A LOT of long-time posters recommend the LB first, EN second system, but that has NOT been the advice coming through the coaching center to me. Just because you stop HURTING someone it does not mean they will fall in love with you.

CWMI, What has the advice been to you?

I ask because it totally makes sense to me to eliminate LB first, then work on EN, rather than the other way around, because a spouse in withdrawl is probably already VERY good at meeting their own needs through IB. If I have been LBing my spouse, no amount of meeting EN willm make up for the huge hole in teh bottom of the bucket. Chances are the withdrawn spouse wouldn't even allow me to meet their EN because of their resentment.

I definitely unerstand that eventually you have to do both, plus all the other stuff. But it seems that in a crisis situation or serious withdrawl, the most important thing is to end any bad behaviors.

To understand each other's ENs and create plans to meet them, and carry those plans out! Bad behaviors are practically non-existent if you're focused on doing GOOD ones.

Think about it: if you are working at having good conversation, how likely are you to AO or make DJs? If you're working to meet your spouses need for O&H, are you going to do that by being dishonest? If you're working to follow POJA, how much IB can you do?

I can see how that would work if BOTH spouses are working it. But if only one spouse is working it, then it seems to make sense that I'd need to work on LBs first.

I don't mean to make a debate out of it, just trying to address the poster's situation in which there is a very resistant spouse, in which she can't rely on HIS bad behaviors stopping, or even mutual O&H.

Why do you think it won't work with only one spouse doing it?

What do you think will be gained by eliminating LBs but not meeting needs (yet)? Love?

I think if you have a counselor telling you to do one thing, you follow his/her instructions. In the case of SH, he has you do the ENQ first and THEN, very soon after, the LBQ. He has very specific instructions for how you are to share information and you counsel with him before making a plan.

In your case, I'd go with the general wisdom of the posters here who have done the LBQ (without counseling, successfully), because yes, as fast as you fill up that bucket, you're going to empty it with LBs . So eliminate those first.

cwmi, it may differ with the circumstances. If my H goes on a date night with me, and then approaches SF in a way that would cause me pain, what's the point? I think there are situations where the LBs need to be addressed, to "stop the bleeding" so to speak, and I think in your case, mistaken or correct, I thought LBs would be the place to start for you. Because you are already great at the ENs that your H identifies - special exercise to reshape your body, lots of SF, vegan cooking, great with the house and kids. And when Steve started working with you, he started with the IB, and then moved on to RC, correct?

And oh my goodness girl I know I've talked to you about planning fun RC time and again

lol, ned, I finally got permission from the boss to push that issue, and H is instructed to joyfully participate.

Intuitively, this makes a whole lot of sense.

It seems that simultaneously working on both of these is the way to go...

OK...

Dr Harley called me last night to follow up and told me to just keep chipping away at my DH's refusals, but the convo was awkward & quite brief because DH was nearby.

I followed up with DH today and, though this post is lengthy it is the short version because our conversation was about 2.5 hours... It began with a brief discussion about adding onto the shed. As I mentioned before, I am very hesitant to run up any more credit card bills addng things onto the house / property if we're not planning on staying together. He said from his POV, it makes the house more appealing to potential buyers but he agreed not to take any action on it. Turns out that the contractor was a no-show anyhow. That's how we were able to have such a long conversation. DH said that he has made the committment to care for me until my feet are healed and he would stay in the house until we were financially able to live separately - perhaps a year or two. Lots of folks are doing that. If we divorce now, we'll both be ruined because the loan will be in default. I revealed to DH how this situation is affecting me: I am not sleeping or eating well. I feel anxious most of the time. His small talk with me, elevated attention giving to our son, & invitations for me to go on errands / watch movies with him are confusing and painful for me. Maybe me accepting the end of our marriage will mean that those feelings / symptoms I am having will fade, but I am not willing to live in this house with him for an extended period of time in that state, and if we are divorcing I would want to move on with my life a.s.a.p. We also talked about the requirement in VA of maintaining separate households for a year to get a no-fault divorce. We talked about having a "civilized divorce" where we decide how things will work rather than the lawyers or the judge.

That was the opener...We talked about so many things in that 2.5 hours...

When I asked what he thought about scheduling to speak with a marriage coach, he said he didn't want to talk about it (this has been his immediate response to any attempts at discussing our current state - VERY frustrating!) but then he did start talking. He said he tried 3 times to get me to address the abuse issue (my side of it) on my own so we could move forward together and he is now far too "tired" to try a 4th time. He stated that he is a 3 strikes and you're out type of person. (That sounds odd to me...This is our lives, not baseball. ) He said that he is mentally & physically tired, although some mornings he wakes up thinking he wants to try and other mornings he wakes up and thinks he doesn't. I asked him plainly if he has feelings for me at all - the feelings a man has for a woman. At first he said he didn't love me anymore and that shocked me. I must have looked hurt because he immediately apologized and said he can't say he doesn't love me anymore but he does not LIKE me anymore. I said I felt the same way and that we've both made massive withdrawls from the "Bank of Like." He said that love isn't enough to keep things together, we have to like each other too. That's the glue. I said that it's so incredible he put it that way because that's the same things which are being said here & I believed that liking each other was possible again becasue of the info I found here & from speaking with Dr H.

