Well said NOT.

Thanks Linus, SoL, and not2fun.

Just read your thread on plan B while in the same house and how it can't be done!

Lots of helpful advice there. Instead of being resigned to the assumption that my WW would refuse to leave, I will definitely talk to a lawyer first and have my ducks in a row (would have done that anyway). With knowledge of my legal rights and the right persuasion (I like the idea of packing all her [censored] up and leaving it in the garage), she may just do it.

We had mixed weekend, some good and some same old/same old. Not near ready for plan B, that's just a fallback if I were to discover contact.

As promised, some thoughts on the whole 180 plan debate. First, I was entirely wrong, as I think SoL and others may have been, to look at 180 as a substitute for plan B. Totally wrong thinking.

The more closely I read and digest the 180 plan, the more similarities I see with MB's plan A.

Many of the tenants of 180 are just restatements of "avoid lovebusters".

Others are consistent with the "no expectations" concept.

Very important stress on not necessarily avoiding relationship talk, but not initiating it. Again, entirely consistent with plan A.

180 also stresses showing your WS the strong, confident, fun old self that they fell in love with. Kind of like plan A in that regard.

To be fair, some of the 180 plan is definitely NOT consistent with MB's. I like the idea of not trying too hard to meet some EN's when the WS is clearly not receptive (always being up her [censored] as my wife once said). But, to make yourself "unavailable" is certainly taking things too far and clearly violates the policy of undivided attention.

Also, the 180 plan does not stress meeting EN's, which of course is critical to plan A and the biggest disconnect between the two approaches. I don't think any of us who read and liked the 180 plan went so far as to throw this concept out the window. We just can't come across as being too "needy" when trying to meet our spouses EN's and should never appear as needy as far as getting our own EN's met.

In trying to execute a plan A, I was really struggling with the "no expectations" aspect. Reading the 180 plan helped tremendously in that regard and some of their suggestions are quite useful to that end.


This is not a correct characterization. 180 is about showing your spouse that, "I will be OK, regardless of how you act." Big difference.

In looking back on what I've been doing for the past month(s) and where to go from here, it's definitely plan A, although not necessarily a mistake-free plan A up to this point. I will try to clean that up from here on out.

schtoop - I agree 100% with you here, and the 'I will be OK' message is very important. In my case, it got WW's attention big time. It was almost like she was thinking 'uh oh, I pushed him too far'.

It's a fine line between trying to meet her ENs when she's not receptive and being a doormat. You know your wife better than anyone. Her reaction to your behavior can tell you a lot.

Best of luck - stay the course!

This is not a correct characterization. 180 is about showing your spouse that, "I will be OK, regardless of how you act." Big difference.[/quote]

Actually, I was able to show my H that *I* would be OK and just fine whether or not he came back to the marriage or not in Plan A. There is no difference in that regard in Plan A. It all boils down to HOW you present it. Heck, much to the chagrin of my mentor, I even told H at one point that I "may" not be around once he was done with his dalliance.

I'm not sure where you get the impression that Plan A doesn't show your spouse you WON 'T be okay???

Again, when done properly, with consistence, confidence, and finesse, Plan A shows the WS what can of marriage partner you CAN be, it's just up to them if they want that or let someone else get those benefits........

There are some useful things in 180, HOWEVER, if used solely, then you WILL leave the WS thinking you don't give a darn and then they see no way to come back to the marriage. Plan A does give the WS that path back......which is ESSENTIAL

Not2fun

Not2fun,

I think we're all thinking pretty much alike.

Like I said, when I began my plan A I really, really, really struggled with the "no expectations" concept. My fairness meter was pegged on zero.

Why the hell should I have to do all the heavy lifting, bend over backwards to please her, try to live my life as the perfect husband and father, do all of the housework and take care of the boys (because that's who I want to be is the answer). All the while she goes out till all hours of the night with her friends, sleeps the day away ignoring the kids, spends whatever the hell money she wants on herself and doesn't change a damn thing about her screwed up self?

But, the problem was not with the plan A concept, it was with my attitude and how I was implementing it. Reading the 180 plan and implementing SOME (the ones consistent with MB's) of their measures has helped me immensely with the "no expectations" aspect.

