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Originally Posted by redhat
lostnscared,

This is my take on snooping in M. You snoop on WW but not your W. Right now you might have to snoop until certain point when WW become W. You decide when.

I don't snoop in my current M. We use MB from the get go. We share all of our online access and everything else, nothing hidden and we even have familymap for everyone cellphones. ... snooping is dishonesty/disrespect in M. If I snoop it means my M is a lie. I would be committing dishonesty and disrespectful judgment. M to me is one mind, body, and soul ... become one.

-rh-

Regardless of what your "take" is on snooping, redhat, did you happen to read Dr. Harley's take? He certainly doesn't believe that snooping in marriage is dishonesty or a disrespectful judgment. Since the Marriage Builders program is his, I tend to believe what he says carries the most weight, wouldn't you agree?

Here is what he says:

Originally Posted by Dr. Willard Harley
I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?

Originally Posted by Dr. Willard Harley
There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.

lostnscared, I hope you will heed Dr. Harley's words. He is the founder of Marriage Builders, and has over 35 years experience as a clinical psychologist.

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Of course snooping is not dishonest. It is dishonest to lie and cheat. It is not "dishonest" to catch someone lying and cheating. A married person has a right to know each and every thing their spouse is doing behind his back.

Snooping is not a "disrespectful judgment" in any sense of the word. In fact, Dr Harley himself recommends snooping..


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Of course snooping is not dishonest. It is dishonest to lie and cheat. It is not "dishonest" to catch someone lying and cheating. A married person has a right to know each and every thing their spouse is doing behind his back.

Snooping is not a "disrespectful judgment" in any sense of the word. In fact, Dr Harley himself recommends snooping..

And another thing...I'm willing to state that NOT snooping is short-sighted and lazy. It's easy to trust our spouse. All that requires is emotion. It's not as easy to trust, yet verify. That requires some effort. And yet that's what we should have been doing all along! Our M's in may cases get less maintenance and care than our cars do. Why?

Early into our R, I told DH, with some resentment, that he had 'sentenced me to a life of being a detective.' Well, duh! doh2 It's what I should have been doing all along, instead of indulging in complacency!

And my apologies for any weird spelling errors today - my reply screen is doing that funky, bouncing-around thing again. sigh


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Originally Posted by lostnscared
Been through alot in our 10 year marriage. Wife seems to wander every couple years or so. Best man at a wedding, old ex she met at a funeral. Facebook has been the killer, hid the account from me until i installed a keylogger on my comp. Read all the msg's to the ex, nothing super bad but it def shouldnt be in a healthy marriage. Talk of nude pics, wild sex that sort of stuff. We worked through that the last few weeks but i cant stop snooping

This poster would be IRRESPONSIBLE to stop snooping in view of a history as described in his first post. IRRESPONSIBLE. As Dr Harley has suggested in such cases, this WW should NEVER KNOW about his snooping tactics and he should snoop indefinitely.


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Snooping on spouse is a dishonesty and it is allowed under condition stated on your own quote from him.

Quote
If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.

He did not say "must" like Mel and you had suggested. Those are personal choices where cookie cutters won't work.

I have my own take, can I ?. This is a discussion board. If I can't or not allowed, I would gladly leave.

I never said lostnscared shouldn't snoop on WW, he should and as long as he felt A is going on and still can't trust WW. I encouraged him to take a break and resume later. Let his WW earn his trust.

At the end lostnscared has to answer ... if WW never earned his trust, is this kind of M he want to keep ?.

Rant: This board has changed a lot.

-rh-


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Originally Posted by redhat
Snooping on spouse is a dishonesty and it is allowed under condition stated on your own quote from him.

RH, no it is not "dishonest" and Dr Harley does not say that anywhere. Nor is it a "disrespectful judgement" as you implied. Redhat, we showed Dr Harley's own quotes and no where does he call snooping a "lovebuster" as you did.

