LA,

I wish you hadn't waited. Your posts are so helpful to me - even when (and especially when) they make me angry. I guess that's 2 X 4 ing right?


Yes, I think there is a tendency in me (which was there ong before we married) to assume the worst intentions of certain people in my life. And you are right - most of the pain, anger, and fear lies in the assumptions & not in the true connections. This is especially true with my DH. So, me learning to be emotionally honest is key for my relationship with him. Assuming the worst intentions means that when you interact with the person, you are reacting to what you think their intentions are rather than with the person as they truly are.

For me, the sad thing is more than a few of those people in my life really did have the worst intentions. Early on, I had a tendency towads trusting (and I also ignored my instincts so as not to "judge" people too harshly without cause) and consequently I trusted a few people I shouldn't have trusted (We've all been there...) After a few times being hurt, I began to question my ability to discern people's intentions and their character. Today, I made a committment to not ignore my instincts, but I still have the lingering uncertainty about my ability to discern the trustworthy folks from the non-trustworthy folks.


Can you tell me any more about this, since you've been there?

Thinking,

A million thanks for your reply. This is a very interesting perspective and very well laid out too. Here's what stood out for me:

+Awareness
+Acceptance
+Action



In my experience, solutions based on the wrong motivation usually can't be sustained or maintained.


Wow -The way you put this really hit home for me, Thinking. I tried acceptance without awareness. I described that earlier in this thread as the "pretend it didn't happen" method and the "it wasn't that big of a deal method." And, here I stand years later back to square one...

This is something Melody shared ...a quote from Dr. H



For everyone who has an opinion about whether IC can help me with the issues I described before:

In my mind, meshing Thinking's thoughts (Awareness, Acceptance, and Action) and Dr H's & Melody's points (focusing on the past keeps your eyes off of the future) together is very helpful for me in clarifying my goals for IC: My goal is to "make the future sensational", as Dr. H termed it and "Action", as Thinking termed it. I can practice "Action" each and every day; however, the process needs to involve Awareness and Acceptance to be complete. During IC my therapist and I should not be spending most of the time thinking and talking about the past. We should only spend enough time on it for me to gain "Acceptance" and "Awareness" and then we need to move on to the primary focus & the end goal...which is the future and making the practiced behavioral changes into permanent behavioral changes.

Does that make sense?

The past and understanding it is only useful for explaining our irrational reaction to current situations, IMO.

I started working out. I was getting in better shape than I had been in for quite some years. I was doing it in response to having had my entire world torn from under my feet and using that as motivation to make myself better, part of which was getting in better shape.

Then I got sick and couldn't work out at all for over 4 months. In fact, for part of that time I was pretty much confined to doing almost nothing very strenuous much beyond answering the telephone. My first surgery caused pain, fear, and a bunch of negative emotions but also gave me hope and sort of felt like I had another shot at life since the infection it stopped seemed to be killing me in small increments that appeared to be exponentially larger each day.

Then I had a second surgery, designed to help fix the damage done by the first one. While the first helped me and saved my life, it left an open hole through my skin that left alone would never have really been able to heal before some secondary infection got in. So the second surgery was supposed to make me well. After months of laying around, I saw rapid progress and very soon was able to take a full shower for the first time in four months and was told by the doctor that I could start working out again.

We never really identified the source of the original infection and since just about everyone else who ever had it had been blown up or shot or had some other serious trauma both physical and mental, mine was pretty much an anomaly.

Today I struggle with getting back into shape. The surgeries left me with a nerve near the surface that sometimes gives me interesting little jolts not unlike an electric shock. In order to help facilitate healing of the skin from the graft, I was instructed to eat a real breakfast with plenty of protein (egg with bacon or sausage type stuff) for a few months and so I was eating more and exercising less. For some reason this second "healing" surgery took a lot more out of me physically than the first emergency one.

Still not knowing how or why I got the infection in the first place (it was an acinetobacter which doesn't happen in healthy people according to the prevailing consensus) makes avoiding the same physical circumstances an impossibility, and what ever gave it to me, I sure don't want to do that again...

But not knowing where the infection originated or what caused me to get an infection from something that almost everyone on the planet has on their skin while a mystery does not prevent me from living my life and except for the scars and that little shock every now and then it is all simply an experience I don't wish to relive even though many good things came from that event including my increased activity on the website.

The fact that I had to stop working out and that my strength just never seemed to return after the second surgery could indicate that I will never be able to work out as intensely as I did before I got sick or it might just indicate that the one serious motivation I had back then no longer exists, that being the fear of losing my wife of over 30 years, but unless I actively begin working out and changing my actions, I will never get back to where I was because without the change in action I will not be doing what will lead to my getting into shape.

