Chris, I did not leave my physical abuser until I saw that staying meant my certain death. It wasn't until I realized that 'saving' him was not my job, but saving me was. I didn't leave in a heat...I snuck out quietly while he was sleeping and ran, ran, ran...he was arrested several times after that for crimes against me, then eventually moved on to another girl, who he shot.

I can't say why you did it. I can only say that why I stayed so long (which was 10 months) was because I had never encountered such evil before and did not acknowledge that it existed before I met that man. I beleived that everyone had a good core. I was wrong.

Hi CW,

My H has not been physically abusive for almost 4 years; however, he (by his own admission) exchanged physical abuse for verbal abuse. (his words)...

I am confused because the way I see it - he is two people: 1) The abuser (the angry person with the yelling, cursing, and ugly faces) and 2) the good guy who takes care of me and our son. These dynamics are driving me absolutely crazy.

My questions are:
-What if the past 4 years is merely some sort of extended "honeymoon phase" in The Cycle?
-Did he stop the physical abuse because he knows I will call the police? (He said that people don't lose their Security Clearance or job because of physical abuse arrests / convictions. It's usually financial stuff that gets people in trouble. And, to this day he has never looked ME in the eye and said he was wrong.

One person here has said that I need to stop thinking about his thought processes and asking the sorts of questions above...worry about myself, but the mind is an involuntary muscle.

Chris,

I hear you have been and are in an emotional rollercoaster, going between leaving/staying, looking at his reactions to you and your reactions to him. I read your posts, sharing your experience, like the not sleeping together times, marriage seems to get worse.

Which I take you to mean that the co-sleeping together times, marriage seems to get better.

This is unusual or wrong...your awareness of the state of the marriage is important. You said early in your thread that you didn't think that the resentment (the elephant in the room) was unusual, that you were guessing it was pretty common...

and you were correct.

Doesn't change that its toxic.

You ask why you'd be attracted to an angry person...would you consider that part of our opposites attraction is that our partners can express what we believe we cannot? My DH loved that I was so expressive (initial attraction), my verbal acuity...and it was also what became a huge LB to him (verbal abuse). See, he saw me angry at others in the beginning and believed I could never be that way with him...

he was attracted very much to me because I could express his anger...vicariously. And he could still stay "ahead" or "above" me because he didn't stoop to express his anger...

And to me, the same opposite thing was his reserve, thinking before he spoke...understated verbal expression and succinct eloquence (ain't limerance grand?).



And so, too, our undoing...because this was also his silent treatment, his shut out and his lying by omission.

I stopped acting out his anger...and because we both choose to work on our marriage for two years and then decide to call it quits or not, we discovered DH acted out his anger in many ways (and me, too)...passive aggression...learned as I said before, that silent treatment was verbal abuse...and these really are with the Love Busters:


Love Busters Section - Basic Concepts

When I stopped my many LBs, and began to state my emotions, instead of demonstrate, I really changed our relationship...because it's a dance, Chris...you both dance together (even when you feel it's apart)...so when you change your steps, everything changes.

Would you consider your DH may have asked for a divorce when he did because he experience more intimacy in his physically taking care of you? Acts of love do that...and there is love in duty, obligation, keeping promises and it's an intimate choice...

just as your dependency on him may have allowed him to really share what has been in his brain these past few years...where you didn't see how deeply he feared your rejection, felt total blame and fault from you, and saw your choice to marry him, remarry him after the incident and stay as you staying above him, the martyr (which may be why he was so attracted to you in the beginning...as you didn't look like a martyr, but an exceptionally kind, generous caregiver...nirvana...until like the majority of us...when you hit the second stage of marriage, what attracted begins to repulse, becomes intolerable...which is why it's so darn confusing.

We come together meeting ENs we didn't know we had...and in the first stage of marriage, we don't even see what the other does, or what we do, to meet ENs...and there just hardly aren't any LBs (though you experienced physical abuse before marriage...so did my DH experience verbal abuse before marriage and still married me anyway). When we're hit with REAL selves, the all of us coming out more and more over time, that second stage of love feels like we were tricked, robbed, beguiled and manipulated.

That's the beginning of real intimacy. Knowing each others real selves...so your DH sharing his weariness, when he asked you to work on your part...possibly to learn true forgiveness, let go resentment for real, live in the present with him, the new him, and be deeply intimate with him...to know him and allow him to know you new, today...he thinks he asked three times...and feared each time greatly, so that your seeming refusal now justifies him not asking again...

and yet, as you recognized, he really did ask again. Least you seemed to do that right after you mocked him in your head...which is progress. Maybe previously, you mocked him outloud? Again, my DH was in your place, abused...and he was abusive, too...mockery, calling it a joke, was one of the ways...along with the distancing (without knowing when he'd stop distancing or why)...many ways. Examining your own stuff IS an act of love for you, your DH and your marriage. Not about blaming, defining who caused, cured or controlled...