If you want to give board members such erroneous information, chances are you are going to get corrected by other posters who have actually read Dr Harley's books and articles. We are here to learn about Marriage Builders after all.

And yes, the board has changed alot. THANK GOD. More people today know about Marriage Builders. People actually teach Marriage Builders instead of the personal opinion du jour. Please note Dr. Harley�s mission statement at the top of each page:

Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts.


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Originally Posted by redhat
Snooping on spouse is a dishonesty and it is allowed under condition stated on your own quote from him.

Quote
If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.

He did not say "must" like Mel and you had suggested. Those are personal choices where cookie cutters won't work.

I have my own take, can I ?. This is a discussion board. If I can't or not allowed, I would gladly leave.

I never said lostnscared shouldn't snoop on WW, he should and as long as he felt A is going on and still can't trust WW. I encouraged him to take a break and resume later. Let his WW earn his trust.

At the end lostnscared has to answer ... if WW never earned his trust, is this kind of M he want to keep ?.

Rant: This board has changed a lot.

-rh-

Um, redhat, lostnscared's wife HAS been found guilty of infidelity in the past - she has had multiple affairs - Please note what lostnscared said:

Originally Posted by lostnscared
Been through alot in our 10 year marriage. Wife seems to wander every couple years or so.

And what does Dr. Harley say when a spouse has been found guilty of infidelity?

Originally Posted by Dr. Willard Harley
If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.

The implication of that being that there WILL and SHOULD be snooping methods in place.

Now, is there something specifically about Dr. Harley's words that you are having trouble understanding? I'd be happy to help you. smile

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Would it sound nicer, then, to call this act of marital protection something else, redhat? Would that make it more palatable for you? Verification vs. snooping, perhaps? Does that sound better? But remember, it's the same thing. It is not dishonest. My H knows I frequently check his work email and his voice mails - he welcomes that because he knows it's confirmation of his fidelity. I welcome his scrutiny. We are one. So it doesn't matter.
Here's my epiphany, and I'll gladly go 'round with anyone who disagrees with it:
There should NEVER be an avenue for a spouse to potentially lead a double life. Two people became one the day they got married. Those aren't just pretty words and they aren't sexual. They are factual. Yet I (and all the other BS's on here) sat back and gave their spouse carte blanche to have a life that was not open to them - with FB, with private email addresses, with password-protected cell phones, with private schedules. What a recipe for disaster! I'd throw in the "duh" icon but I'm having technical trouble typing these responses as it is today, darn it.

Two became ONE. How did we miss the importance of this, the thing that happened the day we married? There should be NOTHING that one spouse knows about and the other one isn't privvy to! Nothing!

Unless, of course, it's a birthday surprise...


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Originally Posted by MrsWondering
Now, is there something specifically about Dr. Harley's words that you are having trouble understanding? I'd be happy to help you. smile

Mrs. W


No thanks. I don't need preachers to interpret the Bible when I could get the answer directly wink. I could ask him directly on MB weekend forum or email him.

-rh-


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Or read and refer to what he has already written for public consumption, as this poster has:

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
"So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.

One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.

I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?
Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Or read and refer to what he has already written for public consumption, as this poster has:

You have missed the point as the person post to me too. That is on Coping with infidelity and how A should end. Snoop all you can w/ WW. I absolutely agree on this. There is nothing on my thread states otherwise.

The issue here "Should we have to snoop forever in M ?" Mrs.W & others said absolutely. dr. Harley quoted as "encourage". I got 2x4 because it as well as calling snoop is dishonest in M. I will clear it on my own with the higher up.

I don't want to keep this thread a way from lostnscared.

-rh-


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Originally Posted by redhat
You have missed the point as the person post to me too. That is on Coping with infidelity and how A should end. Snoop all you can w/ WW. I absolutely agree on this. There is nothing on my thread states otherwise.