I pointed out that since we will not know the status of our loan until July and we have to be here in the house together anyway, what's the harm in doing a little research to find out if we can change our situation in the meantime? He shook his head negatively and said it's too late, he is just not willing to try. Then he talked about the cost ($195 per session) & how Dr H was probably all about money. I countered that a divorce is more costly - financially & emotionally. I said I know he respects my opinion & he knows I don't fall for games...I sincerely feel that Dr H can help us because he has dealt with thousands of couples just like us.

During this conversation, DH admitted without any prompting from me that he had simply exchanged physical abuse for verbal abuse (his words). So interesting --> For the first time I was able to speak openly to him about how the abuse made me feel and the fact that he is verbally abusive now. I explained that I was in a very dark place as a result of the abuse. He made lots of specific references to things that happened year by year for the past 4 years, mostly pertaining to me resisting therapy & counseling. He said he is / was not satisfied with my efforts at adressing the abuse on my own. He said he asked me to do that so we could then see someone together. I did attend group counseling with other abused women two years ago. I came back from a few of the sessions and told I did not like what was happening in the group because the focus seemed to be "How do I get rid of this guy. He is still abusing me & doesn't think it's wrong." instead of saving marriages. Many people believe that abusers don't change and that the way to deal with verbal / physical abuse in a romantic relationship is to end the relationship. The couselors running that group definitely thought this way. I explained that this is why I thought Dr H & the info here was so wonderful. The goal is to save marriages. He maintained his position that I did not attempt to address the abuse adequately from my side, and kept shaking his head and saying that "it's too late" and "I just don't feel like trying." Plus, he said, the only reason I am so interested in doing something proactive now is that I know "it's going to end soon." He said he is very angry about me not doing this back when he suggested it. (Said this many times in the conversation.) I explained to him that I was very proud of him as a husband and that all the statements I made about what a good spouse he was to my family and friends only served to isolate me when I needed someone to talk to about the abuse. I said I kick myself everyday for not being ready at the same time he was but can he not forgive me for that & see that I am ready now + join me? I said I stll loved him and was committed to making our marriage work. I was finally in a place where I had good information and, yes, it was a big thing - to hear my spouse say they want a divorce.


He said that he thinks I still have to work through my feelings about the abuse and if we are going to stay married and re-build our marriage I would need to address that. I agreed with that (and I took it as a hopeful point because now he was using the word "if" instead of finalities. In fact, towards the end of the discussion he made lots of "if we are going to stay married" and "whether we decide to go through with the divorce or stay married" statements.) I discussed how I had started seeing an individual therapist before my feet were operated on... and the only reason I wasn't currently seeing her is the logisitcs of all the medical appointments related to my feet. I said intend to continue to see her in a few days when I am able to drive myself.

DH said he thinks this is just lip service & he can't let himself believe or think that things can / will change. We both agreed that this has more to do with him than with me. When he brought up the fact that he concealed his financial situation from me in the beginning of our relationship & that he did not see any way to get out of the financial situation... but he eventually did get it resolved with my help, I took that as an opportunity to say that although he couldn't see a way out of our current situation, there may be a way because we have good info and a plan. We talked about staying in an unhappy marriage for "the kids" and how we both promised ourselves we would never do that because of the unahppiness for us as individuals and because of the damage to the child. Children aren't blind. But I did ask what would be wrong with researching / making an effort / trying for the sake of the kids? Not to stay for the kids - but to "try"..What difference does it make why you try to do something positive as long as the outcocme itself is positive and you are successful? I gave the example of trying to lose weight because you are going on a cruise & want to look good in speedos, trying to lose weight because your lab tests came back saying your cholesterol levels are near fatal, or trying to lose weight because your brother keeps making fun of your weight. Whichever reason you pick... you go ahead and start a weight loss program & if you are successful you lose weight, feel better, and look better. I said it wouldn't be wrong if he used his love for our child to give him the energy / motivation he needs to try one more time. I said I am using the fact that I love him & want to save our marriage plus the concern about our child as my motivation for trying.

We talked about the concept of dishonesty in our relationship and made a few honest statements about our feelings, behaviors, and unfair / damaging actions towards each other & our marriage over the years and now. I talked about how I have engaged in some behaviors identified here as Love Busters and how eye opening the info and the session with Dr H was for me. He talked about some of the dishonesty he engaged in and how embarrassed & disappointed in himself he was about certain things which had happened.