Knowing yourself more...and more. Seeing yourself as the whole, complete person, equally powerful and limited as your DH. That's the important part of partnering...

About your DH suddenly acting better with the kid, paying more attention, then glancing to see if you noticed...please leave room to not know, 'k? I see you do the killer DJs...trying to think up your DH which actively prohibits KNOWING him new, today.

Ask, not assume. Share your perspective..."Here's what I see/think/feel/believe" as your own...with him. Tiny statements...and don't allow yourself to guess or assume...even with years of proof. Because today, right now, you get to choose your own goal...

To really know who your DH is today, right now...or not. It's a daily choice. And celebrate your great choice to talk...and that he talked to you...and he did say, "I don't want to" and then he did. That's not crazy or him lying...he didn't react to his feelings and NOT talk...he stated he didn't want to, and shared with you anyway.

That's your question earlier...I heard you ask "am I really trying to save my marriage or not?" due to your current feelings. Your goals do NOT come from your feelings, Chris. You set your goals from what you truly want (for the parents of your child to be in love with each other, thriving in marriage) and the feelings will follow.

Like your DH...caring, providing, doing for you in what you may see as extraordinary ways right now given your surgery...whether he liked you or not...whether he wanted to or not...he did so and felt closer to you as a result. What he shared may have felt frightening, horrifying, angering or painful to you...step back and see the whole...a lot of parts...and honor yourself to know he shared...

And please stop offering to replace these intimate acts with others...because when we do grave harm, we seek redemption...don't reject his acts of love, accept his choices before you even know his why's...you've been expressing appreciation and admiration for his choices, seems to me, and he likes that very much. And I think, he very much loves you, loves caring for you, and feels incredible exposure to the smallest painful rejection, fear of being decimated by you...not being enough for you.

You have an H working with you, Chris...you said so in your post about the 2.5 hour conversation you guys just had...THAT is working together...see it not as perfection...but reality--that's him working with you, on the marriage. Admitting his verbal abuse...which means you both can come up with a plan for that...admitting yours...sharing your own changes with him, for you and the marriage...

And my DH was a shopaholic. Again, I hear you. I was the miser, the fiscally responsible one...which was an attraction point to my DH before marriage...and many years afterward, became a parental shaming point...he would go on spending binges and I would berate...kept our parental marriage going, our cycles of abuse and justification going...and guess what? He isn't a shopaholic anymore! And guess what? When I stopped my half of the cycle, the parenting, he stopped...

I didn't make him. I just stopped what I came to recognize as my part. Wasn't what I really wanted, anyway. Was not who I really was...complaining I didn't have a man for a H, but a child...all the while I was acting like his parent not his partner.

Embarrassing and very true. Oh, and one last coincidence...I read "Women who love too much" in 1986, on month before I met my DH. That book was the reason I chose to even date DH. LOL.

I pray for you to learn to love with abandon, again, Chris...to experience upward spirals and deep trust in your marriage...even when you don't feel like it with your DH.

I chose to stay for my marriage, for my redemption, when my DH was actively walking away, and I don't judge him for that. I believe it's healthy to have a walking away point...as your very last boundary enforcement. If he had another A, that would be mine. If I did, that's his. And in between, we check ourselves first...to see if we begin experiencing each other as we once were...if indeed part of it is because we are ACTING as we once were...doing and not doing what hurt each other.

There is no type of man...there is the man I married...who is complex, different than the image I'd made up in my head, a new person to me every day...my partner...this human being, changing, growing, aging and revealing more of himself...over time...no type. He was a man with many addictions...and him conquering them is amazing to watch...takes time, me knowing they are NOT about me...and me, my addiction was him, watching for relapses.

I don't believe in an angry person. Part of what we did as children was define our whole being by one emotion...and we are not. We feel anger; we are not anger. In tiny narrow ways, we can kill what we love most, from fear. And believing what cannot be true.

LA

LA,

Wow & thank you so much.

There are so many things in your post, and being that you are writing from the persepctive of the verbally abusive spouse, your words gave me a whole new outlook on what his perspective may be. I didn't perceive his fear of me rejecting him but anger and bullying. I did not consider that I may be attracted to him because I have trouble expressing anger...I say that because when I get irritated / pissed off, I usually say so - just not in an uncivilized / nasty way. Still, your points are very good ones.