No, Dr Harley does not say just with "WW," he says with all spouses. Read the quote. Dr Harley DOES encourage snooping in ALL marriages � he does not limit it to marriages where there has been adultery:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?
here

And again here:

Quote
There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.

Originally Posted by redhat
I don't snoop in my current M. We use MB from the get go. We share all of our online access and everything else, nothing hidden and we even have familymap for everyone cellphones. ... snooping is dishonesty/disrespect in M. If I snoop it means my M is a lie. I would be committing dishonesty and disrespectful judgment.

Nowhere does Dr Harley say that snooping is dishonesty or a �disrespectful judgment.� It most certainly is not.


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My 2 cents mean very little in this discussion at this point but here we go. I dont want to snoop, anytime i snoop i feel guilty because at the point im driven to snoop i feel insecure. Are those insecurities in me or from her. If they're from me, even if its because of her past actions i shouldn't hold that against her. I'm not sure how you guys are prior to a snoop but its almost like i expect to find something, this will be the big one. Of all the times i've snooped in 10 years, and trust me its been alot i've found something unnerving like 3 times. I cant count the number of needless fights over something trivial i've found that my mind has made out to be the smoking gun. I can guarantee with 100% certainty that is a huge LB in my marriage. So i guess my point being, which im not even sure i remember where i was going, at what point does snooping become an unhealthy habit?

No matter how good of a job you think your doing the OS, if they are that dedicated to leading a second life, can be 5 steps ahead of you with hidden accounts, secret cell phones. Lol so i rambled and probably just confused a bunch of ppl, it theres anything im bad at its putting my thoughts into text.

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Are those insecurities in me or from her. If they're from me, even if its because of her past actions i shouldn't hold that against her.

That is ridiculous, ls. What is not in the past is your TRUST of her. You should not trust her, that would be insane. She has proven time and time again that she is not trustworthy so the only thing you would achieve by not snooping is leaving your self wide open and unprotected. What has she ever done to gain your trust again? Trust is not an entitlement, it has to be earned.

LS, the problem is not you and its not snooping, it is that you have a sneaky, dangerous serial cheater wife who harms you behind your back. The only time that snooping is a lovebuster is if you are snooping on someone who has something to hide. It would never be a lovebuster to a person otherwise. For example, if my H were snooping on me, I would do my best to make sure I was as transparent as possible and was not doing anything to make him uneasy. That is what a normal spouse does. Only someone who has something to hide gets upset when you snoop.

A spouse who gets upset at snooping will also try to blame her anger ON HER SPOUSE to deflect from herself. It is a game called gaslighting. Your insecurity is a rational reaction to a spouse who has ABUSED you in the past. She has had numerous affairs, so your instincts telling you to snoop are very rational.

Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
"So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.

One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.

I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?�


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by lostnscared
My 2 cents mean very little in this discussion at this point but here we go. I dont want to snoop, anytime i snoop i feel guilty because at the point im driven to snoop i feel insecure. Are those insecurities in me or from her. If they're from me, even if its because of her past actions i shouldn't hold that against her. I'm not sure how you guys are prior to a snoop but its almost like i expect to find something, this will be the big one. Of all the times i've snooped in 10 years, and trust me its been alot i've found something unnerving like 3 times. I cant count the number of needless fights over something trivial i've found that my mind has made out to be the smoking gun. I can guarantee with 100% certainty that is a huge LB in my marriage. So i guess my point being, which im not even sure i remember where i was going, at what point does snooping become an unhealthy habit?

No matter how good of a job you think your doing the OS, if they are that dedicated to leading a second life, can be 5 steps ahead of you with hidden accounts, secret cell phones. Lol so i rambled and probably just confused a bunch of ppl, it theres anything im bad at its putting my thoughts into text.

Dear, dear lostnscared...

It isn't your snooping that is unhealthy - it's the fact that you are living with someone who refuses to be open and honest that is unhealthy - In other words, SHE is the unhealthy one!