Understanding how I got the infection does not change doing what needs to be done and examining it going forward can only keep me from focusing on what I need to do now. Knowing that infections of any kind can get into any opening in the skin can help me to keep my skin healthier going forward, but since this bacteria is so common everywhere (it breaks down aromatics in the soil and turns them into minerals that plants can reuse) avoiding it is not really possible and most healthy people can never get the infection since their bodies own system prevents them from being infected. (I was "special")

My point is, if I want to accomplish much of anything going forward, it will be what I do going forward that will matter many times more than what might have happened to me in the past. All of the things I observed about my illness and surgeries and physical condition after the surgeries are all just observations. NONE of them explain not getting on the treadmill this morning. NONE of them explain how I got the infection. None of them will make me a better person for the rest of my life. None of them will help me to improve my life in any way and continuing to look for answers to why this or how that occurred can only prevent me from moving forward with the actions that I must take if I plan to get into better shape, live a life I hope to achieve...

What happened to me in the past tells me only what happened and even if I understand how that has modified my thinking and feelings today cannot make going to work easier since another by product of all of my trials was that I now see very little relevance in my job beyond a paycheck that seems to dwindle more each week.

Yet I still need to go to work today because one of my goals right now is keeping my house, eating, providing for retirement and having Internet service so I can hang out here. So off I go to get ready for work whether I ever understand how I got my skin infection and no matter what hole I have to fasten my belt in today.

Knowing what happened in the past and understanding how that has made me act a certain way now still does not keep me from having to actually change my own actions now in order to accomplish my stated goals.

From a biblical perspective...When the woman caught in adultery was brought to Jesus, the law was clear that anyone found committing adultery was to be stoned to death. (Why didn't they bring the man caught with her, BTW?)

When Jesus refused to condemn her, though He was the author of the very law they sought to enforce it changed the rules a bit, at least as far as what the men accusing her were concerned. Yet Jesus then told her to go and stop her sin going forward, which accomplished the purpose of the law without invoking the understanding of why she had broken the law to begin with. Jesus did not focus on her childhood and excuse her behavior based on past life experience. He did not examine what moral failings might have come from being abused and not having a good role model in her life as she grew up. He did not explain why the law didn't apply to her right then because of some past trauma in her life.

Yet he did not carry out the punishment clearly provided for by the law. Instead He told her to live her life a different way from then on. He focused entirely on her actions going forward and spent little to no time at all understanding how she found herself sprawled at His feet with an angry mob shouting that her life should be ended because the law of God demanded it.

We are not sinners because of past sins...

We sin now and did so in the past because we are sinners.

Go and sin no more. This was Jesus solution to the problems of the past.

No matter what reasons we might have had for doing it wrong in the past, until we begin doing it right we are still doing the wrong things. We will forever do the wrong things until we begin to do the right things and why we did them the wrong way before we learned what was right cannot change that fact. Only acting the right way will result in acting the right way.

Why we didn't before does not change that at all. What our motivation for doing the right things now might be doesn't change what is the right thing to do and understanding our motivation for doing it wrong yesterday does not matter to what is right now and going forward.

MB works because it stops examining what is wrong with a marriage and starts DOING what makes a marriage work. Rather than focusing on what makes marriages fail, MB concentrates on DOING the things that make them last. WHY someone had AOs or made SDs or DJs has nothing to do with stopping those things going forward. (BTW, we do these things because they are instincts and not learned behavior at all so we didn't get these three from our Mommy or Daddy by past actions, we got them from Mom and Dad through our genes.)

Why I was a fool yesterday can only tell me why I was acting foolish yesterday. It will be what I do today that will define me as a fool today, not what I did yesterday or when I was 12 and certainly not what someone else did when I was 12.

For those that want the learning to fish version or the correcting arm motion in pitching a baseball, just ask.

Mark

Mark, I understood your first analogy; the cause of the infection doesn't really matter because the infection was identified & treated properly... IMO The mind works a bit differently.

You may have also missed this unless you have read my story and this thread in particular: In this thread I am discussing individual counseling for myself to address personal issues (issues inside of myself) which serve to interfere with me expressing certain emotions. This affects many relationships I have - not just my relationship with my husband. At the same time, I am currently using MB to actively work on my marriage because I believe in the bahvior based model of marriage coaching and I believe that rehashing past wrongs in a marriage is nto a successful strategy for building a better marriage in the future.

Does that clarify things?

ETA: Your thread about managing memories inspired me to seek out an individual counselor to help me with that. Is your post an argument against IC for me? Just curious: Did you read the entire thread before you posted your response?

