Yes, and I found another person's thread where they said some very inspiring things about making the MB exploration about themselves rather than their M or their spouse. They said that it was difficult because they felt like they were doing all of the giving, and they felt like giving up several times during the process. As a result of their perserverance, their spouse eventually followed their lead and the marriage improved significantly.


Maybe you are confusing me with another member?

It took him about a year or so, but he has a good job now. Truthfully, Our income is nothing to sneeze at. We make a good living. IMO, it's his mentality / philosophy about money & credit which is the issue. To his credit he has slowly made changes. All money in our household is transparent and he is seing how our spending happens because he's had to work on tracking it while I am recovering. Each of us knows where all paychecks go, we created a budget together (which includes a plan to pay down cc debt) & for the most part we are sticking to it. At this point, there are problems with what I call "flare-ups". By that, I mean sudden desires or wants which are not budgetted for. These flare-ups are usually big ticket technology or home improvement items. They may be triggered by a TV commercial or something he sees someone else with. The current flare up includes

1) the addition to the shed (which I shut down by saying I don't feel comfortable running up more debt to add onto a house / structures on the property which I will not keep if we divorce)
2) the Droid phone (which, THANKS BE TO GOD, never came through because when we got to the store it cost too much...but he did get our son a new cell phone / $29)
and
3) this B-day thing...We budgetted for the B-day party (we do each year) but the presents this year were pricey. Our son is less than 10 years old and we have debts - so there is no reason his B-day gifts should cost $1,000. We did not budget for that. A $100 or even $200 gift card to the video game store or Toys R Us would have been more than adequate.

For awhile, I got caught up in his spending frenzy too with handbags & shoes. I had never done it before and it was exciting. I stopped that quite awhile ago because I realized it was trouble.


I think that what you said here is 100% true. And I agree that paying paper money can make people more aware of what they are spending in most cases. I have seen people go nuts with cash too though

Cash, check, or charge - I think it's important to have a healthy philosophy about money.

Today,

I definitely noticed a pattern which may have very serious consequences for me, my M, and my desire to save my M:

During this morning's commute, my DH was in full share mode re/ the dynamics in his office. It was the same story but with different examples of bad behavior from the new person. In fact, most of our conversations during our commutes have been this way since he began "talking" with me again after the announcement that he wants a divorce.

I listened (as usual) & he finally felt safe admitting out loud that the situation frustrated and annoyed him. He launched into more examples of this person's incompetence and how he won some petty victory where he was proved right & she was proved wrong. He also says that he is "allowing" her to make mistakes. Not telling her things he knows which she may need to know too...It sounds like he's doing it so she can learn a lesson. Note that none of these people are engaged in combat or any life threatening thing. Their work is administrative in nature, so the petty victories involve getting the correct signature or not or maybe something like formatting a document correctly / incorrectly.

This time I tried something different - I tried to inject some perspective into things. I suggested that the situation, while not ideal, may be quite temporary because this person is active duty and occupying a military slot. People in that category transfer in and out all the time. In the < 1 year he's been there, he has experienced 3 different people. He shook his head negatively & said she could stay for as long as 3 years. I responded that with all the negativity and tension in the office she is probably looking to make her next move already. She may sense that she has burned a few bridges and created more than a few enemies especially among the males (according to his accounts) and she may be looking to get out.

I asked him if he had ever had a job which he woke up in the morning and looked forward to going to. I figured that was a no-brainer question (everyone has had a job they liked at least once in their lives, right?). My plan was - once he said "yes" I'd to say that she probably feels the opposite of that with all the tension in the office.

I AM VERY SADDENED BECAUSE: Just as with Dr Harley's "no-brainer" question, my DH shook his head and stated a flat NO.

I was stunned.

I recovered and said "Well, I am sure she feels badly and probably wants to leave." He said that that's just not possible. He said she shows no outward signs of being "bothered" by the bad situation. He said that just yesterday at the end of a closed door argument with the entire office, she ended the meeting with a joke and a smile. So, that means she is not bothered. I asked that no matter what her outward facial expressions, can he imagine that she must be feeling tense and uncomfortable because everyone else in the office is? He said NO.

I gave up on that.

I said that I have the feeling that there will be a blow up in the office - just judging by what he says. I told him that I hoped he would not participate in it because that would be a bad thing. He told me there is no possible way that there will be a blow up in the office. At that point - guess what? I STOPPED LISTENING.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!! I am SO AT THE END OF MY ROPE WITH THIS MAN'S NEGATIVE ATTITUDE.