By the end we both agreed that this was a good conversation. I said I thought it was good because we were honest. I asked him to come back and talk with me more when he's ready. I felt I had to take that particular approach because one of the things DH revealed to me about what he doesn't like is that when he says he doesn't want to talk about something, I insist on talking about it. He seems to have forgotten what stonewalling is or that stonewalling is not a relationship building action. In his Domestic Violence class they said that he should tell me he doesn't want to talk about the subject but then tell me that he'd be willing to discuss it later AND THEN make an honest effort to actually discuss it later. Recently in our marriage he does the first thing very well and the second & third very inconsistently. Still, I said that despite my anxiousness about this I would wait for him to come to me and talk more.

As far as Dr Harley's instructions: I did re-introduce the idea about talking with a coach several times in the discussion. No dice and now (as described in the paragraph above) I am stuck in a holding pattern waiting for DH to "think" + hoping he comes back and talks with me about this. My fear: As I said before, my DH seems to be a more negatively oriented person - especially right now because he is unhappy with things and he is in physical pain quite a bit of the time. I fear that he will simply think himself into more negativity although I respect that it's his right to think however he likes. DH claimed he has looked at this site, yet he is still extremely skeptical about Dr Harley (Direct quote: "What makes him qualified to judge me?" + He's just after money.) and very skeptical about my committment to becoming a better spouse ("Why were you not ready when I was ready?", "It's too late now." and "You're only doing this now because you know I am going to divorce you.") I am at a loss as to what to do next other than work on LB and EN and hope for the best.

Does anyone have any observations or suggestions for me? It's very difficult to deal with a spouse who is in withdrawl. Did I make a mistake by even having this conversation or by agreeing to wait? When he first said "I don't want to talk about it." should I have removed myself from the room immediately & then tried again another day? In a way I'm glad we talked because a lot was revealed and in a way I feel "safer" because I got some info / insight into his thoughts, but the fact remains that some of those thoughts make me wonder about him, I am in a holding pattern once again, and he's still "thinking"...We're not cooperatively implementing any plan to save our marriage.

Here's an exerpt from the LB Questionnaire page (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4502_lbq.html)-->



Looks like I was putting the cart before the horse

Chris, wow, I can't believe you did this, got into this conversation, stayed focused on your feelings and behaviors and what you are enthusiastic about and not. I mean, I can believe it, you have showed a deep understanding from the beginning, but all I have to say is, wow, you really carried yourself with grace, and gave your M a huge gift of your perspective today. What would feel like an appropriate way to celebrate this huge step, alone or with your family?

I mean, there are huge things there from your H, too, wow, what a gift, to have that clarity for even a moment from such a swirl of confusion, anger, resentment. Maybe a peaceful Family Fun Night together?

I thought I had seen that quote somewhere. Perhaps SH follows a different game plan when counseling with him. I know I was a bit surprised he instructed us to share our EN questionnaire before the LB one. But then when I thought about it, it made sense, because he was very clear that we were sharing/exchanging information ONLY and not making a plan. We were to talk with him again. We haven't done that yet, but I'm predicting he'll have us work on the LBs first. Perhaps that is where you became confused Chris?

So definitely then, LBs before ENs. You can't fill up a bucket with holes in it.

Congrats on the convo w/ your husband.

Celebrate together? Doubtful NED, I mean - we're not there yet...My DH is IBing in front of the television at the moment & seems a little annoyed again.

I realize that he's moody & I know why: He is a person who is unhappy about several aspects of his life including our M. He stated - no peace @ work & no Peace @ home = no peace and no refuge anyplace. Check.

I also read this thread ...especially Star's post about her DH feeling that the changes were temporary and decided to "clean up my side of the street"...Not sure how I will do that yet - need more thought and I am going to peruse some of the books / CDs this evening....perhaps I'll also try to complete the LB Questionnaire from what I gather his perspective to be and work from there.

Again, my DH is in withdrawl, although he did tell me something which I did this evening which annoyed him. (Signs of emerging into "Conflict" stage?)

In that same discussion I mentioned above, someone expressed the opinion that "You can ask but that's about it. Any wheedling, nagging or otherwise trying to 'educate your spouse' falls firmly in the DJ camp, according to the Harleys." So I am conflicted about the conversation. I am asking myself: Was I wrong to relate so many points to MB principles & Dr. Harley? GAH! What do you guys think?

I am trying to be positive and trying to remember that even if this doesn't work out, the skills I learn here will make me better prepared for any future relationships (I worry whether I can find love again at 38 and being a single mom...is that stupid?)

Yep - holey bucket. Check.

I'm so happy for you that you are working this with your spouse. Actually, I envy you


Thanks.