It also showed me that plan A doesn't mean sacrificing all my time and energy on reaching her. I can still live life, go fishing once in a while, hang out with friends if I want to, and of course do fun things with the boys. That went a long way towards keeping my sanity

Uh - oh!

The red flags are starting to pile up. Nothing that I have concrete proof of right now, but I'm seeing more and more signs.

I would not put it past her to have an affair phone, I've taken a hammer to one already. If she has one, she knows better than to leave it in her car or bedroom. I have shaken both down thoroughly and continue to check her car when I can get away with it. If she has one she may keep it at work.

But, I just found several text messages on the internet phone log (her regular cell phone) to a man I don't know. She also texted this man at 1:00 A.M. last Friday night when she was supposed to be with girlfriends doing a bachelorette party. I see no other evidence of calls or texts, but the ones from yesterday had been deleted (I'll scroll through her cell phone when I find it unattended). I found them on the the internet phone logs, so I have no clue what they said. Is this a potential OM #2, or is it tied up with OM #1?

I posted earlier how she lied about going out to the bar after "Bunco" last week.

I have a pair of underwear with an abnormal stain on them. I have a semen test kit that should arrive today or tomorrow and we'll see what that shows.

There's some other suspicious behavior that I won't go into right now, but none of it is damning enough on it's own to confront her with. She would just deny it and I can write the script to explain each one away.

The biggest thing is that she's still in the wayward mindset. There's no real withdrawal, nor is there any movement towards working on our marriage. She ACTS like she's cake eating.

I am getting some lawyer recommendations and want to have an initial consultation. I will be ready to move quickly should I find proof, it will be straight to plan B without passing go.

You mean plan D/LS? You can't go to plan B without her agreeing to move out, and I doubt that will happen. If you want to go to plan B, I would try the legal separation route first.

Yes, that's what I mean. I will consult with a lawyer and see what is needed to craft a legal separation, and how much agreement you need between the two partners to make it valid.

Depending on what he says, I may try the "pack up a suitcase and leave a plan B letter with it" and see how she reacts. She could surprise me an go for it, especially if I hit her with no warning. She has parents that live 45 minutes away and her single party buddy who is looking for a housemate.

And there won't be a warning, there won't be any disclosures of my evidence or confrontations about it. I will simply state in the plan B letter that I KNOW an affair is continuing and will not live with it any longer.

Good for you for not taking it like many BHs.

If you can't stand it anymore that is YOUR choice.

Good for you, schtoop. She needs to know you're serious about this.

Sctoop

I think you have done a sterling job of keeping it together over these past months. Extremely difficult for anyone.

One big victory you have had, is stopping the affair with exposure and drawing a line in the sand. Well done.

I am not a big fan of conventional counseling. From people I know that have gone through traumatic experiences, the counseling seemed to just hold them there.
Right or wrong, maybe in your case it is the only way the two of you can begin to talk to each other.

When it comes to conflict, do not forget you need the olive branch to find your way out. Otherwise it becomes and endless argument with neither side listening.

Listening is a strong way to build empathy and empathy is one of the biggest ways to build attraction. If you can acknowledge to someone that you are listening to them they a more likely to open up more.

It would be good to hear sometime soon that the two of you are sitting down drinking wine together on that porch.

Thanks, Jackblack.

Our MC is really stressing the listening part and that we should be practicing those skills constantly. I really need work in that area, it's hard to listen to her crap without becoming defensive. Oops, there I go again.

OK, that was interesting.

Just had a phone conversation with my potential lawyer. He asked me why we might be divorcing and of course I told him about the affair. Then he asked if she was still seeing him, to which I responded that she say's no, but I have my doubts.

His advice was to lay low, play dumb, and get PROOF. He said that ambushing her in a lie in front of the judge with concrete proof will do more to tip the court in my favor than anything else I can do.

I asked him about separating if I caught her, and again he said not to, to just play dumb and even make it easy for her to carry on, and get PROOF.

He finally asked me if I wanted her back. Of course I answered (in my best MB's swagger), that's what I'm still working my utmost on. Then he asked me if I believed she would ever change.