The bad thing about this is - it forces me to see how his mind works. I feel that, in a conflict, he is unable to think clearly enough to comprehend the other person's POV. He is *&^%-ing NEGATIVE. He is deluded into thinking petty victories will gain him ground.

As I type this, I can see that I am losing respect for him. I am beginning to think that a divorce would not be such a bad thing.

Please help me!

Later on, fix him his favorite beverage, fetch a nice snack, whatever you can to make it feel like coming from a place of caring, and tell him, "I was really surprised this morning when you said you'd never had a job you loved to go to. I was wondering, why is that?" Ask him about why he chose the jobs he's had, does he has any ideal job that he thinks he would like, what does working mean to him, does it hold any personal definition of self, is it just a paycheck...

I would be fascinated by that. What a great opportunity for intimacy.

(and just so you know, I've worked with people who were vicious backstabbers, and I didn't care. I did my job, I wasn't there to make friends, I was there to make money. The VB were fired.)

Chris,

What I hear in your replies is that


you want to get him to change

you want to get him to stop

you want to get him to do differently...

Specifically, in your reply to my last response, I didn't think you heard me...I think you assumed what I was saying and didn't consider, in yourself, how much you're doing what you hate being done to you...

Just what you hate being done to you.

I see it again in this last post...you hated that he was going on and on about work, his issues with this coworker (making her the problem), where you heard he wanted to be right, make her wrong, even if it meant him doing wrong; that you don't experience him meeting your EN for Conversation because he doesn't listen (validate, acknowledge); and you HATE his negative attitude.

And what I see is the same with you...your issue with your H, making him the problem (and you don't see him as bothered by it), that you want to be right, make him admit he's wrong, even if it means you don't act from respect to listen to him (validate, acknowledge), and I see you centered on him, with full focus with a negative attitude.

Then you ask for help...and posters do their best...and you go right back to what he's doing/not doing.

Which is out of your control. What you control is what I see you not seeing...your half. Intimacy is knowing and sharing your stuff...and you cannot do that when your mind is all over his stuff.

From your posts, I do not believe you want intimacy (which makes marriage incredibly painful)...I don't think you see how mind blowing your statement here is...


Your DJs are killing your connection with the man you vowed to NOT disconnect from, in better and worse times, sickness and in health...

All I see you wanting are petty victories, knowing full well your H is in huge pain...he doesn't want this non-intimate, judgmental, harsh marriage.

You really don't respect your H, but then, I don't think you have for years...because you don't act from respect--that he is truly your equal in every way. He is as worthy, whole and complete as you are...and I think if you make it your own goal to think clearly, not react, eliminate your LBs (which also hurt you and others), and to act from respect, then you would finally be able to enforce healthy boundaries and experience healthy respect, love and trust...

beginning with yourself.

You made those vows to yourself. Marriage vows are boundaries we put around ourselves, our behaviors...they don't read "I'm vowing to make sure you always love, honor and obey me, no matter what"...

I know this addiction, Chris. My focus was glued onto my DH's back until it broke...and that may be what it takes for you, Chris. For you to come awake to really hear your H, what he shares, as his stuff, about him...

You have several signs of enmeshment going on, Chris. Embarrassed by your spouses' actions, not your own. Breaking enmeshment is an act of respect and embracing reality. Divorce breaks it, sometimes, in twisted ways...without ownership, it ensures you repeat your choices, again and again, the cumulative pain becoming unbearable--until you finally do.

Do it in a healthy way, please. You're worth it. Your marriage is worth it. You aren't following the four rules of marriage...you want him to do that. You want him to meet your ENs and to eliminate his LBs...to protect your love bank, and to not know who he is today.

That's what I see...and your "no-brainer" statements cut me to the core...if your H sees continuing the marriage with you, the mother of his child, as just more pain and suffering, then Harley's question wasn't a no-brainer, was it?

He can't see himself in love with you again, can't even conceive of it. He can't imagine having a job he loves going to, hasn't experienced it...and he has a spouse who judges him for it, puts him down and feels disgust because of her own judgments...not him. You're proving his worst beliefs true, Chris...that he is unworthy, horrible, awful, defective human being.

I don't believe that's what you really want. I don't believe that of you.

I do believe it's what you're doing, though. Reinforcing his own self-contempt...which reflects your own.

You have a real partner, a teammate, to grow through this with...both of you can help to heal the other...someone has to go first. And it doesn't seem to me you're willing.

Even when you're inspired.

LA

Chris, you read the conversation article, how about exploring some topics to find some that are favorites for both of you?