One thing which I am unsure about is this:


Logically what you say here makes sense. It's the "no-brainer" question that Dr H asked me to pose to my spouse. Of course, it's the most desireable outcome: for the parents of our child to be in love with each other, thriving in marriage...But my emotions are confusing and frustrating as you said. There's also the idea that a great many people refer to physical abuse as one of the two valid reasons for giving up on a romantic relationship (the other being infidelity) and I said the same thing in the past, yet I was unable to follow through at the right moment. I feel like a coward.

Can I be honest about some other feelings?
I don't feel he felt / feels closer to me by caring for me. Maybe that's a dynamic present in the female brain, but a male's? (Any men want to weigh in on this?) I feel that he viewed / views it as a burden (he has said as much - "It's just one more thing I have to do. I have to take care of our son, you, the house, my schoolwork, etc etc"...) ...I feel that he's doing it out of some sense of duty or obligation. The "I want a divorce" announcement came in a moment of anger - not in a moment of "intimacy." To be clear: I was asking about my medication dosage times because what he had written on the white board confused me, and he went off saying "When your feet are healed, I'm divorcing you! I'm not going through this crap with you again! When your mother comes, SHE can help you in the shower!" I said "But she's not my husband, you are." and he said "I'm not your husband anymore!" ...This was a hurtful and disgusting exchange. I had just been released from the hospital and was confused about a lot of things (hence my question about the meds). Narcotics will do that to you. But LA - are you saying it's possible to experience intimacy and anger concurrently? If so, please explain this a bit more.


What you said here was the most clear for me:


You also said (& I see that now): resentment is toxic, and I want to let it go. I need to let it go.


The LB book will arrive soon. I'll start there while I decide where I am really going with this. A few days ago, I felt like if I could just get him to agree to speak with Dr H we'd behalfway there. Now, I worry that this time will simply be one more thing I am required to forgive & not resent. Plus I worry that I will feel like I BEGGED this time as well. I want to be with someone who wants to be with me, I don't want to have to "make" them do it. But maybe, beyond raw physical attraction, that expectation or want is not realisitc. Logically, I know that people may initially be attracted by our looks but they stay attracted to us because of the way we make them feel when they are with us. And, I haven't been making him feel good to be with me. No matter what I say that is the truth. Which brings m to the LBs...

For now I can work on the LBs + try to change my steps (as you put it ) and see if our dance changes. Maybe if I can focus on that, I can get some emotional calm going at this time.

I do appreciate your responses (and everyones').

Thank you

Would you consider that your decisions to stay, in the past, are in the past? Today, he is not physically abusive and hasn't been. He is verbally abusive and admits it (first step).

So what you choose today, as your goal, is about who you are today and who he is...and I can tell you how normal and hurtful it is to keep seeing your spouse as he was, and yourself, as you were. You felt like a coward. You are not a coward now. Seems like you're really examining your past decisions.

Resentment isn't a battle because it's simple. It's an ongoing battle for most because it's tricky, manifesting in different ways--and it does so because for each path to it that you recognize, it creates another path you don't recognize...

until you do.

Here's some of the ways I have recognized over the last six years in myself...one, I allow my thoughts to repeat questions I've answered...my own why's...there I am, choosing the same thoughts, dwelling on something in my past, even after I had done that mental dance and gotten to acceptance that what I chose then I would not choose now.

It was my Resentment trapping me...and in my old ways of not holding to my goal to stay aware, I quickly sink into what happened before, taking my senses off what is really is now.

Resentment harms everyone...it's a poison we take, wishing the other person would die. (WhoDat said that here on MB originally, from altering a Harold Kraus quote.) It poisons the marriage...and we can figure out where we are creating and maintaining resentment in ourselves, hence, in the marriage. And we can stop. Make new goals. Live in a new way. And yes, we can slip back...which is why I think MB saying to POJA everything...to ask for your spouse's help as you battle your sneaky Resentment is essential. It's not what you want...not really.

Reasonable that your emotions are confusing and frustrating. They are a direct result of your actions...and your thoughts. I don't believe you want to live in the past. Just your Resentment wants you there, wants to keep you there, dogging you, telling you that you were wrong, a screw-up, missed your chance. Which leaves you very unsteady today (perfect to keep the resentment brewery open and doing business). Resentment is healthy when it's a signal to you about your actions in the present...it is toxic when it's in the past, invading your present and tormenting a future that isn't real and isn't really here.

To make a decision now, for yourself, ask yourself the same question...can you imagine a better scenario for you than to be in love with your DH in a thriving marriage? For you, that would take him rebuilding your trust, and you, rebuilding your own trust in yourself and your choices.