Chris, my main thread is called Am I Off Track? Because I thought if I just worked the program better, more "On Track," my marriage would fall into place. MB was yet another set of standards that I was holding my behavior to.

Four years later, Chris, I would tell you, it's not about having the perfect conversations with the perfect point lists in the perfect order. It's about loving on your marriage using these tools here, the O&H, thoughtful requests, respectful persuasion, POJA, meeting ENs. That's what you did today, hon, all of it. You shined.

Thanks NED. I'm going to check out your thread.

This morning I am awake too darned early. I have been on an emotional rollercoaster riding back and forth between numbness, hope, despair, frustration, & fear and I do not look forward to my day existing like this. I realize I am not the first person to go through this, but I still feel pretty bad. It is difficult to concentrate at work. THIS SUCKS.

I am still relatively dependent on my spouse for assistance - driving me to medical appointments and to + from work, helping me in and out of the shower, and giving me an injection each evening. Could this be part of why he is feeling like he is "done"? During our discussion I asked him about this and offered to try to gove him space and commute with a friend (have a friend drive my vehicle). He was very much against that...he cited the extra gas costs and the car insurance. He also stated that sometimes he needs to vent about work and he "uses" me for that. Um...I did not like how he put that but it could have been just a poor choice of words. I have a medical appointment coming up soon and I am hoping that I will be cleared to drive by myself. That may end our joint commute and give him more time alone to "think".

We stopped sleeping in the same bed a few weeks ago (when I got home from the hospital) because I have to sleep with my left leg elevated. It will be interesting to see what happens when that is no longer the case. We have had bouts of not co-sleeping before, for example... after operation number 1 where the other leg had to remain elevated and then there was the time period before he got his CPAP machine for sleep apnea and the snoring prevented me from getting any sleep. I noticed that when we were not co-sleeping things seemed to get worse between us. I am thinking part of that is that, for him, the EN of SF went to zero during those times. Anyway, we have the CPAP machine now & the feet / leg issue will disappear forever over the next few weeks.

At this point, I am going to try to go back to sleep.

Today, we spent some time together:

DH was outside & I decided to just get on my crutches and hop out there too. We talked about the yard & about his motorcycle, I complimented him on some painting he had done out there...just small talk.

Next he found out a certain cellphone may be available @ a really low price and was super excited to go and buy it. He wanted me to go. This is a problem (LB) for me...not sure which one though...maybe someone can define it for me: I feel that he uses shopping as a form of therapy. He seems happier when he is about to shop and while shopping. I feel that rather than deal with problems head on, he shops. This is part of the reason for our credit card bills together and likely the reason for the debts he hid from me when we first started out.

Initially I resisted and said, "If the only way you can enjoy my company is to buy something, I will stay right here." But, he was persistent about wanting me to go, so I went. During the trip to the store, he brought up the shed addition thing again. He and our son had been out earlier & saw something with potential @ Lowe's. He said that "IF we decide to go with building the shed, we found something @ Lowe's." Since our son was present, I responded "You know how I feel about that." (Recall my post about our last convo where I say I don't want to add onto the house or incur any more debts if we are going our separate ways.)

Later after family dinner which was really nice & comfortable, we spent some time alone talking about more small talky type of things. Schoolwork, the book series he is reading, work...

I felt that we had a "good" day. I asked him that too. I said, "We had a good day today, right?" He agreed.

Not sure where this is going or exactly how I feel about all of this. Right now, he is nice but he could easily become angry and verbally abusive again since it is in his nature. I have ordered the book Women Who Love Too Much which was recommended to me by thinkingitthru in another thread. If this becomes a divorce and I am dating again, I want to make sure I do not pick another angry man. I want to have healthy and safe relationships in my future.

Good day to everyone,

I am still feeling confused and awful.

I made two appointments with my therapist, and the first one is in 3 weeks. Hopefully I will not have lost my mind by then.

I think I will hold off on making another appointment with Dr H. I need to find out what I want. Right now I am questioning myself and my reasons for wanting to stay married to a man who is so ready to walk away from our marriage and the type of man who would inform me of it in an angry way while I was in a physically vulnerable position. I need to find out why I am fighting to stay married to an angry person. I want to desire good things and maybe this is my wake up call that I have something inside me to fix as far as the types of things I want.

Fred in VA said very early in this thread that the Physical Abuse should have been a dealbreaker. There are many people who feel that way & I felt that way until it actually happened to me. But I did not break the deal when it happened. I practically begged this person to stay with me. The big question is: Why did I do that?

I don't know if anyone has some word of encouragement / observations / guidance to give...but I would welcome it.

I did order that book "Women WHo Love too Much" & it's on the way. I also ordered "Lovebusters" and "His Needs Her Needs", but I am SO unsure about what I am doing here.