That one made me pause. The truth is that I'm feeling more and more certain that she will NOT change. Maybe it's not some alien who took over my wife, maybe it's her true colors revealed plainly to me for the first time?

We ended the conversation with the Lawyer referring to me as "not ripe yet" (common phrase in their circles). He said he'll still be there in a couple months when I've had time to ripen a little more. I agreed with him and thanked him for his time.

The question is, should I still stick by my plan of going to plan B if I find contact again? I know the lawyer has no interest in saving my marriage, so I can choose not to listen to his advice. I also know that I screwed up plan A several times and am just as likely to screw up plan B.

Maybe I should scrap it all and just make sure I don't screw up plan D.

Hi schtoop,
I have the same thoughts about change in my WW. Truth is, it does you no good to think about that right now. Only she can do that. So my advice is to stay away from that thought.

What is your ultimate goal? Recovery? If so, then I would say follow and stick to Plan A until you know it is time for the plan that wouyld lead you toward your ultimate goal (Plan B).

I have made many mistakes in my Plan A as you have seen and helped me with. Oh well, we can only pick ourselves up get back at it. Don't worry about screwing up Plan D, that's why you're paying the lawyer big bucks. Plus, your the one w/a plan. Your WW is acting on her selfish emotions so I would imagine that she will do her fair share of screwing up in Plan D.

Hang in there buddy and ask yourself what your ultimate goal is and head in that direction.

Schtoop,
I have to apologize that I don't know your whole story, I just can't catch up with all these threads in their entirety. But I see from the last couple of pages that you are in a very similar spot that I was in not too long ago. I am very compelled to jump in and say that Now_What is entirely right. And furthermore I can tell you exactly what will happen if you let your will/drive get weak and allow the demons of possible further contact persuade you. (I can refer you to the last few pages of my thread when I changed the title to " -Going to Plan D.)"

Here's the thing: even if there is confirmation of further contact, etc, if you skip Plan B, you'll always wonder what would have happened if you didn't. Heck, further contact, or another OM really just means she's still wayward, it isn't necessarily another slap in the face (to my point: sheesh, look at Limb and Scot, and a host of others). You won't know if she's "reveling her true colors" until you take the situation to the n'th degree...with Plan B.

Now, I went to Plan D. Just couldn't handle Plan B, or any more abuse. That's me. There are reasons for that that I won't bog down this post with. But I'll tell you I still wonder- it nags. ...I typically come to my senses pretty quickly (the woman just isn't ready for a real marriage), but it's still there from time to time.


I hope this helps Schtoop. I see you around a lot of threads and you're very insightful. I know you'll come out of all this a better Schtoop.

~opt

Thanks, Optimism and now_what.

The question about skipping plan B was more of a rhetorical question.

You're exactly right, a divorce settlement for my situation and in my state is pretty cut and dried. I'm not going to throw out a chance to save the marriage just to get the upper hand once divorce is necessary.

However, I cannot keep living like this much longer. Wife went out to celebrate Cinco de Mayo with friends last night and was gone until after midnight. The receipt in her purse shows she checked out of the restaurant at 9:51. Again, nothing I can confront her about, because she'll just say that they went to her friends house to talk a little more.

Here's a schedule of my last week: Keep in mind that everyday I'm the one who gets up with the kids, feed them and get them ready for school, make lunches, take them to school, fix them dinner, get them to and from soccer practice, do homework with them, then get them bathed and ready for bed. That's me, every day and night regardless of if she's here or not. Also, the kids get home from school after 5:00.

Wednesday: She has rehearsal for a kid's show they're putting on at church. Gone from 6:00 - 8:30 (kids bed time).

Thursday: She does manage to grace us with her presence that night.

Friday: Goes out with friends for a bachelorette party. Gone from 5:30 until 2:00 A.M.

Saturday: Sleeps in (isolation chamber) while I take the boys to a 5K run/1 mile fun run in the morning. Still sleeping as I come back and take the youngest to soccer game. Goes back to bed at 1:30 until we have to go to a company BBQ for her work at 4:00.

