on a NC letter? I she's still reluctant to send one then I'd be very skeptic that contact will be over.

--ElCamino72

Am I alone here in reading a lot more into that line? Just wondering.






Really? Because she said so?

Yeah, I will never be sure but I think Wayzilla and Gollum attempted 2-sessions of "goodbye sex." They didn't take.




schtoop, I hope this is true.

Uggghhhh,,Nope........

I read that with the same thought.....