TTT, Step 4 is NOT about spending endless months and years in IC examining our past. It is a one time LIST of those we have harmed along with an admission of our crimes. We make amends and move on. We don�t waller in the past. This is very different from reliving your childhood trauma. That is NOT DONE in the steps anywhere.

We do this all the time in AA and it is not done with a counselor but with our sponsor or a pastor. It is very safe. Most ppl in AA have profoundly dysfunctional histories. That is the rule rather than the exception. In fact, I sponsor an INDEPENDENT COUNSELOR and she did her Step 5 with me. It takes no professional expertise to listen to someone's Step 4.

We don�t spend time examining our past, we make a list of all persons we have harmed and become willing to make amends to them. That is very different from spending months and years examining ones past. AA does not advocate that. In fact, if you try to talk about your childhood, etc in an AA, they will tell you to shut up. They don�t want to hear that crap.

I would just point out that Dr Harley is right when he says dredging up the past is a needless diversion that wastes valuable time that could be focused on changing the PRESENT. One does not need to resolve childhood problems to make the present GREAT. That is a good way to keep people coming back to counseling for years, but it doesn�t help them a bit.

Bingo!

TTT, I think another way to explain the difference between the difference between Step 4 and examining the past in IC is to explain that Step 4 is a confession of one�s crimes. Its purpose is to bring about repentance by honestly admitting our crimes. Its purpose is not to examine the past, but to right our wrongs with the first step being confession. That is the one of the necessary steps towards redemption. Its purpose is to REDEEM, not to waller in the past on a futile hunt for solutions.

It is like the bank robber who confesses his crimes. He is not confessing for the purpose of talking about his past, but for the purpose of righting that wrong.

And I have shut the door on my criminal past and my childhood. There is no need whatsoever to live in the past, I live in the present. That is not �extreme� at all.

And guess what? A *good* counselor will do the same thing for you individually. I went to a fantastic counselor for 2 years to deal with depression. Sure, we dug a little into the past, but only as a means to understand the role of my prior experiences in shaping my current emotional reactions. We spent more time on changing patterns, and developing tools so that I could make my future different from my past. And it worked, because I was willing to change, and did the work to change.

Anyone that finds themselves continously rehashing the past and talking about their feelings until they are blue in the face, needs to clearly state their disatisfaction with the counselor and ask for a change in direction. Or get a new counselor. They are not all out to get your money by convincing you to stare at your navel for an hour a week.

But IMHO, to state that it's always a waste of time is an over-generalization. Some of us have issues for which professional direction (for a period of time) is very helpful.

Martes

I think its a very accurate generalization. Those that are helped are the exception, not the rule. The typical counselor focuses on feelings about the PAST, which keeps people distracted from the present.

I only have a few minutes before I dash off to a meeting, and I haven't been able to read all the responses thoroughly. But I wanted to chime in a couple of things.

My H has never hit me, but his AO's got pretty bad in the verbal abuse department, and I closed down much as you have described. My O&H with him was non-existent because I was scared of triggering an AO. I for YEARS tiptoed around my home like there were eggshells everywhere.

It ended when I was on the verge of a full-on nervous breakdown and started IC. I determined I couldn't, WOULDN'T, live that way anymore. I would say my truth, and if he couldn't deal with it, and deal with it WITHOUT AO's, he could pack up and leave until he could. I was prepared for D rather than continue to live in fear. My physical health was trashed, my daughter's physical and mental health was trashed. I *had* to make a change.

I started talking about how I felt, and expressing that I expected him to discuss things with me calmly and treat me with resepect. My IC helped me with my own ways of expressing things that weren't the healthiest, I learned to use "I" statements and not express the DJ's I was thinking (though she didn't know that term) so it would be a more constructive conversation.

I was lucky - H also started IC and responded to everything I was doing and things rapidly improved. I pulled my D filing.

But it all came down to my realizing that curling up in a shell and retreating was the WORST thing I could do for my situation, and I'd rather be alone than living in fear, and learned to speak out.

Now, on the subject of IC's... there are good ones and bad ones, and there are IC schools of thought that live in the past and ones that live in the present and focus on the now. My personal opinion is that the school of thought that is most consistent with living in the now and not dwelling in the past is called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and the "bible" of that is "The Feeling Good Handbook" by Dr. David Burns. I won't see a therapist that doesn't work from that philosophy. I don't need Freudian analysis of my childhood, I need tools to get through today healthily. That's what CBT is. Now, some people here have had bad experiences with CBT as well, but my experience and that of my H has been nothing short of miraculous.

In short, if you need IC, don't stop until you find the RIGHT therapist and the RIGHT therapy philosophy. Lots of people don't realize that not all therapy is alike.

Hope some of this helps!