You can do that. You are capable and so is he...you are brave, strong and learning...you're studying how to live differently, gathering a lot of information. Choose your goal and make a plan to that goal...there's no downside. No matter what happens, you'll know you truly did everything possible for the marriage. In the process, you will heal the coward you perceived yourself to be.

I'm like you about believing that my DH doesn't feel closer to me when he acts from obligation...rather, past tense. I discounted and dismissed a lot of his choices (part of my deep disrespect) because of my resentment...it was projection on my part...because when I acted through sacrifice, which was my martyr/abuser keystone, I called it duty, obligation.

Easy to see where that would seem reasonable instead of harmful and destructive now.

Resentment is sneaky like that...because it takes a truth and hits close to it, calling one thing something else...don't fall for it anymore. See, there are three parts of your marriage...there's your half, your DH's half, and The Marriage. The Union. What Resentment doesn't want you to know (makes every thought about the other person in the marriage) is that you can honor The Marriage even when you don't FEEL like honoring your spouse.



Helps to break the "I feel therefore I act" backwards routine that Resentment thrives on...because Resentment has control when you react to it...it's powerless when you don't.

So it depends on you feeling and then reacting. Instead of thinking and choosing your actions...then understanding the feelings that follow.

Which is why MB is pro-active...Take action...do, not because you feel like it...do and your loving feelings will follow. Helps us get turned around in the correct direction...and beats the heck out of living backwards, from our feelings.

Which is why I probably heard in a previous post that you were questioning your goal based on your feelings...like you'd picked the wrong goal because your feelings were frustrated and confusing.

I retrained my brain with the policy of Radical Honesty. In my verbal abuse, I would make a lot of "you" statements when I thought I was asking for information (my DJs did this)...in example, "You're just taking care of me out of duty. I'm a burden on you and you hate me, which is why you want to divorce me."

Instead...my first steps of injecting true respect into my half of the marriage, the statement would have been, "I am afraid right now and feel as if I'm a burden which you hate, which is why you want to divorce me. I'm assuming you're taking care of me out of duty and obligation. I know behind these feelings, I hate being dependent, not in control, right now, feel vulnerable and feel loved by you deeply right now, when I remind myself to just see your actions as solely your choices."

All up to my own radical honesty inside and with my spouse. My DH was a huge part of helping me ridding DJs from my mind...which are an integral part of Resentment (I think it's their favorite LB tool). I asked him to help me stop love busting him...to stop disrespecting him, abusing him. And he did. To me, an act of love...a brave one.

I hear your DH saying "I want you to love, admire me, appreciate my actions...I'm blowing myself away with all I'm able to do right now, to accomplish. I want to hear I'm your hero, I'm a good man, a worthy husband. All I hear is criticism, that I can't change from a bad man into a good one, that you will live in the past and keep rejecting my love." Ask a few H's here on MB...they often experience their wives as constantly rejecting them...themselves, their actions, because their wives are determined to NOT share honest and open admiration, appreciation, awareness for their actions. Because often, one partner is focused on what they lack...and their focus grows it bigger so they can't see how they live in abundance. Lack blocks.

He can hear you as constantly critical, putting him down, degrading him when you are not doing so. So asking him for your own clarity, unless you'd established a solid record of NOT second-guessing him, double-checking his decisions, not trusting him to do the right thing, won't be heard as you intended. Only you know. I'm telling you that in my experience, when humans abuse, they are afraid. Their experience of fear is VERY real...they hear put downs, feel attacked, degraded and less than others...and it's really tough to hear in our own ears what they hear in theirs.

The beauty is that intimacy, the four rules of marriage, can get you both there. Because your DH can blurt out the divorce desire in a moment of intense pain exhibited in anger...and yes, it can be intimate.

Conflict is the second state of mind in marriage, closest to Intimacy for that very reason. Sometimes anger can spur honesty after years of lying by omission...which is the pattern of allowing resentment to grow from our own choice to NOT speak, not ask for our spouse's help, to not say "this is an LB to me"...

Much better to follow the PORH instead, though. No build up, no acting out...and I heard in your post that your DH believes he's told you what he needs most from you and that you reject him...have been unwilling to give it to him. Again, not you making him act out, blurt out...totally your responsibility to take that information (that he doesn't want a marriage like the one he's experiencing right now) and examine what you may or may not have done.

And amend it...do the repairs through recognition...only way out of the fault/blame game is ownership. Frees you and him.

See if you can remove your assumptions...like the one that he's doing it out of duty or obligation. Removal looks like this:

He's doing it. He's acting. Stop there. That's reality. Leave it clean and clear.

Have you told him you weren't doubting him when you asked, though you could understand if he head you differently? That you were afraid, and he wasn't making you afraid? That you didn't doubt his competency? That your own issues with control are yours?