Sunday: I have work to do at our beach unit and leave early. She sleeps in until 10:45 (missing church) while the boys wake up and watch TV. I get home at 3:00, she sleeps again until 6:00 when she takes the oldest to cub scouts.

Monday: Church practice 6:00 - 8:30.

Tuesday: Another meeting with church group, gone from 6:00 until 10:00 (I have doubts about this one).

Wednesday: Cinco de Mayo with friends, gone til after midnight.

Tonight: More practice with church.

Friday night: Going out with friends again without a doubt.

She's also homeroom mom for the kids school and this is teacher appreciation week, so she's constantly going to the store for some cards, flowers, etc.

Yesterday we had a conversation about how she is overextending herself (didn't even mention the partying), but she doesn't see it. I left it alone so that I didn't lovebust. You and I know that she's doing all the super-mom stuff to compensate for her guilt from the affair, but I can never say that to her. The bottom line is that it's just another escape from having to face our marriage and kids would appreciate a little time with her much more than all the outside stuff she does.

At any rate, it's no way to repair a marriage. Even if there's a small chance that she's not still in contact with the OM, I just can't keep living with a wife that's engaged in everything else but me (and the kids are feeling it too). Throw in the constant nagging feeling that she's seeing the OM and it's hard not to be bitter all the time.

That's why I'm kind of hoping I can prove contact. There's a small chance that plan B would shake some sense into her, but if it doesn't I'm OK with plan D. I just can't take this kind of life anymore.

Schtoop, here is your plan for marital recovery.

1) Continue for a short while longer with an even BETTER plan A.

2) Talk with a lawyer and try to prepare yourself to get a better custody arrangement because of documentation of all her partying.

3) File for legal separation and go to plan B. Hopefully, the legal separation and plan B will paint a realistic and ugly picture of what divorce will actually be like, making the plan A version of you a better option.

Otherwise, you are just biding your time until you can't stand her anymore and file for D. What is your plan? You don't seem to have one.

Can you hire a PI?

I agree that some evidence of an affair would be good for court, but as far as plan B goes you have reason to do that now. You don't need to wait for that. The fact that she refuses to do anything to recover your marriage and meet your needs is reason enough for Plan B. The behavior that you described is not a marriage, much less a WS who is remotely interested in recovery.

You are 100% right here, ML. Her stance on recovery since the beginning is "I don't know what I want to do, I DON'T know if I want to try." So, she's just been sitting there in limbo doing nothing to recover our marriage while I do all the heavy lifting. Agree that in truth she is not remotely interested in recovery. I'm feeling more and more that I should plan B her whether or not I find concrete proof.

I've been waiting for days for a semen test kit to come in the mail. That could force the issue, depending on what I find with a pair of drawers I have stashed away.

jmw asks what is my plan?

Right now, I'm still trying to do a limited plan A. I say limited because she will not allow me to meet her most important EN's (affection, SF, RC). So I am interested when she feels like conversation and ask her about church and kids activities. I do try to be upbeat, but that's hard when I'm so bitter inside. Having the kids around helps there. My strong points are domestic support, which I've always done a great job with. Unfortunately, that's not one of her important EN's. Me being too militant about housework is one of the things that pulled us apart, so I'm trying to walk a fine line between providing the support and not making it a negative. I do it more for me than for her.

I now act indifferent towards her party habits. She tells me she's going out with her friends and I say "OK". I don't ask where, what time she'll be back, etc. I don't ask her about it the next day.

Here's an example: This morning she told me the restaurant they went to and how service was a nightmare. I replied, "OK, me and the boys had our own Cinco de Mayo celebration. We went to Moe's and the kids directed the making of their own burritos. We all had a great time."

The next step is plan B. I will write the letter and pack up suitcase for her and hit her as a total surprise. She may not leave, but then again she just may if I show enough resolve.

Schtoop, regardless of whether you continue Plan-A or go into Plan-B, get the PI and get the goods on her and stash them away for safe keeping. Your attorney advised that it would do you good in your state in the event of a divorce. It may even help in the event that a custody hearing becomes neccesary.

Work the MB plans to save your M and get the PI to save your butt.

God's Blessings,

Say