Yes. I just don't think it's possible right now. DH seems to be interested in talking only about his work situation, home improvement projcts, and new cellphones.

I am drowning.

How about telling him you have a headache, or you feel like you might be getting a headache? I think that's a pretty RH statement to make under the circumstances. If you get a little respite, it might give you a boost. I would ask my H a question about football, like "How 'bout them Dolphins?" and that he would enjoy talking about at length. And I would read the headlines on the internet so I'd have some other ideas of things to bring up, too. I don't think your H is sounds enthusiastic about moaning and groaning about work endlessly, either, maybe it's just a bad habit?

What do you like talking about at length?

LA,

It was hard for me to read your latest post. I felt 100% terrible. Truth: This process is not for whimps.

I have been working on LB and I did not share those instances. I will now. Please check me out: For the past few days I worked on the LB of Selfish Demands, Annoying Habits, & Dishonesty. I started small because I am a novice. I took ownership of not being cognizent of time and took steps to correct that behavior (score!). I negotiated for DH's assistance with something private. I have been cleaning the kitchen every night and I have been preparing meals as well (in my wheelchair). I handled the telephone portions of the B-Day party planning.

Yet & still, I was very frustrated (angry!) when I wrote about this morning's commute. I am angry that I am even in this situation. I am angry that we are at this point. And now, in addition to being angry I also feel sad and hopeless. I am ashamed at some of the thoughts I had but I shared them here. I needeed to vent. I just started MB (13 days) and although I can guess or try to think of some of the ways to use it, I am no expert and my thoughts have not yet been "re-patterned" to follow MB yet. So - yes a vet like you is going to catch me in the red.

Maybe you are right and I haven't respected my DH for years. I don't really know. But these feelings of disgust did nto start until very recently. I want them to be gone. They SCARE me. Is it unreasonable to lose respect for someone who physically abused you? Stop seeing them as a whole and complete human being? I'm going to guess - no, it's not unreasonable. How about someone who "punsihes" you with verbal abuse "for speaking up" to use your phrase? Again, my guess would be - no it's not unreasonable to have negative feelings about such a person. So, I will not argue with you to prove that I am not DJing and not providing the EN of Respect. I will not argue that you are wrong about me not wanting intimacy. But I think I admitted that I am questioning whether I even want to be with my DH, so that's not exactly a surprise to me. I read before that when employing MB philosophy you act (you stop LBing start ENing) and then feelings will follow...intimacy & love will return. On day 13 & beyond, how can I move forward with that? How can I act so that in me better, healthier ways of thinking take less and less effort & in me feelings of wanting intimacy will return?

OK, so here I am. Negative feelings, tendency towards DJ, anger, confusion, and despair. Please help me. I came here for help - not becaue I am perfect and I know how to do MB.

What I have learned here (painfully) at this wonderful place is that I can only control my part in things. So - intellectualy I know that but mentally and emotionally I need to act that and be that. I desperately want to be that.

The most recent conversation was my attempt to control him...get him to change...get him to look at things differently. You put it in my face (thank you) - I used DJ this morning. Acknowledged.

OK LA, please tell me: How do I get that back - the respect for my DH? Again, when employing the MB philosophy you act and then feelings will follow... What does that look like in the case of the conversation this morning? I want to learn sincerely and I need a few real life examples and practice to add to the positive things that I have done in the past 13 days...

Please help.

DJ...

posting for me more than anyone else.


Since this is an obvious weakness of mine I will read and re-read + consider carefully every day until the LB book comes (and maybe after too) and I will try to remain calm. I was in tears a little while ago.

That may be a good idea. I felt frustrated and overwhelmed this morning when I logged into the MB forum and it definitely showed in my post.


I did that too NED I googled his favorite team and we did have a convo about it & the new stadium yesterday afternoon. This afternoon, I may try asking about how "free agency" works because I just saw that the team was about to start the process of interviewing people.

Politics

Science

Science Fiction

Medical breakthroughs

Military action

Chris, hon, the point is not to feel bad about yourself. It's just more perspective to share, another flashlight to help in your information gathering. Like you said, we can look at what a typical person does in such a situation. It is perfectly normal for someone in a situation like this to make everything about their partner, in hopes of controlling that person's behavior, to make them finally stop hurting you. But that's not where the change comes. The change is in getting your own attention, are you enthusiastic about what you are doing in the moment? It's not an all or nothing thing, it's getting clarity in some moments, gathering information, so you get clarity and peace in more and more moments.