See, even in the past can be repaired, slowly, carefully, with ownership...when you strive first to understand, then be understood. I believe your DH really wants you to partner with him in repairing the past (can't undo), learn how to actively forgive...maybe to learn how acceptance is not approval...and really hear each other.

Maybe what you wrestle with is that unbeknown to you, you strive first to be protected, then to protect. Assumptions will do that...my DH struggles with that to this day...because his DJs in his head, what still justify his reactions to his fear, sometimes get the best of him. I gotta be there, to listen for his DJs, inside and out, just as he did for me. I want to be there for him...and I thrive to be able we're still in this marriage, together.

For I was forgiven so much. And my DH says the same thing. Beyond anything that could be justified or deserved...we forgiving and forgiven. That's when resentment shrinks, finally, back to a signal we're feeling hurt and feeling like hurting back...not something we do anymore. At times, something we feel.

You heard in your narcotic haze something very important...and now is the time (you're healing, not hazy) to gently ask for 15 minutes to share..."I was thinking about you saying you wanted a divorce and that you didn't want to be my husband anymore. Did I hear you correctly back then?"

Listen and repeat...and no, you weren't in shape to hear it then...no reason to not clarify or confirm now. If this is true, state it:

"You're really important to me. I want to understand what you say and not assume your reasons for saying. I want to clearly hear and not refute you." That's an amend. Within a goal statement. And it's what you want from him and have wanted your whole marriage...for him to understand (know) you, accept you, not judge your why's...not refute who you are.

Sometimes, what we most crave we are least giving. A signal, not a condemnation.

Connecting through Conflict...not avoiding it, not soothing over or walking around on eggshells...going through, together, honestly, respectfully, not basing our choice to be honest on their possible response. Seeking to really hear, understand, validate and acknowledge...NOT agree or get in agreement with us.

Takes us changing our goals from "My goal is to feel loved" to "I want to act from love in my marriage, as a parent, and in my life."

Healthy boundaries go around ourselves...unhealthy (harmful) boundaries go around others.

The way I let 16 years of resentment go was our MC had us do a resentment timeline. Was really freeing for me...others who have tried it here on MB, not so much.

As for asking DH to speak with Harley again...I would go for Radical Honesty..."DH, I can really understand your not wanting to make falling in love with me, the mother of your child, as your goal. I asked you and I hadn't made that my highest goal, either. I didn't feel like it. I don't trust you or myself to get there. I've thought some more, though, and I have no doubt at all that the path to my ultimate happiness truly is being in love with you, the father of my child, my husband."

I don't think "forgive and not resent" is what you've really been doing, though you have felt as if you were...because Resentment is that tricky...can make "conflict avoidance" seem as if that's not what you're doing...which you now know is "connection avoidance". It's about control, not love. Not what you really want. You want to inject respect, honesty and acts of care into your half of the marriage.

I was a master of self-deception, though, until I really set my goals and went for them. I caught myself rationalizing choosing them...and that's self-manipulation, not honest or respectful. Not even real. "What if our marriage is sunk already, broken beyond repair? All that wasted effort."

Lies to self. No action, thought, word or deed is wasted. Everything has impact, consequences...it ripples. I can sure experience myself as if I don't. And blame it on my DH.



LA

That was great LA. I read it 4 times and I'll re-read it again tomorrow.

I am blown away.

I re-read what you wrote a few times again today LA.

I am struggling with it... a little. I am working on trying to accept his acts of taking care of me and the pleasant conversations at face value and not worry about the "why" behind it.

Today we had a pretty good day despite the fact that it started out with me causing us to leave the house late for work. DH called it to my attention respectfully. I apologized for it and said I would do better. He was skeptical, he said this has happened before..my change lasts about a day and then it's right back to the same old thing. Unfortunately there was also an accident on the highway which compounded the problem.

On the way home DH respectfully told me that it (the lateness) caused a prob for him @ work. I told him I was very sorry that happened to him, I said had been thinking about it all day - especially since I hadn't heard from him. I told him I was hoping he didn't walk into some kind of "ambush" because of it. (The woman he works with right now is an a-hole) I told him I know you said that I change for a day and then go right back to being late, but I'm going to do it this time. What happened was my fault and I am an adult. I will make sure I am ready to leave on time from now on.

I felt that was a positive exchange.

Later this evening, DH told me to get off his computer so I asked "Is there a reason that I can't use your computer? (He wasn't on it.) He became defensive and cursed at me. "I don't give a [censored] what you see on my [censored] computer!" I did not react. I stated I wasn't trying to upset him. I was just bored waiting down here (my bandage was in the dryer), anyway - I wasn't on the computer...I braided my hair, and I am happy now because I don't have to go all the way upstairs.