But if I specifically request what I need from my counselor for THIS type of treatment


and they provide it, it works doesn't it?

(That bolded portion is what I am after)


I'm going to be blunt here:

The suggestion that I NOT work with a counselor is odd to me given the fact that I tried for years on my own to manage certain difficulties inside of myself and was not successful.

I am reading Love Busters &, although Dr H warns against using therapy to perpetualy examine your past, at the end of several sections Dr H says "seek the help of a professional if you have difficulty with this." This tells me that Dr. H is stating to avoid a certain / specific pitfall in individal therapy, not that IC itself is a waste of time. I have noted the pitfall and I have stated that I will ask my therapist to deliberately avoid it and focus on my specific goals.

BUT

Let's say I follow the advice to not see a professional, what's next? Do I just suddenly get better on my own?

Please do not turn this thread into a battle over whether IC works or not. Think about what is being said here & why I started this thread. I asked for HELP. Please help me by providing a suggestion which goes along with the advice you are giving if your advice is to NOT seek professional help with my internal issues.

AC, this is GREAT feedback and I would agree 100%. The programs that are really effective, ie: AA, Alanon, Marriage Builders, are behaviorally based rather than FEELING BASED. They focus on changing current behaviors and stay out of the past.

Now, if more counselors would catch onto this, people would be much better off.

Thanks AC - that was very helpful.

Melody,

I undestand your points very clearly.

My final decision on this is: I am going to IC starting next Tuesday and I am going to be quite clear as to what my goals are.

Thank you Melody for the warning about the danger of focusing too much on the past. I am definitely on the look out for it.

Is there anything else you can add to this thread as far as the help that I requested?

Have you given any thought to coaching with Steve Harley? He is really very good at bringing reluctant spouses on board. I think your H needs a shot of hope and Steve might be able to provide that. I don't get the sense that your H is really DONE, Chris. He sounds to me like someone who is on the fence and very torn. What he needs to hear and see is a logical plan of action, which is something Steve could give him.

Melody,

You haven't read my story or at least some of the responses in this thread because if you had, you wouldn't be asking me if I have "given coaching with Steve Harvey any thought", and you know what - You & I have been here before Melody - very recently.

Again, thanks for taking the time you were able to take in responding.

This is probably the biggest difference between AA and Alanon. For those of us in "the other room" the focus IS all on me, not on other people. My sponsor (who is very well versed in both rooms) has said that in AA, the message is "It's not all about me." In Alanon, just the opposite. "It IS all about me." That's because unrecovered co-alcoholics' disease is putting the focus on everyone else. Same disease, different focus.

And making a list and making amends is not step 4. That's later down the road at steps 8 and 9. Before we are able to make that list, we need to know our good bad and ugly as much as God reveals at step 4. Before we can take action of making a list and making amends, we must BECOME READY (step 6 . . . it's a whole step!), and we must ASK GOD to remove our shortcomings. We don't change ourselves, God changes us, in his time, if we willingly surrender to the discipline of the steps.

In alanon, step 4 is not an admission of my crimes. That's certainly part of it. But it is also an inventory of my good qualities and an examination of my motivations (unerstanding the exact nature of my wrongs). Many an alanon will avoid step 4 because they believe that it is simply a list of all the wrong things I've done. Even at step 8, making the list, we are told to put ourselves at the top of that list. We have harmed ourselves by our sick thinking.

I don't want to take focus off Chris's issue, and she's not even in the rooms. Just want to clarify for her (and others) that there is a different focus for the 12 steps depending on how the disease affects me.

Thanks for the reminder. I remember you saying this now. So, what does Steve say about getting him on the phone?

We have been "where?"

TTT, the point is that Step 4 is a "searching and fearless moral inventory," not an examination of our childhood or our past traumas. It is a list of shortcomings [crimes] and assets. That is VERY DIFFERENT from going to counseling for years and navel gazing about the past. This is all part of the redemptive process found in steps 4 through 10.

The steps are ACTION steps, and not feeling based motions akin to counseling. It would be a huge mistake to confuse the two.

In my experience, solutions based on the wrong motivation can kill. Literally as well as figuratively.

Doing the right thing for the wrong reason makes it wrong.

Go back to the story of the woman caught in adultry. Apparently, public shaming and stoning was "the right thing" according to the law. The scribes and pharisees were doing "the right thing." But they were doing it for the wrong reason . . . to point the finger at someone else so that they could make themselves feel better. Go read that story in John's gospel and you'll see that it was the elders who leave first when Jesus says that the one without sin should cast the first stone! Jesus didn't condemn the woman. He probably wouldn't have condemned the scribes and pharisees for their sins either, if they'd stayed. As it was, they never gave him a chance. They left and condemned themselves.