If your son was going on an on about a bad day, maybe you would interrupt him and say something like, excuse me but, Do you need a hug? Or whatever you were enthusiastic about doing. Acting without fear. You will get to the point where you are acting without fear around your H, too. You are doing great, you keep "suiting up and showing up "

Thank you.


Yes - I would do exactly that with my son. I am eager to get to the point of knowing what to do / say when this happens with DH and and also having the good stuff come with greater and greater ease.

Chris...two things...more tomorrow, 'k?


Which is why I know you are NOT a wimp.

And neither is your H. He's still there, with you, Chris. He didn't say "I want a divorce!" and move out right then...and he could have. He can right now. Recognize every single day that he is choosing NOT to do that. Nor are you.

Not for wimps. You are earnest, you can take what I see...even when you vent. Because I don't see you as radically honest...not yet. Venting may be what you do to come close to being radically honest with yourself...and you'll spill it here and not take the next step of distilling a couple of sentences from it and telling (sharing) with your DH.

I think you believe you lie to him by omission because you fear his response...which means you don't hold yourself to your own boundaries...and if you did, you would not fear his response...nor yours. Me showing you the lies doesn't mean you're an awful person, partner...means you're lying right now. And you said you're working on that, so my goal is to help, not to shame.

I believe we stop looking at the source of our choices when we repeat to ourselves our old reasons for old reactions/justifications in choices we make today. "I can't because he won't" may be something you've taught your brain to believe. It's not true. "I choose not to because I am trying to control his response." Doing and not doing can be acts of control. You know they are about manipulation, though, when you're focused on controlling the other person's actions...

So stop believing in the old way. Ask yourself for radical honesty about your own choices...discover yourself again today, right where you are, as you are. To know, not to bash.

And you'll feel bashed, berated, put down...because when your focus is on your spouse's stuff, you are literally abandoning, rejecting and putting yourself down...hurts like heck. I'm asking you to stop doing that. To come home, where you are, and in seeing yourself new today, choosing differently, you will also see others new, too.

Which is reality.

We're going to feel terrible when we realize we have done terrible things, thought terrible thoughts (they do become our actions)...and the result is feeling terrible.

And it passes, 'k? It's healthy...that your signals to yourself that "This isn't what I want! I don't want to react this way."

Healthy shame...not the toxic kind.


She says it so well...really hear this..."It is perfectly normal" for you "to make everything about their partner, in hopes of controlling" their partner "to make them finally stop hurting you."

All abusers believe that they are justified in doing whatever it takes to get the other person to stop hurting them.

Think about that when you are all over H's stuff, 'k? What he does and how hard you try to get him to stop hurting you.

LA

Looking forward to reading more tomorrow.

Well then...

Got in the car and immediately DH turned the radio down and began speaking about the person @ his office. When he paused to take a breath, I quickly asked about free agency. He looked right at me and said "I want to talk about work and YOU want to talk about football?!" Oops! My bad... Where's the smiley for rolling on the floor laughing? Yes - I have to laugh at that. (Sorry LA)

He explained free agency to me and answered all the folllow up qustions I asked on the subject, and then went right back into the topic of his office. (No dice of the distraction action CW ) I responeded mostly with thoughtful nods & "I understand" statements. I asked him what he planned to do. He said he was planning on moving into another job very soon. I responded supportively.

The he asked me about how my day went. I decided to share about a dimwit or three I am dealing with @ work. Again, main issues - not too much detail. Wrapped it up with my plan of action. I felt like he actually listened.

Since I responded supportively and focused on asking him folow up questions about his observations + asked him what he planned to do about his situation instead of trying to get him to think of it another way, I didn't actually feel any anger / frustration during the conversation. (Wow!)

Was that a better way to handle it right LA (and everyone)? Is that how it was supposed to work & feel? If so, (I mean - if I got it right) I am eager to try repeating this with all sorts of things- big and small.

Well Chris, I think it's about finding what you two are enthusiastic about, and since you both are enjoying this, it sounds great

NED, Thanks for your response.

I am thinking that not feeling anger & frustration is way different than "enjoyment"...Plus I am not quite enthusiastic about the subject of problems @ work or jerkity jerks @ work.

Truthfully, I'm shaky about this and I was hoping for more specific guidance about how to work it.

How about telling him, "I don't want to listen to your problems with the folks at work, I'm still recovering from surgery and my nerves are shot. Let's talk about something that we both like talking about." But maybe the time to speak up isn't when you're trapped in a car with him, you are the best judge of your own safety.