I felt that I reacted appropriately except that I didn't say "Please don't curse at me." Truthfully it didn't anger me when he did it, so maybe that's why I didn't say that. What I was thinking at the time was: If this doesn't work out - I'll be just fine. However, next time it happens I need to say "Please don't curse at me."

I also said that I was sorry he has to do all of "this" referring to taking care of me and cleaning up etc...He said "It is what it is."

I was looking for houses & apartments online today just to see what's out there. I noticed that renting is a lot more expensive than owning. My thing is - I wouldn't want to be responsible for yard work and things like that, so a condo makes sense. I also did some more work on my logistics / information for separation /divorce. I called a friend and talked about little things. I did some breathing exercises and read an article about Dignity & Grace.

La, wow, thanks so much for sharing.

Chris, you were wondering why you didn't leave 4 years ago. Women in abusive relationships are in the most physical danger at the time of separation. Maybe you knew it would be unsafe for you? When someone is physically intimidating, I think the natural instinct is to calm that person back down, to get relief getting back to some relative safety. What do you think? I understand the wanting to make sense of it, as a part of self-forgiveness.

I don't think so NED...He said he would leave / divorce me when he came home from the police station. From what I have read & learned, abusers will not let go of their partner - ie the abuser doesn't want the partner to leave. In my case, he stated he wanted to leave when he got back from the police station.

What I can't figure out is why I didn't just go along with it at the time and why I didin't immediately want to go along with it now in light of the fact that the verbal abuse continues. Perhaps it was / is because I felt / feel that I don't want my son in a "broken home" (though I know that homes which include abuse of any kind are "broken" too) but that dovetails nicely into the feeling that I did / do not want to be some kind of stereotype: "the Single Lonely Woman of Color with a son." ...Or maybe I felt like I wouldn't have enough money to keep my lifestyle...Or maybe it was / is the humiliation of being abused and then DUMPED.

This happened to me before - sort of.

In college I had a boyfriend / fiance who hit me, cheated on me, cheated on me again, and then broke up with me to be with the second person he cheated with (Didn't know about the cheating until later). Our friends were shocked & flabbergasted. This girl did not comb her hair, shower regularly, or show up at class much of the time. His grades plummeted and his personal appearance changed drastically. He continued to contact me after the breakup, the new girlfriend somehow got my phone number and began to call me to make sure I was out of his life. A little later, he got his mother to try and get me to agree to meet for breakfast (which I did) and then lunch (which I didn't) Shortly thereafter I moved. In California, I had a relationship with a man who hit me a few times and then I broke up with him. I got a friend to come with me to get the few things I had left at his apartment. After the breakup, he stalked me... leaving pictures of me on the windsheild of my car.

So, in two out of the total three abusive relationships, the abuser dumped me (the boyfriend / fiance) or expressed the desire to dump ME (my DH). I have had other relationships where abuse was not involved and most of my romantic relationships did not involve physical or verbal abuse. It was the two I talked about above and now my M = three. But one is enough yes? If I end up in a position to choose again, I want to be a better person and I want to be able to detect abusive men in the early dating stages and definitely before I become intimately inolved with them. The obvious guys I can detect - the ones who are mean to servers in restaurants o customer service people, the ones who frequently lose their temper in traffic, and other obvious behaviors that we can google and discover...But these guys were subtle...They started off kind and loving but I am 100% sure there were signs and I am certain that I was either unable or unwilling to see them. This is the main reason why I am eager to get back into therapy.

LA is taking her time to write inspiring, kind, and very educational responses to me about forgiveness & letting go and I am trying to own that - make it part of my thought process; however, I still feel somewhat "dirty" about it. I am sure some people are reading my story and asking themselves why the heck I would choosefight for a marriage with an abusive person (LA please don't take offense)...especially one who has stated at two different points in the M that he wanted out. I am guessing a few people would say that when I BEGGED him to stay after the first time when I called the police - I deserved anything I received after that.

In my current situation so much more is at stake. I have a child, property, and debts with my husband. I am 38. I am not a younger woman without responsibilities. Bottom line, I don't feel 100% good about my wanting to save this marriage and now those feelings are slowly turning into feelings of not wanting to save it.

Today I was ready on time, and I intend to be ready tomorrow and the next day too . My DH thanked me. It seems that our son was making an extra effort to be ready on time as well & DH thanked him too.