As you've been told, people who have nothing to hide, hide nothing...It is UNHEALTHY to have SECRECY in a marriage, and THAT is what your wife wants and tries to maintain. The problem here is that your wife doesn't WANT you to snoop - WHY? Because she has things to hide!

Married couples are to live lives of transparency - There is NOTHING that is none of my husband's business and vice versa - We are ONE, and therefore are open books to each other - that is how it is supposed to be.

We both have all of each other's passwords - our accounts are linked - so we share the same password as a matter of fact. We live our lives as though the other is watching constantly - and we very well could be - checks and balances you know. Each of us desires accountability to the other - it keeps our marriage - something we value greatly - SAFE...

Unless and until your wife gets onboard with that mindset, I'm sorry to tell you that you are NOT safe.

Mrs. W



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Originally Posted by lostnscared
. I cant count the number of needless fights over something trivial i've found that my mind has made out to be the smoking gun.

She is probably very good at beating you down and manipulating you into silence. Why else would a fight ensue over something "trivial?" If I found something on my husband's computer that made me suspicious, it would never lead to a fight. Rather, he would explain it.

I suspect your wife has been gaslighting you so long that you no longer have any memory of normal. You are now wondering if YOU are the messed up one, when it is SHE who is messed up.


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ls, I have never strayed. My H has total access to EVERY facet of my life. I don't care - I have nothing to hide. And he always should have! Protection of your M means you should have oversight of the other half of your SELF. Why would you accept less access to half of your SELF? You married and became one!


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I understand what your all saying but i dont want to snoop anymore, its physically and emotionally exhausting. I still have the keylogger on the comp, shes been truthful before ive asked who she talked to and what about. I seriously dont want to live this life of OMG she went to get a shower i gotta check her phone. I've decided that shes got one last chance and im gonna do my best to allow her to prove she means it or doesnt. No matter what im gonna find out whats goin on whether its today or 5 months later. If she cant be honest from here on out then she can take a leave of absence.

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Originally Posted by lostnscared
I understand what your all saying but i dont want to snoop anymore, its physically and emotionally exhausting. I still have the keylogger on the comp, shes been truthful before ive asked who she talked to and what about. I seriously dont want to live this life of OMG she went to get a shower i gotta check her phone. I've decided that shes got one last chance and im gonna do my best to allow her to prove she means it or doesnt. No matter what im gonna find out whats goin on whether its today or 5 months later. If she cant be honest from here on out then she can take a leave of absence.

You're taking the easy way out.Good luck with that.


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Have you ever verified in front of her?

Sure can be exhausting, emotionally and physically. Can be like an obsession, too. If you've been doing it over ten years, hiding your snooping, then part of what you're feeling is an adrenaline release...which can get you into a loop of surge and exhaustion.

I remember this well...and what I did was switch to verifying in front of my WH, who then became a FWH. I would own my triggers...my gut feeling from something he said or body language/facial expression. I would say "I'm checking your phone" and then APPRECIATE him standing or sitting there as I did.

I did it in the car, the kitchen...and over time, as NC was kept in place, I tapered off...set a schedule of doing so once a month...and would hold myself to it whether I felt the gut feeling or not.

In this way, we became a team for our boundaries...and turns out, three years later, he told him how much it helped him to not break NC...because we did this...

Now it's almost six years later...I recently checked his cellphone records online because of a niggling feeling. Came up clean. Found out, instead of a person, it was a growing resentment in him sending up the flag. That's catching part of the formula for an affair way early.

How did your W amend and repair the damage from her EAs to you, herself and The Marriage? Did she put in extraordinary precautions, ask you to help her keep new boundaries, so that she doesn't repeat and repeat? Maybe what you really want now is for her to do the work she hasn't...daily apologies...cutting off Facebook in totality...as a consequence?

Formulate what you really need from her to make your marriage affair-proof, the road to redemption and ask for it. That's your part.

LA

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