Using one of the POJA rules - if one person is becoming hostile / angry stop the discussion & come back to it another time, I reintroduced last night's disagreement about the computer. In an attempt to use some of the communication techniques I am learning here, I framed it this way:


Turns out I misunderstood what he ment to communicate. DH explained he was saying stop doing it (or whatever I was doing)because I shouldn't have had my foot out of the protective boot & flat on the floor - which I would have had to do if I were using the computer. He isn't hiding anything from me. He was able to state this calmly and respectfully. We were in the car commuting to work and he has less of a tendency to become nasty in the car (although it has happened before.) It will be interesting to see if the same dynamic can continue and even improve in other environments - such as the house. I said I understood now.

Anyway...He did not apologize for yelling and cursing at me though, but remarkably - I was OK with that. In my mind I fell short of the PORH because after I said I understood his POV, I did not take it a step further to say: "You yelled and cursed at me" Please don't do that." (Am I now entering Withdrawl?) Then again I could have framed the question above to include the yelling and cursing, but I didn't know how to do that without it being accusatory and eleiciting his shut down /stonewall defense. Maybe I'll be able to be more graceful the next time something like that happens. The concepts here take practice.

Any input is wholeheartedly welcomed. For example, How was my framing? How can I get to the point where I can gracefully include what I left out (my feelings about the yelling and cursing)? As a side note / background info: During our big convo a few days ago, DH acknowledged that he knows I do not like to be yelled at and cursed at. He said that he doesn't mean anything by it and has stated that he simply talks this way. Chris being honest: Not sure I buy it. I have not seen him yell and curse at other people when he is angry / frustrated with them although he has shared stories of yelling and cursing at co-workers or people he supervised when he was active duty.


Here's a separate question about "icky feelings":
As I mentioned earlier, my DH and I were commuting this morning. We picked up a 3rd person so we could use the HOV lanes. Usually the 3rd is a random rider / someone we don't know. This time it was a male who works in my building. He has riden with us a few times already, so they sort of know each other. My DH talked this man's ear off the entire ride. I mean the man barely got in a word edgewise. My DH did not once ask him what he thought as he directed the convo from one topic to the next, he did not do any of the polite conversational conventions such as mirroring, etc. I kept feeling like my DH was being rude and overbearing and & a little desparate even...It embarrassed me and made me a little angry too. I don't know why I felt that way? Any guesses?

My guess is because the rider didn't enforce healthy boundaries.

Which would really hit you hard, right now.

The rider was an equal half in the conversation and he may not have been really listening to your DH. Don't know.

You don't like it when your DH does that to you...and you don't say, "Hold up for a sec. I'm feeling overwhelmed and not heard. Here's what I've heard you say so far."

And maybe you heard DH not mirror because you didn't last night when he LB'd you.

Just guesses.

LA

Oh Chris, I SO feel your pain! I told my counselor how I felt the same way about not wanting to be the single minority mom (among other stereotypes) and questioned why I was so concerned about stereotypes, when all it was doing was adding pressure to stay in an abusive situation where my ex was also increasing our debt at an exponential rate. The longer I stayed, the harder it would be to get out. "Those people" who would "judge me" (and yes, some have since then-I'm not going to sugar coat it) weren't going to pay my bills, take care of my mental health, or help my son recover from the abuse he received. Recovery which, 8 months after I got us out of there, is finally happening.

Not that I'm saying you should pack up and leave-IIRC from other things I've read on this site, there's hope in situations like yours. What I am saying is I wonder if you might be letting the potential negative perceptions of others cause you to act in a way that dishonors yourself.

Contributed through poor boundaries maybe, but DESERVED, never!

Daisy,

It's a relief to hear that my feelings on certain aspects of this stuff are normal. I feel that you are onto something when you say my fear of being judged may have contributed to me staying. I said befoe that I was proud of him as a husband and let many people know I was proud. This only served to make me feel more isolated when I realized there was trouble. Definitely going to bring this up in therapy.

Gradually, I find myself losing interest in learning MB for my M. I am more interested in learning it for myself. Which may actually be progress because it may be the whole point. I am also seeing the unhealthy habits for what they are too..For example, I want to give our child a nice B-day celebration but so far we have spent about $1,200 on a B-day party & gifts for our son, and I am quite disgusted. I think that by the end of this, the grand total will be between $1,500 & $1,700....yet, for DH, marriage counseling is "out of the question" (insert sturgeon face here) & "Dr. H is all about the money." ((eyeroll)). With us being on a forebearance & our mortgage in arrears, is that really smart? As long as I have been with my H, we have been in credit card debt. We used the profits from the sale of our first home to pay off the debts he had when we first started dating and the debts we accumulated together. Then less than a year and a half later, we had the same amnount of credit card debt again! I went along with the cc swiping, so I can't blame him. After looking at this, I vow that I am going to stand up / speak up in the future about using credit whether we stay together or not - if we get separated the joint cc accounts will most definitely be CLOSED. The ones with me as primary will certainly have his name REMOVED.

You are right about digging a deeper hole to climb out of. Right now my share is ~ $23,000 With my salary that's not too bad but it's bad enough to impact my ability to pay rent in a nicer area or buy a condo in a nicer area for about 2 - 3 years. I found a nice apartment community yesterday & the rent is almost $1000 / per month (not including utilities). I could manage that easily if I didn't have to pay all those cc bills - assuming I have to pay half of those...(Yes, I did some math)

LA,

Heck yeah - it bothered me to see that interaction. Part of it is because I really like the person who rode with us and I felt like DH was being rude to him. Plus the bad behavior was freaken embarrassing! The other part of it is that he does this in conversations with me lately. At first I saw it as me meeting the EN of "Conversation"...but it is a bit one sided right now & wearing me out a little. Here's an exerpt about good "Conversation"



From him to me - 2 & 3 are not happening @ the moment. At the end of his catherses, he usually asks how my day went, and I may share something big - main points only - or not at all beyond the surface of "It went well." or "It was OK." because during our big convo he told me that I try to meet my need for Conversation with him a little too much. And so I have been turning to other people to give hinm space. (Truthfully he wasn't talking to me much since the I am divorcing you announcement anyway, and now it seems that there may be an opening or an invitation to return but I have been enjoying conversing a bit more with female friends.)

On the other hand the bad parts described below are not happening (except with that computer thing the other night) either:



Actually, by not giving me an opportunity to contribute to the conversation, isn't he showing disrespect? Then again, I can see that he is so eager to get that stuff out. Specifically - he's been complaining about the things going on at his job while we're together in the car commuting to & from work...He's being being picked at by one of the new people in charge whereas before, he was getting a whole lot of respect & latitude. For example, being late would not have been an issue with the previous person. I see the how this is affecting him and how it pains him (he is upset about it despite his refusal to admit it. He feels disrespected & put down and he is using petty "victories" at work to make himself feel better too. Dangerous!), and he also is turning to me. What does this mean for us? Is he starting to let me back in or just using me as an emotional dumping ground? Not going to think too deeply about his "why" as you said LA...He is being more caring now too. But I know I need to take care of my part of the yelling and cursing vis a vis ignoring / allowing it. Maybe with me setting healthy boundaries on that, it will lead him to make a change. This is part of the MB philosophy...

Thoughts?

I think reading the Conversation article, the information gathering, is a great step on the way to speaking up in the moment. Kind of like when folks learn a foreign language, they understand the language before they get to the stage they speak it.

OK...I'm a little slow tonight. Pls elaborate.

Chris, did you learn a foreign language in high school? When I learned Spanish, at first I could understand when others were speaking, but couldn't respond in Spanish. But as I practiced more, took me a few years, but that's when I could understand and speak. And then I moved out of Miami, and got so out of practice that I understand very little anymore, but that's beside the point

So what I'm saying is that I think you were saying you were disappointed that you didn't speak up in the moment about your H's cursing and yelling. IMO living in the environment that you have, with someone who punishes you time and again (with cursing and yelling) for speaking up, can do that to a person. That's the intent, correct? But you're in a new phase of life, one where you're not going to let yourself get intimidated anymore, because you owe it to yourself and to your marriage to get back into the habit of letting folks know when their behavior is unacceptable to you.

So what I'm saying is that what you did today, posting to a safe place to saf folks about what you're learning, sounds like a great step in the right direction, to get tot the point where you do tell your his cursing and yelling are unacceptable. It may be reasonable to wait until you're at a point where you are more mobile before doing this, I trust your judgment.

Is that a little better?

I felt the same way when I first stumbled onto this site.

My husband and I did Financial Peace University last year. I'll admit, I've been a slacker about budgeting and saving, and we have not been making debt elimination the priority it could be. That said, we have not used credit cards in a year, and I think that is one of the most life-changing things either of us has ever done.

You shared before that your husband doens't think he can do the Dave Ramsey thing because of not having a steady income. That may be. But that is no excuse for not cutting up the credit cards right now and starting to pay cash for monthly expenses. In fact, my own personal income fluctuates a lot, and if I were on my own I don't think I could ever keep up with plastic. When you pay with cash, you spend far less because it is emotionally painful to part with our paper money. Plastic keeps us in denial.

Very clear now. Thank you!


Definitely. I believe that I am dealing with someone who may withdraw their help if they get angry enough. And, it will be a few more weeks until I can totally take care of myself and our child physically.